Atlantis Found

[Bradius]

For those that played Poseidon, I thought I might share this link. Scientists think they have found Atlantis in Spain. BTW, this is from BBC, not your ususal tabloid.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/sci/tech/3766863.stm
:cool:

[Keith]

A intriguing find. Whether it is true or not, only time will tell. As for the Atlanteans being the "Sea People", other more plausable theories are that they were in fact a confederation of displaced populations from Asia Minor. Most Sea People attack seemed to occur between 1200 BCE and 1100 BCE. They were have been attributed to the the Denen, Lukka and Sherden. Some Lukka and Sherden even served in Ramasses II army.

An inscription of Ramesses II relates in the 8th year of his reign (which is dated c. 1176 BC):
"No land could stand before their arms, from Hatti, Qode, Carchemish, Arzawa and Alasiya on, being cut off at one time. A camp was set up in one place in Amurru. They desolated its people, and its land was like that which has never come into being. They were coming toward Egypt, while the flame was prepared before them. Their confederation was the Peleset, Tjeker, Shekelesh, Denyen, and Weshesh, lands united. They laid their hands upon the land as far as the circuit of the earth, their hearts confident and trusting: 'Our plans will succeed!'

Medinet Habu Inscription
The Pelset were also known as the Philistines. The Lukka may have come from Lycea in Anatolia. Ekwesh and Denen were Achaean and Danaean Greeks. The Sherden were possibly from Sardinia. The Teresh were either Tursha or Tyrshenoi or possibly the Tyrrhenians the Greek name for the Etruscans or they may have come from the Taruisa region of Anatolia. Shekelesh my may have been Sicilians.


The mass migration of populations west was most likely caused by the failure of crops. Inscriptions at Karnak indicate shipments of grain to starving Hittites at the time. They seemed to have caused problems in Mycenean Greece for a time then settled in the delta region of Egypt where many foreigners seemed to settle when sailing from Greece to Egypt. It was only when they joined forces with Libyan tribes that they became a threat with some 16,000 men.

The first attack of the Sea people occurred during the 5th regnal year of Merenptah, the 19th Dynasty ruler and son of Ramesses II.

Here's a larger image of the suspected Atlantean site shown on the BBC site:

http://www.beepworld.de/memberdateien/members62/rwk_atlantis/hinojos.jpg

One other theory is that the Sea People may have actually been a confederation of Troy and its allies and that the Trojan war was the result of the Mycenaean Greeks attempting to counter those raids by putting an end to Troy, rather than the popular story about Helen and Paris.

The list of contingents on the Trojan side in The Iliad, saying that Troy's allies came from all along the Aegean east coast between Thrace in the north and Lycia in the south the same region attributed to the "Sea People".
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[Lannes]

For those that played Poseidon, I thought I might share this link. Scientists think they have found Atlantis in Spain. BTW, this is from BBC, not your ususal tabloid.

Seems like a bold statement if based on this image alone. There appear to be several dried up river beds here. Seems to me the "ring shaped feature" could just as well be a remnant of a river bend cut off as the water changed its course. In any case I notice a number of similar features that do not follow the plan. The "temples" may have been structures, but I have to say sometimes the human brain is a bit too good at detecting patterns. It seems unlikely that anyone looking at the images without prior knowledge would have identified two rectangular shapes here.

Lannes

[Bradius]

Well, who knows. I am not an expert in understanding such images. Anyway, it seems a ligit report of interest to the group.

Keith, you raise an interesting point that conflict often occurred due to famine. I wonder if that can be built into CotN?

[Keith]

Starvation was usually a good enough reason for migration and often conflict. Whether or not it will be modeled into CotN only time will tell.
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[EmperorJay]

Nice link, thanks. :) I don't believe that Atlantis housed a whole civilization which was lost by the sinking of Atlantis. But I do think that at sometime an earthquake (that's the only explanation I can think of) resulted in the sinking of an island or a piece of land. They found Troy as well, so who knows if they'll find a city in one of our oceans and seas!

[Jayhawk]

I'm sceptic, especially after looking at the few aireal (sp?) photographs provided. I did find it an interesting twist to connect Atlantis with Tartessos.

[Tony Leier]

Interesting link.

What continues to amaze me is how hard people look for Atlantis and find ways to justify theories and so on, and you very rarely see mentioned what is, by far, the most likely explanation- that Plato made the whole thing up to illustrate his philosophical ideals of government (The Republic).

The single primary reference on Atlantis are Plato's Timeaus and Critias (which is unfinished). (http://classics.mit.edu/Browse/browse-Plato.html) Those are the only, only, only classic references to Atlantis. Given how closely these works complement The Republic, and given how common it is for philosophers to use allegories to argue their positions, I really can't imagine it not being fiction.

That doesn't make the myth any less interesting, or less fun to discuss (or write a game about :D ). I'd just like more people to know the more of the history behind it.

[Azeem]

Fascinating commentary, Tony Leier. :)

Everyone has a dream of an "Atlantis," whether it's Plato's Atlantis or the Atlantis of the imagination. Whether or not Atlantis exists does not matter at all. Most of us (the fools that we are) have our own vision of an "Atlantis" and it matters not what its name is, how it looks like, or where we want or expect it to be. In this sense, Atlantis is very real because it exists in our minds more than anywhere else. :)

[Josh]

Secondly, the ancient unit of measurement used by Plato - the stade - may have been 20% larger than traditionally assumed.

If the latter is true, one of the rectangular features on the "island" matches almost exactly the dimensions given by Plato for the temple of Poseidon.

Well with solid proof like that it has to be Atlantis, who could argue that if we arbitrarily change the unit of measurement to match that of the size of one rectangle, they are equal! if the rectangle was a little bigger its just as likely we were off by 25%!

Also if this area doesnt quite match any discriptions it's just as likely it was translated poorly, so change it to whatever fits... so its not an island... coastline is pretty close. and if its not metal rich, they must have just mistranslated the word "dirt"

Sorry I'm going to need a little more evidence (or any evidence at all) before two rings become a lost city.

[Miut]

Bleh.. the piccies could be of any old ringed hill fort structure. There are loads in Britain and none of them have ever been thought to be more than they actually are! Sorry, I don't believe in Atlantis at all. Nice to play with the idea, but that's it.

[Bradius]

My but I sure have stirred up some interesting comments. :) Just for the record, I also do not believe that Atlantis existed, mainly because I would think such a culture would have left more of an impression in the ancient world and evidence of its existence if it really did overlap our ancient world and was as advanced as it is perported to have been. I did have fun reading some books on Atlantis when Poseidon came out in preparation of developing (too few) campaigns.

[EmperorJay]

There is some evidence that the Sphinx and possibly (some) Pyramids are a lot older than Egyptian civilization... yet it's unknown who built them instead (if they really are older).

Evidence for this is provided by astrologists, the position of some pyramids is equal to the position of certain starts on the sky earlier than 3.000 BC (can't recall the exact date at the moment, sorry) but also by the erosion of the Sphinx and the size of its head compared to its body.

Wheter you believe it all is personal, of course and I don't believe it, but maybe the Atlanteans have build them... ;)

[Keith]

There is some evidence that the Sphinx and possibly (some) Pyramids are a lot older than Egyptian civilization... yet it's unknown who built them instead (if they really are older).

Evidence for this is provided by astrologists, the position of some pyramids is equal to the position of certain starts on the sky earlier than 3.000 BC (can't recall the exact date at the moment, sorry) but also by the erosion of the Sphinx and the size of its head compared to its body.

Wheter you believe it all is personal, of course and I don't believe it, but maybe the Atlanteans have build them... ;)
The only problem is that these modern astrolgists are going by the current positions of the stars. Some 5000 years ago in 3000 BC the stars were not in the places we see them now. So their entire theory is bogus, not that I believe in astrology in the first place. ;)

[EmperorJay]

Maybe astrologist is not the right term to use, perhaps scientists is better. But when I saw it on Discovery Channel, they used a computer to calculate the exact date on which those stars would align, so they weren't actually going by modern positions. Don't ask me about details though, it has been quite a while since I've seen it. :p

Anyway, I don't really believe it either but its just fun to think about stuff like that.

[Azeem]

Fact and skepticism. Reality and fantasy.

When it comes down to things like that, it ultimately doesn't matter. I don't know whether or not Atlantis exists or if any of us can really prove if it exists or doesn't exist at all, no matter how many "facts" or "evidence" we can produce. It is all very much subjective, thus trying to prove or disprove whether it exists is probably a huge waste of time and energy. It's sort of like trying to prove/disprove the Loch Ness Monster, extra-terrestrial life, etc.

Perhaps Atlantis represents the pinnacle of human imagination? Quite frankly, if you don't have you're own little "Atlantis" in your imagination, then there's something wrong with you. ;)

[Rachelc258]

Sea people, sea people. Aren't they also suspected of being the ones that sent greece into its dark age?

[Keith]

I am not sure about Greece, but they wiped out at least one civilization in Asia Minor, the Hitites, IIRC, and even though the Egyptians did manage to hold them off it is reported the Egypt slipped into a "dark age" afterwards.
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[Miut]

Egyptians and astronomy - well as Keith pointed out the align the 3 pyramids at Giza with the stars, and say "Look, proof!" However, there are MORE than 3 pyramids at Giza - there are 3 Queen's pyramids for a start and there are the mud brick remains of a 4th big one out there somewhere too.

Not much proof I'd say. Also if you look at how the stepped pyramid I think it is was constructed, it was a Mastaba with a bit added on then finally another bit, making it a pyramid. Hardly the way you construct a magical building... ;) Or am I just a cynic?

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[Jayhawk]

I really can't imagine it not being fiction.
However, like many myths, it may be based in some way on something that really happened. I think the biggest problem with Atlantis is that we started to name any possibly flooded culture Atlantis. I also think that Schliemann finding Troy (which was thought to be myth too) made a lot of people feel that if that existed, why not Atlantis.

The only problem is that these modern astrolgists are going by the current positions of the stars.
Actually, they don't. What they are arguing is that the sphinx lines up with where the stars were c.8000 BC

There is some evidence that the Sphinx and possibly (some) Pyramids are a lot older than Egyptian civilization... yet it's unknown who built them instead (if they really are older).
There are several arguments for this, besides astronomic evidence.
The most important ones are the weathering on the sphinx which appears to be caused by lavish amounts of rain (having seen the sphinx and having studied geology at university) I can say this looks to be the case, but I've heard people say other forms of weathering might cause the same patterns (mostly salt based weathering).
A possibly less telling one is that the face of the sphinx doesn't resemble the style (proportions) of other carvings of pharaohs. For example the slope of the face is wrong. It's obvious though the sphinx head is much smaller than it's body (not to mention less weathered) which doesn't match later day sphinxes.

align the 3 pyramids at Giza with the stars, and say "Look, proof!"
IIRC they align with the belt of Osiris (Orion) and I've heard it to be more than just these three stars.
The Queen's pyramids of course are not important ;)

[Janmeryet]

Anyone interested in a (pseudo?) scientific approach to the Atlantis myth may want to have a peek at "The Sunken Kingdom" by Peter James. He claims no less than to have SOLVED the Atlantis mystery!

[Atihotep]

Could you just tell us what the solution is? I haven't got money to buy books! I'm saving up for Children of the Nile.

Atihotep

[Jayhawk]

I'm not sure if it's the same one, but one of the explanations I've heard is based on the Piri Reis map, which shows part of Antarctica (now covered in ice) It's believed by some, that the end of the Ice Age was followed by a polar shift, which pushed Antarctica to it's polar position and caused the temperate region of the peninsula to freeze over. The simultaneous sea level rise cause the outlying areas (caostal shelf) to drown.

Some people believe Atlantis was a (pre-)Ice Age civilisation located on this peninsula. They also suggest that refugees moved to both Africa and S.America (and of course, introduced pyramids there). They link the early date (i.e. shortly post glacial) of the sphinx to these refugees and the various "strange" ruins in S.America.

While I think the polar shift is indeed something that may have happened, I believe ice cores taken there show a continuous ice cover for the past 400,000 years or so. It also fails to take into account the radically different make-up (and appearance time wise) of pyramids on either side of the Atlantic.

[Janmeryet]

Atihotep, it's an argument proposing the ancient kingdom of Lydia, which was situated where modern Ephesus and Izmir are today in Turkey. He has 290 pages of moderately well argued text, but like any pseudo science, is open to debate! Regardless of its truth, I found it a fascinating read, and you could visit a library rather than buying it ;)
I've heard the Piri Reis map theory too, but it seems to have been effectively debunked - despite the claims that the map's coastline follows the Antarctic coastline, when compared with the accuracy of the rest of the map, it's actually a lot closer to the southern end of S.America tipped on its side, as if Reis ran out of room! But who'll ever know?