The Monuments

[Keith]

Besides the obvious pyramids and places like Abu Simbel what other types of monuments are we talking about for CotN?

More mud brick mastabas? Valley of the Kings?

Will the range of the game extend the full history of Egypt up to Cleopatra again and allow us to build the monuments of Alexandria again?

Since many monuments are funerary in nature, will we see burial processions on the streets of our city? You have to admit that the Egyptians were pre-occupied with the death and the afterlife.

Will we see our mortal remains ferried to the afterlife along the Nile to the Karnack?

I think that would add some true sense of mortality and life to the game.

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[Ineti]

I think it would be really cool to see Karnak develop from mission to mission as one king after another add on to it. You could start it in one mission, add pylon 2 in the next, pylon 3 in the next, and so on.

Don't know if that's workable, though.

[Keith]

I think it would be really cool to see Karnak develop from mission to mission as one king after another add on to it. You could start it in one mission, add pylon 2 in the next, pylon 3 in the next, and so on.

Don't know if that's workable, though.
Yes, it would definitely be an interesting monumental project to build Karnak. You have five monuments all roled into one with the Temple of Thebes, Temple of Amun, Great Hypostyle Hall, Obelisk of Thutmose I, and The Sixth Pylon of Karnak Temple.
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[Ineti]

Yes, it would definitely be an interesting monumental project to build Karnak. You have five monuments all roled into one with the Temple of Thebes, Temple of Amun, Great Hypostyle Hall, Obelisk of Thutmose I, and The Sixth Pylon of Karnak Temple.

Exactly. Plus the smaller chapels, other obelisks, and related out-buildings.

Speaking of which, it'd be neat to see how the religious types eventually gained power and split the country and ruled for a time in Thebes. Not sure if that would fit in the game specifically, but maybe a mention would be a fun tip of the double crown to history.

[EmperorJay]

The same goes for the Valley of Kings of course. Imagine you're walking through it for the first time and no entrances can be seen, as you progress in the game, you'll see more and more signs of old tombs.

I hope that you won't be able to choose the place of your tomb in the Valley of Kings though. The place was decided by the gods.

[Ineti]

The same goes for the Valley of Kings of course. Imagine you're walking through it for the first time and no entrances can be seen, as you progress in the game, you'll see more and more signs of old tombs.

That would be a great feature.

[Jayhawk]

I guess that would all depend on the persistence of the changes you made in the game world.

Personally, I'd love to add slowly to places like Karnak, or Philea. A temple here, a stele there, add a kiosk or two. Hmmm, how about a sacred lake...

:: wanders of into the lone and level sands ::

[mouse]

Wonders if cities will carry over to added to or will each have to be built from scratch :D *AJ come back from the sands of time*

[Keith]

Wonders if cities will carry over to added to or will each have to be built from scratch :D *AJ come back from the sands of time*
It's a good question. I suppose it depends on how they intend the player to actually play the game. If each player assumes the role of a ruler and the campaign is over when the ruller dies, I'm guessing that cities won't be carried over. I have a feeling that they intend the player to play the game through the eyes of that ruler and when his time is up the game is basically over for that character and you start over again. At least that the sense I'm getting from what I've read so far....all speculation of course.
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[Pecunia]

I have a feeling that they intend the player to play the game through the eyes of that ruler and when his time is up the game is basically over for that character and you start over again.
If you start over as a new pharaoh/ruler as the direct successor of the old one, the most logical would be that your city will be just about the same as when your old self died. After all, the Egyptians didn't build a new capital city for every new pharaoh, did they?

[Keith]

If you start over as a new pharaoh/ruler as the direct successor of the old one, the most logical would be that your city will be just about the same as when your old self died. After all, the Egyptians didn't build a new capital city for every new pharaoh, did they?
True. Until we find out what the time scale is we won't know how long a single reign might be in CotN. I'm just guessing that the "campaign" duration is the lifespan of the ruler character you assume in the game.
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[Jaguar]

I guess it's personal preference, but I don't like coming back to cities for new campaigns. I much prefer to have a blank slate to work from.

That's not to say that I won't play the game if it does go back to previous cities though ;)

[G-Force]

We're Pharaoh, so shouldn't we get to decide if we want to build a new capital or expand the current one ;)

G-Force

[EmperorJay]

I like starting from scratch most too, but if I go back to a previously build city with new options (buildings, technology) and I'm able to see my city grow, change and evolve, I would be thrilled to see that I've revived a forgotten city.

[Keith]

Regardless if you build a new city or re-build or expand rebuild a pre-existing city any monuments there should be carried over to the next missions much as it was done in Cleopatra.

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[Timhotep]

Regardless if you build a new city or re-build or expand rebuild a pre-existing city any monuments there should be carried over to the next missions much as it was done in Cleopatra.

I agree. This was the way most of the monuments, especially large temples were built. A new pharaoh added pylons, statues etc. to the temple, using often materials from older monuments.

I´ve been in Luxor and visited the temples of Karnak and Luxor. Building these temple complexes would be most interesting in a game and a real challenge when you think about planning the city.

The Karnak temple complex is huge, some 30 hectares (75 acres) and it was connected to the temple of Luxor with a causeway 2 km long.

I don´t know anything about game programming, so I don´t know if it is possible to build these complexes in the game. I hope it is!

[Keith]

I agree. This was the way most of the monuments, especially large temples were built. A new pharaoh added pylons, statues etc. to the temple, using often materials from older monuments.

I´ve been in Luxor and visited the temples of Karnak and Luxor. Building these temple complexes would be most interesting in a game and a real challenge when you think about planning the city.

The Karnak temple complex is huge, some 30 hectares (75 acres) and it was connected to the temple of Luxor with a causeway 2 km long.

I don´t know anything about game programming, so I don´t know if it is possible to build these complexes in the game. I hope it is!
One thing for certain, with this sort of thing there's going to be a need for very huge terrain maps to build upon in the game. ;) I always felt that the maps in the previous games were somewhat clausterphobic.
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[Timhotep]

One thing for certain, with this sort of thing there's going to be a need for very huge terrain maps to build upon in the game. ;) I always felt that the maps in the previous games were somewhat clausterphobic.

I´ve played a game named Battlezone (a good game btw), There was enourmous 3D maps in it, and the game was running smoothly in my old computer (350mHz PII). I hope this is not a problem.

[Celebithil Dae]

One thing for certain, with this sort of thing there's going to be a need for very huge terrain maps to build upon in the game. ;) I always felt that the maps in the previous games were somewhat clausterphobic.
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Yeah, on Pharaoh (which i just got today) the maps drive me nuts with their (lack of) size. Big maps would DEFINATLY be a BIG plus in my book. Room to stretch out :)

[Keith]

Yeah, on Pharaoh (which i just got today) the maps drive me nuts with their (lack of) size. Big maps would DEFINATLY be a BIG plus in my book. Room to stretch out :)
Emperor, the last in the series currently, has "enormous" maps which are fairly large.

I'm hoping things would be a little closer to scale compared to each other, ie, the people to the size of the buildings, the buildings in comparison to the size of the monuments, etc. With that sort of premise you are going to need huge areas to construct just a single pyramid on.

I realize that ther have to be limits based on the overall average of the current computers being used by customers and only high end machines with lots of RAM and CPU power will be able handle tons of 3D information. No one likes artificial limits, but they must exist.

I can only hope that we'll see much larger maps in CotN than we have seen in previous citybuilders.

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[Miut]

Keith,
It's a common mistake to think the Egyptians were obsessed with death when we only have the remains of their tombs to look at! As you know, they built mainly in mud bricks, even for royal palaces, which meant erosion etc destroyed most of their buildings. And palaces seem to have been rebuilt for each new monarch. So it was mainly their stone monumental temples, funerary work and war memorials survived,. We do have some remains of the City Akhetaten and of Deir el Medina, the workmen's village.. http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/medina.htm

Got a great book from British Museum on their religion and the Egyptians were obsessed with *life* not death - which is why their tombs contained so many paintings of daily life.
They loved it so much their belief of Life After Death centered totally round life essentially continuing as it was for them after they died. Thus the need for ushabti figures to do the work. After all fields needed ploughng and harvests reaping etc. Some have been found bearing inscriptions saying they will act for the dead person in the Afterlife.

I'd love to build Karnak bit by bit. :) However given that apart from the very early times, the capital stayed mostly at Thebes, and same with state funerals, (going to the West was a phrase that meant dying as Valley of Kings is on West Bank of Nile) it would mean playing in the same city apart from when the capital was at Memphis of Pi-Ramesses, or Akhetaten..

I did like being an official of Pharaoh's in Pharaoh as it meant heading off into unknown territory and setting up a new settlement. Can't really see how both can be combined unless we do keep returning to Thebes and/or Memphis as Pi-Ramesses and Akhetaten were built some years into the reigns of the approproate pharaohs..

I am pretty sure like most folk here I'll love it whatever. ;)

[Jayhawk]

Judging from the screenshots it looks as if things will be scaled more realistically and that the 'maps' will offer quite a lot of space to build our real estates.

Who knows we may get something like SimCity 4's option of developing over multiple maps. I'd still love to be able to have to set up the granite quarries in Aswan to supply me with the resources needed by my sculptors back North in Giza, grow food in the Delta to supply the workers in Aswan, get Tura developed for limestone, etc, etc. ending up with a huge interconnected world, where each site can be under your personal control or that of your AI overseers.

[Ineti]

Who knows we may get something like SimCity 4's option of developing over multiple maps. I'd still love to be able to have to set up the granite quarries in Aswan to supply me with the resources needed by my sculptors back North in Giza, grow food in the Delta to supply the workers in Aswan, get Tura developed for limestone, etc, etc. ending up with a huge interconnected world, where each site can be under your personal control or that of your AI overseers.

That would be a lot of fun as well, though there would be an interesting time issue. It would take a while to get a shipment of stone from Aswan to your city. That would make monument building that much longer.

Still be entertaining, though. :)

[G-Force]

The AI overseers will then have to behave like we want them too, for exemple they would have to ship a quantity of stones every six months. They would have to be a bit programmable by the player. As the Pharaoh could instruct his overseers to do this or that.

G-Force

[EmperorJay]

Judging from the screenshots it looks as if things will be scaled more realistically and that the 'maps' will offer quite a lot of space to build our real estates.

Who knows we may get something like SimCity 4's option of developing over multiple maps. I'd still love to be able to have to set up the granite quarries in Aswan to supply me with the resources needed by my sculptors back North in Giza, grow food in the Delta to supply the workers in Aswan, get Tura developed for limestone, etc, etc. ending up with a huge interconnected world, where each site can be under your personal control or that of your AI overseers.

I suggested that somewhere as well. I think it was in a thread about Trade. Such a system would be absolutely wonderful.

[Keith]

The construction screenshots I've just seen look impressive. One appears to be the Temple of Karnak under cosntruction from the massive pillars in the picture. The one with the pyramid construction reviels a massive construction project much larger than anything we've seen in Pharaoh. The workers hauling the stone block over the tops of one of the pyramid layers look so tiny.

A modern engineer architect once did a analasys of what it would take to build a pyramid using the ancient method and he came to the conclusion that 20,000 men could construct one in as little as 10 years, or 10,000 men in 20 years.
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[EmperorJay]

The ramps look interesting as well, no wood but just dirt it seems.

I wished that the construction times would be shorter (on HG I said that I think), in hindsight, however, I must say that I would not mind long construction times if I would have other things to do as well during a period of 20 years.

Edit: Such as walking through my beautiful city :D

[Keith]

The ramps look interesting as well, no wood but just dirt it seems.

I wished that the construction times would be shorter (on HG I said that I think), in hindsight, however, I must say that I would not mind long construction times if I would have other things to do as well during a period of 20 years.

Edit: Such as walking through my beautiful city :D
Yeah that one big ramp doesn't jive with the modern theory though. As I mentioned earlier, it is now believed that the dirt ramp was built built upon the stepped surface of each course of stones along the face of the pyarmid making for a much smaller ramp, similar to the wooden one depicted in the pyramid building in Pharaoh. It makes sense, since one thing they had plenty of is sand with which to construct such ramps. Wood was probably too labor intensive to cut and gather to use on a massive scale and too scarce to come by.
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[Miut]

I think it was likely a mud ramp as dirt or sand would dry out too quickly in that heat. And they certainly had plenty of mud! I suspect it might even have been sun-baked bricks providing the mass of the ramp, then covered with mud as a kind of glue.

After all, given they were hauling the blocks up the ramps, it would need to compact and remain solid, and be capable of having water, or perhpas even oil, spread on it as is depicted in a tomb painitng/drawing of a nobleman's statue being pulled through town on a sled and someone standing on its lap pouring water or oil in front of the rollers/sled. (again excuse that this is from memory, books in transit. :( )

[Keith]

I think it was likely a mud ramp as dirt or sand would dry out too quickly in that heat. And they certainly had plenty of mud! I suspect it might even have been sun-baked bricks providing the mass of the ramp, then covered with mud as a kind of glue.

After all, given they were hauling the blocks up the ramps, it would need to compact and remain solid, and be capable of having water, or perhpas even oil, spread on it as is depicted in a tomb painitng/drawing of a nobleman's statue being pulled through town on a sled and someone standing on its lap pouring water or oil in front of the rollers/sled. (again excuse that this is from memory, books in transit. :( )
Possible, but it would seem unlikely that mud bricks could stand up to the punisment of hauling literally millions of heavy sledges over them without excessive wear. It would require a nearly constant state of repair and replacement and would take labor away from the main project. It would seem to me that they would have used smaller paving stone surface on a some sort of base material like compacted sand held in place along the stepped face of the pyramid by a wall made up of mud bricks. If you use sand between two hard surfaces, the stone surface and sledge runners, it acts like a lubricant for the sledges. Oil would be so expensive to use, not mention messy and difficult to walk on a oiled surface that water was probably used in your example. Then again maybe it was sand that they were pouring! http://forums.delphiforums.com/i/micons/19.gif
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[Keith]

Yeah that one big ramp doesn't jive with the modern theory though. As I mentioned earlier, it is now believed that the dirt ramp was built built upon the stepped surface of each course of stones along the face of the pyarmid making for a much smaller ramp, similar to the wooden one depicted in the pyramid building in Pharaoh. It makes sense, since one thing they had plenty of is sand with which to construct such ramps. Wood was probably too labor intensive to cut and gather to use on a massive scale and too scarce to come by.

Here's some images of the types of ramp I was talking about:

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/arch26b.jpg

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/arch27b.jpg

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/arch28b.jpg

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/arch29b.jpg

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/arch30b.jpg
http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/arch31b.jpg

© Canadian Museum of Civilization Corporation

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[EmperorJay]

Nice pics, thank you Keith. The ramp on the screenshot indeed doesn't exactly resemble those, but I think it does could be the same as the ramps on pics, if we could only get the full screenshot..

[Keith]

You know I was going through old screenshots and while looking at the below dealing with pyramid construction I noticed something else:

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/screen0/920314_20040514_screen026.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/screen0/920314_20040514_screen027.jpg

The thing I noticed about those two shots is that the pyramid face is already "finished" down to its final form instead of being "stepped" and unfinished.

This is "bass-ackwards" from the way it should be. The pyramid facing was finished fromt he top down after the placement of the capstone. Then working downward over the face of the pyramid the ramp was slowly dismantled.

The pyramid construction should be more similar to the one depicted in Pharaoh (and in the pictures I posted in above in this thread.)

I hope they correct this.
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[EmperorJay]

I'm not certain about those screenshots. They look so good that I first thought they could be from a movie or that they are artwork completely. But if you are right (and there is no reason to think you're not) I too hope they correct it.

[Pharaoh]

This is a quite noticable error, howevere, if they were making every detail in the accurate, the game would never be released. ;)

[Reed]

I'm not certain about those screenshots. They look so good that I first thought they could be from a movie or that they are artwork completely. But if you are right (and there is no reason to think you're not) I too hope they correct it.You're right, those aren't screenshots.

[Keith]

You're right, those aren't screenshots.
It may be a good idea to mark the pictures that are not from the actual game play to avoid confusion.
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[Uatch-Khepheru]

Wow, if those are in-game screenshots those are some incredible graphics, especially for a CB-type game. Also, could someone point out whats so wrong 'bout those screenshots?. They look normal to me.

[Keith]

Wow, if those are in-game screenshots those are some incredible graphics, especially for a CB-type game. Also, could someone point out whats so wrong 'bout those screenshots?. They look normal to me.
They are from a video, not from the game, evidently. The problem with them is that the pyramid stones are already finished or polished with the ramp running around them to the top. This would not be the case. As I explained above, the pyramid was "finished" from the top down and not the bottom up. The ramp would be built on the unfinished facing stones. As the facing stones were finished from the top down the ramp would be dismantled until they finally reached the ground level.
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[Miut]

Were those pix from a TV presentation where they showed how the pyramids could have been built using two business men to work out the logistics?

As for the oil or water, Keith, I was quoting what the text under a picture of men hauling a single statue through a town said, not my interpretation of it - sorry, should have made that more clear. Certainly in hauling the one statue of the nobleman, they could indeed have used oil, and as he was being allowed by Pharaoh to not only to have a large sculpture of himself, but have it pulled through the town, I kinda think the copst of using oil wouldn't have been an issue. ;)

However you're quite right about oil on pyramid ramps - Good point. It never occurred to me about it making the way slippy for the many other blocks that would have to come up, plus the people hauling them.

Your ramps look more practical, I have to admit, but I still can't figure out why they didn't go slding off the side of the pyramid! :cool:

[Keith]

The pics above are from the Canadian Museum of Civilization diarama of what they think a pyramid construction would look like.

[Miut]

Ah. Are you out that way yourself? They certainly seem to be big on reconstructions of Ancient Egypt. Wish I could get there and see it for myself. Tnaks for posting them! :)

[Keith]

Actually, no. I stumbled across them on the internet.