Patricians: Sooner or Later??

[Vercingetorix]

I'm into my 5th Empire mission, Ephesus. In all previous missions (Kingdom, Republic, Empire), I've never built housing for Patricians immediately. Rather, I'll develop a stable economy with Plebs and Equites first. That is, I'll get agriculture and industry moving. I open several trade routes (posts/docks). Begin to build a military industrial complex; that is, I'll manufacture swords and maybe armor, but not create a fort/recruiter/mess-hall until my profits are steady.

Then, when all is ready, I build Villas. This may not occur for several years into the mission. I delay, because those Patricians are so demanding, especially for exotic goods, which are expensive and can cripple a young, burgeoning economy. Even If I do not satisfy all their requests (I limit import at the doc/post and Resource Advisor screen), the expenses can mount; Caesarea mission just proved that .

I said all that to ask this: Is that smart?

I understand that Patricians will bring in property tax; but, unless their whiny, childish, spoiled whims are satisfied, they vacate and trash the villa on their way out.

Your thoughts?? How soon do you invite Patricians to the Party?

[vic_4]

I usually add patricians when I have a net fllow cash, I have 5000-8000 denary, my city is stabilized and I can add equites houses. I first build some services, add patricians, whrn they demand exotic goods I import all goods available with a limitation of 6 each and continue to add services to let them evolve.

[MarkDuffy]

Yup, Patricians definitely later, but it depends on the Scenario. This might change in the future. I know full well how Tricky & very EVIL TM can be with unclear Scenario Goals, cuz I play COTN. I can forsee a Scenario with no exports that forces me to build Patricians early. :D

Right now, it's money first & Requests/Orders (Demands) from the Home Office in Rome & Military preparations. This means Sales Tax & Exports.

Patrician Property Tax is pretty feeble until you get them evolved a lot & that takes cash (& room!). :)

[Grumpus]

Whenever I start a city I make sure my plebe housing has coverage from an Odeum, Jupiter shrine, and a clinic. I place these buildings in such a way that they will also cover my Patrician housing when I get around to placing it.

I wait until I have a dependable supply of two food types, 2 basic goods, and one luxury good. Then I place my villas. They already have enough coverage from existing facilities to evolve to Medium Villa. I then add a barbershop, theater and a actor's guild. The villas will then evolve to Large Villas and that's where they will sit until I'm ready to provide them with exotic goods. This can be two or three years later. Meantime, they are churning a nice steady tax stream. I haven't figured it out exactly, but I think each Large Villa will pay about 400dn/year in taxes.

[bexgames]

Whenever I start a city I make sure my plebe housing has coverage from an Odeum, Jupiter shrine, and a clinic. I place these buildings in such a way that they will also cover my Patrician housing when I get around to placing it.
That's how I do it also..kinda move left to right, adding the things the patricians will need to evolve quickly.
My dream is to have a massive patician area (like agamemnus) where it's sooo large, I have to add all that necessary stuff on the other side as well! :cool:

[Vercingetorix]

Thanks. I appreciate advice from the heavy hitters of TM's games.

[Keith]

I may place my patricians at some point after I'm well into my basic city construction after getting the industry, farms, pleb and equites housing going, but I won't work on developing patrician housing until later in the game.

[Plebus]

......
I wait until I have a dependable supply of two food types, 2 basic goods, and one luxury good. Then I place my villas. They already have enough coverage from existing facilities to evolve to Medium Villa. I then add a barbershop, theater and a actor's guild. The villas will then evolve to Large Villas and that's where they will sit until I'm ready to provide them with luxury goods. This can be two or three years later. That's almost what I want to say:) one minor difference: I'll buy exotic goods whenever I feel safe.Small estate will bring in almost 70% increase of property tax,the most profitable upgrade of all levels.

Meantime, they are churning a nice steady tax stream. I haven't figured it out exactly, but I think each Large Villa will pay about 400dn/year in taxes.

432 denarii at 6% to be exact.For small estates that's 720.

[Grumpus]

Plebus: Good stuff! Thanks

[Vercingetorix]

While we're talking taxes, why leave them at the default amounts? I jump the Property taxes to 8% and Sales taxes to 7% without detrimental effects. Sure, my Financial Advisor informs me that people are grumbling. But, hey, I deserve it! All Villas still eventually upgrade to Grand Mansions.

[Cartpusher]

As governor, I want someone of my own class to have over for dinner and hang out with, so I place one patrician fairly early and start developing his mansion as time and funds allow. I also map out the neighborhood to allow space for more patricians. That way, if I irritate the patricians, only one family leaves and recovery isn't so painful.

Then when I'm ready to pump up the prosperity and win the mission, I add as many more patricians as I need. It takes them no time at all to catch up with the first one. All that evolution is fun to watch, also.

So far, I have had enough income from trade and sales taxes. I may have to change my plan when property taxes become necessary.

[Grumpus]

That's almost what I want to say:) one minor difference: I'll buy exotic goods whenever I feel safe.Small estate will bring in almost 70% increase of property tax,the most profitable upgrade of all levels.


432 denarii at 6% to be exact.For small estates that's 720.

Just thought of something. If I give my Large Villas exotic goods they will evolve to Small Estates and each one will pay an extra 288 dn in taxes. How much will it cost me to provide the exotic goods? Just went over to the HG forum where Pecunia has been doing some bean counting. Acording to her: There are 16 consumption cycles per year' and a villa will consume 12 units of exotic goods per cycle, and 1 unit in market = 100 units in home. So it would seem that:

1 Small Estate will consume 16 x 12 /100 = 1.92 goods per year. Most exotic goods seem to cost 150 dn a pop so I can get an additional 288dn in tax income by providing 1.92 x 150 = 288dn worth of exotic goods. That doesn't look like a very good return on investment - particularly if you add in cost of operating the exotic market.

[MarkDuffy]

1 Small Estate will consume 16 x 12 /100 = 1.92 goods per year. Most exotic goods seem to cost 150 dn a pop so I can get an additional 288dn in tax income by providing 1.92 x 150 = 288dn worth of exotic goods. That doesn't look like a very good return on investment - particularly if you add in cost of operating the exotic market.

Now you are catching on, Grumpus. However, you need to add in the HUGE Sales Taxes you get from the Exotic Market.

By the time Patrician Property Tax starts to amount to anything, the Scenario is won. I evolve them for Prosperity, not really for the Denari they provide.

I can roll in enough cash from Exports & Sales Taxes on all three Lux Goods to my Equites to do most anything.

I evolve Patricians, basically, for the fun of doing it! :)

[Cartpusher]

Interesting analysis, but you forgot to factor in the sales taxes you can collect when the patricians buy the exotic goods at the market.

[MarkDuffy]

Adding an image of my just completed Narbo financial Advisor. I have 8 Meduim Estates, which is the highest we can go here. Last year might still have some Small Estates in there.

I STILL love Sales Taxes. :D

[Grumpus]

Now you are catching on, Grumpus. However, you need to add in the HUGE Sales Taxes you get from the Exotic Market.

By the time Patrician Property Tax starts to amount to anything, the Scenario is won. I evolve them for Prosperity, not really for the Denari they provide.

I can roll in enough cash from Exports & Sales Taxes on all three Lux Goods to my Equites to do most anything.

I evolve Patricians, basically, for the fun of doing it! :)

I love sales taxes too. Let's see what the HUGE sales taxes that we get from the exotic market would amount to:

Each Small Estate will buy 1.92 exotic goods from the exotic market every year so if the exotic goods cost 150 per pop, the sales tax at 6% would add up to .06 x 150 x1.92 =a whopping 17.28dn per year!

The real sales tax income comes from the Plebes.

A plebe eats 08 grain per month. If grain costs 14dn, the folks in a fully occupied large insula would pay 150 x .08 x 14dn = 168 dn sales tax per year on food alone!

[SKaesar]

I guess I'm off here, but it works for me. I always build one block of four villas before I unpause my map (initial setup). I also jack both taxes up to 9% immediately. I don't have any issues with the taxes other than some grumbling. The reason I build the villas right away is that even if they only evolve to medium villas initially, it's still tax money coming in.

[Grumpus]

I guess I'm off here, but it works for me. I always build one block of four villas before I unpause my map (initial setup). I also jack both taxes up to 9% immediately. I don't have any issues with the taxes other than some grumbling. The reason I build the villas right away is that even if they only evolve to medium villas initially, it's still tax money coming in.

Yeah you get a little money from taxes because they will evolve to medium or large insula even if they don't have food, or goods. The problem is, that as soon as they realize it, they leave town taking whatever food or goods you have provided with them.

Still, it's about a wash so there's no real reason not to initially place villas

[MarkDuffy]

I have no idea where you get your numbers from Grumpus. Taxes rates have nothing to do with reality. They are just a benchmark so they can be changed. We went over it in the Demo & discovered this.

What I know is that I don't appear to get much from Food Markets. It is only when I turn on my Lux Market that Sales taxes shoot up. This is selling all three types. It also ramps up when I provide all three basic goods.

I don't buy your food & Plebs Sales Taxes. I start with lots of food. I add the other things. My Sales Taxes begin small.

But, perhaps you can explain the 750 & 300 Sundries charge. THAT would impress me! ;)

[Grumpus]

OK! Different strokes for different folks. It will all be revealed sooner or later.

[Cartpusher]

In another thread there is discussion about the markets having tax multipliers. Food=1, Basic=3, Lux=6 and Exotic=12. Possibly in ledhead's planner thread.

By the way Grumpus, the assumed price of a unit of food (in the demo, at least) in the food market is 100 denari, not 14. When I was trying to track all of the cash flow, I found that at tax rate 10%, 10 dinari came to the treasury for each unit of food sold. At tax rate 6%, 6 dinari came in.

I haven't checked any of the other markets. Because of those multipliers, though, I expect the tax per unit must get larger, but correspondingly fewer units are sold as you move up the scale. I just look at the tax potential and tax collected overlays to see what's happening. It seems like the food market is always bright green. Everybody eats, right.

[Grumpus]

Well, I really don't care. If a 6% sales tax doesn't mean a 6% tax on sales and there is a markup or some sort of multiplier, that's OK with me. Sooner or later, this game's beam counters will simpifly it to the degree that even a senile deranged old fart like me can understand it.

The original question was do you build villas sooner or later. I build them when I can supply them, and I hold them at Large Insula level until I'm ready to move on. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[Plebus]

:)
Sales tax is very impressive when your city are filling the pipeline,but when everything is settled down,people are only buying goods at the rate they consuming it,the property tax will weigh much higher (assume you have a decent number of villa and upgraded to atleast estate level).

to Grumpus:exotic goods cost 150 (salt 130),but salestax will give you back 60 denarii (according to some observation posted in this forum),so the real price of importing exotic is 2x(150-60)=180 ...288 is assuming 6% rate,but usually you can raise it 1 or 2 percent,that's 336 or 384 deraii difference! (840/960 total).

Just take it as an industry which needs imports of row material then sell at a high price,the best trade of this kind in the game is weapon,the net profit is 70-78 (assuming you can cut trees),now compare to the net profit of buying exotics,which is at least (288-180)=108...;)

[MarkDuffy]

:)
Sales tax is very impressive when your city are filling the pipeline,but when everything is settled down,people are only buying goods at the rate they consuming it,the property tax will weigh much higher (assume you have a decent number of villa and upgraded to atleast estate level).

The Financial Advisor screen I posted sez different... ;)

[Plebus]

The Financial Advisor screen I posted sez different... ;)
What about this?:D (Thessalonica,the same 2nd Republic,I have one more ME,and according salary payed,I have much less population).

[MarkDuffy]

What about this?:D (Thessalonica,the same 2nd Republic,I have one more ME,and according salary payed,I have much less population).

1) You increased your Property Tax rate

2) You need MORE full Markets

:D

PS ~ I can't tell from this screen how many people you have. You might have few or many with lowered wages.

[Plebus]

1) You increased your Property Tax rate

2) You need MORE full Markets

:D
As the patricians are content with their life in the city,why not?

Wage is standard.

The number markets in my Thessalonica is sufficient to make the city stable...and I have 5 forts using a lot of food.:)

[MarkDuffy]

As the patricians are content with their life in the city,why not?

Not the point of the comparison, Plebus, but nice try. ;)

I can make a killing with this game by gaming the rates of things. Cash is ALL over the place. Not necessary yet. :D

Oh, fort food is pitiful. Barely more than the storage/consumption of ONE large residence.

[Plebus]

Not the point of the comparison, Plebus, but nice try. ;)

I can make a killing with this game by gaming the rates of things. Cash is ALL over the place. Not necessary yet. :D
Your questioning of the salary issue reminds me a good strategy (well,my plebs and equites in Thessalonica are way too happy...now I know how to deal with them) ,thanks:D

[MarkDuffy]

Your questioning of the salary issue reminds me a good strategy (well,my plebs and equites in Thessalonica are way too happy...now I know how to deal with them) ,thanks:D

LOL !!!

Happy Gaming, Plebus! :)

[Plebus]

...

Oh, fort food is pitiful. Barely more than the storage/consumption of ONE large residence.
But they have a huge storage space.5 fort + mess hall can take away 96 units of food plus consumptions,that could disrupt your food supply chain if not well prepared.

[MarkDuffy]

But they have a huge storage space.5 fort + mess hall can take away 96 units of food plus consumptions,that could disrupt your food supply chain if not well prepared.

Yup, yup, yup! Especially stressing the Preparation! It is not that big of a deal, though, Plebus. I expected them to eat much more.

With Forts, space is always a much bigger gamplay issue than the food they remove from the system. :)

[Cadfan]

For what its worth, you can support a city on Villas alone, no exports, no imports.

I only tried it on a small city; if I recall I had 8 Pleb homes, and 4 equite homes. It was a little hairy at first, I went into the negatives for a moment or two, but the Villas and general taxes did pull in enough to pay all my wages and generate a small but sufficient profit.

[Vercingetorix]

But, perhaps you can explain the 750 & 300 Sundries charge. THAT would impress me!
Purchasing trade routes are accounted for in Sundries. There may be other fees, such as paying-off invaders, paying tribute to Rome, etc., as well.

[Plebus]

LOL !!!

Happy Gaming, Plebus! :)Another pic for your viewing pleasure:D ,this one is taken at Caralis,which I've just finished...Comparing 2 years' tax,you'll see what I mean(finished filling the pipeline):)