On The Origin Of The Species

[nexusdog]

Now it seems relatively more reasonable round here, I'd like to pose a few questions, not rhetorical ones, however.

Chris, et al.

At what stage does the design doc diverge from customer driven content? Is it an evolving 'ad hoc' concept agreed by yourselves & EA (who obviously like what you've come up with) which will stay true to it's spec in spite of what the punter wants (or think they want - can you sell them something they don't want?)

OK, it's not a democratic process but also, where along the line does customer input make an appearance, as well as a difference? Control groups, etc - yeah, we're in the realm of NDA's and so on. Or do you just go for it and let the sales tell the tale?

I have my own thoughts & ideas on SC, so what's the best format to use in describing them to get your attention and myself understood?

Do you guys have any experience of procedurally generated content - additionally, what's your views and do you intend to use this model of delivery at any stage?

What's the specifics of the EA deal - one title, or something more....? Go on, tantalize us.

Could you tell me what drugs you're prescribed to deal with the thoughtful and reasonable comments made here over the past month - my meds are almost up and I need something stronger. :)

One of the biggest frustrations is lack of feedback, in every walk of life, so guys, please, if you can, try to find time to discuss with us concepts, ideas and brainstorming of useful issues. Personally, I'd break it down into subjects such as transport, industry and so on... you get the idea.

Appreciate the time you take to read this.

Cheers guys.

[mouse]

Sadly I think your going to disappointed becase TM doesn't answer your very reasonable questions;) Usually developers are bound by an NDA with in this case EA controlling all information released about the game. We ran into the same thing witth Caesar 4 because Sierra/VU own the title copy write. TM couldn't even release screenshots without Sierra/VU's approval.

[Lenny Eusebi]

Well, I can't comment on the details of the development process or agreements between EA and TM, but as far as posting your thoughts go, we definitely read these boards and think about everything posted. Any thoughts you have about what you'd like to see from a Sim City game are quite welcome (and comments specifically directed towards SimCity Societes should go in the SimCity Societies - General forum).

Generally, we can't respond directly to input from posters, but that doesn't mean your input has been ignored.

[Dani McDowell]

Yeah, that's kind of the way of things. And it's not that we don't want to answer questions and talk about the game--we really, really do. It's just that we like our jobs. :p

I think I can say without getting into too much trouble that there is a lot of misinformation out there about this game in terms of public opinion about what the game consists of, and the vast majority of the information that was real at one time has either been changed somewhat or is completely out of date. That is the nature of game development. Also, certain people (non-TM) have posted a wide variety of random stuff as fact that is patently false. I know it's hard to know what's true and what's not true when everybody is throwing around wild speculation, months old demos and screenshots, and the developers don't confirm or deny anything. Like I said, it's not that we don't want to :)

Most people here do read the TM forums and we do take into account the opinions of the people who post them, especially if they are reasonably well thought out.

[nexusdog]

Lenny, Dani, thanks for responding, I appreciate your time.

Of course, you couldn't be specific - I don't know quite what I was thinking... wasn't worded very well, sorry.

Let's just turn things around for a second though, just for the sake of curiosity - assuming you guys have researched or played SC's various incarnations, then what were the things which bugged, annoyed and felt there was room for improvement? Obviously, the hard core fans have done more than that, having evolved a thriving modding community with some absolutely stunning creations which are imaginative and of a quality some developers should be embarrassed.

That's what you're essentially competing with - dedication, talent and imagination, and all of it done for the love of a game, not a pay check, not satisfying a shareholder. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

I read the latest copy of the UK edition of PC Gamer with interest, especially the SCS article on page 10 (I've posted the gory details in the 'you killed simcity' thread).

Guys, if you're hedging your bets on one SC title, with SCS, you've missed a bet if there isn't another 'real' SC title in the works.

ETA - November... you got three months, guys. Best of luck and thanks for replying.

2 devs in one short post. I think that counts as a result.

Cheers guys

[Mike Lattiak]

That's what you're essentially competing with - dedication, talent and imagination, and all of it done for the love of a game, not a pay check, not satisfying a shareholder. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?


I found this part of your post rather interesting. My history in a mod community comes from Rainbow Six (the original up to the third installment). I spent years in the community developing a lot of gun, single player, and multiplayer map mods. I did that for, as you put it, the love of the game.

That level of dedication is usually what causes a person to turn his career into game development. I, of course, can't speak for all of the people in the industry -- but I can say that it is very difficult to find someone you are working with that doesn't share in this passion. The long hours and stressful crunch times are usually something that would drive away a person who doesn't want to be in this industry for his love of games.

So, I do hope you are not implying that everyone here only looks for that next paycheck. You will essentially find the same level of dedication in the mod community as you will find in a place like this. Only, it is on quite a larger scale.

[Natasha]

I just wanted to chime in on what Mike was saying (and of course drive the number of devs responding to small thread up of course). :-)
I would credit my love of games and gaming as what started me down a career path in computers to begin with. When I later found out I could make a living just working on games, I jumped for it faster than you could say Jack Sprat.


Natasha
"As always mad as a hatter. . . ."

[nexusdog]

I found this part of your post rather interesting. My history in a mod community comes from Rainbow Six (the original up to the third installment). I spent years in the community developing a lot of gun, single player, and multiplayer map mods. I did that for, as you put it, the love of the game.

That level of dedication is usually what causes a person to turn his career into game development. I, of course, can't speak for all of the people in the industry -- but I can say that it is very difficult to find someone you are working with that doesn't share in this passion. The long hours and stressful crunch times are usually something that would drive away a person who doesn't want to be in this industry for his love of games.

So, I do hope you are not implying that everyone here only looks for that next paycheck. You will essentially find the same level of dedication in the mod community as you will find in a place like this. Only, it is on quite a larger scale.

Hi Mike,

No, no implied or veiled meanings. What I was thinking was that the fans are, as you were, in a position to focus their energies to a degree where they are still very passionate about the game and its longevity and more importantly, future potential. Hence, the ah, heartfelt responses we've witnessed.

The only difference, however, is you perhaps are a little more constrained by commercial reality than we are. Is it not possible you have to compromise artistic & creative drives in order to satisfy the marketplace - both by your employers and to some degree, the customer also? The latter, however, seems to be different from our perspective - you're after a product which will sell, has a target base (for the sake of argument, Sims players) and to appeal to both audiences (SC & Sim players), which can either make or dilute a concept by trying to be too many things for too many people - diversification as a means to capture a bigger slice of the pie, can have the opposite to the desired outcome.

I consider myself told, however, now you've explained your background and admit to being profoundly jealous of your position. :)

Thanks again for your time, I've enjoyed your comments - much appreciated.

Cheers guys

[nexusdog]

I just wanted to chime in on what Mike was saying (and of course drive the number of devs responding to small thread up of course). :-)
I would credit my love of games and gaming as what started me down a career path in computers to begin with. When I later found out I could make a living just working on games, I jumped for it faster than you could say Jack Sprat.


Natasha
"As always mad as a hatter. . . ."

You certainly know how to bring a man to his knees, I'll say that!

You live the dream. We just dream :)

[Mike Lattiak]

The only difference, however, is you perhaps are a little more constrained by commercial reality than we are. Is it not possible you have to compromise artistic & creative drives in order to satisfy the marketplace - both by your employers and to some degree, the customer also? The latter, however, seems to be different from our perspective - you're after a product which will sell, has a target base (for the sake of argument, Sims players) and to appeal to both audiences (SC & Sim players), which can either make or dilute a concept by trying to be too many things for too many people - diversification as a means to capture a bigger slice of the pie, can have the opposite to the desired outcome.



I'd like to start off by saying thanks for being very polite and professional in your responses. Their is a strong reason why people here have been replying to your thread!

As for this quote I shoved above this response, you are correct in the notion that we are a little more constrained by the commercial reality than the modding community. As fascinated as I am in the design process and how all of the cogs work together, if you notice on the front page I joined this project relatively late. So, I would not be the best person to discuss this with. I do have some knowledge of the experience just from the game development school I went to -- combined with being on several smaller projects to make basically freeware titles. Although they have a lot of similarities, it isn't exactly the same as a large scale company, so it would be inappropriate for me to discuss them. I'll leave that one up to the professionals!

There is also the notion of not being able to discuss the game. So responses here will be generally limited and information given about the game is not in our hands. It's unfortunate for fans who have been foaming at the mouth looking for information recently -- and trust me, it can be quite painful for me as well! As Dani said earlier, seeing people post false statements regarding the game only to have them perceived as the truth -- is quite disheartening.

[Romaq]

I'd also like to point out the people on the software end of the stick generally work for less money than people writing software for 'boring stuff' like business applications, database management, and so on. Generally speaking, that is. If you write software for games, you pay a premium for the privilage because of the number of people who *also* want in on the job, and you have to bid against them on your paycheck. People doing the job for money are *not* going to write software for games. They are going to write software nobody will ever see or care about, unless it DOESN'T work right, like your ATM, bank balance and airline fight ticket reservations. At THAT point in time, big money is involved in you NOT perceiving anything other than 'it works'. Games are sexy. Airline flight reservations are NOT sexy. By the way, it's the same in the airline industry. It's 'sexy' to be in the airline business. People doing that line of work are generally not paid very well at all, and for the same reasons as with game programmers. They do it for love, not money so much.

And as for truth, the Wizard's First Rule still applies: People will believe any lie they want to be true, or fear might be true. Since the SC4 hardcore religious types intensely fear 'bad things' about SC:S, lies about the game are quite easy to swallow.

--Romaq

[nexusdog]

I'd like to start off by saying thanks for being very polite and professional in your responses. Their is a strong reason why people here have been replying to your thread!


Mike, it's a pleasure - my pleasure, I assure you, to have the opportunity to talk to you guys. Especially so, considering the time constraints you're under and workloads, so thanks for finding the time.

You mention the design process and your interest in it, it's something I love as well, when I see games - design, plus continued potential through modding. I'm a strong believer in providing editing tools with games because it's all about giving the customer more than a vanilla package, plus everyone get's a good feeling; customers get bonus material, so to speak, you guys get kudos from us for providing it - it's being thoughtful about your audience, really, wouldn't you agree?

I may not be very good at games generally, but when I enjoy something, I yearn for more, crave it, even. And yes, I'd like to see something I can get my teeth into have longevity - something unputdownable, as they say. And that's what exactly's happened with SC4's modding community, as we are well aware. But, I wonder, how often is that thought of as a legitimate design element outside FPS's? That's the reason I'm excited about PGC (procedurally generated content - don't ask me to write that out again, it's hard work! :)) and what it means for the future, for you guys and us.

You know, in terms of customer support (as in fans, not vice versa), it must be quite a feeling to see something you've created manage to be sustained long after it's release date. I'm afraid I don't know how your titles work, if there is a similar modding community, but you have a very loyal and articulate fanbase and that's something worth nurturing - this is probably the only industry that gets the customer on their side (perhaps with the exception of the music industry I guess) and I see it's a kinda love/hate relationship at times, as we've recently witnessed. But yeah, it's all very rock n' roll and knowing there are people who think your work is something worth cherishing, speaking up for (be it either way) and have communication to devs like yourselves, it's all pretty groovy, I'd say.

Thanks again, Mike & crew, much appreciated

You're my kind of nerds, just thought I'd add that after thought :)

(posting from work so apologies if this is difficult to read - writing during lunchbreak!)