The 14 "familiar gods" / predictions

[vovan]

Okay, it's more speculation time, I think. :)

So, in that update a few days ago, that included the first confirmed god, I am sure people noticed the phrase "In Children of the Nile, people worship the 14 familiar gods..." Now, that's a whole lot of gods, and I can't help but be terrified by the prospect of paying that much homage, though that is a discussion for a different thread. :)

What I would like to do here is discuss: which gods do you think will be in the game / which god do you think will be featured in the next update? :D

First of all, I am thinking that all major gods from Pharaoh will be featured, simply because they are the most well-known and powerful gods. (By "well-known", I guess I don't even mean so much in ancient Egypt, for I don't have nearly enough knowledge to judge, but more in the modern times, in the areas where the game is to be distributed. :-)) So, some gods on the list would be:

Osiris
Ra
Ptah
Seth
Bast

As far as the others are concerned, I don't know, there are too many to choose from. :-)

Now, as far as Hapi goes. It only makes sense that he would be the first god to be featured in the updates, seeing how he is the god of the Nile. Maybe next up is Nun, just 'cause he's so cool. :-)

As well, I was searching the web for some more info on Hapi, for I must sadly concede: I'd never even heard of that god before, - and found the following article:

http://www.egyptianmyths.net/hapi.htm

Now, it gives a nice general blurb for an overview of what the god was about, but one bit that caught my interest is this:

Osiris was originally a water or river god and eventually Hapi was identified with him.

I'm not quite sure how to read that sentence. Does it mean that these two gods were seen as different, but serving essentially the same purpose, or does it mean that they at a later date kinda came to be regarded as the same god?

If it is the latter, then it gives me the interesting idea that maybe as the time in the game goes on, then the gods replace each other in succession, much as they might have in the Egyptian mythology. That would make sense, too, for as we have seen from that IGN preview, there will essentially be three stages to the campaign (or was it four? Sorry too lazy to look it up :-)). So then, it would only make sense that maybe some gods would be replaced by others between those stages. That would also add a certain flavour to the different stages of the campaign, and could be quite refreshing. :-)

That and the fact that we would have to worship 14 gods all at once, but would only maybe have to deal with 5 gods or so per any given stage in the campaign, which could be more managable, and would be more reminiscent of the number of gods in Pharaoh.

PS: Hmmm... Too many smileys again. :-)

EDIT: Typos abound. :-(

[Azeem]

Wasn't the image of Hapi also used for the canopic jars along with Imsety and Duamutef? There was a fourth one, but I've forgotten the name...

[EmperorJay]

I actually never read anything about Bast outside of Pharaoh.

I don't have the time now to make a full analysis and I need to overcome our loss against the Czech Republic first.

However, if I would have name 14 Egyptian gods just from memory these would be on my list:

Ma'at
Osiris
Horus
Ra
Amun
Isis
Ptah
Seth
Hapi
Bast
...

:p As you can see, I would need to do a little research before I could give you my prediction. Then again, if they would provide us the list now, I'd probably say: "Of course, how could I forget that one and that one". ;)

[vovan]

Then again, if they would provide us the list now...

Though that would be no fun at all. ;)

:D

[Keith]

From what I recall there are more than just 14 gods, but many of the dieties were not officially worshipped though many were mentioned, such as Aken, in the book of the dead.

For a list of many of the major and minor dieties try the list on this page (http://www.crystalinks.com/egyptgodsindex.html).
http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/horus2.gif
Keith Heitmann
http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/my-cartouche.gif
dheitm8612@aol.com (mailto:dheitm8612@aol.com)
Pharaoh Music Jukebox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/pharaoh.htm)

[Bradius]

Thanks for the link Keith! That is a great link. Hum, Sheshat, the goddess of scribes and librarians! I think I am in love :)

Keith, I notice one named Neith. Nearly a match there, except it is a goddess ;)

[Miut]

We shouldn't forget that many gods now familiar to us here as people interested in Ancient Egypt would not have been well know, or perhaps even known at all, to many outside the learned communities or perhaps even royal circles of Ancient Egypt.

With history, you have to look at things in the perspective of their proper place in time. We have knowledge today of the gods worshipped in Egypt over a 2,500 -3,000 year span of time. The people living at any one time did not. A generation then, a normal life time, was maybe 40 years if you were lucky. Ramesses 2nd lived an unusually long life. He was only in his 80's when he died, and he outlived many of his sons - I think 40 of them..

You also have to look at parallels wth other cultures when piecing one together from its remains - anthropological tools come into use here, knowing how people and cultures have behaved in the past provides a working model or comparison for this one.
Look at the early Christian church. Learning was confined to it - much of what we know of old cultures, and strangely a lot of pagan knowledge, comes form documents etc preserved by the early church, especially during the worst of the Norse raids on England.

Wealthy families with more sons than land, sent them to the church so the church inherited a wealth of warm bodies with power, money and influence. Thus they could afford to concentrate on learning. (yes, I am simplifying it)
The church kept Latin alive as their link to the very early church, so it became a holy language, thus all written work and services were held in it. And only those educated in the church, or by the church, could speak it when Latin died out as a commun use language.
Glasgow, in Scotland, where I grew up was blessed as being a city of friendly rivalry through football rather than religion. It was a city half-in-half comprised of Orange Lodge Protestants living peacefully beside many Catholics who'd actually line the streets and cheer during the Protestant Orange Lodge processions. Processions that in Belfast ended in bloody religious sectarian violence. The same was true about racial tolerance the last time I visited my brother in what is now a thriving Pakistani community. :) A real melting pot of ideas and types is Glasgow.
I mention this because I remember very vividly in the 1960's when the Pope of the day, I think Pope John Paul 1 (the first one, cos the first died early on, and the next one took the same name) announced by Papal decree that services should be held in the language of the country not in Latin any more. Hard line Catholics were scandalized. As Scots Protestants, we sat back and watched it all with interest. You see, to the average person even in 1960's, they didn't know what was being said most of the time during a service because it was in Latin. They knew what it was supposed to be, sure, but was it really that, or were the priest just saying it was? For the first time the services were actually understandable by the common man in the street.

Now this was a big thing. Think about it, in terms of Ancient Egypt too. A Priesthood with "secret" knowledge, services held in a priestly language etc. And yes, they did use this as a means to have power. Now we know the truth of it, but looking at it put like this...makes you realize how religions work, how people think.

So you see, historical perspective is important. ;)

Egypt's pantheon of gods and goddesses was added to as the people of Egypt developed and spread down the Nile, conquering those on their way, and assimilating their dieties into their own pantheon as the Victor has done for millenia.

I believe we will have the Gods and Goddesses of Eygpt relevant to the time period and geographical location of the portion of the game we are playing in at the time.

Take Aten as an example. That god was unknown in the Old Kingdom, so not available to us in that time period. Just the same way that people living in Britian or Europe of 1st C AD had not been exposed to Christianity therefore they worshiped their own local gods - at that time they were under primarily Roman rule so Roman Gods would be prominent among the wealthy towns, cities and people. Not so out in the boonies.
And just the same way that Roman influence stopped at Hadrians Wall, their gods were unknown among the Picts and Scots living on the other side.
So Bast was known in the Delta regions, but less well known up in Thebes etc where Sekhmet ruled - after all, you got a deal more lions and lionesses in the desert areas around Thebes than down in the fertile delta. Perspective again.

We'll always have Amun, Mut, Khonsu as the main Theban trio, plus Ra, Horus because he was the embodiment of the heir to the throne, Osiris, Ptah. Maybe even Set/Seth cos of Ramesses, whose family brought his worship up to Thebes from the Delta, in the New Kingdom period, where their family originated.

Many of the others are likely to be not available til the New Kingdom when the Armana/Rammeside periods opened up the Books of the Dead to people outside royal circles. That was when you find snippets of prayers from the Book of the Dead in wealthy graves, and even the tomb workers graves. Until then it was the provenance only of royalty and the priesthood, way above the common man, even the wealthy common man.
So I would say, don't look for much worship of Anubis, Ma'at (a temple to her has never been found) and other lesser gods and goddesses that we know from the Book of the Dead till the New Kingdom.

Then you've got the gods of the common people - our equivalent is the pagan gods. Hapi is one such I would say, even though I believe there was at least one formal temple to him/her.
I should have my books, as well as my other belongings, the Gods willing, early next week. Then I can compile a chronological listing of the Gods and Goddesses available in their correct time periods and geographical locations.

Till then my best guess is,

Early through Old & Middle Kingdom
Amun, Mut, Khonsu, Ra, Sekhmet (for war then), Ptah, Osiris, Isis (but not to worship in the game) Horus (heir to the throne), Thoth (for priests and writing etc) and for the common people particularly, Hapi for Nile floods, Imhotep for children for the childless, Bes for childbirth, Sobek (fertility)
New Kingdom
Aten, Anubis, Seth/Set - and Amun, Mut, Khonsu, Ra, Sekhmet, Ptah, Osiris, Isis (but not to worship in the game) Horus, Thoth, and Hapi, Imhotep, Bes, Sobek - this is 14 if you take the Theban Triad as one temple, so one unit to worship.. ;)

http://www.sff.net/people/Lisanne/Viking/images/miut.gif

[vovan]

* Vovan looks at Miut's post and faints *

:D

I hope your hands are alright after typing all that up. ;)

Though I must say, that is a very interesting post. Most enlightening. :)

And nice link, Keith, though I've seen that one before.

[Keith]

Till then my best guess is,

Early through Old & Middle Kingdom
Amun, Mut, Khonsu, Ra, Sekhmet (for war then), Ptah, Osiris, Isis (but not to worship in the game) Horus (heir to the throne), Thoth (for priests and writing etc) and for the common people particularly, Hapi for Nile floods, Imhotep for children for the childless, Bes for childbirth, Sobek (fertility)
New Kingdom
Aten, Anubis, Seth/Set - and Amun, Mut, Khonsu, Ra, Sekhmet, Ptah, Osiris, Isis (but not to worship in the game) Horus, Thoth, and Hapi, Imhotep, Bes, Sobek - this is 14 if you take the Theban Triad as one temple, so one unit to worship.. ;)

Forget not the "Zep Tepi," the Pantheon of Egyptian Gods, Ptah, Ra, Su, Seb, Set, Osiris, Horus, Ma, and Thoth. They were the first.

[Ineti]

Till then my best guess is,

Early through Old & Middle Kingdom
Amun, Mut, Khonsu, Ra, Sekhmet (for war then), Ptah, Osiris, Isis (but not to worship in the game) Horus (heir to the throne), Thoth (for priests and writing etc) and for the common people particularly, Hapi for Nile floods, Imhotep for children for the childless, Bes for childbirth, Sobek (fertility)
New Kingdom
Aten, Anubis, Seth/Set - and Amun, Mut, Khonsu, Ra, Sekhmet, Ptah, Osiris, Isis (but not to worship in the game) Horus, Thoth, and Hapi, Imhotep, Bes, Sobek - this is 14 if you take the Theban Triad as one temple, so one unit to worship.. ;)[/img]

My guess is that there won't be a change of gods depending on the time, and that the 14 gods in the game will either a) not change from beginning to end, or b) the 14 gods will come and go as the time proceeds. So, you may not have access to all 14 at once.

Among my picks would be Amun-Ra, Horus, Isis, Osiris, Set(h), Ptah, Thoth, Hapi, Anubis, Sekhmet, and Bastet. Tauert, Bes, Khonsu, Sobek, Montu, Geb, and Nut are all possibilities as well.

[EmperorJay]

Thank you for the link Keith.

Interesting post Miut. I knew that Ma'at was not that common, but I knew no others :p. I did think that Anubis was more common though.

It does raise an interesting question though.. will gods be introduced only at the times that they were introduced to the people or will they sacrifise a little historicle accuracy? My guess is that they will introduce more gods as the game progresses... (cause that's what they did in Emperor too)

Which brings up a second question, will all gods need to be worshipped? (Or will it be like in Pharaoh)

I'm a little in doubt here. One could say that the war god, Sekhmet needs no worship in times of peace. However, perhaps people would want to worship her anyway to make sure it war doesn't occur. For example..

Edit: Gender correction :)

[Ineti]

I'm a little in doubt here. One could say that the war god, Sekhmet needs no worship in times of peace. However, perhaps people would want to worship him anyway to make sure it war doesn't occur. For example..

Um...her. ;)

Don't call her wrath down upon you!

[G-Force]

Has anyone ever dared to make the comment: "Figured it would be a woman." ??? :D

;)

G-Force

PS: Just a little joke :)

[angelisis]

Take Aten as an example. That god was unknown in the Old Kingdom, so not available to us in that time period.
http://www.sff.net/people/Lisanne/Viking/images/miut.gif


i am sure that i saw or read somewhere evidence of the aten's cult before the old kingdom that actuallly the aten was samll but very established god of Ancient egypt. but i may be a tad of the mark, alas i will have a look see and let you know.

as for the gods. i think it would be more realistic to worship the main god of choise as worshipped many eons ago by each ruling dynesty,plus amun of course then add sevral of the local gods that were in favour at the time by the genral public and then you have your list. yes the list changes but that is how it really happened. diffrent family's and foreigners aserting the throne over time also gave more or less power to diffrent gods.

angelisis

[Miut]

Ineti,
Opps! Quite right! I don't want to call down Sekhmet's wrath! Better dig out my Sekhmet pendant quickly. ;) I was lucky enouugh to find a wonderful one, hollow silver, with heiroglyphs on it down the nose ,in a cartouch, at a market stall sold by a chap whop trades with Egypt for silver jewelry and he said it was an Egyptian piece. When I can will photo it and put it in here. ;)

I was looking up the various Gods and Goddesses on the Tour Egypt site and found this, the site map, with an amazing overview and Link listing of all the articles about ALL aspects of Ancient Egypt listed there.
Remember Tour Egypt is not just a tourist site - if you follow the Url you'll never make that mistake about it! It is the front door for most of the articles about Egypt that are on the net and sanctioned, if not actually requested by the Egyptian antiquities people from prominent Egyptologists for the site. As it says ,
"Some eight years ago it (Tour Egypt) went online with over 5,000 pages of information, and has grown to about 15,000 pages since then."

http://touregypt.net/sitemap.htm

Looking up Aten there I found this -
"The ancient Egyptian term for the disk of the sun was Aten, which is first evidenced during the Middle Kingdom, though of course solar worship begins much earlier in Egyptian history. It should be noted however that this term initially could be applied to any disk, including even the surface of a mirror or the moon. The term was used in the Coffin Texts to denote the sun disk, but in the 'Story of Sinuhe' dating from the Middle Kingdom, the word is used with the determinative for god (Papyrus Berlin 10499). In that story, Amenemhat I is described as soaring into the sky and uniting with Aten his creator.
Text written during the New Kingdom's 18th Dynasty frequently use the term to mean "throne" or "place" of the sun god. The word Aten was written using the hieroglyphic sign for "god" because the Egyptians tended to personify certain expressions. Eventually, the Aten was conceived as a direct manifestation of the sun god.

Though the Aten became particularly important during the New Kingdom reigns of Tuthmosis IV and Amenhotep III, mostly sole credit for the actual origin of the deity Aten must be credited to Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten). Even at the beginning of the New Kingdom, it's founder, Ahmose, is flattered on a stela by being likened to "Aten when he shines". His successor, Amenhotep I, becomes in death "united with Aten, coalescing with the one from whom he had come". Tuthmosis I was portrayed in his temple at Tombos in Nubia wearing the sun disk and followed by the hieroglyphic sign for 'god'. Hatshepsut used the term on her standing obelisk in the temple of Karnak to denote the astronomical concept of the disk, though it was actually during the reign of Amenhotep II that the earliest iconography of Aten appears on a monument at Giza as a winged sun disk (though this was a manifestation of Re) with outstretched arms grasping the cartouche of the pharaoh. "

So it seems that the Aten as a diety is mainly a New Kingdom thing and down to Tuthmosis 4th aka Akhenaten as I said.

http://www.sff.net/people/Lisanne/Viking/images/miut.gif

[Jayhawk]

Khnum could be another posibility. Another old river god, IIRC.

Bes, is one of my favourites.
http://www.eyrie.demon.nl/Travel/nc/images/bes.jpg

[Afterburner]

I expect we'll see Hathor.

[Pharaoh]

Don't forget Thoth, God of Wisdom. And what about Nephthys and Horus?? ;)

[Miut]

We're really only going to get the major dieties, I'm sure. ;)

[EmperorJay]

I still hope we'll see some references to the minor gods, like little altars on the streets, made by the people. That all adds to the feeling of running a city in which is being lived.

[Azeem]

What of mummified animals? The cult of Thoth produced mummified animals to sell to people as representations of the gods.

[Jayhawk]

Hmmm.
I wonder if we're see gods merging, replacing eachother. Re merging with Horus in Re-Horakte and similar effects.

[Miut]

It wasn't so much they merged one god into another, as that they took on aspects of each other .. it's complicated.
Take this - "Re (Ra) was the Egyptian sun god who was also often referred to as Re-Horakhty, meaning Re (is) Horus of the Horizon, referring to the god's character." (Tour Egypt)

There you have Re with the characteristics of Horus, but it is not at all a merging of the two gods.
The same argument applies to Sekhmet and Bast, whom popularist writers like to call "sister goddesses" - they are not at all! They are distinct from each other completely. Sure, Sekhmet lost popularity to Bast later on, but when Sekhmet was in vogue, the cat wasn't yet domesticated - we forget just how long the Ancient Egyptian culture lasted, and that dogs and cats weren't always domestic animals. Bast also didn't have a long or a far travelled popularity in Egypt, sadly. SHe came in later and mainly in the Delta region of Bubastis. Again, the gods tended to be local dieties that came to prominence because the Pharaoh or someone proominent came from that region - like Set's popularity during the raeigns of the Ramesses because they claimed him as an ancestor and were a family from the Delta.
Everything is connected, has a reason for happening, it is fascinating finding those connections rather than viewing it as a patch work of "facts".

Here's another example, again from Tour Egypt, but which is confirmed in a book I have on peotry from the Pyramid Texts and the Book of the Dead. Remember the Egyptians believed names held power.
"We have seen elsewhere that Râ, the type and symbol of God, is described as the god of "many names," and in that wonderful composition the XVIIth Chapter of the Book of the Dead, we have the following statement:--"I am the great god Nu, who gave birth unto himself, and who made his name to become the company of the gods." Then the question, "What does this mean?" or "Who is this?" is asked. And this is the answer: "It is Râ, the creator of the name[s] of his limbs, which came into being in the form of the gods who are in the following of Râ." From this we see that all the "gods" of Egypt were merely personifications of the NAMES Of Râ, and that each god was one of his members, and that a name of a god was the god himself."

So the gods are more closely linked than it appears unless you start really delving into their religion. Yet they are distinct too... they share aspects of each other because, in the end, there is only Amun /Amun-Ra.
I did say in a post elswehere here some time ago that the Ancient Egyptians are actually more monotheistic than we think. ;)

When I get my Religion book I can do a piece on this if anyone is interested. Me, I'm the kind of person that loves delving deep into these mysteries, studying them and teasing some coherence and understanding out of them for myself. ;)

Found this which explains it perhaps a bit better for now. ;)
http://www.crystalinks.com/ra.html

[Azeem]

I must say, Muit, that your knowledge of Egypt is extremely impressive. :) Are you an Egyptologist?

[Miut]

I wish - no, just a fiction a writer, and an avid researcher with a passion for Ancient Egypt and other ancient civilizations and how they developed - anthropology really. ;) School taught me how to find out what I wanted to know and as I've been on line for .. um.. about 8 years at least I think.. I learned early on how to research on the internet - I still often can't find what I need, but I know how to tell reputable sources from popularist ones, as Keith does too. He domes up with some wonderful stuff!

Once you start really looking into the subjects in depth, you find out the subtle links between things. Plus I am blessed in having good friends one of whom is a Doctor of History, the other who is an Archeologist and perpetiual student - and they share my passion for Egypt. Going to them taught me what sources to trust, and they have given me good Egyptian books as gifts. That always helps. To understand a now dead culture, you have to see it as the people in that time did - to bring it alive, you need to find the connections, the nuances between things that were everyday to them and a mystery for non-Egyptologists - that's the secret to really understanding them rather than having a dry historical knowledge of their "remains."

We are so lucky today to have available to us the best minds writing in a way that we as lay people can understand. Go back 30 years ago (I am 53) and the books then were dry as dust and for other people in the same field, not for the general public like us. Now Academics want to share their knowledge!

As I've said, I want to write a novel set somewhere in Ancient Egypt - maybe one based on the "reality" behind a myth - Set is looking really interesting right now - or it may be one based on a period, like Ramesses 2nd, but not about major historical players. I have a feeling the Set idea is the one I will use as I get to write about Pharaohs and about gods at the same time, and as they aren't historical characters, I can set it any time in Egypt's past I want. Readers like to be taken out of the humndum, to read about something exotic, and what could be more exotic than the court of Osiris, eh?

To do something like that you need to immerse yourself in the culture so it becomes as familiar to you as your own one - which takes time, good books, and other reliable sources. Meanwhile, we have to eat! So I do it in my leisure time, let it build up over the years, and one day, the idea will pop out demanding to be written. ;)

[Jayhawk]

Once more, interesting stuff.

I knew about the local pantheons growing/waning in prominence, I also know the Hellenes that showed up mapped their Greek gods to the Egyptian ones, mostly based on aspects (which IIRC mapped Seth to Typhon and Isis to Aphrodite). Some of these mappings made it all the way to Rome, where IIRC Isis was worshipped both in her own right aswell as an aspect of Venus.

The Ra issue is intersting, as it draws parallels with the Hindic views of the Brahman, the god of whom all the other gods are no more than aspects. I wonder how old it is, as it strongly suggest a monotheistic basis deep down inside Egyptian religion.

[Miut]

The poetry book I do have with me is now on the other coast from me - I am over in California for 2 weeks R&R with my boyfriebnd right now, so can't Post it! I have poetry from the earliest pyramid texts showing how the world was spoken into being etc, which well predates the Jewish faith and may show a common history for them both as it has strong parallels with Genesis.

I also foud a wonderfully beautiful one about a holy child being born, possibly Horus but I vcan't remember. Quite amazing indeed.

[Jayhawk]

Speaking of poetry, I remember reading translations of Egyptian poetry into Dutch, when I was still in highschool. IIRC, the bundle was called The Blind Harpist.

[neferamon]

Ma'at has to be in the game because Ma'at is similar to the law. Ma'at is the power where all the gods came from, and in every temple in egypt there is an altar or somthing to worship Ma'at ( it can also be called the law of justice) Ma'at is mostlly pictured as a woman spreding her wings. But it is not a god like Osiris, Amon or Anubis. It is very different and was worshiped in the whole ancient egypt. It also came with the first goods or even before that. And also Aton/Aten was only worshiped under pharaoh Akenaton. And during his reign he abolished all the other gods. When he died pharaoh Smencare took the old religion back and "killed" all belif about aton.
Amon is probobly the most important god because he is the "father" of all the other gods, he his best know as the hidden god. Only the Pharaoh and some priest knew how he looked. I think that some of the 14 gods will be:

Amon
Osiris
Thoth
Seth
Path
Ra
Anubis
Hapi
Hathor

[Traxia]

I know at one point (I think it was Tut-ankh-amun's father) decreed that there was just one god and ordered that all the other temple be destroyed or closed. The cult of Aten was to be his undoing. Akhenaten (Amenhotep IV) basically took Egypt into a one god society for his reign. Another interesting fact is that Tut-ankh-amun was originally named Tut-ankh-aten and changed his name in his second year of rule. Probably to distance himself from his heretic father and eldar brother.

So historically there's a lot of differences to the gods worshipped.

As I reckon this is too complicated to depict in COTN, I suggest:

Hapi, Ma'at, Bast, Set, Sobek, Hathor - ones we know are in the game
Anubis, Thoth, Bes, Imhotep, Ra, Nut, Geb, Hike

Although again many gods played different roles. Such as Anubis is stated as the God of Magic by some sources, where as Hike is also known as the god of magic. Just depends on who you ask.

Edit: I know that King Tut's name is all one word, I just like spelling it with hyphens...

[queenimperiale]

My guess would be the major Heliopolitan deities. These were the major ones that could be found in myths and such:

Nut- Goddess of the Sky. Mother of the Heliopolitan gods.

Osiris- God-King of the Underworld. Husband of Isis

Isis- Goddess of Magic. Wife of Osirirs. Since she has so many other aspects in Egyptian mythology, she is generally regarded as a Supreme Goddess.

Horus- God of the Winds. Son of Osiris and Isis.

Bast- Cat-Goddess. I would think that they would separate her from Sekhmet (her dark side), but maybe not. She is also associated with the dead, but it is very rare when she is associated with that aspect.

Thoth- God of the Moon and God of Scribes. He is usually associated with Hermes/Mercury in Greco-Roman myths.

Set- God of Chaos. He is considered the opposite force of Osiris.

Hathor- Goddess of Love and Beauty.

Geb- God of the Earth. Father of the Heliopolitan gods.

Anubis- God of Mummification. He is the gatekeeper between the living and dead realms.

Sobek- Crocodile-God.

Hapi- God of the Nile.

Ma'at- Goddess of Divine Justice

Amun-Ra- The Creator God of the Sun and Chief of the Pantheon.

There are also other gods that come to mind. Wadjet (the vulture-goddess of royal protection), Nephyths (goddess of shadows), and the scorpion goddess who I cannot remember the name at this time. But, I know that she was associated with protection. There were also some who were proclaimed gods to justify their rulership (hence Divine Right of Kings) or proclaimed by the Pharaoh for their deeds (like knighthood). For example, Imhotep was never a god. He was a great builder of pyramids. Cleopatra claimed herself as the Daughter of Isis, meaning she was a goddess in her own right, despite the fact that she had no Egyptian blood and was not related to any of the old kings and queens of Egypt.

[Traxia]

Nut is the goddess of the Firmament
Osiris is the god of the Underworld
Isis is queen of the gods
Horus the god of the living Pharoah/Light
Bast is the goddess of the sun, cats women and secrets
Sekhmet was a different goddess
Thoth was god of Wisdom and Scribes
Set was the god of darkness, evil, wind and storms
Hathor was goddess of music and dance
Anubis is the god of embalming, keeper of the gate and a god of magic
Sobek was the strength of pharaoh

[Azeem]

There were also some who were proclaimed gods to justify their rulership (hence Divine Right of Kings) or proclaimed by the Pharaoh for their deeds (like knighthood). For example, Imhotep was never a god. He was a great builder of pyramids. Cleopatra claimed herself as the Daughter of Isis, meaning she was a goddess in her own right, despite the fact that she had no Egyptian blood and was not related to any of the old kings and queens of Egypt.

Pharaoh Hatshepsut did the same thing. Since she was a woman (and Pharaohs were traditionally all male), she had to justify her reign by claiming that she recieved the right to rule by Ra himself.

[RSchwind]

I entered this forum and suddenly felt the need to go back to school. I am impressed with the collective knowledge of Egypt.

*quickly I bow and grovel backwards out of this thread*

[Master Builder]

as Vovan qouted "Osiris was originally a water or river god and eventually Hapi was identified with him. "
Hapi was the First God of the Nile when He passed on Osiris took his place

It seems that there were 3 eras of egyptians gods
Re Era, Osiris Era, Aten(or however you spell) era.

[Azeem]

Actually, each city had its own cult and it was usually where the capital was that determined the chief god. Thus the "chief god" was never always the same. It was Ptah, Ra, Osiris, Amun-Ra, Aten, etc. At least that is my impression of it. Of course, the more learned members here can tell you more.

[Hathornefer]

Well its not much of a guess... I recon Hathor is a cert. We have already seen a temple to her in the screenshots :p

Hath
x

[Traxia]

It seems Osiris's main job was nicking jobs of other gods...

First Hapi, then Anubis.

He also defrocked Set turning him into the bad guy (just because Set chopped him up...)

Honestly I don't know what was so great about Osiris...

[Ineti]

Honestly I don't know what was so great about Osiris...

We're 3000 years out of really understanding Osiris and the myths around him. Since his was one of the most followed religious cults in ancient Egypt, it stands to reason that the ancient Egyptians must have thought he was pretty spiffy. :)

[queenimperiale]

Actually, each city had its own cult and it was usually where the capital was that determined the chief god. Thus the "chief god" was never always the same. It was Ptah, Ra, Osiris, Amun-Ra, Aten, etc. At least that is my impression of it. Of course, the more learned members here can tell you more.

He's right. But, when the upper and lower kingdoms were united, the practice of placing a patron god of the city seemed to slowly diminish.

[queenimperiale]

It seems Osiris's main job was nicking jobs of other gods...

First Hapi, then Anubis.

He also defrocked Set turning him into the bad guy (just because Set chopped him up...)

Honestly I don't know what was so great about Osiris...

Well, Osiris was very important due to the role of the Pharoah. In practice, when the Pharaoh was living, he was the incarnate of Amun-Re (the Sun God). His wife was considered the incarnate of Isis (which would explain why some view her as Queen of the Gods). The Crown Prince of Egypt would be considered Horus, who is the son of both Isis and Osiris. When the king died, it is said that he takes the form of Osiris, thus now he is King of the Underworld. Then, the Crown Prince becomes Amun-Re and the new Crown Prince becomes Horus. Call it the Divine Cycle of Life.

[Master Builder]

That explains that. However wasn't Set also a War type god? (pharaoh) So wouldn't soldiers want a temple to Set? or The lionness?

[EmperorJay]

Yes, the soldiers especially want a temple to set. Quoted from the gods description (http://www.immortalcities.com/cotn/gameinfo/gods.php?god=Set) :

Soldiers and commanders often want to worship Set, the god of conflict and strife. If your army wins a battle, many citizens will feel moved to give thanks to the god. The people of Tanis have made Set their patron, and honor him frequently there... more for his power and his earliest deeds than for his disposition.

[Traxia]

We're 3000 years out of really understanding Osiris and the myths around him. Since his was one of the most followed religious cults in ancient Egypt, it stands to reason that the ancient Egyptians must have thought he was pretty spiffy. :)

Ay but he was an ursurper of other gods. Which tells me that his followers were powerful people with big shiny but above all sharp swords :D

[Traxia]

That explains that. However wasn't Set also a War type god? (pharaoh) So wouldn't soldiers want a temple to Set? or The lionness?

Before Set did the old choppity chop on Osiris he used to be the God of storms and winds. People used to worhip him to get the strength of the desert winds so in a way he was a war god.

Aparently what people think happened was there was a rebellion by Set worshipping people and as punishment the Pharaoh decreed that Set was the god of evil and their religeon was squished like a bug.

And once again I missed that this post went onto the next page...

Edit: and the lioness was sekhmet.
Edit (again) which begs the question, if sekhmet was the goddess of divine retribution and conquest, why in the game is set the god for the soldiers... seeing as originally the egyptians abandoned Set after he turned bad...

[Master Builder]

Sekhmet Thank you.
Ok so Warriors worship Set, and Sekhmet was a almight killer goddess So wouldn't warriors pray to her too for victory? as well as any other bloodthrist god/goddess?

[RAMasterBuilder]

hmm dont know about that one maybe?

[Ineti]

Ay but he was an ursurper of other gods. Which tells me that his followers were powerful people with big shiny but above all sharp swords :D

Or more likely was that the Egyptians' concepts of their gods changed over time, and the cult of Osiris gradually absorbed other gods' attributes. The Osiris cult also promoted eternal life and a good life after mortal death, so it's easy to see why it was popular. Life was important to the ancient Egyptians, so a god offering an afterlife that could be just as good was no doubt a popular god.

[Traxia]

From Tour Egypt:

Sekhmet

Patron of: divine retribution, vengeance, and conquest.

Appearance: a woman with the head of a lioness.

Description: Sekhmet means "The Mighty One," and she was one of the most powerful of the gods and goddesses. She was the goddess who meted out divine punishment to the enemies of the gods and of the pharaoh. In this capacity she was called the "Eye of Ra." She also accompanied the pharaoh into battle, launching fiery arrows into battle ahead of him. Sekhmet could also send plagues and disease against her enemies, but was sometimes invoked to avoid plague and cure disease.

Sekhmet's capacity for destruction is well-documented. In one story, Ra sends her to punish those mortals who have forgotten him and she ends up nearly destroying the entire human race. Only the cleverness of Ra stops her rampage before it consumes every living thing.

Worship: Worshipped as part of a triad made up of herself, her husband Ptah and their eldest child Nefertem, her cult center was at Memphis.


Seems to me she'd make a better choice than Set


Set

Other Names: Seth, Sutekh

Patron of: winds, storms, chaos, evil, darkness, strength, war, conflict, Upper Egypt.

Appearance: A man with the head of a jackal-like animal. In depictions of his battle with Horus he is often shown as a black pig or hippopotamus. Sometimes he is shown as a crocodile, perhaps a combination of him and the original god of evil, Apep. He is also shown as a man with red hair and eyes, or wearing a red mantle, the Egyptians believing that bright red was a color of evil.

Description: In early times Set was worshipped as the god of wind and the desert storms, and prayed to that he would grant the strength of the storms to his followers. Although he was always a dark and moody god, he was believed to be the ally of his brother and sister, Osiris and Isis, the counterpart to his sister-wife Nephthys, and the defender of their father, Ra.

But somewhere along the line the view of Set changed. He became a god of evil, in eternal conflict with the gods of light, and especially with Horus, the son of Osiris. Set became identified with his former enemy, the serpent Apep. By the XXVI Dynasty, Set was the major antagonist and embodiment of evil to the Egyptians. Why this change came about is unknown, but it is thought that some time after the unification of Egypt, the religion of Set fell into disfavor with the state religion, the worship of Ra and Osiris. It may be that there was open rebellion against the pharaoh Narmer (Menes) who unified Egypt under his rule, the rebellion failed and their beliefs were effectively quashed. Victors are known to rewrite history, it may be that they also rewrote the religion. It is an interesting idea to think that the struggle for the control of Egypt might have found its way into their core beliefs.

In the Legend of Osiris, Set kills Osiris and scatters his body, then claims the throne of the gods for his own. He is later struck down by Horus, the son of Osiris, who restores order to the world and sets up the pharaohs as the guardians of Maat. Set and Horus continue to battle for control of the world, setting up an epic conflict of good versus evil.

Worship: Not really worshipped after becoming a god of evil, but his religion was the major one for Upper Egypt until after the unification.


I'd really like a TM person to come and explain why they picked Set over Sekhmet. The only reason I can think of was that otherwise she'd be confused with Bast.

[queenimperiale]

This is where it gets kind of complicated. Besides Re being a Sun God, so was Bast. Now, Bast was a gentle goddess. Sekhmet was her opposite. So, while the sun was used to help grow things and continue the cycle of life, Sekhmet's aspect was more destructive. Set was simply an evil god. When people prayed to Set, it was like using evil for evil. With Sekhmet, it was merely to persuade her not to do harm onto Egypt (like causing a drought or whatever).

[Traxia]

With Sekhmet, it was merely to persuade her not to do harm onto Egypt (like causing a drought or whatever).

I think it would be Hapi that you prayed to for that :) Egyptians sure did make life complicated for themselves didn't they... I bet they did it to have something to talk about during the innundation...

[Azeem]

I think one mistake that we're making is that we're looking at Egyptian religion as a unit. It's more of a collection of cults and local religions from place to place.

How about an example to explain this concept: Similarly, in what we call "Hinduism," which is much more of a collection of different religions with some similar aspects. Within each of these religions, the god of the region of that particular religion is the chief "God" figure. Thus some people worship Shiva as while others worship Kali as the chief "God" figure. There are some connections between different religions because they are close to one another geographically and culturally. I think a similar thing can be said about Egyptian religion. Actually, the concept of "Religion" is very much foreign to much of the world prior to the Age of Exploration as many cultures did not even have a word for "religion", as it is very much a Judeo-Christian concept.

So basically, we can't say for sure that one god served a very specific purpose. Beliefs change over time. :)

[Traxia]

I thought Hindus believed in one god and that god had many manifestations...

Then again the Religeous Education lesson that I'm basing this on was many years ago.

[Azeem]

Religions we frequently (and sometimes mistakenly ;) ) call "polytheistic" are extraordinarily complicated to us that way. I think it's because we're so accustomed to our notions on what a "religion" is. :)

[Miut]

Sekhmet was protector of Pharaoh therefore I doubt any warrior would look to her for protection - but he would propitiate her to avoid her chaotic warrior nature.

I will look out some stuff when I am settled in here about Osiris et al. and try to simplify it. Problems happen when you think in picket fence ways about Egyptian Gods and what they were "in charge of". It isn't that simple. ;) You have, as I posted in another Thread, Ra-Hakerty which is Ra with overtones of Horus, NOT a blending or taking over of Horus' functions.

Pharaoh wasn't seen as Osisris until he died, then he was the Osiris Pharaoh. The heir to the crown was always seen as Horus-in-the-nest, the young Horus. They are aspects and not necessarily distinct functions.

As for their multiplicity of deities making life complicated, no, it didn't. The Gods were aspects of their natural world who manifested in the powers of nature. Remember they saw no difference between a person, a god/ess or an animal - they had none of the artificial divisions modern religion gave us as to whether animals have souls . All living things had a ba and a ka - one wandered when they were asleep, the other was analagous, loosley, to a soul and was driven from the body at death and couldn't return till the body was prop[erly embalmed. (if memory serves me)

It is only us, from our 21st C perspective, who need to simplify it and then come adrift. It is easier if you accept they believed this and work from that point rather than turn it into modern logic. Well, it works for me, at least. ;)

http://www.sff.net/people/Lisanne/Viking/images/miut.gif

[Traxia]

I thought it was Sobek that was Pharoah's body guard...

People say how magnificent the Egyptians were but they had no forward planning. They never wrote anywhere 'this is what the gods do and why so stop arguing' for the future generations... Sure they made pyramids that lasted millenia but care and consideration for archeologists....

Or maybe they did know what confusion it would cause and planned accordingly :D

[Miut]

http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/sekhmet.htm

"She also accompanied the pharaoh into battle, launching fiery arrows into battle ahead of him."
also
http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/sekhmet2.htm

She's also known as a healer.
As I said, Traxia, Egyptian religion isn't that simple - if you look at it through modern eyes. ;)

[Traxia]

While you're at Tour Egypt, look up Sobek :) You will find:
The son of Neith, Sobek was a sort of bodyguard to various gods, especially Ra and Set (in his original form), and was seen as having a similar function for the pharaoh. In times of need, he gives the pharaoh strength and fortitude so that he may overcome all obstacles. He also protects the pharaoh from all harm, especially evil magic.

[imhotep3147]

My two cents worth:

It has been my understanding that Set is the "god of war/destruction" as it pertains to military and the like. Sekhmet is the "warrior goddess/goddess of destruction, etc. " in a more personal way, like it was said in this thread early.....righteous retribution....in that way she was kinda related to Ma'at (in a roundabout way). Just my take on it though.
But for the most part Egyptian religion was confusing for the simple fact that we're looking at over 3,000 years worth of ideas and beliefs. Not to mention that the Egyptian empire was HUGE at its high point in history. Meaning that what Osiris was in the north was not necessarily what he was in the south.....take into account that while "insert god of choice here" was known in the larger city centers in one place.....outlying villages may have never heard of them.

Now on the subject of Set as he pertains to Osiris.......I'm not touching that one until after I read up on it.....I think I still have my notes on that whole ordeal somewheres. I'll be back with em sometime tomorrow. :D

[Traxia]

O my brothers and my sisters, gather around me that I may tell the tale of the Before-Time, of the Golden Age when the gods walked upon the earth with us. Know then that in those ancient days, long before even the grandfather of our Pharaoh's grandfather was born, Osiris the great-grandson of Ra sat upon the throne of the gods, ruling over the living world as Ra did over the gods. He was the first Pharaoh, and his Queen, Isis, was the first Queen. They ruled for many ages together, for the world was still young and Grandmother Death was not as harsh as she is now.

His ways were just and upright, he made sure that Maat remained in balance, that the law was kept. And so Maat smiled upon the world. All peoples praised Osiris and Isis, and peace reigned over all, for this was the Golden Age.

Yet there was trouble. Proud Set, noble Set, the brother of Osiris, he who defended the Sun Boat from Apep the Destroyer, was unsettled in his heart. He coveted the throne of Osiris. He coveted Isis. He coveted the power over the living world and he desired to take it from his brother. In his dark mind he conceived of a plot to kill Osiris and take all from him. He built a box and inscribed it with wicked magic that would chain anyone who entered it from escaping.

Set took the box to the great feast of the gods. He waited until Osiris had made himself drunk on much beer, then challenged Osiris to a contest of strength. Each one in turn would enter the box, and attempt, through sheer strength, to break it open. Osiris, sure in his power yet feeble in mind because of his drink, entered the box. Set quickly poured molten lead into the box. Osiris tried to escape, but the wicked magic held him bound and he died. Set then picked up the box and hurled it into the Nile where it floated away.

Set claimed the throne of Osiris for himself and demanded that Isis be his Queen. None of the other gods dared to stand against him, for he had killed Osiris and could easily do the same to them. Great Ra turned his head aside and mourned, he did not stand against Set.

This was the dark time. Set was everything his brother was not. He was cruel and unkind, caring not for the balance of Maat, or for us, the children of the gods. War divided Egypt, and all was lawless while Set ruled. In vain our people cried to Ra, but his heart was hardened by grief, and he would not listen.

Only Isis, blessed Isis, remembered us. Only she was unafraid of Set. She searched all of the Nile for the box containing her beloved husband. Finally she found it, lodged in a tamarisk bush that had turned into a mighty tree, for the power of Osiris still was in him, though he lay dead. She tore open the box and wept over the lifeless body of Osiris. She carried the box back to Egypt and placed it in the house of the gods. She changed herself into a bird and flew about his body, singing a song of mourning. Then she perched upon him and cast a spell. The spirit of dead Osiris entered her and she did conceive and bear a son whose destiny it would be to avenge his father. She called the child Horus, and hid him on an island far away from the gaze of his uncle Set.

She then went to Thoth, wise Thoth, who knows all secrets, and implored his help. She asked him for magic that could bring Osiris back to life. Thoth, lord of knowledge, who brought himself into being by speaking his name, searched through his magic. He knew that Osiris' spirit had departed his body and was lost. To restore Osiris, Thoth had to remake him so that his spirit would recognize him and rejoin. Thoth and Isis together created the Ritual of Life, that which allows us to live forever when we die. But before Thoth could work the magic, cruel Set discovered them. He stole the body of Osiris and tore it into many pieces, scattering them throughout Egypt. He was sure that Osiris would never be reborn.

Yet Isis would not despair. She implored the help of her sister Nephthys, kind Nephthys, to guide her and help her find the pieces of Osiris. Long did they search, bringing each piece to Thoth that he might work magic upon it. When all the pieces were together, Thoth went to Anubis, lord of the dead. Anubis sewed the pieces back together, washed the entrails of Osiris, embalmed him wrapped him in linen, and cast the Ritual of Life. When Osiris' mouth was opened, his spirit reentered him and he lived again.

Yet nothing that has died, not even a god, may dwell in the land of the living. Osiris went to Duat, the abode of the dead. Anubis yielded the throne to him and he became the lord of the dead. There he stands in judgment over the souls of the dead. He commends the just to the Blessed Land, but the wicked he condemns to be devoured by Ammit.

When Set heard that Osiris lived again he was wroth, but his anger waned, for he knew that Osiris could never return to the land of the living. Without Osiris, Set believed he would sit on the throne of the gods for all time. Yet on his island, Horus, the son of Osiris and Isis, grew to manhood and strength. Set sent many serpents and demons to kill Horus, but he defeated them. When he was ready, his mother Isis gave him great magic to use against Set, and Thoth gave him a magic knife.

Horus sought out Set and challenged him for the throne. Set and Horus fought for many days, but in the end Horus defeated Set and castrated him. But Horus, merciful Horus, would not kill Set, for to spill the blood of his uncle would make him no better than he. Set maintained his claim to the throne, and Horus lay claim himself as the son of Osiris. The gods began to fight amongst another, those who supported Horus and those who supported Set. Banebdjetet leaped into the middle and demanded that the gods end this struggle peacefully or Maat would be imbalanced further. He told the gods to seek the council of Neith. Neith, warlike though wise in council, told them that Horus was the rightful heir to the throne. Horus cast Set into the darkness where he lives to this day.

And so it is that Horus watches over us while we live, and gives guidance to the Pharaoh while he lives, and his father Osiris watches over us in the next life. So it is that the gods are at peace. So it is that Set, wicked Set, eternally strives for revenge, battling Horus at every turn. When Horus wins, Maat is upheld and the world is at peace. When Set wins, the world is in turmoil. But we know that dark times do not last forever, and the bright rays of Horus will shine over us again. In the last days, Horus and Set will fight one last time for the world. Horus will defeat Set forever, and Osiris will be able to return to this world. On that day, the Day of Awakening, all the tombs shall open and the just dead shall live again as we do, and all sorrow shall pass away forever.

Lo, this is my tale. Keep it in your hearts and give it to others, as I gave it to you.


This is the story of Osiris and Set. Did you know that the forum won't let you post just quotes?

[Traxia]

Just one question... how can a box filled with lead float?

[Miut]

Very nice, Traxia. ;) Can you give me a source for it, please? The language is so biblical in phraseology and usage, itmakes me wonder how modern a translation it is, or if it has been spiced up to sound better. We all know of the biblical inconsistancies due to translations - poisoner became witch, maiden of marriageable age became virgin etc. Also so much progress has been made in the last few years in understanding the ancient Egyptian languages (demotic was the final version) that older papyruses and other inscriptions are now being retranslated in light of current knowledge - with some very interesting results when compared to earlier and less accurate versions.

There are just so many personal Egyptian sites out there - not to mention those of folk who know they are a priest/priestess reborn, or who are running a modern "Egyptian Temple" they way they think they were run - I've seen so many over the years I've been researching that I can spot one in the name of the site url alone now.

One has to be so careful to get really historically accurate info and translations. University sites or museum ones are the best, along with Tour Egypt. Anything hosted on a free site like geocities, angelfire etc is not that reliable as professional folk in the main arrcheology fields usually use their University sites or have Domains.


As for a box of lead floating - well, steel ships, and even concrete ones from WW2 in the UK, floated. Depends how much of the interior is lead. Ships have loading lins, once called the Plimsol Line I believe, to show the lowest they can safely sit in the water. They all carry ballast, and as lead is the heaviest normal material, pound for poud, often it is lead they carry - or maybe sand. Hot Air Balloons carry sand weights I know.
http://www.sff.net/people/Lisanne/Viking/images/miut.gif

[Miut]

This is where it gets kind of complicated. Besides Re being a Sun God, so was Bast. Now, Bast was a gentle goddess. Sekhmet was her opposite. So, while the sun was used to help grow things and continue the cycle of life, Sekhmet's aspect was more destructive. Set was simply an evil god. When people prayed to Set, it was like using evil for evil. With Sekhmet, it was merely to persuade her not to do harm onto Egypt (like causing a drought or whatever).

queenimperiale, Bast was a latecommer on the scene and should not be confused with Sekhmet. Sekhmet's opposite, if you need it put that way, was Hathor. They are two sides of the one passion - rage that can be coaxed to placidity and love that turns to hate. All this is shown in the story of how humanity fell from grace and Ra turned his eye loose on them in the form of Sekhmet. He had to trick her to stop the slaughter by giving her 7,000 jugs of beer dyed with red ochre that she though was blood. She was then pacified into the drunken sweetness as exemplified by Hathor, the loving cow and the loving mistress.

For real info on Bast, please read here - http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232
I did an in depth article on the Cat in Egyptian Religion, and the emergence of Bastest as a goddess - the name means only "She of the City of Bast" actually. It is worth reading and is from a book by Stephen Quirke pub by Britsh Museum Press.

"Bastet was a goddess without a real name; hers means "She of the city of Bast." The lion god Mahes, Miysis or Mios was regarded as her son. The goddesss soon became linked with other localities, particularly Memphis, perhaps through assimilation with another goddess represented as a lioness, Sekhmet, a companion of Ptah. She was also closely associated with Hathor, Mut and Isis. She's also associated with New Year wishes perhaps because those 5 epagomenal days left over in the year are associated with Sekhmet because they are considered dangerous days.
It is reasonably certain that the rise to greater prominence of the female cat coincided with the rise of Bubastis during the twenty second dynasty (945-715 BC) Here we have the king named Pamiu - the Tomcat.The head of a lioness and a female cat are difficult to distinguish apart in Egyptian art. The lioness represented strength and ferocity, the household cat, playful and affectionate.
Child bearing and nurturing insticts featured prominently in the character of both Bastet and other goddesses who manifested themselves as lionesses and the king is often called their son."
And earlier in the piece,
"The earliest representations of the cat in a religious context seem to have been the so called magic knives that were important in Middle Kingdom tombs. They are curved, narrow and flat and made of hippo ivory, and vaguely resemble ceremonial flint knives. They are decorated with a variety of animals and curious creatures, demi-gods, including long necked animals resembling giraffes but initially based perhaps n the cheetah. These were nightmarish representations of the world of popular beliefs rather than the representation of the religion of temple walls."

Sekhmet predates this by several thousand years. Sekhmet is tied to the original pre-dynastic creation myths, Bast was nowhere on the scene at that time, I am afraid.

I will do a Post on Sekhmet shortly, when I get organized here - still trying to find essential installation CD's aftert this last move right now..

http://www.sff.net/people/Lisanne/Viking/images/miut.gif

[queenimperiale]

[QUOTE=Miut]queenimperiale, Bast was a latecommer on the scene and should not be confused with Sekhmet. Sekhmet's opposite, if you need it put that way, was Hathor.

Bast was associated with Hathor, Sekhmet was not associates with the goddess of love and beauty (Hathor). It is true that Sekhmet predates Bast, but, as Egypt became united and different Pharaohs proclaimed themselves as gods, the Pharaoh began to assimilate different gods from different areas regardless of their original myths.

They are two sides of the one passion - rage that can be coaxed to placidity and love that turns to hate. All this is shown in the story of how humanity fell from grace and Ra turned his eye loose on them in the form of Sekhmet. He had to trick her to stop the slaughter by giving her 7,000 jugs of beer dyed with red ochre that she though was blood. She was then pacified into the drunken sweetness as exemplified by Hathor, the loving cow and the loving mistress.

That was not really assimilating her with Hathor. It was just "taming the beast". Isis was both gentle and cruel at times, but it never meant that she was assimilated with Hathor or Set. Think of Bast and Sekhmet as Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. They are both the same being, but different aspects.

[Miut]

Not according to my books on Egyptian religion. I have researched both Sekhmet and Set/Seth/Setekh/Setesh thoroughly and will Post an article compiled from 3 sources later tonight.

Also, and convincingly, there is "The Book of the Divine Cow in which the goddess Hathor turns into the terrifying goddess Sekhmet and punishes those who plotted against her father Ra." This is the source for the story of Sekhmet slaughtering humanity and being only stopped with the jars of dyed beer.

For a taster from what I will be putting up - "The two goddesses, raging Sekhmet and content Hathor, act as two sides of the same nature, extreme expressions of a single passion, the rage that can be coaxed back to placidity, or the love that turns to hate. Fury is expressed in pharonic art as a lion, embodying the power to destroy enemies, and a range of protective goddesses were represented in this form. Modern onlookers are often baffled by the use of the same imagery for different deities, image and name combine in every instance to form a differently nuanced expression of one central theme, the protective power of a dangerous force."

This is from the Stephen Quirke book on Ancient Egyptian Religion - he's a member of the Antiquities Dept of the British Museum. I won't include his bibliography or the colleagues he thanks in the preface for their help in compiling the book, but his credentials are excellent. Not just that, but this view is also echoed in 2 other sources I have. Thus I trust it.

Hathor is described by him as Mistress of the Western desert, which does tie her again to Sekhmet, and "..the goddess who answered Egyptian aspirations in the the entire area we subdivide into love, marriage and motherhood. She is woman in the role of sexual partner, a cow in her role as tender mother." The king also placed himself under her tutelage and her name indicates an original royal role as the 'house of Horus' either as wife or mother of the god. And that again comes back to Sekhmet as destroyer/protector of the king. She's also known as goddess of the southern sycamore at Memphis.

I know what I am finding out flies in the face of the popular coffee table cut down descriptions of the gods and goddesses, but that's why I am writing them up for folk here - to know the reality that Egyptologists know, rather than the pop version. I have always felt pytting picket fences round a deity's supposed areas of action/expertise was a somewhat false way to look at it. I find this confirmed with everything I read about ancient Egypt. However, I understand it is the easiest way to do it. ;)

As for Bast and Hathor being linked - I don't believe I've come across one single reliable reference to that. If you have, please mention them as I am always genuinely eager to learn more from reliable sources.

From my Cat in Egyptian Religion post,
"It is reasonably certain that the rise to greater prominence of the female cat coincided with the rise of Bubastis during the twenty second dynasty (945-715 BC) Here we have the king named Pamiu - the Tomcat."

Here is the chronology from the same place.
"Domestication in ancient Egypt can be seen along these lines,
c.4000 BC - first permanent settlements with granaries and silos appear and provide the basic pre-conditions needed for the meeting with cats - Fels sylvestris libyca.
c 4000-2000 BC - Cats and humans establish contact and develop symbiotic relationship based on mutual advantagwes. This gradually leads to domesticatio - it seems the chaus, the swamp cat, plays little part in this.
c.2000-1000 BC - The fully domesticated cat is a permanent member fo tthe Egyptian household as an economic and companion animal.
c. 1000 BC - AD 350 - Because they are now regarded as manifestations of certain deities, particularly Bastet the goddess, cats are also bred in large numbers in temple catteries."
This is why I said Bast as a goddess came late on the scene, far later than Hathor who was one of the original Ennead - that's the original 9 creation god/desses.

Wait till you read about the 7 yearly sacrifice of the King that ended with the pharaohs in the pyramids! Yes, they practiced human sacrifice then.

EDIT: Found this on Tour Egypt site which also prves my point about Hathor and Sekhmet being 2 aspects of the same force -
http://touregypt.net/featurestories/celestrialcow.htm

"Afterwards, Hathor was sent to inflict her punishment. For three nights the goddess Hathor-Sekhmet waded about in the blood of men, the slaughter beginning at Hensu (Herakleopolis Magna).. But the sun god took pity on those humans who were left. He saved them by causing Hathor to become drunk on blood red beer."

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/underworld.htm
Here are references to the other books of the underworld.

http://www.sff.net/people/Lisanne/Viking/images/miut.gif