Trade between cities? [Archive] - Tilted Mill Community

Romaq

08-18-2007, 01:24 AM

A concept I had cooked up consisted of an initial region that was really nothing more than a huge height map with flora, terrain and such on it. An initial 'entry point' in the form of a highway would be placed on the edge as an option, or a port. And that is where sims 'come from'. Other points could be made as well to 'SimNation'.

Within this region you could have limited power for 'no services' residential, and develop highway exchanges and whatnot within a certain budget provided by SimNation. Not much money, only enough to cover the highway built. If you want more, you have to 'incorporate' a city within a limited area, likely along that highway or other port of entry. The clock/ calendar would be kept consistant with all areas. If you were focused on a given incorporated city, other cities would 'develop', but only at an end of the month cycle hidden from you unless you entered and let the other cities develop before the end of that month.

That way, you could have 'some' disconnect between the CPU being spent on a city under focus and cities NOT being focused upon, but at the end of the month it would produce reports and get caught up on everything.

If you wanted to focus on a particular city and simply let others go their own way, they would do so according to the rules built in. If you wanted to micromanage the entire region, you could do that as well. It would make for a rather complex city-builder, and outside the scope of the goals for the SC:S project. But my idea is excellent vaporware.

At this point we don't know what distinctions are made between 'neighborhoods' and 'cities'. A 'city' might be what we consider as a region, totally disconnected from everything around it, and the issue of 'trade' between cities is simply non-existant. It appears Dirk attempted to set up two distinct 'neighborhoods', but as many effects appear to be global, there may not be a real sense of 'neighborhood' within a given SC:S 'city'. My example of Lynden/ Bellingham/ Ferndale may simply be outside of the scope provided by SC:S language. Since transit and physical isolation appear to be a big factor in the development of unique town identities within a given area in real life, it appears SC:S does not have the language to describe 'inter city trade' effects.

--Romaq

MarkDuffy

08-18-2007, 01:25 AM

Still in development? Considering, as you pointed out in another thread, that they've written the strategy guide I'd say it's way past "still in development."

Yup, still in development. Definitely.

The Prima Game Guide doesn't even have an author yet nor a cover. They will be updating & rewriting it up to publication date. It will also have a few errors, just like the C4 Game Guide did & for the very same reason (Scenario walkthroughs). The game will be in development right up to the day it goes GOLD!

PS ~ Some of you might have been thrown off by my use of the word "region". If you read it again, I said like other TM games. Triggered World Map in COTN & Empire Map in C4.

Romaq

08-18-2007, 02:59 AM

Well, not having a clue concerning 'like other TM games', the only fallback I have on 'regions' is 'SC4 regions'. To be sure, SC4 regions are somewhere between awful and not very pleasant to work with.

Now, for something like the Empire Map, perhaps there is a means to compile a "big freakin' region map", 'freeze' the map, and then simply use the 'frozen' map in the same fashion of Empire Maps with C4. As soon as my wife gives up her computer, I'll install C4 and see how things behave. The advantage of 'freezing' the region map is that, even if cities are unable to have intra-city transit or 'data' pass between them, I could at least dream of them doing so. That also leaves room for a game expansion that allows for intra-city transit and data/ sims exchange.

I think I'll be in a better position to grasp TM's approach to regions after I've spent time with C4.

--Romaq

MarkDuffy

08-18-2007, 08:47 AM

Now, if we build two or more "separate" cities on a SCS map, I'm positive there will be trade between them.

The only question is what will be traded. ;)

Romaq

08-18-2007, 08:55 AM

Some assets are global, some are by area effect. Assets that are global are unaffected by transit. Assets by area affect are unaffected by transit beyond carry capacity. And, of course, building more roads is the solution since there is no benefit to building a cheaper form of road now in lieu of planning more efficient transit later.

BTW I did the first scenario in C4. I'm jealous of their diagonal roads. Oh I do so very much hope TM can show transit some love.

--Romaq

MarkDuffy

08-18-2007, 08:59 AM

Some assets are global, some are by area effect. Assets that are global are unaffected by transit. Assets by area affect are unaffected by transit beyond carry capacity. And, of course, building more roads is the solution since there is no benefit to building a cheaper form of road now in lieu of planning more efficient transit later.

Romaq, you really need to try to get outside the tiny box you live in. ;)

Romaq

08-18-2007, 09:07 AM

Perhaps, but my box has really nice highways with overpasses in it. > : )

--Romaq

MarkDuffy

08-18-2007, 09:11 AM

Your box is also a bit too repetitive. :D

Romaq

08-18-2007, 09:12 AM

Point taken. :)

MarkDuffy

08-18-2007, 09:23 AM

I'm also willing to bet that Romaq, along with the other SC4 naysayers, will like (even love) SCS!

You don't need to give up your love of SC4 to make room for SCS. This is NOT a zero sum thingie! :)

Romaq

08-18-2007, 09:58 AM

I know, I know. Important factors for me for SC:S though...

1) A 'test run' using Caesar IV reveals Mikaela gets too 'sea sick' playing in a full 3d world. This has been a problem with other 3d games. Rotation of the view screen simply gives her the willies. SC:S doesn't look so good if she's going to be sick trying to play it. SC4 with a fixed view is a much better option for her, if I would quit making it more confusing instead of less to her.

2) My interest in SC:S is rather tied to activity in which my wife and I can both participate in. If SC:S is out for her, SC:S isn't as compelling to me.

3) Time is a fixed and limited resource. So is the cost of the game, though $20 isn't so bad, once the price of the game drops to that point. But regarding the issue of time: If I'm *lucky*, I intend to work as many hours a week as I can handle juggling computer admin for one or more firms in the near future. SC:S could be the best city builder ever created in existance. I'll have money to buy it, I simply won't have time to play it *and* SC4, possibly not time for either.

4) I've spent last night reviewing the places I grew up in Indianapolis referring both to 1988 topography maps and 'recent' GoogleEarth images. I've traced curvy highways, diagonal 4 lane roads and two lane roads. I'm looking for 10m DEM data I can use for recreating that in SC4, starting with the land and moving to major transit and such. Someone's CJ in SimTropolis of Indianpolis really made an emotional connection with me based upon the reality SC4 is able to portray.

Based upon the screenshots and limited data I have at this time, my expectations for SC:S to make those sorts of emotional connections to real life places is somewhere between slim to not very much. Much has changed in the 20 years in some areas, but the roads as I remember them didn't change very much. And they were not all four lanes paved or four lanes dirt, gridded north and south only.

No, it's not 'zero sum', but the time <--> money equation doesn't get much bigger. More money means less time, and I intend to make a lot of money. And I don't 'love' SC4, I love connections between real life things I understand and believe in with virtual things that allow me to interact with those things I understand and believe in. It isn't SC4, it's SC:S. And SC:S isn't quite there for me. Not yet. Maybe later, we'll see.

--Romaq

MarkDuffy

08-18-2007, 10:14 AM

Mikaela doesn't play SC4, Romaq; yet you still do. Your post-count time also betrays you. Games are cheap!

People also can get sea-sick on their first boat ride. It goes away with experience. ;)

Ocram

08-18-2007, 02:36 PM

The following sentances are my GUESSES and are based on my opinions on SC4 and SC:S (so far) the info I gathered from various fansites (esp Simtropolis)
Cities behave like regions and are likely to be the size of (fairview? what was the name of that little region [smnallest region shipped with SC4 Deluxe] that had a river and a large steep hill/small mountain on it's peninsula?) a tiny region or 1/4-1/2 the size of the "Plains" regions that SC4 let's yo make (than terraform and incorperate cities in).

Azeem

08-18-2007, 08:26 PM

1) A 'test run' using Caesar IV reveals Mikaela gets too 'sea sick' playing in a full 3d world. This has been a problem with other 3d games. Rotation of the view screen simply gives her the willies. SC:S doesn't look so good if she's going to be sick trying to play it. SC4 with a fixed view is a much better option for her, if I would quit making it more confusing instead of less to her.

3d really does take some getting used to. I also had that same feeling when playing CotN and its free fully-3d camera for the first time. If you play the game long enough (maybe a handful of sessions), you can get accustomed to the 3d environment much better. :)

nexusdog

08-19-2007, 12:02 PM

Great idea.
That was one thing i disliked about SC4. I wanted my cities to affect each other more. And the commuting and selling utilities between cities often caused problems.
I would LOVE that.

I think this is the thing I'm most intrigued in as well.

Online play would be suited to this, or co-op regional... whatever. Didn't the EA site have something like this once, though?

I'm feeling hemmed in by SC:S' one map only approach, it doesn't offer any context in a bigger world, which is what I supposed we're used to with SC4.

Man, keeping up with the posts these days is a nightmare, I can't keep up!

MarkDuffy

08-19-2007, 12:31 PM

I'm feeling hemmed in by SC:S' one map only approach, it doesn't offer any context in a bigger world, which is what I supposed we're used to with SC4.

What do you mean, "one map"? SCS will have tons of maps & a map Editor also probably.

A random map generator would also be excellent.

nexusdog

08-19-2007, 12:32 PM

Now, if we build two or more "separate" cities on a SCS map, I'm positive there will be trade between them.

The only question is what will be traded. ;)

Clowns, monkeys.... Will Smith countermeasures training

Incidentally, I decided to grab a copy of CotN.

The power of corruption, eh? :D

MarkDuffy

08-19-2007, 12:34 PM

Incidentally, I decided to grab a copy of CotN.

Excellent! Try Caesar IV also. Both are great games! :)

nexusdog

08-19-2007, 12:42 PM

What do you mean, "one map"? SCS will have tons of maps & a map Editor also probably.

A random map generator would also be excellent.

I'm having trouble keeping up with all the threads, so apologies if I've missed something, but from what I've seen, or thought I understood, was that one game, was one society in a map, not interconnected to other games or societies in progress, a al SC4's region tiles.

I know, I'm not explaining myself very well - lack of sleep since mid-week has left me in a semi-vegetative state, sorry.

To go back to the notion of online/co op play, I'd like the idea of opting into a regional type game between players;

society(city)
county
country
nation
continent

Fat chance, eh?

MarkDuffy

08-19-2007, 01:17 PM

I'm having trouble keeping up with all the threads, so apologies if I've missed something, but from what I've seen, or thought I understood, was that one game, was one society in a map, not interconnected to other games or societies in progress, a al SC4's region tiles.

We will have some HUGE maps in SCS & maps of all sizes. We will probably be able to build separate cities of some kind IF our computers are good enough to handle large populations/map sizes. TM will design SCS so it can be also played on minimum computers (hopefully to include mine). Perhaps not all the bells & whistles & larger population sizes/maps, however. TM has always tried to address all types of computers & players.

I'm sure you already know that the claim of a 10K population cap was a bogus rumor?

I understand that, today's beanz, there is no "region play" that SC4 fans are used to (whatever THAT is). Tomorrow's beanz or even an Expansion? Who knows?

We should get a look at the next alpha build at either GC Leipzig or shortly after. Jeff Fiske has told us this much.

Azeem

08-19-2007, 05:47 PM

"Minimum computers" is a pretty big word. Just what is the minimum these days? My laptop can barely play Civilization IV (but lags madly at larger map sizes), a game that's already a few years old.

No worries though. A computer store with all the latest gadgetry is just a ten minute walk away. That's the beauty of living in Samsung country. :D

Romaq

08-19-2007, 06:53 PM

The freak'n' "Garbage Can" el-cheapo computer @ Wal-Mart across the streat spanks my current computer on CPU speed. My next computer will likely be dual core and support 4 to 8G on the board. Populating the board may be a different issue, and of course I'll have to have Windows Vista to actually 'see' all the memory.

The faster you go, the faster you have to run just to stay behind.

--Romaq

Corinthian

08-19-2007, 09:37 PM

The faster you go, the faster you have to run just to stay behind.

--Romaq

Wherever you're at, is where you are, dude.

MarkDuffy

08-19-2007, 11:50 PM

The freak'n' "Garbage Can" el-cheapo computer @ Wal-Mart across the streat spanks my current computer on CPU speed.

Yeah, but the graphics card probably sucks. ;)

Romaq

08-20-2007, 12:55 AM

Wherever you're at, is where you are, dude.

This is true for the consumer, yes.

For the company producing software, the key word is 'production', and wherever a company is today means a company is bankrupt if they are still there tomorrow.

Of course, that's why TM is trying a new approach to SimCity. Rewriting SC4 in true 3D isn't the way to attract new fans. And, in turn, that means higher expectations for SimCity.

Yeah, but the graphics card probably sucks.

And this is likely true. But knowing what a cheap computer consists of sets the expectation of what a higher priced computer ought to be capable of. Hardware production is always in a race.

I told my wife I wanted a Sun BlackBox for Christmas (http://www.sun.com/emrkt/blackbox/). She said I was welcome to as soon as I could supply a 60 gallon per minute coolant water supply, a 600-amp power source and a fiber data line to connect it to. A permit for an 8' x 8' x 20' shipping container would also need to be added. It's kinda out of our household budget, but it sure would be fun to play with.

--Romaq

evilchatbot

08-20-2007, 03:43 AM

A region where the computer runs the n,w,s,east cities. (not graphically, just as information of course, for memory sake)

Regional population starts with a certain number, and grow depending on the wellness of these 5 cities. food, health, crime.. etc

You start with a set budget.. and hope to one day rival and even surpass the other 4 cities... pulling those cities citizens. Depending on which of the 5 cities is a better place to live, the sims will migrate. Either in or out of your city and into or out of the northern, southern, eastern, or western city.

Cites would trade natural resources, lives stock. grains, etc.

Then I woke up and realized SC:S will be about clown and western "themed" cities. :(

Azeem

08-20-2007, 04:15 AM

Then I woke up and realized SC:S will be about clown and western "themed" cities. :(

From what we know so far from the info released, "clown" or "themed" cities are merely optional.

I'd like some sort of "region play" myself, but if that's not doable, them at least something along the lines of CotN where you can program the interactions other "world-level" sites are going to have with your city. :)

Romaq

08-20-2007, 07:02 AM

I didn't get so much Caesar IV time this weekend, but I noted on the very first city of play I have... I think that's the 'apron'. Correction on this is welcome, as I didn't hear of 'Apron' until I came to this website. Anyway, it started with a road already in place, and the road fades off at this border. The point at which it fades off is where people are seen entering the city you are building in C4.

The notion I have is that, at a minimum, you could have a very large area in a height map, and then 'freeze' that area, then 'thaw out' a section of the map for your city, likely no more than a certain designated size. You could then build the city and perhaps 'freeze' it again before working on another city. At that point, it starts sounding quite a bit like Cities in SC4. But that would be one means to limit scope and the impact upon the hardware while having a limited slice of the benefits of a 'huge' region. This would also let me build Mt. Baker, which is around 2.5 hours drive away in the background of Bellingham on the bay.

There would still be 'time sync' issues, and so on. Perhaps a 'region' master file of just the height map, then a list of cities by name and GUID along with an index. Then if I manipulate a city, only the region gets touched (if at all) and the city, instead of SC4 where ALL the cities make up the region, and ALL adjacent city files get 'touched' as they exchange relationship info. And 'touching' a file creates issues for multi-players. But that gets into technical stuff and I'm not sure to what extent any of my technical reference would matter.

--Romaq

deathtopumpkins

08-20-2007, 09:35 AM

deathtopumpkins

08-20-2007, 09:37 AM

Man, keeping up with the posts these days is a nightmare, I can't keep up!

I completely agree with you. All the 'more replies below current depth' links are getting to me. It seems you have to read every last post to 'get' the thread.

deathtopumpkins

08-20-2007, 09:40 AM

Online play would be suited to this, or co-op regional... whatever. Didn't the EA site have something like this once, though?

Yeah, simcityscape. But by the time I actually registered on there, it didn't seem to be working anymore.
Anyone know what happened to it?
Did people just stop using it?

deathtopumpkins

08-20-2007, 09:43 AM

Yeah, but the graphics card probably sucks. ;)

Time for a new one! That's what i did with my computer.

Romaq

08-20-2007, 05:29 PM

I like what you're saying, but as for the other cities in the region developed on their own, wouldn't that cause problems when you went back into that city? If building kept developing without you to build roads to keep up with the capacity, then the city would be a transit nightmare when you went back in.

NOTE: I am using the term 'region' loosely, since we don't know exactly how cities will be set up in SCS.

It's always a problem of costs vs. benefits. The more detail you have in a city, particularly wth individual people, the slower the sim is going to run. To keep that detail managable, you cut down on the total number of people. You have smaller cities at run-time, you loose a 'regional' approach to city-building. If you want to keep more of a regional approach, you have to introduce 'smoke and mirrors' to 'fake' simulation you do not wish to run directly. 'Smoke & mirrors' to fake simulation isn't as good as *really* running the simulation.

That's what makes software development so interesting. You have to decide how to go about robbing St. Peter for enough money to bribe St. Paul.

--Romaq

deathtopumpkins

08-20-2007, 07:45 PM

It's always a problem of costs vs. benefits. The more detail you have in a city, particularly wth individual people, the slower the sim is going to run. To keep that detail managable, you cut down on the total number of people. You have smaller cities at run-time, you loose a 'regional' approach to city-building. If you want to keep more of a regional approach, you have to introduce 'smoke and mirrors' to 'fake' simulation you do not wish to run directly. 'Smoke & mirrors' to fake simulation isn't as good as *really* running the simulation.

--Romaq

Yes, but if they do do that it shoudl be an option you can turn off. I might use it, and i might not. I still just think it will cause too many problems.

Romaq

08-21-2007, 08:49 AM

Turning 'off' multiple cities, sticking just with a single city, 'inventing' a means to 'communicate values' between cities using Custom Content... we endusers do not know what the limitations are at this time, what Application Programming Interfaces (APIs) will be opened to us. And even for APIs that are *NOT* explicitly opened and documented... the NAM team STILL came up with NAM 2007 with curvy roads for SC4. So there exists within SC:S the possibility of creating ability for things where none existed before. It becomes an issue of time and interest to pursue such matters. Or the features may be built in, but just in a way that is as yet unknown to us, or maybe different than we expect.

Keep in mind, also, the problem with offering very 'cpu expensive' features within a game. If for a given feature, such as intra-city exchange of traffic, assets and whatnot: If a player thinks the feature is 'basic' to the game, and said feature turns an average game box into something resembling the speed and power of a 486, the blame tends to fall on the game and not upon the inadequacy of the enduser's hardware. "I bought my computer three years ago and when I played your game, it ran slow and clunky. My computer isn't that old, therefor your game sucks and you didn't write it well." Nope, no way around it the average person's expectations with new games on older hardware. It will always be TM's fault my computer suxxors.

That's the problem with wishing for things like intra-city traffic, and much in life. Sometimes, if you are really really unlucky, you get what you ask for.

--Romaq

deathtopumpkins

08-21-2007, 09:03 AM

I don't have any custom content in my game, and i probably won't in SCS. I rarely download anything for any game, except the sims 2.
My computer is three years old, but we've upgraded it since then with a new graphics card and whatnot, and it can still handle TS2 (and all EPs), SC4 (plus rush hour), rollercoaster tycoon (with all EPs), railroad tycoon 3, sid meier's railroads, and a few smaller games. (Yes I know I have a wide variety of games). And I don't have a super computer. TS2 is a big game, adn if my computer can handle it and a bunch of other games, and not run slow, then I don't think "intra-city exchange of traffic, assets and whatnot" would be TOO cpu expensive, since SC4 isn't and we have basic forms of that in it.

deathtopumpkins

08-21-2007, 09:19 AM

A region where the computer runs the n,w,s,east cities. (not graphically, just as information of course, for memory sake)

Regional population starts with a certain number, and grow depending on the wellness of these 5 cities. food, health, crime.. etc

You start with a set budget.. and hope to one day rival and even surpass the other 4 cities... pulling those cities citizens. Depending on which of the 5 cities is a better place to live, the sims will migrate. Either in or out of your city and into or out of the northern, southern, eastern, or western city.

This is exactly like SC3000 unltd. Why you would want to go back a step, i don't know, but that is definatly how SC3000unltd. was set up.

nexusdog

08-21-2007, 01:42 PM

EDIT... I don't think "intra-city exchange of traffic, assets and whatnot" would be TOO cpu expensive, since SC4 isn't and we have basic forms of that in it.

Romaq can correct me on this, but I've always thought that this kind of issue was down to effective, efficient programming more than anything else. The only reason I say this is because of the heads up the modding scene (can't remember if I've got that right, actually) got from Will Wright & Spore, getting massive content and gameplay out of miniscule packaged programs.

Some of the games that have shipped in my collection beggars belief and as a customer I've every right to complain until the veins stand out on my temples about not being fit for purpose. But then again, attentive devs/publishers would, in an ideal world, be able to create their product which could help with crash issues simply by including an error/crash reporting tool, wouldn't everyone agree? Oh, and add a system optimisation proggy as well, while you're at it.

TM, you know it makes sense, don't you?

deathtopumpkins

08-21-2007, 02:58 PM

The only reason I say this is because of the heads up the modding scene (can't remember if I've got that right, actually) got from Will Wright & Spore, getting massive content and gameplay out of miniscule packaged programs.

I had forgotten about the very small files for spore. TM, this is a good idea. That would definately enable you to make the game more... what's the word for it... hmm...
You could put more into the game in a smaller space. There you go.

nexusdog

08-21-2007, 03:05 PM

I had forgotten about the very small files for spore. TM, this is a good idea. That would definately enable you to make the game more... what's the word for it... hmm...
You could put more into the game in a smaller space. There you go.

Hmm.. compact? efficient? clever? groovy?

I know what you're getting at, if that helps? :D

Y'know, since I started finding out about Spore, and the thinking behind it; modding scene compacting info into smallest of spaces, along with procedurally generated content, I am baffled why these two issues haven't been devoured by the industry as it's the natural progression on how to do things.

Oh, and it also embarrasses 'the professionals' when amateurs have the inclination and ability to better them.

No offense, TM

deathtopumpkins

08-21-2007, 03:43 PM

Hmm.. compact? efficient? clever? groovy?

I know what you're getting at, if that helps? :D

Yeah. Those work. :D Thanks.

Y'know, since I started finding out about Spore, and the thinking behind it; modding scene compacting info into smallest of spaces, along with procedurally generated content, I am baffled why these two issues haven't been devoured by the industry as it's the natural progression on how to do things.

Oh, and it also embarrasses 'the professionals' when amateurs have the inclination and ability to better them.

No offense, TM

Yeah, game developers should definately use this technology to their advantage. When I first heard about it a little while back, I figured that all the new games would have it. The only games I know of that are usign it are Spore and TS3.

Romaq

08-21-2007, 07:48 PM

For an idea of all of what proceedural generation can accomplish with terrain, download WorldMachine (http://www.world-machine.com/) and play with the free version.

Noteworthy issues:

Making truely life-like beautiful areas requires knowledge of what proceedural generation can and can't do.

One must use multiple layers of proceedural generation depending upon the size of the area to be generated. Doing so is much more an artform than a science.

Be advised, for all the talk of over population the world is filled with lots and lots and lots of absolutely nothing of very much interest. Proceedural generation can do just exactly that: fill areas with nothing much very interesting.

Interest generally relies on context. Context generally relies on people. Indianapolis matters as a hub to midwest cities going in all directions. SanFrancisco matters as having a huge bay making a safe harbor. Bellingham, WA matters as a decent stopover between Vancouver & Seattle, each of which matters as major, major harbors in their own right. Bellingham also matters as a site with a major university and as an ongoing venue able to weather changes in the exchange rate. Canadians dump a whole-lotta-money into Bellingham. Blaine was not able to weather the exchange rate cycle, and so went from boom to bust and it still hasn't recovered for all the money spent in Bellingham by Canadians.

The issues described above are not 'helped' by proceedural TERRAIN generation. They are social, political and economic issues. Notice I used 'proceedural TERRAIN generation'. You could still use proceedural generation to craft social, political and economic history out of nothing. You could, but at a certain point it's MUCH cheaper to hire a human brain to craft landscape AND come up with the history, background and context. At least, it's cheaper to do so today, and that's why you don't have that being done in realtime on your computer. Yet. Today.

Tomorrow? That's still up for grabs.

Proceedural generation is still a tool with severe limitations, not the least of which it is EXPENSIVE (in CPU time, not necessarily cost) to use within a game. Go ahead, download World-Machine and 'cruise' in a proceedural world. Nothing interactive, you can just 'drive around' in realtime and look at stuff. Tell me what you think about a 'dune-buggy drive' within World-Machine and how such technology could be applied to a city builder (or any other game) in 3D AFTER you drive around for a bit.

--Romaq

deathtopumpkins

08-21-2007, 07:55 PM

nexusdog

08-22-2007, 12:02 AM

I'm very particular about what I download, so could you please just tell us about it, and also what "proceedural generation" is, because I would also like to know about it. I'm not very familiar with aspects of computer usage such as this, so a little info is desired. I'm always up for learning something new though.

Procedural generation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procedural_generation) from Wikipedia

Contains information about the concept and examples, including Spore.

It's 6 a.m. & I've been awake 2 hours already... I hate insomnia

Here's a little of what it says:

"An exception is Will Wright's Spore, an upcoming video game title populated entirely with procedurally generated content. Some "procedurally generated" elements also appeared in previous games: the first Soldier of Fortune from Raven Software used simple routines to add random detail to enemy models. To a certain degree, it could be said that the lighting in Doom 3 from id Software is "procedurally generated" because it does not rely on lightmaps precomputed using a radiosity process. More recently Avalanche Studios have been using procedural generation to create a large and varied group of tropical islands with high detail in their game Just Cause.

The modern demoscene uses procedural generation for squeezing a lot of impressive audiovisual content into very small executable programs. Farbrausch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farbrausch)is a team famous for its achievements in this area, although many similar techniques were already implemented by The Black Lotus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Lotus) in the 1990's."

Romaq

08-22-2007, 08:22 AM

Thank you, NexusDog. In short, proceedural generation is simply using some 'proceedure' to generate content. It's a great idea, except you are trading an artist deliberately placing things for having a computer figure out where to place things. Proceedural generation is a great tool, but like all tools it should not be misused for things it is not meant to replace.

World Machine is simply a very useful example of both the strengths and limitations of proceedural generation. And it may be quite useful for generating 'fantasy maps' for SC4, and possibly SC:S. Tilted Mill could do worse than have a product tie-in with World Machine for those who want a robust terrain generator for SC:S.

--Romaq

deathtopumpkins

08-22-2007, 08:46 AM

Thank you, Romaq. I know what you're talking about now. I had just never heard of it being "Procedural Generation." Why there is a fancy name for everything, I don't know. :confused:

And yes, that would be cool to use. In more recent times, I have not wanted the files for SC4 to be humongous, so I decided to stop making new regions and play the pre-made ones. It was more fun in that it was more of a challenge because I hadn't terraformed already knowing what my intentions were for that city. And then not every one of my cities would not have water in it (I liked water).

nexusdog

08-22-2007, 01:39 PM

Thank you, NexusDog.

My pleasure :)

EDIT ...It's a great idea, except you are trading an artist deliberately placing things for having a computer figure out where to place things. Proceedural generation is a great tool, but like all tools it should not be misused for things it is not meant to replace.

Actually, I was thinking of how Spore handles creature generation and apply that approach to building/mod/prop etc, creation. Not only does it get over a lot of the ownership issues, it makes content immediately available, from a pool and at the discretion of the player, but it also allows a lot more free form creation - the spore vids show building creation to good effect here.

World Machine is simply a very useful example of both the strengths and limitations of proceedural generation. And it may be quite useful for generating 'fantasy maps' for SC4, and possibly SC:S. Tilted Mill could do worse than have a product tie-in with World Machine for those who want a robust terrain generator for SC:S.

Certainly would, there were some absolute stunners in that gallery. However I think we're coming from this from different perspectives - yours is world building/terraforming, mine is content, buildings and so forth.

But thank you for the WM link, some potential rasterbator pics in there, I reckon.

Romaq

08-22-2007, 06:26 PM

The other point I had with World Machine is the issue of how EXPENSIVE (CPU Intensive) proceedural generation is.

You may set up an infinite world within World Machine, and then 'tour' the world in realtime. You may either use the 'airplane' view or 'dune buggy' view and drive throughout this proceedurally generated world.

What you encounter is, if you use simple formulas it starts looking rather bland and all alike, rather quickly. Render time also isn't very fast. As you add more complexity to the proceedure, you remove 'some' of the blandness, but the render time skyrockets. This is particuarly true of erosion effects.

Proceedural generation is quite useful, but it trades the expense of an artist for the expense of a CPU. It could be useful for generating buildings to be plopped, but the initial set of decisions still needs to be done by an artist, and once you have that initial investment why pull the artist out of building design? As far as using the computer to place the buildings... well, that's not where SC:S is heading. :)

--Romaq

deathtopumpkins

08-22-2007, 06:34 PM

It may be CPU-intensive, but if it generated random buildings I wouldn't care. I hate alll the buildings looking alike.

Romaq

08-22-2007, 07:09 PM

While 'pseudo-random' numbers are generated through a mathematical proceedure, randomly changing color and minor props to a building would *not* be considered 'proceedural generation', as such. Besides, modern CPUs can simply be asked for a random number, and the generation of those are extreemly cheap.

I would hope TM allows for smaller sized buildings to have trim, base color and other 'minor' building elements be set at random. Thus, you avoid plopping groups of the same sort of building, and where it can't be helped the computer makes them look different in minor ways. BEHOLD! The buildings kinda sorta don't look somewhat pretty much all alike, in a random sorta way. No 'proceedural generation' as such would be involved in that.

--Romaq

deathtopumpkins

08-22-2007, 07:49 PM

Romaq

08-22-2007, 08:00 PM

Aye. Anyway, where proceedural generation would really be a good start is with creating terrain for a very large area, one that would facilitate trade between cities. Initially I set out to try to duplicate the area I live in to include Mt. Baker and Bellingaham Bay, but I felt it was too complicated. I then bought a license to World Machine, and in the process I decided to try again with 'real' terrain. I finally worked out that process.

Trade between 'some' cities will require landmass area, but we know nothing of landmass limitations yet. We have been told that tools for creating landmass (an in-game version of products like World Machine) will not be available, just as SC4 did not include anything. I don't think TM would do well to duplicate efforts well served by terrain generators available (free and otherwise). And there is quite the wealth of digital elevation map (DEM) data of real life places.

And, quite frankly, taking data of real existing places is much, much better than proceedural generation in the area of detail and the subjective sense of 'looking like the real thing'. Especially because it *is* the real thing. Regardless of what method, trade between cities will benefit from having a good expanse of realistic looking terrain. Terrain features, in fact, drive much of the isolation between cities and channels the trade between them.

--Romaq

deathtopumpkins

08-22-2007, 08:29 PM

Yes
Yes
and Yes

And the only forms of transportation in SCS is roads (with buses), and rail. I wonder how it will work?

And speaking of terrain features (very last sentence) I hated in SC4 not being able to build a bridge to another city. In real life, that is almost always the case. Kind of off topic, but oh well.

nexusdog

08-23-2007, 07:40 AM

It's always a problem of costs vs. benefits. The more detail you have in a city, particularly wth individual people, the slower the sim is going to run. To keep that detail managable, you cut down on the total number of people. You have smaller cities at run-time, you loose a 'regional' approach to city-building. If you want to keep more of a regional approach, you have to introduce 'smoke and mirrors' to 'fake' simulation you do not wish to run directly. 'Smoke & mirrors' to fake simulation isn't as good as *really* running the simulation.

I'm curious about this. How do games, especially the large scale battle rts genre, cope with all those soldiers, generating them, giving them ai and so forth, compared to the likes of city building sims? It's a lot of juggling going on, pathfinding, etc, so what's the secret to that genre doing it - besides the requirement of oodles of processing & gpu power, naturally?

nexusdog

08-23-2007, 07:52 AM

EDIT...

You may set up an infinite world within World Machine, and then 'tour' the world in realtime. You may either use the 'airplane' view or 'dune buggy' view and drive throughout this proceedurally generated world.

What you encounter is, if you use simple formulas it starts looking rather bland and all alike, rather quickly. As you add more complexity to the proceedure, you remove the blandness, but render time skyrockets.

For a whole world to be generated, as described, and to tour only a tiny fraction in dune/plane mod, it's overkill. Beautiful overkill, but overkill nonetheless.

If we were to take the 16, 8 & 4km tiles (correct me if I'm wrong) from SC4, for example, surely the processing requirements would scale down equally?

We're talking about terraforming an area which is a caracature of the real world, so we populate it with every interesting and beautiful feature into a small space, so it's immediately available and accessible, so creating a whole world isn't warranted as we'd never see it or want to see it, in all probability - unless of course, there was a reason to in a gaming capacity.

As a server side world in an online game, it would be in context and balanced, depending on how well gamers could 'see' that world in it's full glory, otherwise, it's wasted.

So can you set the world size in WM - presumably you can, and that way you'd get a far better feel of what is possible within our frame of reference - using the examples of the SC4 city tile sizes.

Proceedural generation is quite useful, but it trades the expense of an artist for the expense of a CPU. It could be useful for generating buildings to be plopped, but the initial set of decisions still needs to be done by an artist, and once you have that initial investment why pull the artist out of building design? As far as using the computer to place the buildings... well, that's not where SC:S is heading. :)

Not sure I agree on this, perhaps I'm misunderstanding you - could you elaborate?

I see it as a tool; it doesn't know what beauty or art is, it merely translates what the user wants to do.

Romaq

08-23-2007, 09:02 AM

@deathtopumpkins: How would 'intra-city' transit of sims and assets work? That's the big question at the moment. It isn't clear if it works at all, much to my regret and dismay.

@nexusdog: How do they do large scale armies? http://www.lalena.com/AI/Flock/Flock.aspx is an interesting example of flocking behavior. This is a program you can 'run' within a web page, nothing to download. I don't think this is useful with SC:S, but it does show to get computer models to behave as if they were real creatures. This isn't proceedural generation, by the way. Flocking behavior is different. At least, that's what I understood you were asking about concerning getting armies to 'behave' a certain way.

Concerning World Machine's 'world tour', it's not actually a closed globe like a planet. It's an infinite plane that goes on without boundary, or at least until it hits a 'wrap' point, the point at which the numbers exactly and precisely repeat in sequence.

My point in the exercise with World Machine was simply for someone to download the 'free' version and take a look around at what sort of world they could create using proceedural generation. The free version can generate maps 512 by 512 pixels (or 513 x 513 vertexes, which is correct for SC4 use). Lesse, 512 / 64 = 8 small cities by 8 small cities. So you may use World Machine to generate a fantasy map no larger than 8 x 8 small cities worth, unless you 'stitch' multiple maps together to make a larger one, and you can do that too. But I digress on that point, and I'd have to discuss privately how to use World Machine for SC4, or cover it in a tutorial on my website www.mik-maq.com (http://www.mik-maq.com).

Anyway, my goal was to show that proceedural generation is limited in the fact that the apperance of your terrain, and making it look the way you want strongly depends upon your ability to manipulate the math. It will have more variety as you make the math more complicated, but that very complication adds more CPU 'expense' to the rendering. You can make very, very realistic proceedurally generated terrain, but you have to 1) have a good practical grasp of how to manipulate the math to make it that way and 2) have an idea of at what point you are STILL going to have areas look too much like 'not the real thing': like a computer did it. Tradeoffs are involved. My 'Whatcom County' region isn't proceedurally generated. It looks much more natural like a real place. Of course, that's because it *is* terrain of a real place accurately scaled. From my point of view, it's easier for me to pick a real place that looks like the terrain I want and import than what it is to diddle the math until I get some place that looks 'real'. All I need to do is flip my Whatcom County map 90 degrees or 180, and I have some magical faraway place that has islands, lakes and even a huge volcano. How cool is that?

Reading through your message... World Machine as I mentioned earlier does *not* create 'closed spheres', though I believe there is one that does that quite well. It simply isn't good with detail. World Machine creates flat planes that extend forever, or at least as far as you care to look. World Machine has a 'preview' mode simply to allow you to set the math of what type of terrain you want, and then you may scroll the 'preview' until you find terrain that looks just exactly the way you wish. So if what you see doesn't quite match what you want, but it's close, you could 'dunebuggy' around and keep looking for a better match without having to jiggle the math. You may find more of what you are looking for. From that 'infinite plane', you select a fixed area. For the free version, that area is no larger than 512 pixels by 512 pixels, or the same as 8 x 8 small cities in SC4.

There *is* a 'scale setting', so you can change the scale. But to say more, it's better we either carry it a separate thread (if others are interested to follow) or just go private, or we can sketch up a tutorial on using World Machine for SC4 on my website.

Regarding trading the expense of an artist for the expense of a tool. Regardless of a tool not knowing what beauty or art is, at some point you have to market a product you expect people to want. And your market is what determines 'beauty' and 'art' is, at least what beauty and art they are willing to pay for to enjoy.

It's going to be much cheaper for TM to hire an artist to create buildings, and have a programmer make those buildings 'slightly randomize' things like base color, trim and surrounding props, than to have 'buildings themselves' proceedurally generated. The mathematics for architecture are quite complex and still requires an artist. The human element of architecture is still quite astounding, and we humans come up with building ideas like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzQazjw-4jI. Since ideas like that are entirely human aspirations, you can't make ideas like that 'math' and expect a computer to cook something like that up.

Therefore, I don't expect SC:S to use 'proceedural generation' to make up new individual buildings, at least not very easily. And since zoning is out, zoning as a proceedural generation element will not be in SC:S.

--Romaq

nexusdog

08-23-2007, 11:25 AM

It may be CPU-intensive, but if it generated random buildings I wouldn't care. I hate alll the buildings looking alike.

Have you seen the spore vids on youtube/google video, as they show creature, vehicles and buildings are all handled the same way, which in a nutshell is what I'd like to see in the future of modding and ingame customisation. Plus the fact that those creations are teeny lickle files, that is a bonus.

Spore may fail to live up to expectations, but it's set a new benchmark on how to develop content and distribute it. Whether the industry catches on remains to be seen, but it's clearly the next step in games developing - utterly subjective, I know, but that's my view.

nexusdog

08-23-2007, 11:31 AM

EDIT... And, quite frankly, taking data of real existing places is much, much better than proceedural generation in the area of detail and the subjective sense of 'looking like the real thing'. Especially because it *is* the real thing.
I'd personally prefer to see it as optional to terraforming, for those who enjoy creating worlds themselves. Everything should be optional at start up, in preferences, akin to windows elements or NAM settings.

Regardless of what method, trade between cities will benefit from having a good expanse of realistic looking terrain. Terrain features, in fact, drive much of the isolation between cities and channels the trade between them.

... don't forget the geological implications, i.e. natural resources, eh? ;)

nexusdog

08-23-2007, 12:42 PM

http://www.lalena.com/AI/Flock/Flock.aspx is an interesting example of flocking behavior...I don't think this is useful with SC:S, but it does show to get computer models to behave as if they were real creatures. This isn't proceedural generation, by the way. Flocking behavior is different. At least, that's what I understood you were asking about concerning getting armies to 'behave' a certain way.

Yeah, emergent behaviour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flocking_%28behavior%29) (see the link within the article for actual emergent behaviour) is the terminology I knew it as, yonks ago. Or click here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence)

Actually, I suppose it's more to do with AI, but this is out of my league now - I'm grasping at terminology not knowing if it's right or not.

There's two things here;

1. how does the game manage large amounts of figures, give them AI, pathfinding, and all at once.

2. what are the rules, or flavours, that govern each individual soldier into action?

I think we need some kind of comparison or example... but really, we need to start another thread, this is getting too far from the original subject.

FInally, I want to apologise to evilchatbot for ending up hijacking your thread - not intentional, and I imagine it's quite irritating to have people waffle on about subjects on completely different tangents from the original comments. Sorry, mate.

Romaq

08-23-2007, 06:44 PM

My apologies as well. I started a new thread to that end.

--Romaq

tomnobles

08-24-2007, 07:33 PM

The following sentances are my GUESSES and are based on my opinions on SC4 and SC:S

So SC4 is Sim City 4, what is SC:S?

John-SJ

08-24-2007, 07:42 PM

SC:S = SimCity:Societies. Check out links in various threads in this forum for details. Also, see the official site at http://simcity.ea.com/

edit: Manners John, where are your manners?

Welcome Tomnobles to the Tilted Mill family! I hope you enjoy your time here and find what you are looking for. But most of all, I hope you always feel welcome here! :)

Azeem

08-24-2007, 07:48 PM

SCS will be a different type of city-builder. It brings back the old building blocks "play" aspect that the original SimCity introduced, but it fundamentally is more a spin-off game, being extremely different from any of the SC series. :)

MarkDuffy

08-24-2007, 10:52 PM

Azeem

08-24-2007, 11:29 PM

It might just be that SCS becomes "SimCity" to any complete newcomer to the series. It's often whatever game one goes to first in a series that becomes the epitome of the series in one's view. ;)

Speaking of sims, in some games, developers include caricatures of themselves. I wonder if TM has considered putting caricatures of the TM team in the game? :D

Sim Nation

08-25-2007, 12:49 AM

MarkDuffy It's funny, Azeem. The SC4 fans claim that SCS should not be called SimCity.

I claim that SimCity 4 should not be called SimCity. It should be called City 4

TM put the Sims into SimCity. SCS is the first TRUE SimCity.

------------

This is the kind of comment i would expect from some one that has never played SC4 ,hmm wait a mo , Mr Duffy has never played SC4 , so i understand your intolerance of the sc4 fans , although it is down to your lack of experience, and feel you un qualified to have any kind of opinion on sc4 at all , to be honest.

King Faticus said in june that all EA games suck , why should SCS be any differant ?.

Less than 12 weeks now until release , im realy looking forwards to seeing what TM have done with sim city , and you can be sure to see my opinions , whether they are welcome or not ,late Nov 07 .

In the mean time heres a link to sierra s , World in conflict demo, if your fast you can get a beta key to play online .
________
Volcano Solid Valve Vs Easy Valve (http://vaporizers.net)

nexusdog

08-25-2007, 04:56 AM

Speaking of sims, in some games, developers include caricatures of themselves. I wonder if TM has considered putting caricatures of the TM team in the game? :D

Matt Zimmitti
Dennis Rose
Louis Tammaro
Keith Zizza
Nick Atlas

look suspiciously like the bearded fellow in one of the screenshots, methinks... could have been a false beard though.

(@MD Oh, and I bough C4 as well as CotN now...)

tomnobles

08-25-2007, 05:30 AM

Thanks John-SJ. SCS ok, I've been there.

King Faticus

08-25-2007, 05:36 AM

King Faticus said in june that all EA games suck
I said that true, but if it is the thread I'm thinking about then it was me poking fun at another forum regular who liked-s EA and I wasn't 'seriously' criticizing EA
we poke fun at each other a lot on these forums;)
besides SSX is anything but 'sucky' lol

not that I remember ANYthing from over a week ago clearly:o

Sim Nation

08-25-2007, 08:29 AM

Dont worry King faticus, i forget , then lie about it all the time ;) , sometimes i can even convince myself,its one of the qualities of man , women have perfected the art better than the men .

Anyway i agree with your comment:D , many of the new ea games have become very commercialised and do suck, compared to earlier versions.

A new Name for SCS could be Sim and Max 5 :p

Spin off, rip off ,real thing whatever SCS turns out to be , i think more complex trade in Sim City would be a welcome addition .
________
****TUBE GAY (http://www.****tube.com/video/11490/hardcore-hot-gay-men-****ing)

MarkDuffy

08-25-2007, 09:29 AM

Sim Nation, what's with the threatening & hostile attachment in your post?

Please remove it. Thankx

Sim Nation

08-25-2007, 10:03 AM

Oh man you guys realy are noobs in the gaming world , World in Conflict is a FPS , first person shooter , hence the avatar that i use in my gaming clans forums , a clan where i ranks in many ladders,in many types of online games , have you ever played a fps Mark , or been involved in an online gaming clan , i mix with guys from all around the world on Teamspeak , and have many great friends from Australia to Canada , Germany to korea , if i had realised you guys were so boring ,i would not of bothered to even post the link to the demo in the first place . this is just another game im going to be great at . Not only am i Mayor of the largest SC4 you ever seen ,im also a crack real time marksman, deadly assault troop, ace fighter pilot , Master in the art of Blitz krieg , unbeatable in CnC3 with nod , No2 CoH relic ladder , Naval Admiral , special Agent , mafia hitman , street racer , track racer , pro golf player, major league ball player,premier league football player, and virtualy unbeatable at chess . Ive murdered thousands already today, and you want me to feel guilty over a avatar ,pfff , , i love it and i love the games and i love my avatar also , you stick to your cb only sandbox stlye games , you prolly couldnt run with me in these games anyway , even if you spent the rest of your life trying .
________
Ford gyron specifications (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Gyron)

MarkDuffy

08-25-2007, 10:12 AM

Yes, Sim Nation, World in Conflict is an excellent game. However, your attachment had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Thank you for removing it

nexusdog

08-25-2007, 04:45 PM

It's funny, Azeem. The SC4 fans claim that SCS should not be called SimCity.

I claim that SimCity 4 should not be called SimCity. It should be called City 4

TM put the Sims into SimCity. SCS is the first TRUE SimCity. :D
Reminds me of the saying about who put the, ahem, in S****horpe.

Let's not go there, however.

And true to form, the naughty word monitor, picks up a UK place name as very naughty indeed.

Fair play.

Azeem

08-25-2007, 06:45 PM

Sorry to disappoint Sim Nation, but some of us are just too preoccupied with real-life issues to play games all day. ;)

I used to play FPS myself. Just eventually "grew" out of it since it was all much too boring for my taste.

Azeem

08-26-2007, 07:50 AM

I happen to like dealing with my real life job. Games are just beer and pretzels. :)

John-SJ

08-26-2007, 11:24 AM

Azeem,
Yeah, I like my job too. Fortunately, I am a software engineer, not a manager, which I know from experience, I don't like. But between work and family (okay, spending time with my wife) I only have a few hours per week to spend on gaming so perhaps for me it is more like fruit and nuts. (I prefer healthier foods anyway :) )

nexusdog

08-26-2007, 01:40 PM

I happen to like dealing with my real life job. Games are just beer and pretzels. :)

Wish I could share your optimism on the work front - I get quite a buzz from discussing game mechanics & development.

But, hey, you never know what life will bring, eh? ;)

Romaq

08-26-2007, 05:31 PM

I admit I get quite a buzz from discussing game mechanics and development as well. I read through Game Developer Magazine, after all. I just consider my lot in life most fortunate that *I* am not in the hot seat like David is, having to make these calls. Or like Tim "Draconi" Cotten, UO Designer for EA Mythic that I helped roast over slow burning coals (politely, and all in good fun) last night at a UO Town Hall in Seattle. He was going to show us something in the new UO:Kingdom Reborn client, and muttered in everyone's hearing, "Now let's see if I can get this to work." To which I responded in everyone's hearing, "I say that every time I go into the KR Client!" To which ensued a good deal of laughter in the audience. But it was all good natured, and they (Draconi and Jeremy Dalberg) took the ribbing as good sports.

While I have an interest in the field, I'm interested as a spectator and occasional player. But not as the one calling the shots. Oy!

--Romaq

deathtopumpkins

08-26-2007, 05:43 PM

That's an interesting point, nexusdog. I never thought about that.
I don't know. Anyone?

deathtopumpkins

08-26-2007, 05:46 PM

Have you seen the spore vids on youtube/google video, as they show creature, vehicles and buildings are all handled the same way, which in a nutshell is what I'd like to see in the future of modding and ingame customisation. Plus the fact that those creations are teeny lickle files, that is a bonus.

Spore may fail to live up to expectations, but it's set a new benchmark on how to develop content and distribute it. Whether the industry catches on remains to be seen, but it's clearly the next step in games developing - utterly subjective, I know, but that's my view.
I've seen videos a long time ago, but none recently.

It is a very innovative game, isn't it.
Do you really think it fails to live up to expectations?

deathtopumpkins

08-26-2007, 05:51 PM

FInally, I want to apologise to evilchatbot for ending up hijacking your thread - not intentional, and I imagine it's quite irritating to have people waffle on about subjects on completely different tangents from the original comments. Sorry, mate.

I apologize too, but I don't think it is a bad thing to end up talking about completely irrevalent things if you can get to those things from the origional topic.

nexusdog

08-28-2007, 03:06 PM

I've seen videos a long time ago, but none recently.

It is a very innovative game, isn't it.
Do you really think it fails to live up to expectations?

I enjoyed the vids, the background, WW's philosophy on gaming et al and generally emparting an enthusiasm on practically every subject he researches which is infectious.

The idea for Spore is fascinating, but ultimately, the individual elements which comprise each segment of game seem... weak. There just doesn't seem to be that much to do, extrapolating on what information and vids are available. Sure, it's going to be interesting and fun in the creature/building/vehicle creation parts of the game, but whats holding it together so far, just doesn't seem like it will be enough. The pull isn't there, basically.

elebit

08-28-2007, 03:11 PM

nexusdog

08-28-2007, 05:25 PM

I can't wait for spore. It had better be the best game ever or EA is gonna get it! They have delayed it so frickin long I know it is totally completed but they are sadists and they love to torture us!
That's just it - what would make it 'the best game ever'? It's the details which count and it won't be EA's fault, nor Maxis or even Will Wrights, it's a question of setting up a set of interesting concepts into a coherent game.

The delay, I suspect, is down to that very fact - cohesion and depth of gameplay between each game segment. So far, the best description is that Spore takes various different gameplay styles and amalgamates them into one package - which is fine, as long as it's worth playing. I don't personally want to jump through hoops which are predetermined in a specific order (reminds me of the pixel perfect jumping from Jet Set Willy...). I just don't want that - I personally want open ended, variable ways of completing a given task.

For an alternative, check out Flow (http://intihuatani.usc.edu/cloud/flowing/) for something akin of what spore could accomplish on a minimalist level (I think it's beautiful, no kidding) instead of the cartoonishness it currently has.

I desperately like it, want it to succeed, but really, so far it's failing to live up to expectations in the early stages of the game.

But hey, I'm just a punter - what do I know?

elebit

08-28-2007, 05:52 PM

I just think spore is so different and looks awesome! I just hope this delay is worth it. I hope the rumors are false about it being completely done and it will improve more than it allready has. I Want that game to do good too.

I have been waiting sooooo loooong for it and I hope that it is very addictive and I can play it for months on end without getting bored, that would make it 'the best game ever' becuase I rarely get into games for longer then 1 month at a time. Like ZeldaTP I played it for 2 months on and off approx 4-6 hours a day for 2 months on days where I didn't play another game on the PC and watch anime. It was addictive as hell becuase it was so good.

I hope SCS lives up to this as well and keeps me satisfied till spore comes out.
I wish the time would fly by quicker I have lots of games I want

PC:SCS/Spore
WII: Dewy's adventure/Super mario galaxy/Sonic riders ZG/de Blob

All these good games coming out at That I want isn't good for my budget but oh well you gotta have fun! Most good games in the shortest amount of time i have seen yet!

deathtopumpkins

08-28-2007, 07:02 PM

elebit: SCS and spore aren't coming out at the same time. SCS is slated for release in November. Spore- 2009

nexusdog: I think spore may be a little too far "out there" for some people, but I still think it will be a very enjoyable game and I look forward to it.

elebit

08-28-2007, 07:14 PM

I just listed the games I want that are upcoming I will change that.

That's why I said "keep me satisfied till spore comes out"

:p

Azeem

08-28-2007, 07:18 PM

I think spore may be a little too far "out there" for some people, but I still think it will be a very enjoyable game and I look forward to it.

If spore allows me to create a race of evil mutant penguins, then I'd be satisfied. :D

elebit

08-28-2007, 07:27 PM

Oh I'm gonna make some really wild creatures I have the idea of making one look scary and some to be cute. I allready have some drawings of some that I had ideas for a few months ago.

deathtopumpkins

08-28-2007, 07:28 PM

I just listed the games I want that are upcoming I will change that.

That's why I said "keep me satisfied till spore comes out"

:p
Oh. ok. never mind. i was confuzzled.

deathtopumpkins

08-28-2007, 07:29 PM

hahaha...
evil mutant penguins. that's a good one. I should start a thread with ideas for spore creatures. i think i will.

nexusdog

08-29-2007, 12:24 PM

nexusdog: I think spore may be a little too far "out there" for some people, but I still think it will be a very enjoyable game and I look forward to it.

Hmm, I don't know.

It's got cutesy graphics, which doesn't appeal to me personally, but others may enjoy (increases the goofiness factor tenfold, however).

There's also the issue of how the games hold up individually. It only begins to look interesting when you reach the civilisation mode and space exploration becomes available.

I'm more interested in creature creation, just like everyone else, I suspect - I have my own ideas, but one I want to try is Evil Tentacle, from Day of the Tentacle. Not sure of their chances of survival though... :D

I just like the thought of playing the game and coming across a herd of care bears or something equally recognisable, but incredibly silly, in Spore. That's what is going to be fun and downright hilarious for me. Or, to the other extremes, Facehuggers running around terrorising everything! :eek:

deathtopumpkins

08-29-2007, 03:52 PM

Yeah, I would like to see what kinds of creations i can make, and it does look more interesting when you actually have a civilization.

the 'cutesy' graphics don't appeal to me either.

Alphidius

08-30-2007, 05:23 AM

deathtopumpkins

08-30-2007, 12:37 PM

Yeah, it should definately be a step forward [hint, hint] from SC4.

And it has been a while since any new screenshots, hasnt it?

elebit

08-30-2007, 07:57 PM

I just hope the interface feels and plays like SC4. I also hope it isn't streamlined to the point of pain in the assness. SC4's UI was cool. I hope they have a demo soon so I don't get dissapointed!

deathtopumpkins

08-30-2007, 08:05 PM

I don't like the SCS UI.
some of the screenshots they've released have shown it and it looks cartoony, confusing, and nothing's in the same place as with SC4

I'm hoping for a demo too.

elebit

08-30-2007, 09:56 PM

Yep and it looks too 98-2000ish so far as the look is concerned. I hope they decide to make skins for the UI too that would be neat if I could get it to look like my windowblinds skin. UI is a BIG thing for me becuase some games UI was terrible and it made the gameplay tedious becuase you had to go through 6 menus to launch some units and mange simple resources. I hope to see a better UI example soon to see if I like how it all flows.

deathtopumpkins

08-31-2007, 11:46 AM

King Faticus

08-31-2007, 11:48 AM

I wonder if somebody could create a feature to switch between multiple UIs and skins

deathtopumpkins

08-31-2007, 11:54 AM

I don't know.
I couldn't.
User-created would probably be better than TM-created though.

King Faticus

08-31-2007, 01:38 PM

heh that can be the case with any game :p

deathtopumpkins

08-31-2007, 02:28 PM

yep :)

nexusdog

08-31-2007, 03:15 PM

I do hope that not only should trading be in the game but products that are actually traded and not just water or electricity, etc... I wanna see a metropolis society importing loads of food from an agricultural society and in return, supply entertainment or high-tech goods.

You get my drift...
I eager await Titled Mill to show us their next batch of screenshots! :D

That's definitely the direction I want to see future versions of SC incorporate *and* incorporate that into an online, hopefully, co-op game style of play (sim world, globe, nations & continents, please).

Going back to the Spore & procedurally generated content idea, if future games handled modding the same way as Spore does with creatures, buildings and vehicles, there's no reason why that couldn't be applied to vehicles as well in the next generation of SC games:

Imagine, not only being able to create buildings using the Spore method, but also cars, trucks, planes and watercraft using simple templates that could be tweaked indefinitely, and then, having those be available using the same distributed method Spore uses. :cool:

Just another twist on the trade idea, if you had an autofactory in your city, or docks, or aerospace manufacturers... makes you think, doesn't it?

nexusdog

08-31-2007, 03:20 PM

I just overall don't like it.
I'm used to the buttons to build being on the left, and now they're on the bottom.

Skins would be cool too. That's the power of forums. A bunch of people can all come up with ideas, adn put them together to form GREAT ideas. Some things (like that) some people (like me) wouldn't be able to come up with on their own.

Personally, I'd rather it be functional and idiot proof (for me if no-one else), i.e. logical, and attention was focussed on transit instead. :D

I can learn to use the UI, but I can't live with those bloody straight roads!

I just found the curved roads in the NAM and I nearly wept. Can you believe that? It was such a moving experience.

I can't talk about it right now, I'm overcome, sorry....

elebit

08-31-2007, 06:08 PM

deathtopumpkins

08-31-2007, 07:10 PM

Makes me think a little too much... *brain sizzles**information and idea overload* :confused:

deathtopumpkins

08-31-2007, 07:14 PM

Personally, I'd rather it be functional and idiot proof (for me if no-one else), i.e. logical, and attention was focussed on transit instead. :D

I can learn to use the UI, but I can't live with those bloody straight roads!

I just found the curved roads in the NAM and I nearly wept. Can you believe that? It was such a moving experience.

I can't talk about it right now, I'm overcome, sorry....

I won't have a problem using the UI (I use about a dozen diffrent ones- in a dozen diffrent games)

Idiot proof would be good! :D

*Assumes fetal position murmuring: "Straight roads...straight roads...straight roads..."*

I don't have anything like that. My computer probably couldn't handle it with my 4,000 (approx., but i counted) items of cc [custom content] for TS2.

Romaq

08-31-2007, 07:15 PM

I know what you mean, nexusdog. I've got a long weekend, much to attend to. I've upgraded Dragon to a much better video card, Intel Duo and whatnot. I've a dozen things to accomplish, but I look forward to playing SC4.5 and Caesar IV, if I can cram all the fun in.

But curved roads, I know what you mean. I don't really like the idea of going backwards just for 'true 3d'.

--Romaq

elebit

08-31-2007, 07:15 PM

It would have been an overload if you had the same complexity with zoning and utlities and everything else as SC4 with the societal energy thing of SCS! Woah! That would be wierd and awesome and alot to handle at the same time! Managing alot is fun!

deathtopumpkins

08-31-2007, 07:17 PM

...I've a dozen things to accomplish, but I look forward to playing SC4.5 and Caesar IV, if I can cram all the fun in. ...

SC4.5? I get it- all the mods and custom stuff and whatnot. ;)

deathtopumpkins

08-31-2007, 07:19 PM

I wouldn't have minded it. I loved all the complexities of SC4. That's why SCS will NEVER replace it for me. NEVER! :mad:

Once again, A STEP BACKWARD

And isn't there already a thread about this somewhere?

elebit

08-31-2007, 07:20 PM

All these good games coming out is gonna be fun and challenging... to determine what game to play that day. I guess my "getting tired of one thing easily" Thing will keep it interesting! 5 new games in about 6 months. least I won't get bored... for a while.. then the game drought will kick in again.

I hope for the next SC game they merge SCS with SC4 and keep the best of both worlds!

deathtopumpkins

08-31-2007, 07:35 PM

WOOH-HOO! :D
SC4-SCS merger!
I'm for it!

elebit

08-31-2007, 07:38 PM

Yep it would be awesome! I would totally play it! Imagine the possiblities! Your city would be totally you! It would have alot more replay value!

Romaq

08-31-2007, 07:50 PM

And yes, by SC4.5 I refer to the CAM+NAM from the SC4 Devotion team, plus many other wonderful enhancements and custom content features that put the OH MY GAWD into SC4.

Yes, there was a thread about SC:S taking a step backwards. Some of that step backwards may be tied into the contractual agreement TM has with EA, and as such is not really up for constructive discussion. Though, I must say, making descrete holes to allow for 'NAM/ CAM-like' custom content allows us NOT under contractual obligation to put those effects INTO SC:S, and I pin one hell of alot of hope on that.

So... SC:S for Christmas 2007 may not be what I'm looking for, but SC:S by Summer 2008 might be. And it's possible I might have a hand in active development of custom content to bring it about, though nothing really 'happens' to that end until SC:S is properly released and documented. Well, and of course, people like me need to run SC:S through a meat grinder, pound the hell out of it, put the game engine through solving a few unsolvable problems and making SC:S cry uncle. NAM 2007 is what, four years after the release of SC4? If what we look for *can* be done, it will take time.

Criticial, however, will be the FIRST SIX MONTHS of SC:S's release. SimCity 6, and what fate awaits it, depends a great deal on that. After that first six months, money EAGames makes off the product will be nice, but it isn't the meat & potatoes that keeps the business end running. The SC:S contract with TiltedMill is geared towards that first six months strategy. After that, well... some depends upon Monte Cristo and Cities Unlimited. Does CU sell better than SC:S? What could SimCity 6 do that attracts the sales without being a simple rehash of SC:S + Cities Unlimited? What will it take to get people who already bought SC:S and/ or CU to buy a 'new city builder like that', but one different enough that people wouldn't just say, "I already have that game, why pay for it again?"

That very question, "I already have SimCity4, why pay for it again just to have the same old thing in 3D?" is already driving much of SC:S's current focus, it appears. It's really hard to have something like StarWars where people will buy the same damned DVD of the same movie year after year 'just because' of name branding. (refer to http://www.pvponline.com/article/1048/Sun-Oct-14). Counting on the 'Star Wars Effect' is a place to start for marketing, but it's a terrible effect to depend upon for sales.

Anyway, I've no time to be bored. I've way too much stuff to do and never ever enough time to do it in.

--Romaq

deathtopumpkins

08-31-2007, 09:18 PM

I want custom content! :( I just have plain old SC4.1 (because I've built so many cities that I've probably squeezed every last little thing out of the game)

I am still going to buy it when it comes out. I want to "run SC:S through a meat grinder, pound the hell out of it, put the game engine through solving a few unsolvable problems and make SC:S cry uncle" as soon as I get it, even though most of my anticipation is just because it's been 4 years since the last simcity (not counting rush hour) and i'm eager for another.

SCS isn't just SC4 in 3D though. SCS has the whole societal aspect of the game, whereas SC4 is more the CITY BUILDER.

And I'm sure we don't mean to bore you. Sorry if we have.

King Faticus

08-31-2007, 09:23 PM

wait.. who said SCS is replacing anything? :confused:

deathtopumpkins

08-31-2007, 09:27 PM

Well, it is THE SEQUEL, and THE SEQUEL usually replaces the origional. It certainly did for me with every game I ever played. ex: SC4 replacing SC3000.

King Faticus

08-31-2007, 09:29 PM

not really... I played c2 when c3 was released and even now after c4 I STILL play c2 (in fact it is the only Caesar still on my PC;))

deathtopumpkins

08-31-2007, 09:32 PM

Well my computer has been through various upgrades and viruses since SC4 being released, adn it is not still installed. In fact, on the computer I'm on right now, SC4 isn't even installed. We recently got two viruses in a row and I brought the SC4RH disc to install it, but I forgot the SC discs. Idiot me! :eek: Sure, I still occasionally play old versions of games, but that's usually because the newer ones have problems or I liked the gameplay better for the old one.

King Faticus

08-31-2007, 09:42 PM

for me it is for nostalgic reasons that I love c2

Romaq

08-31-2007, 09:52 PM

Sorry, you misunderstand the meaning of what I said, "I've no time to be bored."

You are not boring me here, nobody is. What I'm saying is... I've way more to do than could ever possibly be done. I simply do not have time to be bored because of a lack of games.

And yes, SC:S isn't SC4 in 3D. That part is extreemly clear. The part that is as yet unclear is to what extent we can have both the 'eye-candy' and 'functionality' of highways, one-way-roads, railroads, monorails, Freight/ passenger trains, light rail and so on. SC:S, to date, only appears to offer highway-width streets and highway-width dirt roads. Airports, ferries and ports have yet to make an appearance, unless I've missed something. No word yet on how a 'city' is actually defined, as opposed to a region, and what sort of interaction there may be between 'cities' with a 'region' in common. This message thread was to be about 'trade between cities', but the topic carries a great deal of baggage with it, including transit issues.

But I'm not 'bored' by anything in this forum other than the few people incapable of rational discussion. And when I decide a given person must have festering dog snot for brains, I drop the troll into my ignore list. Irritating to me, no less, because I share in some of the complaints of those on my ignore list concerning SC:S. But when the person makes it obvious he can't tell rational discourse from rabid dog drool, I'm done.

--Romaq

King Faticus

08-31-2007, 09:57 PM

heh I'm sure I'm on a NUMBER of peoples ignore lists by now;) :D

Romaq

08-31-2007, 10:03 PM

KF, you're not on my ignore list. As far as I recall, you are a decent person to converse with. I suppose it's possible for a thread to be started to swap and compare 'ignore lists', but I don't see a point in feeding trolls.

--Romaq

King Faticus

08-31-2007, 10:15 PM

actually starting a thread to 'swap' ignore lists would be considered trolling too I think :eek:

Yes I know I'm not on your ignore list I was referring to some of the trolls you mentioned;) I managed to piss a few of them off by 'accident' ... or so I can claim :p

As for this thread the only thing I can say is 'wait and see' also I have to agree with Romaq about being too busy to be bored, it is probably the best way to stay out of trouble or of ignoring 'drama' as well.. :rolleyes: :D

MarkDuffy

08-31-2007, 10:26 PM

King is on my ignore list

OK, only one thread

OK, only kinda...

:D

elebit

08-31-2007, 10:38 PM

Let me brighten up the mood here by the following
http://www.engrish.com/recent_detail.php?imagename=bottled-water.jpg&category=Drinks&date=2007-07-23

MarkDuffy

08-31-2007, 11:19 PM

Terhe is atlsulobey nnhtoig wnrog wtih my Esiglnh. Plopee udnsneatrd me eislay.

elebit

08-31-2007, 11:36 PM

51/\/\ c17y 50c137135 4 7|-|3 \|/1n!!!!!!!

King Faticus

08-31-2007, 11:49 PM

what is sad is I actually understand both of you
Mark .. when I read yours it looked normal to me at first and I had to re-read a few times to get it:o :o
Now elebit's post was harder to read.. I actually had to look closely at it
scs ftw :eek:

Alphidius

09-01-2007, 05:19 AM

That's definitely the direction I want to see future versions of SC incorporate *and* incorporate that into an online, hopefully, co-op game style of play (sim world, globe, nations & continents, please).

Going back to the Spore & procedurally generated content idea, if future games handled modding the same way as Spore does with creatures, buildings and vehicles, there's no reason why that couldn't be applied to vehicles as well in the next generation of SC games:

Imagine, not only being able to create buildings using the Spore method, but also cars, trucks, planes and watercraft using simple templates that could be tweaked indefinitely, and then, having those be available using the same distributed method Spore uses. :cool:

Just another twist on the trade idea, if you had an autofactory in your city, or docks, or aerospace manufacturers... makes you think, doesn't it?

I agree 100% and I'd say Spore will be the first of its kind. If it succeeds, I can see future games using the same kind of programming and taking the same route to allow highly customizable features.

And regarding the autofactory manufacturers idea, that was what I was implying too, high tech goods. I think if Tilted Mill played its cards right, they might just be able to mix what we loved in old Sierra city-building games (trading of goods, import/export, requiring services & goods for housing to evolve! :eek: etc..) and Simcity games (res, com, ind, pop level unlocks new buildings, etc...) to give us a completely sweet product of the most realistic modern city building simulation game!

nexusdog

09-01-2007, 06:48 AM

I hope they have better roads! Boring square grid cities are boring. I hope there are also alot of types of roads because I don't want it to end up like Raleigh,NC where all there is is tiny roads with too much traffic and looks funny. Raleigh is a good example of what a city shouldn't be. It was hectic and not worth the high rent. I might make a city like that though and make it boring and see what happens. I have a pretty good idea what I want to do in this game and I hope that this game will carry the SimCity name with honor!

You should see Bristol, UK, (my home town) at rush hour.... Trust me, it's hell navigating through traffic in the centre of town. But it has it's own character and that includes lousy roads which are too narrow and ill concieved. And of course, it's built up and developed on over it's lifetime, so we have historically narrow streets from 100 years ago, say, while we get dual carriage ways and everything inbetween. You just gotta live with it, unfortunately.

nexusdog

09-01-2007, 07:02 AM

deathtopumpkins

09-01-2007, 11:51 AM

The page cannot be found.
And what is it?

Rnett

09-01-2007, 12:00 PM

http://www.eset.com/

deathtopumpkins

09-01-2007, 12:08 PM

I can't do anything about it, although we do have a bunch of antivirus and spyware and stuff. This is my dad's computer, I'm staying with him for a little while. :(

deathtopumpkins

09-01-2007, 12:10 PM

This is now the SCS thread with the most replies!

Sorry, just had to inform everybody of that.

nexusdog

09-01-2007, 02:17 PM

I can't do anything about it, although we do have a bunch of antivirus and spyware and stuff. This is my dad's computer, I'm staying with him for a little while. :(

Tell dad to ditch Norton and all the security stuff that came with the PC and get NOD32 instead, then consider something like Zone Alarm, Ad-Adware and AVG. With the exception of NOD32, those others are all free, or you can buy funkier versions with added chutzpah :D

Oh and don't forget the likes of online virus scanners such as housecall (http://housecall.trendmicro.com/) or panda (http://www.pandasecurity.com/homeusers/solutions/activescan/)

deathtopumpkins

09-01-2007, 02:43 PM

Nah, I'll wait until I get MY new one. Hopefully sometime in the next year.
I'm not gonna do that to my dad. I trust him when it comes to computers, he's a computer technician

elebit

09-01-2007, 04:05 PM

What TMill really really really needs to do is make a game that is has the procedrual dynamics as spore, the complexity and city works of SC4 and the societal aspect of SCS and flow like spore. Spore isn;t as real looking as I hope it would be but that makes it more fun. mka the cities as well as the people advence and make it also have a little bit of the Civ4 elements to it! Wow I am full of ideas today! I guess cleaning house really helps clear your mind!

arcan

09-01-2007, 07:12 PM

I guess cleaning house really helps clear your mind!
If you want to come to my appartment, you'll be able to clear your mind very well. It will be so clear it will be translucent ! :rolleyes:
(I'll have to do that tomorrow before the parents arrive... all help appreciated) :D

Romaq

09-01-2007, 07:49 PM

Proceedural dynamics is a very nice, fancy tool for content generation, but I'm not clear on how it will really help SC:S beyond terrain generation. Terrain generation, by the way, is explicitly *NOT* going to be a part of SC:S. That is, it will not be a part of SC:S unless I can talk TM/ EA into bundling the 'free' copy of World-Machine with SC:S and have some direct link-age between what World-Machine will output and SC:S will input.

--Romaq

elebit

09-01-2007, 11:02 PM

Arcan .....Uhh.. no thanks..... LOL! :P

Yah the not haveing the complete terraforming part is the one thing that does bother me though. I want to be able to make crazy landscapes and have a dangerous mountain city (like in china and some parts of south america and have death roads and rough backdrop and alot of issues) and then have a desert town. If they had really dynamic and fun landscapes it would be awesome. I am tired of the boring old rolling hills or plains.

Romaq

09-01-2007, 11:32 PM

Well, the problem with having SC:S generate terrain is that either they put a great deal of effort (and budget) into making it really good, or they invite people to make their own using available tools like World Machine and others, and simply not worry about proceedural generation. www.world-machine.com (http://www.world-machine.com) turns out a pretty good product for that purpose, and if you've not looked into it you might give it a try. There's a free version you may play with.

Better than World Machine is another terrain generator I like to call "Planet Earth". Yup, it's the real thing. Terrain generated by Planet Earth looks just like the real thing. Of course, that has something to do with it BEING the 'real thing'. I was able to get data from data.geocomm.com, but tonight the site appears to be down. I'm confident there are other sites that may provide the same data for a fee, though GeoComm provided some free of charge.

You download data at 10 meters per pixel, then go through awkwardly painful trouble to convert it into a format SC4Mapper can read, convert it to an SC4 region, and you would have accurately scaled terrain. The Whatcom County region on SimTropolis is one I made by this route. If you want a VERY large, realistic looking area, you might find it most simple to find that terrain using GoogleEarth or other such product, then importing the real life place that most closely matches the terrain you are looking for, then building it to a 'fantasy' setting, if that's what suits you.

I'm pushing real hard for TM to bundle World Machine's free version with SC:S, or at least make it VERY painless to import World Machine save files. I'm also pestering TM about being able to easily use a 'standard' DEM data format, such as found on geocomm.com. Between those two options, I simply do not see any benefit to having SC:S try to take on the role of World Machine and/ or MicroDEM. Those two programs do what they do very well, for freely available software anyway. SC:S should be made to function very well as SC:S. But bundling, or at the very least making import of 16-bit format elevation data SIMPLE would help a great deal. With SC4, 16-bit format data is very NOT simple to import.

--Romaq

elebit

09-01-2007, 11:37 PM

Wow. Looks like you've got some good ideas! Keep pestering TM some more I hope they listen! ;)

Romaq

09-01-2007, 11:40 PM

On some things they appear to, or at least had it in the pipeline to alter before anyone had a chance to suggest it. Changes were made to the turns from a sharp elbow to a more curvy elbow. It seems they are also listening to the custom content community based upon their prior work with Caesar IV and from having Dirk of Simtropolis to visit.

--Romaq

elebit

09-01-2007, 11:44 PM

Awesome. Tha's why I hope this site gets more people on it to suggest ideas and I hope TM remains open. Can't wait till Nov 13th then! Seems like a long ways away.....

Romaq

09-01-2007, 11:56 PM

It's not so very long a ways if you are on a software production team. I was on such a team for an Open Source project once, and I also read Game Developer Magazine (http://www.gdmag.com/homepage.htm) which you may be interested in. They have an article in there every month called a 'post mortem'. This would be as if one of the project leads or producers within TM were to write down three things that went well in producing SC:S, and three things that went wrong with SC:S. Invariably, there never seems to be enough time in the game development cycle.

It's only long because we are on the waiting end. But very soon they have to ship code to EA for 'final approval,' EA has to burn the CDs and box them, and then have it ship. That takes a great deal of time to wrap up all the loose ends. Really what that means is, I don't think TM's in a position at this point to change much of anything unless EA decides it *has* to be altered. Of course, there's still some final touches and whatnot that they are doing, but the very core of the game can't be touched since three to six months ago.

--Romaq

elebit

09-02-2007, 12:09 AM

Yeah I read a beta tester's bad time and he quit and he got really tired and played a game non stop for like 16 hours a day! I would hate to be a beta tester in a forced environment. If I had to test a game that often and if it was a bad experience I would never even look at the game again. Also a month is s short amount of time in the programming sense but the beta tester sense it is very long time.

Romaq

09-02-2007, 01:16 AM

Never enough time. Never ever enough time. --Romaq

elebit

09-02-2007, 01:23 AM

I hope september goes by fast with little bad stuff going on. I hate that month. Alot of things rumored to happen that don't look good with the stock market and alot of other crises. I hope that it doesn't happen. I hope this game will bring new light into november. I normally like november becuase of thanksgiving dinner and have a good time. To play this on thanksgiving is awesome. Good food and good games. Good mix.

Romaq

09-02-2007, 01:37 AM

Don't worry about the stock market. Worry about the particular company you work for, and how they are doing. The thing about the economy is, when the economy is doing well, the rich get richer. When the economy does poorly, the rich get richer faster.

Ideally, you want to figure out how they do that and do it as well.

I don't worry about what month it is beyond keeping appointments. The months all start to blur after a while.

--Romaq

elebit

09-02-2007, 01:42 AM

Seems like a blur to me too. But the thing is the economy is doing crap right now and there is gonna be more bad stuff happening and even the middle class is struggling. It sucks. And this upcoming stuff with iran is bad too. I don't work a normal job I do graphic design and retouching and some IT work on and off. I have used photoshop so much I am looking for tools to airbrush myself in the morning and I could have sworn I lost my healing brush! I was looking for that tool the other day and I was all wierd like that. I photoshop for more then 6 hours a day straight sometimes.

Romaq

09-02-2007, 01:57 AM

The economy does whatever it does. I'm determined to find better employment than what I currently have.

--Romaq

elebit

09-02-2007, 01:59 AM

And what might that be?

Romaq

09-02-2007, 02:14 AM

Computer Admin. --Romaq

deathtopumpkins

09-02-2007, 08:48 AM

Don't you guys sleep?
I'm usually asleep by 3 in the morning.

Romaq

09-02-2007, 09:16 AM

I work nights. It's getting close to my bed time.

--Romaq

deathtopumpkins

09-02-2007, 02:22 PM

nighty night.

elebit

09-02-2007, 04:57 PM

I am a C or D person I can't stand being awake between the hours of 4am and 11am. I feel sick if I have to wake up early. The only times I wake up early are for special things and I actually look forward to it when I know I will get something cool like a game or cool stuff or go on a long wild road trip to an awesome destination. But hell no on a normal day. Ugh!

I was at the wii preorder at 3AM and it was freezing cold like a mofo! Store didn't open till 9am. But it was worth it in the end! I even worke up at 7:30am to pick the wii up so I wouldn't have to deal with traffic and so I can play at as early as possible!

Romaq

09-02-2007, 07:13 PM

Life's too short to stand in line six hours for a game box. I prefer having those hours billable.

--Romaq

deathtopumpkins

09-02-2007, 08:00 PM

I wish I had a Wii.
But I don't think it's worth standing in line that long for either.

I'm a high school student, so I'm used to getting up at 5/6AM. It was HELL getting up for orientation at 6 after sleeping til noon all summer.

Romaq

09-02-2007, 08:53 PM

Time = Money. A friend of mine quit high school because it got in the way of making money as a store manager. He quit college, it got in the way of making money as a software consultant. It's pretty cool for him to be a high school dropout earning around $300/ hr legally. I wish I'd thought of that.

But yes, he's the one who wouldn't stand in line for six hours as it would cost him around $1800 to do it. He won't throw away $1800 of money making opportunity to stand in line for a game.

--Romaq

deathtopumpkins

09-02-2007, 09:01 PM

Wow. And parents always tell us to stay in school. But I'm not getting any ideas. And I don't plan to go into a software-related career. I plan to be an architect or civil engineer. But I do eventually plan to get a Wii, even though by the time I do Wiis will probably be obsolete.

Romaq

09-02-2007, 10:22 PM

Completing high school is neither required for one to earn 'big bucks' nor is it sufficient to ensure one earns the big bucks. It requires ambition and determination. The Fountainhead is a good place to start. If you are going to be an architect, The Fountainhead might REALLY be a good book for you to take interest in, as that's the profession of the central character who is a college drop-out. But he has ambition and determination in spades. And pays for it. As you may well know, no good deed goes unpunished.

But to succeed, you *must* also acquire education to have knowledge of your field, and you must also have practical experience. If what you want to do with your life is work at McDonalds offering fries with that, your typical high school is certainly the place to give you the knowledge and practical experience in the fast food business.

If you get your GED as quick as you can and join the Army Corp of Engineers, you may cheerfully tell the 'School of Worthless Knowledge' what they can do with their worthless diploma and get practical experience as well as solid knowledge in the field. Then when you leave the Army, you'll be in high demand over most anyone else in the field because you not only did the job, you might be able to brag about being able to handle the pressure of doing it with people shooting at you.

Of course, there *IS* risk involved, but that's one way to go about it. Or you could get your GED, drop out of school for a Community College and in two years get an internship. Depending upon what grade level you are in, you could be working full time at a firm in your career of choice unable to attend the graduation of your peers. You would be too busy making money while they are just getting started.

I never thought of taking that route, but it's one I wish I had seriously considered.

--Romaq

deathtopumpkins

09-02-2007, 10:38 PM

I start as a freshman this year... it's not too bad though. I'm pretty familiar with the school. I have some of it planned out. I'm going to finish HS, I'm already taking classes geared towards that career, and then we're looking into colleges. I don't know very far past that.
I'll look that up.
I will not join the army in any sort. I do not support this country, and would not die for it. I despise the president, and all the bad decisions he's made. I know this isn't a place to be talking about political views, but I feel that it is relevant.
I probably will end up in an internship at some point.

Romaq

09-03-2007, 05:47 AM

Persue internship early. The may point I have is: Get Experience. Keep in mind you *can* get experience with SC:S, just focus on making things 'realistic'. It's quite possible for you to simply read books on real things made, and learn *why* decisions were made. I would like to see several accurately rendered monuments, such as The Peace Arch in Blaine, WA (http://www.peacearchpark.org/) and Monument Circle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldiers'_and_Sailors'_Monument_(Indianapolis) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldiers'_and_Sailors'_Monument_(Indianapolis).

Something else you could do is see if you can follow the work I did on importing 'highly accurate terrain' into SC4. See if you can duplicate the work yourself, and in the process learn about 1/3 arc second DEM data and how to get that into SC4. Read up on project management and see if you can become part of a 'BSC'-like team for SC:S. Develop and lead such a team.

There is more to say, but for the purpose of this forum and this thread, you have a great deal of opportunity to train yourself in your career of choice regardless of what anyone else has decided for you. Participation in SC:S may be a part of that opportunity.

And if you do wish to discuss 'non-SCS' type stuff, there's a section on this website I think where we can carry the conversation further there. I don't mind at all, it's just too far afield for a message thread about trade between cities.

--Romaq

Romaq

09-03-2007, 06:02 AM

Ok... Trade between Cities. Based upon Caesar IV, I have an idea of how trade *might* go, though I'm hoping... it doesn't take that direction. I'd prefer to have a 'large but bounded' region, and the ability to see the horizon. I notice that C4 skips the pretense of 'day units' and simply goes for time spent within a month as the smallest temporal unit. I note buildings 'plop' and then grow to a limited extent based on surrounding conditions. I would strongly suggest that this 'growth' feature be kept within SC:S as an option for 'some buildings' and perhaps custom content. Thus, I could create an 'apartment' lot that looks at the current population and decides to be one of 'small/ medium/ large' high-rise. It might also be possible to do a set of 'single family dwellings' (SFD) that, given population pressure expand into 'townhouses', 'large townhouses' and then 'high rises' while keeping the same general style and flavor. This would permit me to 'plop and drop' a suburban chunk of SFD's to start, complete as a gated community, and then have the 'chunk' grow into a residential skyscraper, were the pressure there for it to become such. But I digress, that's just an observation with C4.

So let's look at 'trade between cities'. I note that C4 appears to have roughly the same size area, and no larger. Outside of this area is what I believe is called an 'apron'. That area is static. I would like to be able to 'freeze' the current section I'm working on and 'thaw' a different section of the apron, and thus have a much larger working region. The computer would only have to cope with the current working 'thawed' section.

The only thing to this is that the 'frozen' sections would either have to be frozen in time, exactly how SC4 does it, or they would have to be updated 'monthly' or 'yearly'. The appearance of the nearby city would remain the same on the apron until revisited, but at least the game mechanics itself could be updated in the background, or perhaps as a yearly 'fireworks display' or something that freezes all action and does something trivial with the CPU so the REAL work of syncing the 'frozen' cities with the thawed city currently being worked.

Most likely they will have some 'regional map' like C4, and one may traverse the regional map without that map having much bearing upon the apron and city currently being worked. Or maybe it will. I can't be sure at this stage. I guess we'll find out how they have it when that info is released.

--Romaq

deathtopumpkins

09-03-2007, 01:45 PM

Sorry about my sudden departure last night.

I'm not good enough with computers to do any of that. I would love to, but I don't think I can. I could help though, but I don't even know what half of that is. :(

I will do everything possible to persue my career. I got accepted into the governor's school, and am taking classes geared towards architecture.

You do know there won't be zoning right? Everything's ploppable. I don't think buildings will change to that extent based on the societal values or other influences. How does trade work in C4? I've never played it.
The absense of day/night would be disappointing, and will not happen. We have seen screenshots taken at night.
I do like the ploppable suburbs idea though. I hated that in SC4 sometimes I couldn't figure out why certain things developed certain places. I would build a suburb, and high-rises would develop.
I do hope we wil have some form of regions, as that would really be missed.
The spron concept is kinda new. Almost every game I've ever played has had just empty space beyond the boundaries (besides TS2 and RCT3).

I do hope I've addressed everything in this post.

elebit

09-03-2007, 02:52 PM

I still will miss the zoning, but we shall see when this game comes out. I hope that it will still be realistic and not too simplistic as fas as the city goes.

deathtopumpkins

09-03-2007, 05:15 PM

R.I.P. Zoning
1989-2007
You will be missed by SimCity fans everywhere.

Romaq

09-03-2007, 06:23 PM

I'm aware there will not be zoneing. Caesar IV doesn't have zoning, but if you drop a residential building it may 'evolve' (that's the term it uses) into a building that has more capacity *IF* certain requirements are met. Will SC:S have something like this? I don't know. Most the trouble I have now is that I don't have enough room to shoehorn everything in it seems to want.

Day/ Night isn't 'absent' in Caesar IV, and won't be in SC:S. But 'calendar days' were not noticable. I think it just went month/ year. I'll have to loose closely at that. The issue of trade between cities, you could just have frozen/ thawed cities synchronize trade 'monthly' instead of having to continually update all the cities 'daily'.

The Apron helps sustain the illision of 'beyond' with grass and hills, trees and rock formations, but you can't really 'look' at it. The camera simply won't let you look that far in that direction. Now if 'nearby cities' could be 'frozen' into that apron, and you could get more a look at the horizen, you could really get some great screenshots out of it.

As far as 'trade', you would be able to set up more a window like the trade window in Caesar IV. The trouble is the 'freezing/ thawing' aspect of working with cities. We'll see what TM has cooked up.

As to the 'death' of zoning, SC4 does NOT... I repeat, SC4 does NOT stop working when SC:S is released. I'm not sure I can make the point clear enough yet. SC4 is NOT on a timer, it does NOT stop working when SC:S comes out. As far as I'm concerned, SC4 has a very long life ahead of it, and there is simply no reason you can't continue playing SC4 indefinitely until your hardware no longer runs it.

Hell, for that matter SC3k is still on the shelves at Best Buy. The original SimCity can be played online free, legally. And you can get a Commodore 64 emulator in Java (so it runs on any machine that runs Java) and play Raid on Bungling Bay again. That was a fun game. And I've played XCOM recently.

I have no clue with this 'RIP Zoning' means, other than you'll get to continue to play products that offer it while waiting for another product that has that sort of gamestyle to come out in the future.

--Romaq

elebit

09-03-2007, 06:46 PM

LOL! That was awesome! zoning tombstone!

Romaq

09-03-2007, 06:54 PM

The tombstone for zoning is amusing, but it does ignore the point that SC4 does *NOT* 'expire' on the release date of SC:S. Fact is, if I don't get the entertainment from SC:S that I'm looking for, I can and will STILL be playing SC4 long after SC:S is removed from my computer.

--Romaq

elebit

09-03-2007, 06:58 PM

Yep you got a point there. But still it was funny.

deathtopumpkins

09-03-2007, 08:07 PM

deathtopumpkins

09-03-2007, 08:30 PM

I was just trying to be amusing, not start SCS War II.

I like the apron concept.

Oh, ok. The building might still evolve to have a higher capacity. I was hung up on the no zoning and thinking that if there was no zoning, then lots wouldn't develop.

I will still be playing SC5 after SCS. Hey, the other day I played SC3k again. It is much easier to have a higher population in SC3k. My highest in SC4 is about 140,000 pop., but it was much higher in SC3k. Just an observation I made.

Romaq

09-03-2007, 08:55 PM

I just get a little crazy as things stray into the "YOU KILLED SIMCITY!" territory. As if StarCraft or any other game 'killed' XCOM, which is still being played to this day.

Buildings in SC:S may or may not 'evolve', though I really do hope they put that code in and allow custom content to access that code. I'm really keen on the notion of dropping a 'sky-scraper-wide lot' of single-family dwellings that, as requirements are met, convert into residential townhouses, high-rises and possibly skyscrapers. At least, to have that option would be really keen.

If you want a large population for SC4, please look over the CAM (Colossus Add-on Module) at SC4Devotion. As soon as I can wedge in some SC4 time, that's the direction I'm going to take.

--Romaq

deathtopumpkins

09-03-2007, 08:59 PM

Ok. Yeah, the YOU KILLED SIMCITY gets old real fast.
I think the evolving would be cool.
I'l take a look at that. I haven't made it to all the fansites yet.

elebit

09-04-2007, 02:13 AM

Whew glad to see this wasn't a flame war. Good! I hope that this game is also easy on the ram and as or more stable as sc4 was. I wonder how it wil handle it. That is one thing I worry about in these new games. I know this game is not extensive and demanding on the GPU end and I am glad becuase I have a crappy GPU so..... I hope it won't be demanding. Oh well I need a new one anyways but I'd like to wait till next year but I don't want to wait till next year to play this game.

Romaq

09-04-2007, 02:20 AM

It appears that C4 will point the way, and you can pick it up for $20. It's no longer at the local WalMart, but I continue to see it at the local Fred Meyer's.

As to waiting, you MIGHT find it better to wait until it is released by download so you don't need the damnable CD as a dongle. That's a strong consideration for me at this point. C4 does start with options locked down so it performs ok on 'standard to low end machines'. I kicked everything up to high quality display, since I have a high performance machine.

I also note that the REASON I got a high performance machine was to facilitate playing with UO's Kingdom Reborn client. Which, of course, I'm not playing if I'm poking around in C4. And annoying the hell out of my wife since she wants my company in UO. But I really want to do this one last campain with the camera 'free' turning now, and see how things continue to perform.

My 'Big Cities' thread does have mention of trade between cities in it.

--Romaq

elebit

09-04-2007, 02:32 AM

Download would be nice since the nearest gamestop is 30 mins away and walmart here has a crappy pc game selection and walmart is 3-5 days late for games on average here.

Romaq

09-04-2007, 02:50 AM

Ah! I mentioned in the other thread it sounds as if you might not have room for C4. If you *do* in fact have room, go for it. AND you can download it with credit card. AND not have to putz with the freakin' damndable CD dongle.

Get Caesar IV. If you can play it, you *can* simply make a backup copy of your saved games and uninstall the game when SC:S comes out, if you need the room.

And yes, having one's own PC is very nice. My wife plays UO where I can look right over and see what she's doing, as she sits beside me and can watch what I'm doing. We are not doing anything that requires privacy, and it is REALLY very nice when playing UO together to simply look over and see what's going on to work together.

--Romaq

elebit

09-04-2007, 02:53 AM

I have c4 on the lappie becuse it has more free space but my hubby occassionally plays it and he's the one who got it not me so I dunno....

Romaq

09-04-2007, 05:35 AM

Geez! Sorry, there's you and deathtopumpkin, and in the churn (rate of messages) I got confused as to who is whom. My apologies.

--Romaq

elebit

09-04-2007, 10:51 AM

It's ok ;)

deathtopumpkins

09-04-2007, 02:32 PM

Sorry we're confusing you! :D

elebit

09-04-2007, 03:33 PM

It's a tiring time of year. I am confused too sometimes. You just gotta keep your head on your shoulders and get through this tough time of year. This time of year is always tough fiscally and emotionally since it is still hot but the pools are closing, school started, job searches are hectic, and the last peak moving season of the year is in 1-2 months so everyone is preparing a move and the holidays are coming soon. May is another peak month for activity and moving and everything else and specially... evil allergies!

deathtopumpkins

09-04-2007, 06:56 PM

Well, just take your own advice! :D

Romaq

09-10-2007, 06:31 AM

Ok, poking about with Caesar IV... in the 'world trade' window, I get an overview map. One way I can see this would work is if I could see an area that's a map of the apron used surrounding a city build area, what SC4 refers to as a 'region map'. So I have my region that could be roughly the size of Whatcom County.

Within Whatcom County I can select among various sizes of cities within which to build... small, medium and large. The only restriction is that cities are square and may not overlap, but they MAY be adjacent, or very nearly so.

If I build a city on the edge, such as Pt. Roberts, the other side is simply sky. If I don't want to present shots of 'the edge', I would either have to avoid making cities that close to the region boundary or avoid camera shots looking out towards the edge, which in my case would be Canada or over the water's edge.

If I look out across the water, if it isn't 'too' far away, I might get a glimpse of land. Then again, likely not. I'm not sure I'd be able to see anything of the US from Point Roberts, I'd never been there. So all I could see in looking towards US land would be water.

Supposing I built upon Gooseberry Point of Lummi Peninsula, I could easily see Lummi Island. As I play within a city, when I save the city it would freeze the current image of it into the apron so when I play a city adjacent, the city I left would look appear to remain the same with respect to skylines, roads and whatnot. When I'm looking at the region map, I have the option of exporting and importing between adjacent cities, much the same as I currently do with the map of Rome in C4.

This route would provide for me the illusion of a much, much larger region within which to build than the groups of cities hither & yon within C4's Roman Empire map. I note when playing there are occasions where I've seen a temple of some sort off in the distance, and TM put elaborate care into providing the illusion within the C4 aprons of something always being out there more to explore. What I'm suggesting would allow for me to actually participate in the development of that 'something just on the horizen'. I couldn't create LA as one single chunk, or even Bellingham. But I could recreate the neighborhoods and stitch them together, and enjoy the surrounding skyline frozen upon the apron as the setting for what I'm CURRENTLY working on.

Of course, this still puts SC:S cities on different 'timelines', as it were. The one change I would ask for this is the OPTION of locking the timelines. This would provide the risk that when I go to the adjacent city after years of being away, the program could consider the effect of years of 'neglect' and visit that effect upon my adjacent city... good, bad, ugly. So if I LEAVE the city so as to run itself, nothing bad is likely to happen, though it's possible. If the adjacent city I just worked on was likely to 'do something bad', then the ill effect of the adjacent city I was just working on will visit upon the city I'm just now opening.

I think that's a workable approach, and maybe that's something of what TM has already put into play. Or maybe not. But it's fun to consider how things COULD be until we get details on what actually IS.

--Romaq