Sustaining Empire Level

[JoeExplorer]

I've been looking at some the screen shots from the Empire Level of these maps that have all those people.

It seems to me that alot of people get so far with the scenario...and then just add pleb housing where ever possible just to get the pop count high. Some of these looking very haphazard.

I guess what I'm getting at is this: Anyone can throw housing units down on a map and have people move in for a short time. This gives them a boost in the pop count. My contention is that the map ought to be sustainable with the pop. So you couldn't have 30,000 people on a sustainable map of just 15,000. There ought to be some way to deduct points (pop count) from maps that don't have happy citizens.

This is almost cheating in my opinion. I'ld rather see a rating system that rewards a high population count and at the same time rewards an efficient city layout.

[Rnett]

The system encourages people to build like that, I could make the same point on maps with wall-to-wall towers surrounding the city. It works just fine, though a bit unrealistic & inaccurate.

[PeHaSys]

Also note that, at least in Arena, but I believe this applies to Empire as well, what counts is average of last three months. Also, the immigrants arrive "one at a time", so to add 15000 more people takes several months, if not years - yes, you could pause the game, "drop" extra 215 Insulae and then switch to normal speed, but it would take a long time for those extra 15050 plebians to arrive and count, by which time they may get unhappy and leave if not supplied by food or whatever else they need to keep them better than angry.

- Peter.

[PantherX]

Hey JoeExplorer!

Actually I agree with you in terms of running the "Perfect" city and having a rewards system for that. I wish I could figure out the dynamics in how to judge the criteria for a ranking system that would end up with something rather than 1000's of tie winners. Maybe a population penalty, which subtracts the unemployed?

I think the challenge side of the online game would judge this better due to the different challenges that they present. But alas I have not played the Challenge side of the online C4.

The real challenge in building for population is Unemployment. Too many unemployed and they get mad and do crimes and get madder and leave.:eek:

You still need to feed and give goods to everyone. The plebs are very picky about goods and will just get sick and die if they are not eating well.

The nice thing about C4 is that production in almost never a problem. Distribution is the tricky part and as PeHaSys pointed out it does take years to bring in the plebs and you need to have the goods ready for them to consume when they get to the insule

Which brings the real challenge of the empire side, down to Land Management and layout?
Those are the types of things I like to do, so it works for me. I really like to build cities that look "real" rather than stamped out blocks. Sadly the only way to do population maps is more or less stamped out blocks and labor dumps.
Oh and if you?re hinting at my haphazard maps:o , yep that?s what happened. I had about 9 cities built to the win stage before I started the population quest. Once I started on population I just continued on the original maps. Most of my cities in Empire are not pretty at all.

:cool: PantherX
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[JoeExplorer]

PantherX............I'm not pointing fingers at any one player. I realize that's the way you have to play if you want to win. My maps start looking haphazzard after a while.

I guess it just frustrates me that you take the time to build something nice and functional only to destroy it at the end to add buildings anywhere you can.

But then, on the other hand, real life is getting like that too. They're building all over the place any where they can.

[PeHaSys]

I haven't actually explored this, but, I believe, you also need entertainment. The plebs don't need goods per se, all they need is food and some water. Without fountain and basic goods, they don't grow, so the insulae stay small, but they can be reasonably happy (okay, for the most part they also need to be employed).

However, once you reach certain population level, without entertainment, the city starts to have higher risks of fire. At least, that's my theory.

I've never built city without any equites (beyond some tutorial scenarios), and for them to behave (and stay) you need to provide basic goods.

Also, if your food supply is lacking/falling behind, then there is problem with health.

So, frankly, to achieve anything worthwhile (over 10000 people), you'd need both plebs and equites and either reasonable trade (export) or couple of evolved patrician buildings.

Once your economy is self-sustaining, in other words, once you are making money, then you can start throwing insulae here and there, as long as you have enough food for them.

And, if you have any fountain on the map, build it close. :-) In one scenario, once I started to build the actual city after I got my economy running and after I defended the first few attacks that that scenario brought, then plebs, who were there just to make some money, were moving to this new location to pick up their fountain water. Sort of like when they are visiting Theater or Arena... long line of people. It didn't matter to them that they had to walk quite a bit to pick it up on the other side of the map.

The first 10000 Dn is nothing compared to what you'd need to build a city for 15000 people. Just 215 insulae in Carthago in Arena would cost you 12255 Dn and there is no food or prefects or anything else.

So, while I too agree that cities like that don't look good, the purpose of Empire (and some Arena scenarios) is to have high population, at least, for the most part. Pretty and large, in my opinion, don't go well together.

I would also like to suggest to look at modern cities with high population. To a great degree they are not pretty. You can have some areas, that you are proud of, but the rest... that's another matter.

On the other hand, some voting contest ("Caesar IV City of Season IX" or something like that :-) ) would be an option for people who don't want to (or can not) build cities with high number of people, but who would like to win for other reasons. However, beauty, just like in real world, is very subjective. What is pretty city to one, may just as well be ugly to another.

Maybe the timespan could be more than three months for Empire scenarios to calculate the average number of people in the city. On the other hand, personally, I don't think that it matters much. You need more than just housing.

Okay, enough with the rambling (for now),

- Peter.