Would Tilted Mill do this for their fans?

[eobet]

There are so many questions in this forum, and (so far) so little answers. Sure, it helps to keep the excitement level up, but what will happen when the game is released? If it is ill received, will there be a series of patches or a mission disk to correct things?

How about letting some long time fans of the City Building Series beta test the game, and try to add whatever features of changes they want (and have them to be optional if they conflict with the mass appeal of the game)?

I ask this because it is easy to go "blind" towards your own product, and when demos are released, the product is usually to far developed to make any changes. Also, patches are such a drudge, and who knows if there will be money for a mission disk or not?

[EmperorJay]

My experience with Impressions is positive when it comes to this.

The previous CB games needed 1 or 2 patches only. After that they still had glitches, but no major bugs. (Except for C3, which had a bug at Very Hard level). So, bug-wise I think (or at least hope) you can expect no more than 2 or 3 patches to solve all problems. Of course, CotN is very diffirent, so possibly this game will be less stable, but given the previous games I'm hopeful.

Many long time citybuilding fans have beta tested the CB games as early as Pharaoh. (I don't know who exactly, but some people from this forum were on that beta test). I still remember having signed up for the Zeus (or Poseidon) beta, but I was like 12 back then, so I was too young. But I was invited (after filling in a form) to the Emperor beta test along with many others. Note that this was done by BreakAway in cooperation with Imps, so I don't recall if it was Imps policy to do an all out public beta test or if it was on invite-basis only. Point is, long time CB fans have been on included in the past.

Also, altough some suggestions can be implented during a beta test, I think that you won't see any major changes during the beta due to time limits.

I don't think we'll see mission disks. However, a real expansion is very well possible. Cleopatra not only added a whole range of missions, but buildings, enemy and tombs (among other things as well). Poseiden added the Atlantean civilization and new gods etc. There was never an expansion pack for C3, why I don't know and I doubt an expansion for Emperor will be announced. However, if there will be an expansion for CotN, it will most likely not just include missions only.

[Cironir]

My guess is that there will be a beta test at some point in the future, but as Jay wrote, beta tests are usually conducated after most of the design decisions have already been made. In my opinion, that is the "way to go", because the alternative is that you get a hundred of different opinions and suggestions from a hundred of different testers, all trying to redesign the product. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with this, as I think we all have a distinctive idea of what our "dream game" should be like, but it isn't terribly efficient.

Speaking of fan support: I'd love to see frequent "Meet the Development Team" IRC sessions. Perhaps once a month? Those sessons could have specific topics, too. This is more common in the MMORPG world, but who knows, might be worth a try. :)

[Manni]

I must agree to EmperorJay`s: *My experience with Impressions is positive when it comes to this*

Remember the one oder two patches for Pharao/Zeus/Poseidon for instance.
Do compare with other games!
Some patch appears straight after the day of release and then enormous MB`s.
I can name a few.

[Keith]

There are so many questions in this forum, and (so far) so little answers. Sure, it helps to keep the excitement level up, but what will happen when the game is released? If it is ill received, will there be a series of patches or a mission disk to correct things?

How about letting some long time fans of the City Building Series beta test the game, and try to add whatever features of changes they want (and have them to be optional if they conflict with the mass appeal of the game)?

I ask this because it is easy to go "blind" towards your own product, and when demos are released, the product is usually to far developed to make any changes. Also, patches are such a drudge, and who knows if there will be money for a mission disk or not?I'm not concerned that the game will be "ill received". These guys have a good reputation and their past achievements bode well for CotN. Citybuilders on the whole have not been a "mass-appeal" game genre. It has been a rather small and growing niche genre for the past 6 years but nothing that would compete with the FPS shooters and online games that clog the bandwidth now. ;)

Beta tests in the past have been open to all those that apply, but only a certain type and number will be selected. There are many of the former citybuilder game beta testers already lurking here. It is safe to say that all the beta testers have been "fans" of the game series.

Past experience shows that they try to clean up the game as much as possible before the release, but if a patch or two is needed afterwards I'm sure we'll get them. History shows that they don't go blind after a game is released, at least it is time to move on to the next the next game to develop.

A add-on/expansion game probably depends on how well the released version goes, if they can think of any thing to add on in the first place.

I have faith in these guys, and they will deliver us a great new game.
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[Eddy]

I'm not worried about them either. Their games are among the most stable in terms of performance. I don't recall ever having a game of theirs crash unless I did something wonky with the editor that wasn't intended to be done by mere mortals. The lack of patches also shows how well they do things. I've seen patches on the day of release because the game wouldn't even fire up out of the box. JoWood, I'm looking straight at you here. City-building isn't a popular segment of the gaming market, but it is a strongly loyal niche for people who aren't the "typical" gamer. I've noticed a lot of women seem to enjoy this area, and I think the marketers should exploit that. For women, the computer world is intimidating because of the incredible amount of violence that exists in shooters and RPGs. The violence, while not completely eliminated, is much more abstract in a builder game.

[NeilV]

I normally have a habit of only getting games a while after their release so that the first round of patches have been released I will only buy a new game quickly if I trust the developers so that I know it will work out of the box of all the games in the last while its only been sim-city 4, emperor and rollercoaster tycoon 2 I am some one just lives with the fact that patches and updates are part of the modern computing age and its not become such a bind since I got broadband installed before that I would go to the local internet cafe once a month a fill up a CD or two of updates and demos. As for letting fans giving game direction after beta testing is not a good idea as we all have our won wish list that we would like to see beta testing is more a time to remove bugs and glitches alpha testing is normally used for imputing ideas and this is normally done by the team or professional testers who know the scope of the game and its limitations.

[swampthing]

I know a number of games that have multiple patches. Some for bugs, but othertimes they are simply to readjust the game. Like if there is a part that is particularly tedious, a patch will fix it by changing the system a bit. Unexpected things appear after a game is released and patches are really the only way to fix them. I think the patch is one of the best things with the computer gaming world. Unlike consoles, computer games can be updated and enhanced over time.

So hopefully CotN wont need patches, but will get little adjustments that add life to the game.

[Miut]

On the converse side, look at a game like Diablo 2 which still releases patches every now and then to enhance the on-line gaming experience as well as Single or Cooperative play.

Not all patches are to fix errors you know. ;)

[Josh]

with Imps...er Tilted Mill's dedicated and devoted built in fanbase it would be crazy of them to look for beta testers anywhere else.

[Eddy]

Of course, after getting to know me in these forums, they may put a special notice on the box specifically forbidding me to even touch the game.

[vovan]

How about letting some long time fans of the City Building Series beta test the game, and try to add whatever features of changes they want (and have them to be optional if they conflict with the mass appeal of the game)?

I'll bet there will be a beta test specially for that: to fix bugs and potentially listen for suggestions. :)

Of course, after getting to know me in these forums, they may put a special notice on the box specifically forbidding me to even touch the game.

But Eddy, don't forget - the express purpose of a beta test is to try and break the game - you might just be the man for the job. :D

[Eddy]

That was one thing I was good at. I had a job as a computer mainframe operator where it was learned that I had a unique talent for breaking any program. This actually turned out to be an asset on several occasions where the programmers would claim to have a user-proof interface. My favorite example was when the big bosses were there to see some vital program that obviously hadn't been beta tested enough. One of the programmers said that anyone could use it. I happened to be sitting next to one of the big cheeses who said "ok, we'll have him (me) use it since he isn't in your department." The programmers all turned pale, the mainframe ops were struggling in vain not to laugh, and the bosses were clueless as to the commotion.

I went up and dutifully performed. Name. No problem. User ID. No problem. Age. Twenty-nine. I typed it just like that. WHAM! System crash. The program had clearly expected a numeral. "You were supposed to put a number in!", yelled one of the now mortified programmers. "But I did. Twenty-nine is a number.", I said as if speaking to an idiot. The ops lost it at that point, the bosses suggested somewhat crossly that their program needed a bit more work, and I was considered a hero for ending a meeting early on a Friday.

[vovan]

LOL. Very nice Eddy. I tell you, if you can document well what you did to make it break, you'll be an invaluable beta-tester.

I think I seem to have the exact opposite effect on programs and hardware in general. Countless are the times, when my teammates and I would be working deep into the night on a college programming project, and one of them would call me over to take a look at some weird bug. I would come in, stare blankly at the code for some time, and then say "okay, show to me what happens". They would run the thing, and it would work like a charm. A few moments after I leave and settle in front of my monitor, I would hear a desperate scream "But it does NOT work! Look! I swear it doesn't," or something along those lines, which is why I am always chosen to demo projects for a grade. :)

[Eddy]

I was responsible for a change in Tropico for that very reason. I was beta-testing the Paradise Island expansion pack along with several other members of the web forum dedicated to the game. I was playing (and losing) when the mother of all hurricanes whomped my island. Only two buildings were standing, the palace and the construction shack. The one connection I had to the outside was destroyed. My treasury was in the red so I couldn't rebuild the dock which was the way to export goods and import tourists. That meant I watched with growing horror as my island plunged into anarchy, starvation, and my eventual ousting from power. Now, if that scenario happens, you get foreign aid to allow you to build a dock no matter how deeply in debt you are.

[vovan]

See? You are a natural-born tester. :D

[Caesar Alan]

Much like Eddy, I have a habit of triggering esoteric and occasionally ridiculous bugs.

My favourite comes from the Emperor beta-test. I managed to get the game to crash when cancelling out of the 'choose a family name' screen. I went back and tried again, and much to my dismay it didn't happen. After a few hours of head-scratching, I finally worked out that the bug was only triggered the first time the game was run after installation!

I seem to remember it took the programmers about five weeks to fix that :D

[vovan]

LOL. I remember that one, CA. :D It puzzled me as well. There I went browsing the bug reports to see if the stuff I wrote up had already been reported, and saw the report of a crash upon entering the family name. I thought "wow, that is amazing." Hehe.

EDIT: Hmmm... I wonder if I should have used the word "report" or it's derivatives a couple more times in there somewhere. :)

[Miut]

I'm another person that software dislikes and falls over because I put in some info, or try to make it do what it obviously (to me) is supposed to do, and promptly crash the whole shebang! I'm the idiot NO software os proof against at times. ;)

[Jayhawk]

Assuming there will be a beta test, I expect there will be a sign up option at some stage. I also believe that there are enough people over at TM who were involved in the Imp betas to know who of the long term fans would make good testers.

We'll see. :)

[eobet]

Right, fans of the games, not of the people who make it... so to speak. That is, I think some may view Tilted Mill as the hen which only lies golden eggs, whereas others examine the egg for cracks. :)

(Though, perhaps that was a bad (or good) allegory, since an egg is considered one of the most perfect inventions of nature.) :)

[mouse]

My experience with the Tilted Mill folks when they were Impressions folks is that they wanted beat testers to break the game :D They wanted folks to look for cracks in the "egg" in a constructive manner ;) Pretty sure they will use the through beta testing process that they established with Pharoah and the games that came after it.
Many long time gamers are fans of the developers but not blind to game problems. City builder beta testers seem to feel they have a duty to help the developers bring out the very best game possible, a game everybody can be proud to have a part of the end product :D

[Bugsy]

I'm not worried about them either. Their games are among the most stable in terms of performance. I don't recall ever having a game of theirs crash unless I did something wonky with the editor that wasn't intended to be done by mere mortals. The lack of patches also shows how well they do things. I've seen patches on the day of release because the game wouldn't even fire up out of the box. JoWood, I'm looking straight at you here. City-building isn't a popular segment of the gaming market, but it is a strongly loyal niche for people who aren't the "typical" gamer. I've noticed a lot of women seem to enjoy this area, and I think the marketers should exploit that. For women, the computer world is intimidating because of the incredible amount of violence that exists in shooters and RPGs. The violence, while not completely eliminated, is much more abstract in a builder game.
<g> :-D You have me pegged, Eddy! I'm a woman, and definitely turned off by the gore in some games. While I simply adored the Baldur's Gate series, it was quite graphic with the monsters limbs flopping around a bit when you killed them, and because I am a pack rat, (and I'm going to hell for it I was told by a little imp too! LOL) I even carried a dead humanoid body around for quite some time until a NPC in a town told me I was crazy to keep carrying it, it stunk LOL

I did love that in most scenarios in Casear, Pharaoh, & Zeus, you could avoid the worst of the fighting, and none of it was gory. I love the building and trade parts of it. I'm really not much on warfare in my games. I adore RPGs, but the less fighting, the more exploring, the better. Dreamcatcher games stole my heart with their adventure games, usually no fighting at all in those, it's all puzzles and exploring.

[Bugsy]

[QUOTE=NeilV]I am some one just lives with the fact that patches and updates are part of the modern computing age QUOTE]

They really are, as very few games can be tested on all possible systems before release. There are so many different system and brand combinations, all with their own little quirks for working or not, there is no way any team could really get away without even one little bug. The minimum requirements for this game do not look bottom of the line either, but I would put money down that someone will play it who doesn't meet the specs--or attempt to.

[Eddy]

Whoa! I got a chick, erm I mean a mature woman to agree with me!

So hey baby, wanna go out with a really cool dude?

Ahem.

What I mean to say is that women are an overlooked part of gaming and it really is a shame because from the game maker's view, they are a good half of the market. I just don't understand why the programmers aren't trying to appeal to women since there is a huge untapped market there.

[vovan]

I just don't understand why the programmers aren't trying to appeal to women since there is a huge untapped market there.

Okay, okay, I know that one. :)

Several problems there.

1. The general impression is that women like all things girly. But programmers are men for the most part. So, it just doesn't appeal to them to program "girly games".

2. Many games, it looks like from the gameplay, are poorly designed. It often times looks like people just code a tech demo, and tack on gameplay as an afterthought (id Software anyone?). Hence, it is easier to go the tried and true path of bloody and violence than come up with elaborate rules for engaging gameplay.

3. Hmmm... How should I say this one... Let's start a lil far away: I attend a university. I study to be a programmer, to put it in a rather simplified fashion. The uni I attend has about 20% girls - the rest are guys. Now, guess how many of them share my major? Pretty ones? Ahmm... Not many. :) Now, if you put your mind to it, you can find 'em and have a generally good time, but seriously, most people don't bother. They spend all the time either in their room or at the computer lab. Make your own conclusions. :)

[tobing]

There was a report some time ago, don't know where I have read it, about computer usage by men and women, what they do and how long they do it. The result was somewhat surprising: Overall it's more women using the computer. The older the more women are there. In simple words: the young people are mostly men, and they are playing games (we know what type of games), and the not so young people are women using the computer as communication medium. So they are chatting, mailing etc. And they are playing The Sims, of course, and maybe related rpg's. So if you want to make games for women you need to build in communication and chat instead of blood and gore...

[eobet]

I am some one just lives with the fact that patches and updates are part of the modern computing age

They really are, as very few games can be tested on all possible systems before release. There are so many different system and brand combinations... *SNIP*

STOP RIGHT THERE!

I was actually waiting for this "urban legend" to surface, because that is exactly what it is: System related fixes constitute a very small percentage of patches. Nearly all listed fixes in patches are gameplay related! Ie. things which a good design document, or good playtesting could have dealt with, and not the paying customer.

PC games are simply very poorly tested, and don't go through as much QA as console games do.

[Miut]

Hey, I resent the assumption that us wimmen don't play blood and gore games too! When I want to just unwind and get rid of angst cos Murphy has been after me again (Murphy's Law things happen a lot to me) then Unreal Tournament gets played! Or Unreal 2.
But when I want to relax in a different way for a longer period, I play Pharaoh. I tried the Sims and didn't like them - too picky, fiddly and I really didn't give a damn about the people. My little Eggyputians are a whole different thing though. I loves them, I do. :D
As for making games for women, why? Many of us don't like women's magazines or anything supposedly designed for women. I have never in my life bought a women's magazine twice. I get Scientific American, or one of the PC mags or KMT or something actually intellectual and interesting... and how many women do you know who can pack a sword effectively or loose 19 arrows per minute accurately at a target 20 yards away, eh?

So don't patronize us gals, please. We don't need it! ;)

[Keith]

STOP RIGHT THERE!
PC games are simply very poorly tested, and don't go through as much QA as console games do.You aren't going to win many friends with the devs with statements like that one. :eek: ;)

Time constraints and budget come into play here. There are many dev teams that endeavour to do a better job of testing than others, so you can't use a blanket statement like that one. There are limitations on what they can actually do.

So don't patronize us gals, please. We don't need it!Well, the truth is the market is predominately driven by adolescent males so the bulk of the market is driven by that fact. I've seen many women playing games, but they do tend to shy away from the more blood thirsty ones. There are always exceptions.

On the other hand, there's nothing like watching your target's head pop like a grape in your sniper scope for some occasional emotional release! :D
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[NeilV]

PC games are simply very poorly tested, and don't go through as much QA as console games do.

PC games normaly get about the same length of QA as console games but about half of that is hardware testing where on a console they get to do most of it on game play.

[Cironir]

Hey, I resent the assumption that us wimmen don't play blood and gore games too!

*grins* I waited for this! One of the best FPS gamers I know is a woman, too. Various of my female friends play all kinds of games that feature combat, ranging from Diablo II, Dungeon Siege to NWN, and plenty of others. I knew more female UO players than male ones, for instance, though UO did offer more than just combat (you could build your own house, craft items, etc.). It's also true that graphical-virtual worlds tend to have a higher percentage of female users, but I don't know if there are really "typically female" and "typically male" games/genres. It may just be a social "thing": society allows men to be boys (and have their toys), while women are often expected to be more responsible (e.g. use their time productively) -- and computer games are "toys". I think that female video gamers will be much less of "rare" sight in ten or fifteen years, since today's teens seem fairly equal in this regard.

[eobet]

You aren't going to win many friends with the devs with statements like that one. :eek: ;)

Time constraints and budget come into play here. There are many dev teams that endeavour to do a better job of testing than others, so you can't use a blanket statement like that one. There are limitations on what they can actually do.

I'm not posting for points. Call me a front line correspondent. ;)

Also, do note that I haven't shared my views at all on what I think Tilted Mill is capable of or not. Someone said that the Tilted Mill people left early in the Lords of the Realms 3 development, so I do hold them in very high regard still. :p

Don't you mean "there are a few dev teams"...? I do think my "blanket statement" holds water, becuase it is often not up do the dev team, but the publisher to decide when a game is to be released (as you also imply). However, on the consoles, publishers first have to send their games to Sony or Nintendo for approval, and they do even more QA testing. There is no similar controlling body on the PC side (which is good for independant gaming, though).

[Cironir]

However, on the consoles, publishers first have to send their games to Sony or Nintendo for approval, and they do even more QA testing. There is no similar controlling body on the PC side (which is good for independant gaming, though).

Thank goodness. I really think what the PC gaming market needs is more independence and more creative freedom, not less. Granted, I don't buy Playstation games (but I keep an eye on them, just to stay in the loop what's out there), but I feel that too many approval instances stiffle innovation. I realise that you were referring to QA, and I agree that games nowadays suffer from the "green bananas" symptom (software ripes on the machines of the customers), but I prefer this over too much control from the publisher (look at Railroad Tycoon 3, which would probably be far more complete if the publisher hadn't pushed so hard to get it out, though it's still an enjoyable game). I think with game development being so expensive today, companies just have to get their products out, so that they can continue to survive.

While I'd prefer to get a game that runs fine out of the box, having to download patches isn't my major concern. What I'm more worried about is that the developers of a game lose interest in the title before I do, which then usually means no more bugfixes. If I enjoy the game and they release twelve patches over the period of a year, that's actually all right with me. What's not all right is if they release two patches, leave some bugs unfixed and move on to another project.

However, the people at Tilted Mill are neither known for releasing bugged games nor for not providing support once they're out. The publisher probably always has their hand in decisions of this kind, but so far, I think things are handled really well here. (I was impressed that they released a schedule that shows when new material is released, actually.) I believe that this is one of the strong points of independent developers who are not owned by large corporates.

Bit of a stupid question: Who is going to publish CotN?

[EmperorJay]

Myelin Media (http://www.myelinmedia.com)

They look promising, they don't seem the type to rush games.

[Cironir]

I hadn't heard of Myelin Media before, but I'm familiar with Gene Mauro (with his name, that is) and Dotted Line Entertainment. This is good news! :)

[Keith]

Myelin Media (http://www.myelinmedia.com/)

They look promising, they don't seem the type to rush games.
Until they establish a track record that is....

[Eddy]

Ugh. A website completely done in Flash. We are not amused.

[EmperorJay]

Until they establish a track record that is....
True, but for now, what they promise sounds good.

[ZaPPPa]

I promise you world peace.. Sounds good doesn't it? ;)

I have been disappointed in a lot of games that sounded extremely good. A lot of times the design 'gimmick' sounds good and sometimes it actually works. Unfortunately what happens more often is that a design 'gimmick' sounds good, but it just doesn't work when executed. Or the software is of such poor quality that it kills potentially great game.

One game with an idea that looked great on paper (IMO) that didn't work at all was 'Republic'. In that case it was probably a combination of an idea that just didn't work and poor overall quality.

CotN sounds good on paper and since this is more or less an evolution of a well defined system, I have a very good feeling about this game.

[Cironir]

I agree, there have been a number of disappointments lately, but I too feel fairly good about CotN. It's been in development for a while, the team is solid, the reputation of the developers is superb, any information voiced in interviews and forum messages sound like a lot of thought went into the design, and the screenshots seem quite attractive to me. So, all in all, I really anticipate CotN (otherwise I'd not check the boards here daily :)).

[Bugsy]

Whoa! I got a chick, erm I mean a mature woman to agree with me!

So hey baby, wanna go out with a really cool dude?

Ahem.

What I mean to say is that women are an overlooked part of gaming and it really is a shame because from the game maker's view, they are a good half of the market. I just don't understand why the programmers aren't trying to appeal to women since there is a huge untapped market there.
LOL!! Sorry hun, but my hubby wouldn't like us going out, I'm afraid ;)

I think this team of developers do take women into consideration when making them. I've been an avid gamer my entire life, and many games don't, it's true, but the city building genre includes many aspects I have found most women enjoy. I'm not super into fashion and such like some women are, so those aspects to a game don't concern me usually. (The Sims is good for them, since they can play Martha and really design their own interior and fashion looks with the editors for it)

What really makes or breaks a game for me, is details. I love to find lots of small details in a game, little things that change from time to time, to keep it interesting the entire time you play. For example, in Zeus' expansion, Poseidon, the new decorative statues and such. I noticed new ones when I began the very first scenario, and then, as I have progressed further into it (I only recently got Poseidon), I have noticed even more becomes available. That keeps it interesting, makes you want to see what you get next--the statues the gods awarded you with were also just the coolest thing to me.

I love games where not all is immediately available, you have to earn things, it sets goals and keeps the game more competitive on many levels instead of just a high score, or how many you've killed, etc. Sim City (through Sim City 3000, I have not played beyond that version) lacked that, and that is why it has never been able to capture my attention and keep me playing it over and over like I have the Impressions games. The replayability of the Impressions games is amazing for me, I am the beat it and never play it again type. Even now, I have installed currently Ceasar III, Pharaoh, Cleopatra, and Zeus with Poseidon. That is rare for me. :)

[Bugsy]

Okay, okay, I know that one. :)

Several problems there.

1. The general impression is that women like all things girly. But programmers are men for the most part. So, it just doesn't appeal to them to program "girly games".


NOOOOOOOOOOO No girly stuff!! I am one of the least girly ladies I know. I'm not into pink, not into lots of frills and lace and crap.

To appeal to me, have detail, have substance, have replayability. Have proper spelling for the god's sake! I despise getting a game that has poor english and poor spelling in it, many of the old Nintendo games were like that, I know, because they were translated. You think they couldn't pay a secretary to proof it?? LOL

Have great graphics WITH substance to the game. Perfect example of great graphics, lack of substance, the Myst series. Love the graphics and storyline of the game. The puzzles were too few and far between, and once you figured them out, replayability is nil. Have random variations to the puzzles if you're only going to have a few. Dreamcatcher is a good example of great graphics, excellent substance.

For city building, as always, the Impressions Games were top of the line to me. I've played many types, like Sim city, Dungeon Keeper, Majesty, Warcraft, Black and White, Age of Empires, etc, and they still are top of the line, how the games should have been. I just purchased 1602AD last night. It's crashed like 4 times, I guess because it is older, the patch, I am not sure which one to download and use, it's been confusing. No help files in the game that I have found yet to tell you what the buildings are, what the question marks mean, and how to set up more than just the basics shown to you in the short tutorial. Zeus and Pharaoh had in-depth help files, that not only explained how to use the things in the game, but explained why they were important to life in those times--just reading all of the help files could keep you busy for hours! Caesar had interesting tidbits, especially the names of the NPCs. Those really cracked me up! It's the little things people notice after the first thrill of learning to play the new game, and really getting into it and playing. :)

[Bugsy]

As for making games for women, why? Many of us don't like women's magazines or anything supposedly designed for women. I have never in my life bought a women's magazine twice. I get Scientific American, or one of the PC mags or KMT or something actually intellectual and interesting... and how many women do you know who can pack a sword effectively or loose 19 arrows per minute accurately at a target 20 yards away, eh?

So don't patronize us gals, please. We don't need it! ;)
AMEN!! I also resent the comment about making the games for communication or chat. When I want chat, I come to a board like this, or go to pogo. When I want to play alone, I play PC games, or console games. I don't like to chat while concentrating on a game. I rarely play multi-player on any of the games I have that are capable of it. I just don't like it. :)

Do you do medieval role-playing? I was in a historically accurate medieval re-enactment group, we fought with live steel, not the ratan the SCA uses.

[Bugsy]

I'm not posting for points. Call me a front line correspondent. ;)

Also, do note that I haven't shared my views at all on what I think Tilted Mill is capable of or not. Someone said that the Tilted Mill people left early in the Lords of the Realms 3 development, so I do hold them in very high regard still. :p

Don't you mean "there are a few dev teams"...? I do think my "blanket statement" holds water, becuase it is often not up do the dev team, but the publisher to decide when a game is to be released (as you also imply). However, on the consoles, publishers first have to send their games to Sony or Nintendo for approval, and they do even more QA testing. There is no similar controlling body on the PC side (which is good for independant gaming, though).
Gee, with all that QA testing, you would *think* they would correct the improper spelling and grammar in those games. It is HIGHLY unprofessional as a company to have games on the market that do not spell even one word correctly, or have one typo. Even one error of that nature, in a game is too many, to me. It screams of a lack of QA, which is the opposite of what you said above. :) Also, for their QA testing, consider they are testing for ONE type of console, that all the parts and component are the exact same on, and if some have been updated, all will be based on the older model's compatibility. So you don't have the varying systems I mentioned in my post that computer games have to deal with. There is NO way to test it on EVERY conceivable system.

Perfect example. Myst III Exile. I bought it new off the shelf, I rarely do this, and never will again. I read the specs, I matched or bettered all of them. Got the game home, it wouldn't play with my graphics card. After spending $50 on the game, I had to spend another $50+ on a new graphics card, they were not going to be releasing a patch any time soon that fixed the problem for the card I had, and the store I got the game from wouldn't take it back, only exchange it for another copy of the same game. Console games do NOT have that kind of worry on their QA, and as such, cannot be even remotely compared to the QA a PC game goes through. The system like I said, is far to varied to ensure it will work for everyone. :)

[eobet]

Also, for their QA testing, consider they are testing for ONE type of console, that all the parts and component are the exact same on, and if some have been updated, all will be based on the older model's compatibility. So you don't have the varying systems I mentioned in my post that computer games have to deal with. There is NO way to test it on EVERY conceivable system.

I say again, nearly ALL patches for PC games are gameplay related, NOT technically related.

What you refer to is a myth that publishers have sold to unsuspecting customers.

[mouse]

My experience is that QA folks and beta testers are never happy with the amount of time available for debugging software including games :D No software or game will ever be perfect but hopefully the glitches left will be minor ;) It comes down to time is money so developers try to fix the big bugs and depending on time/money work their way through bugs until they hit the point where it becomes too expensive to fix the smallest bugs. Almost every change made to a program to fix a problem can create another problem that will then have to be fixed.

eobet is correct that very rarely are software problems hardware related and very few software companies will bother to patch for those issues. If the issue wasn't found during beta testing because the beta testing group didn't have enough variety in hardware then the customer is out of luck.

[vovan]

Well, "hardware" problems are still sometimes present in games, though in reality, they are more driver problems. For instance, I play games on a laptop. It's a toshiba, and has a pretty nice video card. Unfortunately, the video card is custom-tailored to the laptop, and toshiba doesn't care much for tech support, so they haven't released any new drivers since 2002. Therefore, all games that use OpenGL, don't start, because they can't detect support for a certain rendering feature (which the card supports, but the driver doesn't). That certainly limits the number of games I can play...

However, hoardware problems are really rare now, like people said. For one thing, people don't write their low-level rendering routines nowadays. They use either DirectX or OpenGL, which means that compatibility is so much better.

Also, I don't know how much game companies use this, but when I worked at this one company, when the product was close to completion, they sent it off to a specialized testing company, who ran it on a set of different systems. The cool part about it, is that that other company does nothing but testing. So, they spent a lot of money on the different hardware setups, and other testing tools, to make sure they test well. So most of the hardware conflicts were caught there then.

[Master Builder]

Tilted Mills seems to be doing a Great job in this game so far their posting enough Info for most people though some Sys Req would be nice and as far as hardware is conserned Have a wide range of Beta Testers as far as Pcs go. I've seen serveral games with Fan bases bigger than this colaspse nearly overnight because of hardware issues so that is a big problem. However in all my (tries to count)....(fails) who knowns how many games but i'm counting 55 atm games played this seems to be the best one coming out into market Unless Privateer 3 is going to apper soon CotN is going to be the best game out there.

Also Devs sould post problems on these forums under a (Trouble-shooting) forum the same problem could have been in another game and someone here could have a answer.

[EmperorJay]

Game Info including System Requirements (http://www.immortalcities.com/cotn/gameinfo/overview.php)

Minimum:

Pentium® III or Athlon® 800 MHz processor or higher
Windows® 98/2000/ME/XP operating system
128 MB of RAM (256 MB required for Windows® XP)
800 MB of uncompressed hard drive space

A 100% Windows® 98/2000/ME/XP-compatible computer system including:
DirectX® 9.0b
100% DirectX® 9-compliant true 16 bit sound card and drivers
100% DirectX® 9-compliant 32 MB video card and drivers
100% Windows® 98/2000/ME/XP -compatible mouse and drivers
100% Windows® 98/2000/ME/XP -compatible keyboard
100% Windows® 98/2000/ME/XP -compatible quad speed (600 K/sec sustained transfer rate) CD-ROM drive and drivers
Recommended:

Pentium® 4 or Athlon® 2.0 GHz processor
512 MB of RAM
64 MB video card will full Direct 9.0 support

[mouse]

Master Builder Impressions always provided a tech help forum after the game came out and I would guess that Tilted Mill would do the same thing :D They would address gamers problems with game both software and hardware.

[G-Force]

If I try to run settlers 2 on my computer it doesn't start because I don't have a mouse on my COM port :)

I guess that is 1 game I can't play again :(

G-Force

[eobet]

If you have the regular DOS version, try http://dosbox.sourceforge.net/ (it's slow, but it should work).

I could have sworn that it was Windows 95, though... it was so long ago I've played it (box is at parent's house). I can't even remember if I had the "Gold" or not, but perhaps that was the Windows 95 version?

[G-Force]

I have the dosbox, still no go. I've moved on ;)

And I got a great game to look forward to!

G-Force

[NeilV]

Why not buy a com mouse they are still available you can normally pick them up for around €10 or if you have a electronics store like Maplins you can get a PS2 to com adapter.

[Miut]

De[pends if they are in the US or not.. ;) But there is always ordering over the Internet..

I might have an old com port mouse if you want to wait a few days. Send me a Message on this board on the 14th when I will be back home (at my boyfriend's right now) and I can see if the removal firm haven't lost it.
I now use a cordless trackman marble Logoitech (superb for SPS games like UT). Push mouses filled with grot caused by 2 cats, a large furry dog and a large furry son and his mates constantly tracking thorugh the living room that was also my office space. I had to clean it out every day. :(

http://www.sff.net/people/Lisanne/Viking/images/miut.gif

[Eddy]

Glad to see another Logitech Marble user here.

My trackball has a tail (not wireless) that I've been using for ages. I love it.

[Miut]

My laptop one is tailed. ;) I just cannot stand the glide pads... They literally start moving before my finger touches them - which is I thin maybe due to the fact I carry a high static charge most of the time and zap folks across the room..

[Keith]

My laptop one is tailed. ;) I just cannot stand the glide pads... They literally start moving before my finger touches them - which is I thin maybe due to the fact I carry a high static charge most of the time and zap folks across the room..
When I was forced to use my wife's laptop while my old computer was down, I used to cover it with a piece of cardboard on the glidepad so touching it with my thumbs, which was the problem in my case, didn't have any effect.
http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/horus2.gif
Keith Heitmann (mailto:dheitm8612@aol.com)
Listen to the music of the CityBuilders while online:
Caesar III Music Player (http://www.geocities.com/kheitmann1/C3Player.htm)•Pharaoh Music Jukebox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/pharaoh.htm)•Zeus Music Jukebox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/Zeus.htm)•Emperor's Music Box (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/erotmk.htm)
(Game installation required.)

[Miut]

Good idea! I have tried to Disable it in the Hardware, but no joy. Mine is a Sony Vaia and what really drove me mad before installing a regular copy of XP on it was the Idiot Sony version that refused to allow me to disable the utterly useless unless you own another Sony device like camera or mp3 player - the Sony memory stick, and the Jog Dial which always played havoc with my settings as you can't avoid touching it when you open the case lid. That at least is safely not installed at all! Still sits there like some dinosaur, though..

[eobet]

Erm... hasn't this thread gone a bit off-topic now?

[Miut]

True. :) But it is still Alive... ;) and mouse isssues affect us all - with due apologies to our Resident Mouse. ;)

[Bradius]

All that clicking in my earlier days left me with a mild case of carpal tunnel. My glide pad really works great for me. No more sore wrists. I know most people hate it, but hours on a mouse will not work for me anymore. When I got a new computer a while back, I tried to find a new touch pad, and finally had to order it from an on-line store. It seems like no one else buys them anymore. I can tell I am in a definite minority in this case. Of course no one likes to mess with my computer since there is no mouse hooked up to it. :D