Building Variety in SimCity 4 vs SimCity: Societies

[Ocram]

Here are some pictures to showcase the variety of buildings in a low-wealth/industrial city in SimCity 4.
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/8634/steeltownfederalprisonoy0.gif http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/6056/steeltownretailstoresah4.gif http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3977/steeltownsmallshopsqu7.gif http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/4089/steeltownsmallshopsatnicm1.gif http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1138/steeltownpetroleummv1.gif http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1138/steeltownfactorymillhe7.gif http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/6295/steeltownrix5.gif http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7139/steeltownlowrentapartmetg5.gif http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/4238/steeltowntenementuq3.gif http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5534/steeltownoilpowerplantmh2.gif
By azemocram (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/azemocram) at 2007-08-06

Edit (october 2007): Thank You for that image of the beer factory/distillery. Azeem, the variety of the residential gets bigger when you add chicago 1900s or more commercial -- even more if you use custom content -- but still vanilla SC4 has little building variety (I only bought deluxe so I never experienced that), furthermore i only used New York 1920s for the most part (exept for about 5 buildings, half of those being middle wealth). Nakia, neither I nor you would want to live in any of my industrial cities (even when they're not much worse than Tacoma...). I'd rather live in one of my -- oftentimes terraced--
coastal or my (flat, square) island cities with 200 EQ middle and upper class highrises.

[ManagerJosh]

I might be wrong, but aren't those buildings not stock buildings in SimCity 4 ?

[John-SJ]

Ocram, I don't see the point of this thread. Since you have no way of posting buildings from SC:S it seems to me that any comparison is going to be a tad one sided.

Pherhaps you should shelve this thread until SC:S is released and then make your comparison.

[King Faticus]

Also it is only fair to judge it against stock vanilla Simcity 4
and since simcity Societies isn't an expansion no Rush hour either;)

[Azeem]

There's hardly any variety in those screenshots, especially in the third screenshot where there's just row after row of rowhouses and brick apartments. SC4 vanilla (no Rush Hour, no mods) was limited only to *one* architectural style and was horribly repetitve in appearance. I doubt there were any more than 50 or so individual building types. It really wasn't until we got Rush Hour that we had some fabulous new peices of architectural specimens.

[Rnett]

There's hardly any variety in those screenshots, especially in the third screenshot where there's just row after row of rowhouses and brick apartments. SC4 vanilla (no Rush Hour, no mods) was limited only to *one* architectural style and was horribly repetitve in appearance. I doubt there were any more than 50 or so individual building types. It really wasn't until we got Rush Hour that we had some fabulous new peices of architectural specimens.

Oh you mean like this.....:eek:

20465

[David Beebe]

Borrowing from ManagerJosh's E3 shots
It doesn't showcase the building variety (trust me there is variety) But it does capture the grit and feel of an industrial low wealth area.

http://forums.worldsims.org/gallery/showimage.php?i=3358&c=67

[MarkDuffy]

That image is excellent, David.

Who used the money cheat? :eek:

[ManagerJosh]

That image is excellent, David.

Who used the money cheat? :eek:
I think Jeff did. :D

[MarkDuffy]

I think Jeff did. :D

Or Matt. They are soooo busted! :D

[Sim Nation]

Nice indusrial image , what is it meant to be exactly ? looks like a moonshine distillery , maybe SCS does have 350 buildings but it looks like someone has hurried them together in a afternoon s work, the detail realy is quite poor , maybe the screen glare from e3 doesnt help any , over all i am very disappointed with the screen shots i seen upto date , maybe i been spoiled playing burnout 4 to much . The fact that burn out cities look more realistic than Sim city is a great tragedy for the sim city franchise imho.
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[King Faticus]

Burnout is a different genre entirly
plus it has always and will always look nicer than sim city

[Azeem]

If SimCity was only about graphics and looks, then that would be a great tragedy for the series.

Have you even seen the alpha version pics of SimCity 4? Pretty nasty stuff.

[Nakia]

I have one question for the SimCity fans.

Would I, Nakia, want to live in one of your cities?

[Romaq]

I don't know about you, but I *do* in fact live in the city I would wish to build.

--Romaq

[Nakia]

I'll change my question to fit the above answer.

I love New York city and its variety and surprises. Walk the streets of Manhattan with its skyscrapers jammed up against each other. Suddenly you see a narrow opening. You stop and look through to see a mews. Lovely little houses line the narrow 'street'. Grass, bushes, even trees are to be seen.

In SimCity (any of them) can you build a city which has this variety, this feeling of stepping outside of time? Can SimCity capture the special feel of Paris or Rome or London or Tokyo?

I keep hearing about how SimCity has more reality than SC:S (guessing game there?) but reality is variety, surprises. Reality is where people live and work and play. Sure there are places that have row houses but people manage to express their individuality.

I have no idea whether SC:S will offer anything such as this but does SC:4 (the vanilla game not the modded one.)? Give us time and SC:S will get modded. Don't compare vanilla and chocolate. Just vanilla vs vanilla.

[John-SJ]

IN my opinion, no. While you have some control in SimCity over what goes where, achieving the kind of variety that you speak of is pretty much impossible without heavy modding, IMO.

Trouble is, SC is highly random, in order to acheive specific goals as you suggest requires the removal of much of the randomness by one means or another.

Also, capuring the flavor of any but a pretty generic city is beyond the abilities of unmodded SC, again, IMO.

[Azeem]

With SC4's system, you can't effectively emulate cities of other places in the world aside from the USA, Canada, parts of Europe, possibly Australia and Hong Kong. You can make some nice *visual* (note "visual") represntations of Asian cities, but you still can't reflect the local culture. The most that can be done is to create a Western city in an Asian skin. SC4 also certainly cannot effectively represent small-town South Korea where the actual local culture and society are what differentiates one town from the next (as rural towns tend to look alike here).

[callagrafx]

A lot of you seem to have missed a couple of points about Simcity...First, it's a city simulator, not a sociology study. It's focus is infrastructure. Second, SC4 was released a long time ago (in gaming terms) and when it was first released, it was far in advance of any other type of city simulator/builder, so you are criticising something and comparing it with a new game without taking that into consideration. Think evolution. If you want ambience, play The Sims.

Lastly, that image posted by David shows a gritty, industrial feel yes, but how realistic is a 90 degree turn in a road?...even a game as old as SC had bends and curves and the road textures look like something Wile E Coyote would most likely be flattened on.

@John-SJ: SC4 is highly random, because a city is.

One last point to bear in mind...SC4 is highly customisable and because it is we're still talking about, developing for and playing it. Unless SC:S has the same abilities, it's doubtful it will be as popular for as long.

[Azeem]

You're right, of course. However, to be fair, the comparisons, contrasts, and criticisms have so far only been on screenshots between a completed game and a game that is still in its alpha phase. The problem here lies with the quickness to judge solely by visuals only. SC4 may be a visually stunning game, but that alone won't convince it's detractors (and it should be noted that compared to previous SC games, SC4 has not done as well among reviewers) and those who found it ultimately boring.

[Nakia]

My questions regarding SimCity 4 arise from comments made by SimCity fans. I gather they don't like SimCity:Societies because it isn't SC:4. Some harsh and, yes, even insulting comments have been made about SC:S, Tilted Mills and those of us who play their games.

I am not criticizing SC 4. I have not played the game and even if I had and did not like it I wouldn't criticize it. Whether I like a game or not is a personal matter. Isn't there a saying "variety is the spice of life"? There is room in this world for many types of games.

SC4 was released a long time ago (in gaming terms) and when it was first released, it was far in advance of any other type of city simulator/builder

It was innovative for its time. EA has decided that it is time to be innovative again.

There is a tendency among fans of game to be critical of any sequel or related game in a series. Evolution is a part of life whether we like it or not.

I don't think we have enough information at this time to judge SC:S.

You're right, of course. However, to be fair, the comparisons, contrasts, and criticisms have so far only been on screenshots between a completed game and a game that is still in its alpha phase. The problem here lies with the quickness to judge solely by visuals only.

"You can't judge a book by its cover" and you can't judge a game by a few screenshots.

Curving roads in a city? I drive down to the end of my cul-de-sac and make a 90degree turn. Curves do exist in roads either because there is no choice or in some cases in long stretches because it was found that a long straight road is boring and can cause the driver to become sleepy. Certainly it would be nice to have a curvy scenic route through the country side and I hope in the final product we get curves. I would love to be able to build my elite district with curves winding up to the mansions.

[Sim Nation]

Every road looks straight while your driving it , well nearly , but take a look at the larger picture and very few roads , run a true, or in a east-west direction, north to south , a lil pick of london street map to explain what i mean .
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/6209/11as4.gif

If i am ever going to be able to capture the feel of these great cities the SCS trailer promises ,we need proper roads and variety , end of i dont nessecary demand free hand curves , but 45 deg and 22.5 degrees should be part of the game,imho. From what ive seen upto now we cant build any kind of great city other than ones that fall within the available energies parameters with square roads , the is no such thing as a square 90 deg turn without a junction or traffic lights. When it comes time to showing of all our great cities we have made in SCS ,well personaly i think this version of Sim city kills the city journal stone dead . However TM are the masters of the universe soo its just possible that even though everything i enjoyed about regular sim city dissapears , the game play may be so powerful that appearances become irrelevent.
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[callagrafx]

Curving roads in a city? I drive down to the end of my cul-de-sac and make a 90degree turn. Curves do exist in roads either because there is no choice or in some cases in long stretches because it was found that a long straight road is boring and can cause the driver to become sleepy. Certainly it would be nice to have a curvy scenic route through the country side and I hope in the final product we get curves. I would love to be able to build my elite district with curves winding up to the mansions.

I'm not talking about curves but bends..A car cannot physically turn 90 degrees in such a short distance. And when you reach the end of your cul-de-sac is it a junction or a bend? If it's a junction, a car still has to stop before moving off...if it's a bend, then I guarantee it's not a 90 degree angle.

And I think you'll find that in reality, roads were and still are built along property boundarys and agricultural fields, which follow the contour of the land and irrigation channels...Unless of course you are in the US where a road can be dead straight for hundreds of miles, owing to the laws of economics (and the land belonging to no-one because it's barren, worthless land).

Oh, and by the way, in SC4 there are roads that are curvy windy roads been developed by Dedgren and the NAM team, which add a taste of realism to the countryside.

My questions regarding SimCity 4 arise from comments made by SimCity fans. I gather they don't like SimCity:Societies because it isn't SC:4. Some harsh and, yes, even insulting comments have been made about SC:S, Tilted Mills and those of us who play their games.

Not all of us are so narrowminded and vocal...It's a pity it happened the way it did but when the chickens become restless they start clucking. The more mature of us SC4 players advocated calm, restraint and an open mind, which some of us still have. Having played C IV for a little while I can guess how SC:S will feel and it's nothing like previous incarnations. Some people fear change, simple as.

[UnzippedSim77]

If i am ever going to be able to capture the feel of these great cities the SCS trailer promises ,we need proper roads and variety , end of. From what ive seen upto now we cant build any kind of great city other than ones that fall within the available energies parameters .

Herein lies the pro-SC4 fans' most valid and repeated argument: The trailer, EA and TM have promised we can build OUR city - finally! What a relief after the limitations of SC4... but a close inspection of, yes, albeit screenshots, and we are naturally a little concerned that 'our' city doesn't fit the parameters being shown... We can certainly play with societies we can dictate and rule ala many of the 'run-of-the-mill' (no offence to TM intended in the cliche) build-and-govern computer games, that, though successful, hold little to no interest to me. I want to work 'with' the city with some aspect of societal control, greater architectural dictatorship, lesser 'individual Sim' control/information... City-running is about stereotyping residents into categories, so the individuals don't always have much of an impact on the city.

Roads in the screen shots (and trailer) are absolutely and positively cringeworthy, and are something that I hope they've been working on in the time leading up to release, as the game's appeal to SC4 players is going to plummet further than what it has already with their so-called innovation. I'll just make a clarification for the pro-innovation readers of this thread: There is innovation, and then there is change for change's sake. SC:S, while certainly innovative in its societal energy view of cities, seems to have changed gameplay and focus purely for change's sake... Yes, TM had to stamp their take onto a well-known franchise (and guys and gals, I applaud you all for your hard work in the 3D element of the game), but for a well-known and well-loved franchise to take such a drastic turn which changes the focus of the game play and to try to be passed off as THE next iteration of SimCity, naturally there is going to be a big discussion about it. These forums are the SC4 fans' opportunity to air their views and reactions to this, and they have every right to do so, which TM have accepted and allowed (without the derisive and derogatory comments, of course, as I would never advocate the types of heated negativity that has appeared from some so-called SimCity lovers).

Anyway, back to main point: SimCity:Societies, from the information that has been given to the fan-base and from the screen shots that we have seen (when taken together do not validate a 'don't judge by its cover' comment), the game has strayed a long way from its heritage - the buildings do look very rigid in their structures, blocky in their appearance, and ultimately, unappealing in a City Builder gameplay sense... They are opinions, and should be treated as such, and not shouted down by silly arguments of judgmentalism.

[Nakia]

And when you reach the end of your cul-de-sac is it a junction or a bend?

It is a junction and if I didn't stop I would be breaking the law as well as risking being in an accident. I do agree that having curves or bends in roads would be nice but I don't judge a game by one thing but how the over all game plays.

Oh, and by the way, in SC4 there are roads that are curvy windy roads been developed by Dedgren and the NAM team, which add a taste of realism to the countryside.

Am I correct in understanding that this was a mod and not in the vanilla game?

Personally I am hoping that SC:S will have more the flavor of CotN then C IV. The impression I am getting is that it will have its own special flavor.

[Sim Nation]

"Your most unhappy customers are your greatest source of learning."
-Bill Gates
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[John-SJ]

...
@John-SJ: SC4 is highly random, because a city is.
...
I guess it just depends where you live. Where I live the city planners know what building is going to be built even before the foundation is put down. They've seen the architectural models and nothing is left to chance, no randomness at all. That is to say, the situation never arises where the mayor doesn't like the building that is built and orders it bulldozed in the hope the next random building is more to his liking. That's a very inefficient way to run a city, don't you think?

Also, please consider, even if that sort of randomness were part of real life, that does not mean it is a desirable game play element. There may be those who like it, but there will also be those who don't.

[Sim Nation]

callagrafx
Quote:

Not all of us are so narrowminded and vocal...It's a pity it happened the way it did but when the chickens become restless they start clucking. The more mature of us SC4 players advocated calm, restraint and an open mind, which some of us still have. Having played C IV for a little while I can guess how SC:S will feel and it's nothing like previous incarnations. Some people fear change, simple as.


Having witnessed your shameful personal attacks on inoccent bystanders,in all of this ie images posted ,i am some what shocked at your claims of divineness in the above quote.
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[callagrafx]

It is a junction and if I didn't stop I would be breaking the law as well as risking being in an accident. I do agree that having curves or bends in roads would be nice but I don't judge a game by one thing but how the over all game plays.

And quite right...that's my point, T junctions are not bends, like the one illustrated in the screenshot earlier on in this thread. And if one of the fundamentals of the game is wrong, how does that fare for the rest of them?

callagrafx
Quote:

Not all of us are so narrowminded and vocal...It's a pity it happened the way it did but when the chickens become restless they start clucking. The more mature of us SC4 players advocated calm, restraint and an open mind, which some of us still have. Having played C IV for a little while I can guess how SC:S will feel and it's nothing like previous incarnations. Some people fear change, simple as.


Having witnessed your shameful personal attacks on inoccent bystanders,in all of this ie images posted ,i am some what shocked at your claims of divineness in the above quote.


Please indicate to me WHERE I have made shameful personal attacks on these forums...If I recall I was one of the few people who did not resort to attacks on Tilted Mill, EA or the existing users of these forums when the horde came charging over with claims of "you killed simcity!". In a single day, the horde completely destroyed any credibility and influence the SC4 community had. If I have attacked anyone, it was not because they were a bystander....I always have a reason for my actions and words.

Oh, one more thing...Why do you not use your normal username that you have on SC4 sites? Is it so you can attack others with impunity?

[John-SJ]

My take on roads, not that anyone has asked for it, I just like giving my opinion on things. :D

I will withold judgement on the implementation of roads until I see the finished game and have a chance to play it.

I understand that in any game that tries to simulate a real world entity some things will be simulated in great detail, some in lesser detail. We just don't have the computing power to simulate all aspects of a city to a very low level of abstraction. some things need to be abstracted to make the game playable on systems that exist.

Maxis made certain choices as to what would be abstract and what would be simulated in great detail, and the SimCity after market mod community ahs made a tremendous contribution as well. TM has made its own choices about what will be simulated in detail and what will be left more or less to the imagination. One case would appear to be roads and transprotation networks.

I know this one thing will be a sticking point for some, but I refuse to judge a game based on a single design choice, especially a game that I have not been able to play yet to see what other choices were made to balance one that is obvious even from screenshots.

[Sim Nation]

I wasnt attacking you , just merely pionting out an observation i thought you should be aware of . I am not part or plan to be part of SC4D , so you can not influence your buddies over there to punish me in any shape or form for addressing this issue i had with your integrity .This image you posted in the outside world forum of this site several weeks ago was a direct personal attack ,on an individual that had absouletly nothing to do with the hordes of disgruntled mayors that swamped this site . And now you threaten me for bringing this matter up , So pray tell me what punishment do you have in mind exactly ,i may be willing to pay good money to be on the recieving end .
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[callagrafx]

I wasnt attacking you , just merely pionting out an observation i thought you should be aware of . I am not part or plan to be part of SC4D , so you can not influence your buddies over there to punish me in any shape or form for addressing this issue i had with your integrity .This image you posted in the outside world forum of this site several weeks ago was a direct personal attack ,on an individual that had absouletly nothing to do with the hordes of disgruntled mayors that swamped this site . And now you threaten me for bringing this matter up , So pray tell me what punishment do you have in mind exactly ,i may be willing to pay good money to be on the recieving end .

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did I say anything about punishment at another website that has no bearing on this conversation? Neither do I go in for such pettiness nor does the site take into account anything said outside of it's confines as grounds for "punishment". As you have no intention of being a member there, I really cannot see what your point was. I simply asked why you felt the need to hide behind a nom-de-plum? My guess is, as I stated before, so you can say what you like here but your standing at other sites remains unaffected...cowardly in my opinion.

The image you are referring to was a tongue in cheek image aimed at a whole group of people, who in my opinion deserve the nickname they have been attributed with for a good many years.

[Sim Nation]

Thanks for the detail reply Cal in which your true colours do shine through opacity of your comments . What exactly have i said in these forums that affects my standing on another SC websites, should my life be so dull that i let things like this bother me in the first place ? . I have teamspeak and email and a car and phone ,should you wish to discover how cowardly i am in a private meet .This as gone realy off topic , also when i veiw all your posts i see only hidden agenda and inuendo within your posts , upto date you have not made 1 constructive post imho . I as prolly many others saw your photshopping skills on this occasion as a direct attack on an individual that i have more respect for than your self , the rules around here are some folks are allowed to insult , and other arnt , ?. Maybe the eat your kids was just as tongue in cheek as your imagery . To ridiculas to ever be considered a serious threat . You dont go in for such pettines but you posted the toungue in cheek images which were pettiness at its greatest. Im outa here things to do feel free to pm me anytime .
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[John-SJ]

callagrafx, Sim Nation,

I would request at this time that you take your private discussion to PMs. It has no place in this thread. Thanks.

[MarkDuffy]

This thread definitely needs the Tea Party Gang™.

We get it already, Kids, & so does TM. :rolleyes:

Please

[callagrafx]

I guess it just depends where you live. Where I live the city planners know what building is going to be built even before the foundation is put down. They've seen the architectural models and nothing is left to chance, no randomness at all. That is to say, the situation never arises where the mayor doesn't like the building that is built and orders it bulldozed in the hope the next random building is more to his liking. That's a very inefficient way to run a city, don't you think?

Also, please consider, even if that sort of randomness were part of real life, that does not mean it is a desirable game play element. There may be those who like it, but there will also be those who don't.

Consider this though...a real-life Mayor would not have the powers endowed on him that the game mayor has, so that situation would never arise and also, planners don't have that kind of influence in reality either. Property developers are the ones, the people who own the land and pay for the building, who have the last word on asthetics. Building styles reflect the style of the day (Georgian, Victorian, Tudor, Modernist) not what looks good next to what. It's that type of diversity that makes a city more interesting.

That's the difference between development and planning. Most cities started as hamlets, villages and small towns, where people were drawn together by the resources available, usually water. If you look, almost every capital city has a river and all of them have evolved over time. You refer to things like "new towns" where an entire community is built from scratch, from start to finish off a single blueprint. Conformist it may be, but most would call it monotonous too.

[Nakia]

Hi John-SJ, I am always glad to hear from you. You are a voice of sanity in an insane world.

I understand that in any game that tries to simulate a real world entity some things will be simulated in great detail, some in lesser detail. We just don't have the computing power to simulate all aspects of a city to a very low level of abstraction. some things need to be abstracted to make the game playable on systems that exist.

True. A base game should be playable by as many people as possible. The brave modders come to the rescue. We can then pick and choose what we want to make the game more to our taste limited by what our systems can handle. But if I can't install and play the vanilla game on my current machine the question of bends or curves is unimportant.

[John-SJ]

callagrafx,
No, I am not referring to new towns, I am talking about established cities. In the cities I am familiar with the mayor has the power of veto. Sure, a developer submits a plan for a building or a complex of them, but if it (they) do not fit with the city's plan, they get vetoed by the mayor. So, in a very real sense it is the mayor that makes the final decision. Usually, the decision is passive, just allow what the developer comes up with, but (s)he can take as active a role as (s)he chooses too.

In game terms, I feel it is a better choice to give the player more control over what is built in the first place. That way, you avoid having to bulldoze until the "right" building springs up by chance.

Nakia, I may face the same hurdle as you. Whether my present computer will even play SC:S is questiionable, it struggles with Caesar 4, SC:S may be the camel that breaks the straw's back. :D

[dedgren]

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/9779/45curve02pi5.jpg


David

[Sim Nation]

^^:cool:
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[Romaq]

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/9779/45curve02pi5.jpg


David

Yup. That's the SC:S screenshot I'm yet looking for.

--Romaq

[Ocram]

I didn't take only three measly pictures of my industrial city, I took six floppy disks of compressed GIF pictures. I had to copy all the PNGs into GIFs, put a compressed folder into each floppy and stuff as many pix as I could. The third picture is of a neighborhood with very little variety but still 5% more variety than any screenshot of any Productivity city I ever saw. I am indeed using SimCity 4 Deluxe because they no longer sold vanilla SC4 in late 2005 when I bought it. I promise you all that I will upload more pictures once I can figure out how to upload multiple pictures to Imageshack at a time. Thank You!

[MarkDuffy]

David

Road doesn't have any cars on it. Curve looks fake & the transitions are terrible.

Not impressed, sorry

EDIT: To be perfectly clear ~ I am NOT looking for a paint-by-numbers clone. I want a real game. :)

[dedgren]

You know what, Mark- if I might be so familiar?

Road doesn't have any cars on it. Curve looks fake & the transitions are terrible.

Not impressed, sorry

I'm just a 54 year guy, a lawyer and an urban planner. I'm not a graphics designer and certainly don't work for a computer game company. Before I did the textures for that curve six months ago, I'd never done textures before. That's the way that they were released as a MOD, but since then I've worked with others (as SC4 players do) on developing far better textures, and they'll come out in due course. There's no cars because the pic was taken when the curves were being checked out in testing them.

I find your post gratuitously offensive, and I'm quite surprised at its tone, given that I've said nothing here to date that hasn't been completely complimentary to Tilted Mill and courteous to the members of its forums. If there was a "report this post to a moderator" button here, I would click it.

Oh, and I'm not an transportation engineer, either, but I think one would find little good to say about the "transition" into these curves, as well.

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/1261/scsscreenshot03curvedx5.jpg

You might try getting out and developing some social skills that would allow you to say you don't care for something or have a criticism of it without simply sounding offensive, rude and boorish.

Have a nice day.


David

[Rnett]

Road doesn't have any cars on it. Curve looks fake & the transitions are terrible.

Not impressed, sorry

EDIT: To be perfectly clear ~ I am NOT looking for a paint-by-numbers clone. I want a real game. :)

They want to be able to bend the roads.....


20504

[MarkDuffy]

They want to be able to bend the roads.....

Yes, we know what they want, Rnett. So does TM. About a thousand posts ago.

Such tender mercies, after slamming TM & SCS over & over for the past 2 months.

My post stands as written. It IS how I feel.

[Azeem]

I'm not fond of the current roads myself, but I doubt these are even the final versions of the roads. It was repeatedly mentioned after all, that they're still working on the transportation aspect. :)

[dedgren]

Yes, we know what they want, Rnett. So does TM. About a thousand posts ago.

Such tender mercies, after slamming TM & SCS over & over for the past 2 months.

My post stands as written. It IS how I feel.

Yeah, Mark- but you weren't commenting on all the people who have "slamm[ed] TM & SCS"- you were commenting on a specific pic I posted.

So, to "offensive, rude and boorish" I'll add "indiscriminate jerk."

I would have hoped for better from someone I did nothing to offend.


David

[MarkDuffy]

Dedgren, you have made quite the spectacle outta yourself. That is fine that you have had your say. I just want you to know that I have read your posts.

[Sim Nation]

Default SC4 road system with NO MODS at all , dont use the nastiest picture you can find Rnett .

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/1137/108tp3.jpg


Default SC4 road/street map taken from Traffic map , NO mods

http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/3720/stmap1qa5.jpg

And i dont want a bit of variety in the roads for just me , for all , even the ungratful ones your sad and you make me sick, as the roads had this kind of diveristy nearly 5 , half a decade ago 5 long years , as scs stands at the minuite i wouldnt play this trash if you paid me .
________
DIGITAL VOLCANO VAPORIZER (http://vaporizerinfo.com)

[dedgren]

Dedgren, you have made quite the spectacle outta yourself. That is fine that you have had your say. I just want you to know that I have read your posts.

Well, there's two ways of looking at that situation...

I'll take your comments as reflective of the last word as to TM's position toward SC4 and its current fanbase, and not waste any further space here "posting into the wind," so to speak. It's a shame that things were represented as being open and a constructive dialog when it appears apparent that TM is simply doing what it intended all along. I will, then, just put the copy of SCS that I've indicated I would order straight into the "remainder" rack, as, with an attitude on your company's part such as that, it is where the game will wind up six months after release in any event.

And good day to you.


David

[John-SJ]

And if you like roads, SC4 is a wonderful game. OTOH, I can think of lots of things I enjoy about various games that have nothing to do with complex road networks. Obviously they are not an essential ingredient to having fun.

edit: (after reading Dedgren's most recent post) Huh! I did not realize that Mark was in the employ of Tilted Mill. But that's the only way I know of that his comments could be taken as representative of Tilted Mill's position, so it must be so.

Right?

[MarkDuffy]

I see that you desperately need more from me, Dedgren. I am not Tilted Mill. We have no professional relationship, now or in the past.

I am an outsider & a HUGE fan. I am also only one voice among many different voices, each equal in nature.

As to the current state of SCS or TM's development plans for the finished game, I have no clue.

You, my friend, do yourself no favors here.

[Sim Nation]

I score Dedgrens , the amatuer made them for fun roads a 8.5/10

I score SCS roads proffesionaly made for the 5th edition of sim city a multi million dollar franchise a 4/10 i was going to score them a 3 but they have a kurbline so its a 4.

John Sj , if you dont like roads then why the hell would you want to play a city builder game .Some of you guys make me want to screeeeeem !!!.
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RA272 (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_RA272)

[John-SJ]

Not speaking to anyone in particular, but the inability of some people to think critically makes me want to scream!

Sim Nation, are you sure I said that I don't like roads? Or was it, I don't find roads necessary to enjoyment?

Can you see the difference?

[Sim Nation]

You have openly admitted john you dont have the rig to play ,open this game up , so why are you here trying to ruin it for the ones that can play it from day 1 , a city can only grow as big as the road , transport system that serves it , roads are not for enjoyement they are a requirement .

Ps i cant be bother to check spelling for you lot , your not worth the extra few seconds to edit the message , i type as fast as. i can and hit enter
________
Lesbian Latina (http://www.****tube.com/categories/735/latina/videos/1)

[Nakia]

Some of you guys make me want to screeeeeem !!!.

Unfortunately a lot of us could make the above statement. Sometimes I wonder how many people read others post carefully and try to understand them.

Please, I have tried to understand the point of view of the more radical SimCity fans. I wish they would have the same courtesy towards the rest of us. (Disclaimer: I am not picking out any one particular person.)

Let us all take a deep breath, count to 120 and see what the final product is. Who knows some of us who think we will like may not and some of those who think they will hate it may end up liking it.

Assuming that we can play it on our computers. That at the moment is my biggest worry.

[John-SJ]

After reading Sim Nation's last post all I can do is shake my head in bewilderment.

If someone (other than Sim Nation) can explain to me how my posts are ruining "it" for those who will play Sim City Societies on day one, please take a moment to explain it and I will stop.

Sim Nation, I have a certain amount of an amazing resource at my disposal, and I am accruing more of it every day. It is called money. With it, if the computer I have is not capable of working with Sim City Societies, I will, at my discretion, buy a new computer, or upgrades to my current computer. I do not need you to sit in judgemnt over me to decide which of my posts are worthy of posting (or reading and/or responding to) and which aren't. If the moderators of this forum have a problem with my posts, they will let me know, I am sure. So, save yourself the trouble and stop wasting your time, and mine.

Have a good one.

[Sim Nation]

I hope they do get it right , because we all know who Ea will blame when Sim City fans disgusts influences the game mags ratings and this game gets a 6 . I hope for Tm s sake its right , because Ea will destroy TM. The game will sell because your using the sim city name , well the things i argue for are the things that made the sim city name . I have my own business , the reason i can mess about do my own thing , go in when i choose , is because when im there i produce true quality , that very few companies are capable of producing these days. This is second rate stuff from a title with a very good name for quality and value.Im not her cos i enjoy it,or to improve my written english, im ,not here to be liked ,and im certianly not here to waste both are time arguing ,im here to make sure TM dont forget what real sim city is about even if i do goto fall out with them to get the message across. They have a chance to become the best city builder developers in the world , it may be the only chance they ever get.
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Five hundred (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Five_Hundred)

[John-SJ]

... They have a chance to become the best city builder developers in the world ...

I am sure the number that would argue they already are the best is far from small, and I find myself among them.

[Sim Nation]

Now your just being silly to cause trouble , MAXIS, john , they are the best , then Montecristo , then the guys that made cossacks . TM havent made anything but C4 and Cotn both of which dont score to high in the ratings and arent modern day city builders, C3 was impressions , not tilted mill , even the free download monopoly city builder game has as much detail as this , and prolly more gameplay. The half dozen guys that regularly post here the tm fan club may already think TM are the best , but i had already seen that in the posts they make .
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Watch Xxx Movies (http://www.****tube.com/)

[Azeem]

@dedgren: TM staff members all have the unique TM logo avatar and a title indicating their staff position. Saying that Mark is represenative of them would be the same as saying you or Sim Nation are representative of Maxis (which you definitely aren't).

@Sim Nation: The term here is "CITY" builder, not "road" builder. There's more to a city than roads. I don't like the roads myself, but I doubt we're even seeing the final version of them. TM is somewhat of a revival of Impressions, by the way. Many of the staff were from Impressions. It's also quite interesting that you mention ratings; SC4, which some almost take religiously, didn't do as well in ratings compared to its predecessors.

And of course we're TM fans - this IS, after all, a TM community forum. At a place like SC4D or Simtropolis, we're also obviously going to have extreme devotees to SC4.

[Mike Lattiak]

C3 was impressions , not tilted mill ,

Tilted Mill is made up of people from Impressions. Feel free to visit http://www.tiltedmill.com/company/faq.php#q1 for information about the company!

[Mike Lattiak]

Gasp! Azeem posted before me! I am defeated...

[Azeem]

Gasp! Azeem posted before me! I am defeated...

Never underestimate the power of the SCHWARTZ! :D

[John-SJ]

ROFL!!!

I need to see that movie again, I've forgotten too, too much of it!

...MAXIS, john , they are the best , then Montecristo , then the guys that made cossacks...

Well, certainly everyone that posts on these forums is entitled to their own opinion.

[King Faticus]

yay! I haven't heard a good barrens chat since this morning...

People will always see what they want in things, there is no exception... some will hate SCS because they want to hate it while others will love it because they want to.

[John-SJ]

Sorry King, I must be missing something, but, barrens chat?

[Nakia]

Perhaps King means a worthless exchange in which we only feed the ego of another and enable him/her to spout insults and rant about how much better the game (s)he likes is to the game I like.

EA is a business, their business is publishing games that will sell. I am sure they did a thorough market research before they chose Tilted Mill to develop their game. The game to which they, EA, hold the franchise rights and I am also sure they didn't just say to TM "Here do what ever you want with this game" but worked out details long ago.


Yes, I am yelling.

Well, certainly everyone that posts on these forums is entitled to their own opinion.

And they can expect to get an opposing opinion back especially when they are posting on a fan site of the games they love to hate.

If a consumer does not like a product the best way to show displeasure is to not buy the product.

PS: Could someone direct me to where the Tea Party is?

[dedgren]

Someone at SC4D let me know that I was apparently mistaken in associating Mr. Duffy with Tilted Mill. If that is the case I owe TM an apology. I regret reacting to the posts of a person I now understand to be an individual as if they were made on behalf of the company, and am sorry if anyone at TM was affronted by what I said in error.

I do not apologize in any way to Mr. Duffy by saying this. He deserves worse than he got.


David

[Romaq]

Not speaking to anyone in particular, but the inability of some people to think critically makes me want to scream!

Sim Nation, are you sure I said that I don't like roads? Or was it, I don't find roads necessary to enjoyment?

Can you see the difference?

SimNation's posts became too snippy and raving, so I simply dropped him into the 'ignore' list. For me, transit is pivotal in moving goods, services, customers and employees, and in some instances becomes a venue in its own right. I hope this weekend to take a drive along Chuckanut Drive (http://www.chuckanutdrive.com/) and watch the sun set over the bay. Bellingham Bay, of course, provides its own venues for people to sail on, as well as transit with the ferries.

So I rate transit rather high on my list of things I wish to enjoy, but at some point I have to live with what makes it in the software and purchase accordingly. Someone, someday will find the tools in software and the general level of hardware to make that city builder I'm looking to play.

And, yes, speling kounts a grate deel. Wile some1 ma mak mistaks, if 1 dozent kare to rite azif wat thay hav 2 sa matterz, the raedr may agre wat 1 haz 2 sa doznt mattr. If u dont kar wat u rite, Y shud I?

--Romaq

[Romaq]

(snip)And of course we're TM fans - this IS, after all, a TM community forum. At a place like SC4D or Simtropolis, we're also obviously going to have extreme devotees to SC4.

In my case, I knew nothing of Tilted Mill or their products until I was directed here from a post in SimTropolis referring to WinGames, and I happened to purchase that particular magazine from the news stand on the reference to SimCity alone.

I would consider myself a SimCity4 fan, but I'm certainly not rabid or religious about it. I would also suggest there are many people who track SimTropolis, but they are staying the hell out of the mess until they have a reason to buy SC:S, or choose not to. Some may have 'street cred' on SimTrop and they wouldn't wish to flush it down the crapper by posting much positive here, but they wouldn't necessarily wish to crap all over SC:S because it's somehow fun to do, either.

I'm an absolute nobody on SimTrop, so I don't have to worry about 'street cred'. I can just speak my mind engage in what dialog I think fit. Sometimes it's a nice position to be in, but at time I do wish I were simply unaware of SC:S until it hit the shelves.

And BestBuy as of yesterday still has a 'SimCity Deluxe' package of SC3k, SimCoaster, SimCopter and a bunch of other SIMstuff bundled for... I think it was $20. It wouldn't be there if it didn't have value to SOMEONE to keep it in stock.

--Romaq

[Romaq]

(snip)
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/1261/scsscreenshot03curvedx5.jpg
I do want to mention I like the flora... are those bull rushes leading to the water? The buildings, the effects, the water appears appealing. I am interested in seeing more and learning what I can do within this game.

The 90 degree turn, however, makes my bum clench. In real life, I'd refer to it as the Turn of Evil Evilness. That, or "watch out for cars in the oncoming lane!"

[Sim Nation]

Lol romaq thats your first post that you havent mentioned your Damn wife, you guys are lucky i dont speak in my local english , as you wouldnt understand a bloody word , im english i can write english/speak however i please you forigners have goto get it right to impress us brits to accept you as equals,hehe .Just as its my ireland also.
________
BBW BIG DILDOS (http://www.****tube.com/video/27125/bbw-likes-big-dildos)

[John-SJ]

As I am fond of telling a british friend at work, the british may have invented english, but the Americans perfected it. Funny, somehow he never laughs when I say that, guess his snese of humor is a bit off.

Romaq, I understand your liking for Sim City. There is a lot to do in the game, not the least of which is playing with the road and transport network, it can be very challenging, to say the least.

But surely there are other games that you play as well, games that don't emphasize transportation as much as Sim City? Some of them must be fun, right?

The reason I ask is to emphasize a point I was trying to make earlier, not every gmae has to have a more or less fully realized transportation system to be fun. In my opinion at least, transportation can be abstracted to a high degree and still be an element in a fun game. One example just off the top of my head, Civilization IV: Certainly there nust be huge amounts of traffic between cities, but only 3 forms of transpotation, road, rail, and water. I am excluding military transport, but if you want to include it, air. Connecting cities could hardly be easier, and the degree of control you have couldn't be much lower, but I prefer to think of Civ IV as a pretty fun game.

Sure, Civ is not a city builder, but it is fun, even with its highly abstract transport system. Tilted Mill seems to be bending the general idea of the ciy builder/simulator anyway, in a different direction, but to no less an extent (guessing here) than they did in Children of the Nile. Their implementation of roads is not the only thing different with Societies, but I have a feeling the game will still be fun. We won't be worrying about how our Sims get from A to B so much in Societies, but from what is slowly leaking out, there will be plenty to keep us busy anyway. :)

[Romaq]

As I am fond of telling a british friend at work, the british may have invented english, but the Americans perfected it. Funny, somehow he never laughs when I say that, guess his snese of humor is a bit off.-

I'm guessing someone brought up that topic. Just to tease my wife, I tell her that the Canadian Government still does as they are told by the U.S. State Department. Not that the Canucks *like* doing as they are told, but they still do it anyway. This is obviously true of the Brits as well. And if the Brits don't like it, we'll bring it up the next time Jolly Ol' England engages in a world war and they want us to bail 'em out.

Of course, discussions like that really don't tell the whole story, and it glosses over the facts of interglobal strategic alliances with ego and easy to swallow pap. But if someone cares to dish it out, I'm an American, and we specialize in ego and pap production.

Romaq, I understand your liking for Sim City. There is a lot to do in the game, not the least of which is playing with the road and transport network, it can be very challenging, to say the least.

All the more easier for some aspects of NAM 2007, made even more a challenge for NAM 2007.

But surely there are other games that you play as well, games that don't emphasize transportation as much as Sim City? Some of them must be fun, right?

Dwarf Fortress recently, where I had to fuss over the ability of individual dwarves to pass one another in a hall. Ultima Online, where I have to fuss over getting to and from hunting places including some of the mini-quests I have to do to get to the main boss.

The reason I ask is to emphasize a point I was trying to make earlier, not every gmae has to have a more or less fully realized transportation system to be fun.

In games that are spatial, movement of resources tends to be an issue. In a City Builder, especially one that is heavy on eye-candy, transit must be functional as a part of resource allocation, and the 'eye-candy' aspect of transit should be on relative par with all the OTHER 'eye-candy' being used to promote the game. Something like having a great 7.1 audio card used to drive cheap ear-buds. The ear-buds just don't provide quite as nice an overall effect as having a matching 7.1 speaker system correctly placed. In this case, the buildings, the views and such do not match transit expectations as well as I would personally like. I agree, that's just my opinion. But that's where transit issues rank in my opinion.

In my opinion at least, transportation can be abstracted to a high degree and still be an element in a fun game. One example just off the top of my head, Civilization IV: Certainly there nust be huge amounts of traffic between cities, but only 3 forms of transpotation, road, rail, and water. I am excluding military transport, but if you want to include it, air.

Ok, fine. But at the moment, we are lacking on screenshots and info that indicates SC:S is at least as capable as Civ. IV as you describe it.

Connecting cities could hardly be easier, and the degree of control you have couldn't be much lower, but I prefer to think of Civ IV as a pretty fun game.

And it may well be. So is XCOM. So is Dwarf Fortress. But so long as I have the option of saying, "I think the roads and transit we see to date really HORRIBLY detract from the rest of your presentation", I'll report to TM "MY GOD your streets in those screen shots hurt my eyes looking for transit!" I'm certain TM gets the point, but at least I find my own posts amusing if no one else cares for it. I consider this forum a 'meta-game', and it appears reasonable I should play it thus and so.

Sure, Civ is not a city builder, but it is fun, even with its highly abstract transport system. Tilted Mill seems to be bending the general idea of the ciy builder/simulator anyway, in a different direction, but to no less an extent (guessing here) than they did in Children of the Nile. Their implementation of roads is not the only thing different with Societies, but I have a feeling the game will still be fun. We won't be worrying about how our Sims get from A to B so much in Societies, but from what is slowly leaking out, there will be plenty to keep us busy anyway. :)

Perhaps, but until SC:S hits the shelves, I'll promote what I think will help me like it more. Once SC:S is cut, I tend to think I'll play it for interaction with my wife who is likely to enjoy playing it. And should things turn out different, that's fine too.

--Romaq

[Sim Nation]

Interesting theory John , Call of Jurezz is fun to play , but i wouldnt like them to make sim city into a fps . Sim City is about building a city , Sim city has always been about building a city , What is the most important thing about any city ? Transport , i cant belive your saying your not bothered as long as its fun ,if you want fun come jion us in the Atari Axis and Allies community il show you real fun in a online 4v4 ww2 game . But i dont want to see bombers and Eisenhore or patton or the Admiral in sim city ,Chuikov put him in sim city he s fun , i dont want to kill my own food in sim city , but i have fun slaughtering deer in AoE.Why dont we just make it turn based , Civ II is fun .Tossing a nade into a pillbox full of forigners in Call of Duty is fun , but i dont want to slaughter forigners in sim city , when i play sim city i just want to wind down , build a nice city that looks good and works real well with a huge population . And the best fun of all in Sc4 is watching the rush hour, the commute , the traffic , and the roads and conjestion manging the traffic ,but also making it look nice , nice is fun if something looks nice its fun to look at , if something look offensive and out of place it no longer becomes fun to look and admire.Diaganol road are about look and admire (you have such a wonderful detailed sky which i knew was comming but then you kill it with the roads),they serve no purpose to game play but they add more fun to the game , it gives the player a little more abilty to be creative , I know a guy that thinks its fun when he passes wind , fun is differant for all of us , ultimate fun is doing 170 mph down a small dual carraige way is a kick ass sports car , my parents think walking through the cotswolds is fun , my sister is happy so long as she is spending money , please define the level of fun you were discribing in the above post in a little more detail so i may come to understand your reasoning just a little better.lol
________
Extreme Vaporizer (http://vaporizers.net/extreme-vaporizer)

[John-SJ]

BTW, Romaq, if the roads we see today are the ones we end up with, I will live with it. But I sure wouldn't mind seeing some more variety, and some smoother curves rather than right angles.

Even though I will challenge you, and others, on the importance of roads or whatever, it is as much to have a well articulated discussion as anything. I don't dislike roads,

I don't dislike road building in SC4, and I sincerely believe that the NAM (Network (as in transport network) Addon Mod, for those who are unfamiliar) is one of the best things to ever happen to SC4.

I also appreciate when someone such as yourself who can express himself clearly and without a lot of unecessary emotion takes the time to let Tilted Mill know how you feel about the current road system, or what we have seen of it.

And finally, obviously we all come to gaming from our own unique perspective. I enjoy reading your explanations of why roads, or venues, or whatever are important. By learning how others think I feel that I can actually broaden my own enjoyment for a game or genre of games.

Thanks for taking the time to respond thoughtfully. :)

[John-SJ]

As you point out SN, Sim City is about building cities, and I will also mention just in case you forgot, Sim City Societies is about building cities as well. :D

Perhaps my example of Civ 4 was not as good as it should have been, but let me say again, Tilted Mill seems to be bending the ideas of what makes a city builder, they have emphasized some things that have not been in city builders before, at least not to the extent that they are including them, and to me, it only makes sense that other things that have been emphasized in the past will no be given a lower priority. Maybe they do this to keep the game from being overly complex? Maybe they do it to keep production managable, but we can only speculate.

And yes, I do play games because they are fun. As far as I am concerned at least, that is the point of games, that they be fun.

[Sim Nation]

From an earlier post thanks for your reply mike , and the link to the company faq, i always believed that David lester , Mike Bradbury and Eric oulette( prolly spelt that wrong) where the main guys behind Caeser / impressions , although chris does get a With Thanks at the very end of the C3 credits . In all honesty his is the only name from the current tm team that gets any credit for C3, unless i missed someone .
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HONDA I-SHIFT (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_I-SHIFT)

[Romaq]

BTW, Romaq, if the roads we see today are the ones we end up with, I will live with it. But I sure wouldn't mind seeing some more variety, and some smoother curves rather than right angles.

From what I've been able to gather of SC:S, from what I've seen, I'll 'live' with what ships were it to ship today so long as Mikaela plays it, and it is a platform she and I can interact within. That's not the same as saying I'll fuss and linger over SC:S as I would with SC4 or any other game I putter in. It's to say, 'my wife plays it and she's happy, so I'll hold my nose (or avert my eyes) over things I don't like and enjoy it with her.'

Even though I will challenge you, and others, on the importance of roads or whatever, it is as much to have a well articulated discussion as anything. I don't dislike roads,

That's fine, and I enjoy articulating. One might say I'm so full of myself I enjoy the sound of hearing myself type, and I wouldn't deny that. But I trade you two challenges for your one:

1) Show how 'eye-candy' enhancements to buildings for 3D free camera view does not entail some 'love' applied to roads and other forms of transit to maintain a consistant, pleasing overall appearance? Is it wise to only have 'important' gameplay elements aesthetically pleasing? Or should all game elements, even relatively important ones be aesthetically suitable with the overall view?

2) If SC:S were to simulate 'The Guide', the area I live in with rows and rows of stripmalls, a mall, several 'big box' outlets, condos and residential projects just off secondary streets, is that best achieved with a single two-lane road as part of the gameplay? Even if the desire is to simulate the effect of the I-5 highway that dumps an ungodly amount of traffic onto The Guide?

Ignoring the 'eye-candy' issue, how is SC:S to simulate this?:
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/9D12A503-5C47-4F2A-8D9B-B70938C13EA7/0/Meridian_1.gif

The photo is looking north on the I-5 overpass, by the by. As far as talking about 'Societal Values' based upon a real-case example, that area right there is an excellent real-case example to use for SC:S's gameplay. But how does one go about using this 'textbook example' from real life without referring to the traffic horror that this very intersection implies?

I don't dislike road building in SC4, and I sincerely believe that the NAM (Network (as in transport network) Addon Mod, for those who are unfamiliar) is one of the best things to ever happen to SC4.

It is, and the NAM team will be in a position to show some love towards SC:S. A factor of that love is how compelled the NAM members are to have legal copies of the game that they should want to do anything with it. Another factor of that love is how far the NAM can hook into game mechanics to actually 'do' something.

I also appreciate when someone such as yourself who can express himself clearly and without a lot of unecessary emotion takes the time to let Tilted Mill know how you feel about the current road system, or what we have seen of it.

Oh hell, none of this road stuff is personal, and I very much want to keep things that way. I hope to continue with an interesting string of artwork, cute appropriate movies and thoughful begging concerning transit. At least until we have screenshots that assure me that, even if I can't have all I want, there's hope and a good likelyhood some form of 'NAM' will show up in SC:S to smooth out what TM is out of time and budget to accomplish.

Comments about my wife, one's ethnic superiority or references to TM as being a total failure to ever produce a decent game, as someone has, simply indicate a lack of character and general incomptence. That it is typical a person like that makes no effort towards reasonable grammer or spelling when English is that person's first written language simply highlights the 'generally incompetent' part. But Lordy how entertaining people like that can be when they intend to be taken seriously.

And finally, obviously we all come to gaming from our own unique perspective. I enjoy reading your explanations of why roads, or venues, or whatever are important. By learning how others think I feel that I can actually broaden my own enjoyment for a game or genre of games.

As do I. There is a great deal of magic involved when my wife and I drive by and note 'Industrial, residential, commercial' zones, and as we watch buildings go up along our drive just like something out of SC4. It would be wonderful if SC:S can capture that sort of magic. Meanwhile, the discussions I have on here consume as much time as they do because of the entertainment I get out of the 'meta-game'. If I didn't come away with some form of entertainment posting here, I wouldn't be posting.

Thanks for taking the time to respond thoughtfully. :)

And I appreciate your responses even in our disagreement. I just hope it's enough for TM to find some love in the SC:S budget to apply on those 90 degree turns as well as the other issues I've brought up. Maybe, just maybe I'll have to take point on implimenting the NAM for SC:S. I could certainly do so given time and means. But it's going to take time. And means.

--Romaq

[King Faticus]

From an earlier post thanks for your reply mike , and the link to the company faq, i always believed that David lester , Mike Bradbury and Eric oulette( prolly spelt that wrong) where the main guys behind Caeser / impressions , although chris does get a With Thanks at the very end of the C3 credits . In all honesty his is the only name from the current tm team that gets any credit for C3, unless i missed someone .

C3 isn't the only game made by impressions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressions_Games
there isn't alot of information on the company itself on this wiki but the games it produced are there.
Maybe if you compared the names of producers from Pharaoh or Zeus might come up with better results.
now I suddenly miss Lords of the Realm.... :(

[John-SJ]

...1) Show how 'eye-candy' enhancements to buildings for 3D free camera view does not entail some 'love' applied to roads and other forms of transit to maintain a consistant, pleasing overall appearance? Is it wise to only have 'important' gameplay elements aesthetically pleasing? Or should all game elements, even relatively important ones be aesthetically suitable with the overall view?
You make an excellent point, one that can't be, or hopefully, won't be ignored by Tilted Mill. The road network we've seen in pictures and videos really does stick out. Maybe (or not) that is a clue that Tilted Mill has something up its collective sleeve?

2) If SC:S were to simulate 'The Guide', the area I live in with rows and rows of stripmalls, a mall, several 'big box' outlets, condos and residential projects just off secondary streets, is that best achieved with a single two-lane road as part of the gameplay? Even if the desire is to simulate the effect of the I-5 highway that dumps an ungodly amount of traffic onto The Guide?

Ignoring the 'eye-candy' issue, how is SC:S to simulate this?:
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/9D12A503-5C47-4F2A-8D9B-B70938C13EA7/0/Meridian_1.gif

The photo is looking north on the I-5 overpass, by the by. As far as talking about 'Societal Values' based upon a real-case example, that area right there is an excellent real-case example to use for SC:S's gameplay. But how does one go about using this 'textbook example' from real life without referring to the traffic horror that this very intersection implies?
...--Romaq

In a recent video the promise was made, "Build the city you want to build". Obviously, on a very concrete level of water pipes, road networks, and power lines, Societies will fail pretty miserably. On the other hand, if the city you are after is a working green city (to use an example we've seen) or an Orwellian or Dante-esque fantasy city, or many more true to life ideas, Societies may be just the ticket.

Every game has limitations, even SC4, and looking again at your image, I see some things taht SC4 would not be able to handle much better than Societies. For example, before the intersection of oncoming traffic there are 2 lanes, after the intersection there are 3. Can SC4/Rush Hour do that? Not that I am aware of. I also notice that the that the area of trees on the left is actually trees and bushes. Can SC4/Rush Hour do that? Hey! Even Children of the Nile has trees, bushes, and hedges!

Sure, all of those things are available as custom content in SC4, but all but the most dedicated masochist is likely to find the search through the ST-EX (Simtropolis Exchange for those who have not been there) or through the ST-EX CD/DVD excruciatingly tedious and boring.

Sorry, it is not my intention to slam SC4, and especially not the excellent work that has been done by the army of content modders, but to make the point, every game has limitations that players must live with. Some things can be changed through modding the vanilla game, but not everything (e.g. working, plopable residential buildings)

Well, I've obviously begun to ramble, but as a final parenthetical note, I would be much happier with SC4 add-on content if there were even only 1/4 as much, but of the content that was there, if I click to download it there was some way to let me know what dependencies I need as well and give me a way to d/l all of it in one shot. I hate downloading content and then having to manually check (sc4tool) for dependencies and then trying to find those as well. I play games to have fun, not end up searching the web for files that no one other than a plot designer ever heard of. Oh, and I would give extra points if the tool that listed all dependencies also told me which I have already installed so I can retrieve only those I don't have installed.

Maybe Tilted Mill can use that idea to support not only content modders, but mod consumers as well. :)

[Nakia]

Maybe Tilted Mill can use that idea to support not only content modders, but mod consumers as well.

Or a nice project for one of our talented people. :)

Modding can extend the life of a game indefinitely. Check out the Balders Gate duo. Ancient (in game life age) games that are still going strong. The Elder Scrolls Morrowind and Oblivion have user made plug-ins (mods) galore.

Now a mod is only as good as the modder and is definitely a user-beware item. I messed up my Morrowind game by installing conflicting mods. Learned the hard way that too much is a baaad thing. What responsibility, if any, does a developer or publisher have if they permit or encourage modding? Make sure you read the warning "These mods are not supported by (insert official name here)."

I love them because I can tailor the game to my own personal likes and dislikes. They are great for single player games but cause problems if there is a multiplayer game.

[Sim Nation]

The image posted by romaq , i agree SC4 isnt even remotley close to being able to simulate the image , of let me guess, bellingham , some of us dont have a clue where bellingham is ,or have any intentions of visiting ,so even if TM make this game to produce a life like bellingham for romaq, it wouldnt mean anything to a player like myself . Some guys are looking for and demanding virtual realism , i think this is very unfair given the limitations of SC4 and that fact that it is just a game and not virtual reality software, something that many people have come to accept .Sc4 isnt realistic, only in the very slightest sense of the word can SC4 be described as realistic . Just a little pionter for john , within SC4 lot editor is a bunch of Maxis props, little bushes ,small trees , flowers ,cherry tree s and even a koi carp pond , ect so the is a little more chioce of flora than just the 4-5 tree types.

There is quite a good chioce of props within sc4 editor , some of which are rarely if ever used on the main lots , which is a shame. This brings me onto my next point , i think its very unfair to download the custom content , and then complain about the dependancies, i agree the list of dependancies for some lots is quite intimidating, and a 10mb download for a texture your missing does seem a little bizare , but in saying that the is a rule which i think holds good , if your not happy about the dependancies or have no experience of managing a plugins folder, then dont download the content, you goto remember that the custom item belongs to the creator,who as been kind enough to share , if the content is good for you , then all well and good, but if you dont like the fact the lot has dependancies then you realy should just quietly move on , after all this content is completely free to all, And i would imagine that the same rule would apply to SCS custom content should the method of presentation to the game be similar to sc4.Dont ever complain about dependancies for sim city content, including anything for SCS, no one forces you to download, or charges for the privilage to use it , Its there if you want it , if you dont , then thats fine also. Also an experienced user can identify a missing dependacy , just by looking at the lot .

Also the are tools available that scan the lot and do list missing dependancies. If you realy want the Bat , but not the dependancies , whip the download into lot editor , and re lot it to your own satisfaction using the maxis props, simple. Im not attacking you john , but you are the first one ive seen to mention dependancies so unfortunalty my post refers to your comment s , hopefully i am offering an informative solution to your dilema .
Some aspects of SCS leave SC4 in the dark ages, and then other aspects of SCS return sim city to the dark ages before the time of sc4, its realy quite confusing to see for an experienced long time sc player .I am not looking for realism ,or maybe realism of the slightest degree, i prefare to use the word believable , rather than realistic. Sc4 never realy had any gameplay so to speak, other than managing the city and budgets, so any extra aspects of gameplay are always welcome. However they shouldnt come at the cost of the things that made Sim city great in the first place and that is ,the city building aspect of the game , Sc4 is the most powerful city game in the world , even at nearly five years old ,imho. Some things in SCS are very unbelievable , for me anyway, as i said im not looking for photo like reality, just something that after the initial honeymoon period of learning the game is over ,that the things that make sc4 great,one or two very important factors are preserved for the potentialy more serious player of SCS .

As it stands the is very little i can personaly relate to in SCS , the city skyline looks superb from a distance. I can live with the bread , the revolting mimes i will assimilate anyway into decent citizens, but the roads i can do nothing about , just a 45deg would make me happy, at least we arent going backwards, SCS appears to be played in a single city tile , so regional transport doesnt seem to be that important, im open minded with sim city , regional or single city ,either or , both are good for me .
Zones ,the zones reduced the amount of micro to some extent if your not bothered about a mish mash of random buildings, but selective bulldozing, makeing over 10,000 homes historical to preserve them once you have eventually got them to grow is the real killer, manually making all these home historical is a real drag and very soul destroying in sc4 3 clicks for each property would be equal to something like 30,000 clicks to preserve a city of low density residential, somedays my lazer mouse looks like its just done the lombard rally.So to get anything looking uniform in Sc4 takes massive amounts of micro and time.Maybe drag a box and make everything historical , should of been the way in sc4. I like the idea we have so much more control of what and where in SCS.Although it will add lots more work for the mayors that are happy to let the zones develop randomly by themselves, with minimal micro management.

Lets hope TM do have one or more suprises up there sleeve to make the game appeal, to a maxis sim city player.

A final note the is a big differance between a bat and a mod for sc4 , a bat is a building of some kind , a mod is code that alters the mechanics of the game,i only have ever used 1 mod in sc4 and thats the Nam , but it does allow the sims to travel more realistic distances ,in a more reasonable time .
________
Vapezilla cost (http://vaporizerinfo.com)

[Romaq]

The third lane really only exists for traffic coming and going from I-5, and the web page it comes from is the Department of Transportation for the State of Washington referring to what a gawdawful mess that specific location happens to be. I used that case as an example of overloaded traffic pertaining to venues, but I could just as well offered this:
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/01/china_468x312.jpg
The point being, it's very rare to consider 'cities' without having to consider the massive impact of transit.

And yes, it would help a great deal on custom content to plan for 'massive' custom content from the start, how to deal with it, and how to provide 'hints' on resolving conficting custom content beyond crashing to the desktop. Woe is me that SC4's 'brown boxes' couldn't provide hints just by clicking on them, "You are missing X by Y which was last seen at http://Z"

--Romaq

[Ocram]

From industrial/low-wealth buildings to transportation I like where this thread has gone (and 5 pages!!!!!) I will update this thread with more pictures tomorrow (or possibly Tuesday) and will make posts every so often so this thread won't be (completely) hijacked. Transportation is also important and the GOSH AWFUL roads of SC:S have been the topic of many a thread at multiple sites (oficcial and fan based).

[Christian IV]

Talking 'bout traffic and how important it is for the real feel of the game:

How do SC4 (vanilla and modded) deal with bike lanes? In Denmark, bike lanes are almost as integral a part of the general road system as the white stripes in the middle of the road. Especially in the cities, a very large proportion of the personal transportation is being done by bike:

http://www.slotsvaenget-ltk.dk/6storage/214/cyklister.jpg

Bikes are everywhere:

http://www.mitkbh.dk/uploads/4177608eb0ee00126d96f7871f68dcf4.jpg

So bike lanes are integrated into the road system in different ways:

http://www.vestamt.dk/vej/efterstrukturreformen/VejensNaboer/Foto/Byggelinie.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Katarinavagen_Stockholm_Sweden_2005-06-06.jpg
(The above is from Stockholm, Sweden, but could just as well have been in Denmark.)

http://www.vejdirektoratet.dk/publikationer/VDrap309/images/image_2-su30_203.jpg

http://www.backhome.dk/images/big/AES_0352.jpg

How are things like that done in SC4 (or earlier)? If you want a realistic Northern European traffic system, bikes are a must have.

[Sim Nation]

Out of all Sim City games i have encountered , only SC4 rush hour skims the surface of realism. Bike lanes including bike props are available , quite a few sets actually as custom content for Sc4 rush hour,i dont think they are transit enabled or that you can simulate a sim commuting by bicycle, but they are available as candy. But no bike lanes , were available in Vanilla sc4 . More and more bike lanes are appearing throughout the Uk these days.

Seeing as we dont have proper roads in SCS i would estimate your chances of getting bike lanes in SCS at a probable ,none.
________
DART (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Dodge_Dart)

[John-SJ]

edit: (referring to Sim Nation's penultimate post)

Thanks Sim nation, that is some useful information, things I did not know.

It is likely though that I personally will not make much use of it. You see, I like to play games a lot more than I like tinkering around with files and utilities. That is really why I expressed the hope that Tilted Mill has built in support for making the use of custom content easier. If I add content, a ew building or whatever, I don't want to spend an hour customizing it so I can load it without having the 2-4 dependency packs that are required and I can't find. I want to add the content, load the game, and start playing, or as close to that as possible. The further from that formula Societies is, the less likely I will take advantage of the custom content.

Again though, thanks for sharing those tips, I'm sure they will be useful.

[Sim Nation]

Where as i dont mind spending an hour customising something that has taken weeks to model . But i would agree that scale 3 d modeling and texturing just to retrieve a set of images to be used in game is a lot of work , i realy look forwards to tm s innovation on how to get custom buildings/animated props into SCS.
________
Herbalaire Temperature (http://vaporizerinfo.com)

[Ocram]

Here are some more pictures.
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7913/steeltownwholecitypv2.gif http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/811/steeltownatnightih4.gif http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5095/steeltownhospitalxw7.gif http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/6936/steeltownfactorywo6.gif

[Ocram]

In case anybody wanted to see productivity city screenshots of SC:S here they are.
http://uoem.com/gallery/files/1/Robber_Baron_City_1_Tenement_Street_level.jpg
http://uoem.com/gallery/files/1/scsocpcscrnindustrymood1.jpg
http://uoem.com/gallery/files/1/Robber_Baron_City_4_Tenements.jpg

[Ocram]

I'm sorry if any pictures are too big. Please inform me if they are. Also, why are nobody posting in this thread anymore (if they're afraid that I'll get angry at hijackers, I won't and I'll just steer the thread back in the right direction if I feel it's necesarry -- or babble on about how nice it would be if more roads, streets, avenues, alleys, and highways were made)

[John-SJ]

Wow! Gritty!

Say, where did these pictures come from? Are these ones that have been around awhile? Or new ones?

[Corinthian]

I saw those giant screenshots and felt an impulse to hold right click and drag to the right, so I could see more...wishful impulsing, I know, but still... it was glorious for a brief moment.

I have seen the middle one before. I believe it is a view through the wings of a sweatshop, based on this evidence here. (http://forums.worldsims.org/gallery/showimage.php?i=3347&c=67)

[Romaq]

The images caught Mikaela's eye, and she's looking forward to having fun with it. I'm on high-speed bandwidth, and the images are not too big for me, though cropped & thumbnailed versions might be better for others.

And thank you Ocram for not getting angry over well-meaning people acting pretty much like people tend to act. I see things, thoughts come to mind, and I post on what catches my interest. That may not be the intent of the person who started the post, but the forum has a decent churn rate and after a bit parts of it start to blur.

One factor in the SC4 vs. SC:S building variety is simply the fact of custom content stewing for the last ... what is it, four years? SC4 out-of-the-box content is ok, but not really that great. If SC:S is built with great hooks for custom content, and EA puts out the red carpet and invests in getting (insert pages long list of custom content wizards) on board, then whatever SC:S has out of the box won't compare to SC:S four years from now. Same story as SC4 out of the box isn't the same game as SC4 + insert pages long list of custom SC4 content.

I'm still looking for bean spillage, details and something to work with regarding SC:S. Having Ocram's pictures is a good place to start.

And again, thank you Ocram for not biting me even if I do loose focus in the churn, I have my own adgenda that I tend to focus on, and I happen to find my own comments entertaining even if everyone else finds me boorish. While I am doubtful about some aspects of SC:S, and grudging in my acceptance of it, I do want to see good things with the product, howevermuch my definition of 'good' fits with anyone elses.

--Romaq

[Sim Nation]

The images are realy good over all , one or two graphics glitches , texture problems and jaggies(checks video card aliasing settings)but much better than sc4 at the closest zoom even though lacking in SC4 detail levels , but these are alpha images im told ,and they do say the art critique as nothing to add as per say>if i can move away from my SC4 vision of SC5 and play SCS with an open mind ,i could realy enjoy this game on its own merit .

Are the road surfaces realy that bad in the USA ? The road surface wear and tear does seem very much overdone , some of the cracks appear to be maybe 225mm /9-10 inches across, i understand you have a ora to create of dirty low wealth industrial , sublte touches can achieve this effect , but it is possible to go a little overboard with these effects ,imho . Also as mayor i would not be willing to accept part of my city in this condition , i would use the wealth of the city to ensure even the low wealth area s had good road sufaces .The saving s to the city in fewer liability cases of personal injury,fewer working days lost ,a general feeling that the mayor does care offsets most of the cost, it would also encourage more business to my city, low wealth plays a very important role in SC4 ,i always use the wealth of my city to ensure all my low wealth areas have the same level of service and standards, maybe i dont use blue pearl granite pavers in my low wealth areas , but i try to make them nice , although they do remain to be seen as a low wealth area .
I think , the is a fine like between gritty and state of dis repair .
Another good advantage of keeping a low wealth area reasonable ,is it keeps the sims happy and less prone to riot, crime and other past times that cost the city money.

So i always found that it was far more benificial to the city to maintane certian standards , even in a low wealth area.

Seems like a lot of drivil to ask for an alternative optional lower wealth reasonable quality road surface, or maybe ive missed something .

If you guys spin this around place a bunch of lawyers on the corner , just waiting , even encouraging folks to take the fall of finacial gain , this could turn out to be realy quite humourous.

Also i do hope polution plays a role in SCS and not just an effect, that green smoke looks awfuly toxic .
________
GAY TRUCKERS (http://www.****tube.com/categories/641/truckers/videos/1)

[Ocram]

I got the productivity/industry pictures from WorldSims (I think ManagerJosh's gallery) they are listed as being from the Robber-Baron city (1930s great depression industrial cities -- like Pittsburg or some bad neighborhood in NYC or Chicago, etc). As far as I know, all the roads look like the above pictures (with cracks, gouges and maybe some potholes) when the dominant energy is Productivity. TM also said that pollution plays a factor in yoiur sims' health and that there are different types of pollution with different effects (they mentioned greenhouse gasses and global warming AKA climate change). Green colored smoke/fumes looks very toxic and might even be radioactive for all I know (which isn't much).
Sorry if I dont sight my sources. I _think_ I heard about pollution in one of the movies/demonstrations. I'm not sure.

Sincerely,
Ocram

[John-SJ]

Aha! I guess I have seen those pictures then, but awhile ago and I just didn't remember. Anyway, thanks Ocram!

[Ocram]

You're Welcome. BTW, I'm thinking about posting pictures from/of City Life (Wrld Edtn) of Fringe, Blue Collar, and Have-/Not buildings and neighboorhoods.

[John-SJ]

Go for it! I (at least) would be interested in seeing this, and reading your commentary as well!

[Sim Nation]

the Robber-Baron city (1930s great depression industrial cities -- like Pittsburg or some bad neighborhood in NYC or Chicago, etc

I guess playing the robber baron style of SCS,im going to fail miserably.In fact i will probably fail at all the aspects of the game that involves mistreating poisoning your sims .

Ive desparatley tried to stay away from unfinished game screenshots , they seem to have got me into quite a bit of trouble upto now, so i wasnt aware of the explanation that goes with these particular shots , thankyou for completeing the vision ocram . And your thoughts on the polution , i hope they take the polution aspect to an extreme of should you continualy fail to address the issues, while continuing to increase production , this ultimatly leads to some serious consequenses for your city, maybe take it one step ahead of today , and predict what will eventually happen to cities like NY Chicargo over the next half of this century , Something i always wanted to see in Sim city was a dome that protects the hole of the city from the atmosphere when the Co levels rise to suffacation levels which makes the air unbreathable by my sims.
The dome is going to cost the city more than it can afford , you cannot protect the whole of the city , you willl need to make chioces ,or decide who to spare , the whole situation creates choas and riots,anarchy sets in if the persuing unrest doesnt destory the city the polution certianly will, just maybe if i sell everything , sellable the city ownes to sim nation, borrow from them , on the basis of the value of the remainder of my assets i may just be able to raise the funds to cover the cost of the larger dome .However TM handle the concept of polution i hope they do offer us a away out ,not an easy one mind you, should we choose to alter are ways.

I would personly play a game to this final achievement level quite happily ,it would be nice to see the sims face some very real world global challanges.Now if i had a military in SCS my ideas might be a little differant.
________
Easy vape digital review (http://vaporizer.org)

[John-SJ]

...I'm still looking for bean spillage, details and something to work with regarding SC:S. Having Ocram's pictures is a good place to start.
...
--Romaq
Me too! The wait shouldn't (I hope!) be too long now. :D

/me rubs his hands together in anticipation

[Ocram]

Here's my version of the Sims' National flag and a Knowledge (and prosperity) skyscraper in the Gothic Style/order (just modern/futuristic) using modern materials originally planned to be made into a Suit/Elite office building.
Here's Simlish pizza ad/sign (athoritatan) and a SimNation flag (based on the French flag, just flipped/turned 180 and with the Sims emerald/crystal)
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/6071/simpizzasignow4.png http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7291/simsflagqr8.jpg
And of the promised towers/skysrapers from CL.
http://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/5462/2h/images.gamezone.com/screens/28/3/46/s28346_pc_54.jpg http://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/5462/2h/images.gamezone.com/screens/28/3/46/s28346_pc_55.jpg http://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/5462/2h/images.gamezone.com/screens/28/3/46/s28346_pc_48.jpg http://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/5462/2h/images.gamezone.com/screens/28/3/46/s28346_pc_31.jpg

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1306/futuristicgothicskyscraaq5.th.png (http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=futuristicgothicskyscraaq5.png)

[Romaq]

Model Swappage between CU <--> SCS might be interesting.

--Romaq

[Sim Nation]

Well the worst im going to come out with from this ,is a new game and a least 350 new ideas ,hmm 351 ideas for new buildings for sc4 .The tower looks super ocram , with maybe a 60 metre golden spire added aswell just to finish it off. I dont understand why it say beans on it , but i can imagine it modeled and textured in a preview render , shiny.. It has a touch or a feel to me of ,Klingon architecture ,i think if the mid structural section was maybe shaped similar to the Klingon batlar(not sure on spelling of that ) textured in a metalic stainless steel clad ,it would be quite at home placed within the city of coruscant. I like it its futuristic .Also it could be constructed to double up as a rocket , should the need ever arise to evacuate ones self ,from the face of imminent global disaster.
________
PORTABLE VAPORIZER REVIEW (http://www.vaporshop.com)

[Ocram]

Architectural discussion continued at http://www.simtropolis.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=367&threadid=94442&highlight_key=y&keyword1=Gothic

[Ocram]

Just to be fair, I willl upload picture of an industrial city and a romantic one. I love the old fashioned and the high tech cities (maybe not old and new mixed...) for different reasons.