The 3D World

[Keith]

Is this game going to be played entirely in 3D or are we going to only see 3D when we "zoom-in" on the city from some other view? I don't think that's been made clear.

The ablitity to "walkthrough" a city I've built is going to be a treat, but such a close-in view might make it difficult to layout my city on the map.
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[Ineti]

Good question. Some of the screenshots are high "Ra POV" shots, that show just a few walkers and much of the city layout. Some are on the street shots.

I can't imagine what the hardware requirements would be if the game ran 3d all the time with all the walkers walking all the time, so my guess is that it's static on the long shots but animated as you get closer in, but that's nothing more than a guess. The screenshots don't really help.

[Reed]

Fear not, it's totally 3D with a fully controllable camera. Meaning, it doesn't have preset zoom levels that you have to choose. It's completely up to you.

[EmperorJay]

Now that's a clear statement :D . Thank you for the answer, I'm very happy with such a system, as long as I'm able to zoom out far enough to get a good overview (which seems to be the case according to the screenshots).

[Ineti]

Fear not, it's totally 3D with a fully controllable camera.

Outstanding. I can't wait to see the screenshots we players will come up with. :)

[Keith]

Fear not, it's totally 3D with a fully controllable camera. Meaning, it doesn't have preset zoom levels that you have to choose. It's completely up to you.That's good to hear.

Is this game going to be tempermental when I want/need to ALT+TAB to my desktop like some of the DirectX releases out there?

In some games that use DirectX if you ALT+TAB out and come back the screen remains blank and you have to End Task the game and restart it.
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[Lannes]

Fear not, it's totally 3D with a fully controllable camera. Meaning, it doesn't have preset zoom levels that you have to choose. It's completely up to you.

To me the interviews suggest that there will be a separation between an "actual world" (the one you can walk around in, listen to people etc) and a "something" (map,office?) where you do the planning and decisions making. I'm probably totally wrong though.......right? :confused:

Lannes

[G-Force]

Would we be able to literally controll our Pharaoh character and walk him through the city? If so, would the people bow? They meet a god every day you know ;)

G-Force

[Josh]

I can't imagine what the hardware requirements would be if the game ran 3d

So it wont be quite as PC friendly as the 2D city builders, I think its time that strategy games started pressing the envelope of 3D and system requirements, im sick of all the shoot-em-ups getting all the glitz, I want a strategy game thats more immersive and uses all the computer I payed for. (thats why I enjoyed the newest railroad tycoon so much, its 3D its not that advanced, but still when the moon reflects over the water at just the right angle its very beautifull.

Most every game nowdays uses 3D if you can run any of them it should be able to run this, its not like your using max payne inverse kinisthetics or whatever; your just giving a sence of depth to your city, more like its a real model city. it looks great already!

[Tony Leier]

Outstanding. I can't wait to see the screenshots we players will come up with. :)

We make a lot of screenshots here at Tilted Mill, we often comment ourselves on just how cool some of the screenshots are. I think half of QA is using a screenshot as their desktop wallpaper.

It's pretty common for me to be working around in the game at something, and suddenly come upon some really cool screenshot or animation or situation, and just have to stop for a bit and enjoy it.

BTW, every screenshot we've released is just us playing the game and moving the camera and zoom around, the same sort of controls that you'll have.

Oh, and as cool as the screenshots are, the screenshots don't quite do the in game 3D environment justice. :D

[Ineti]

Fantastic, Tony. I think I'd have my office or cubicle covered from top to bottom in nifty screenshots of one thing or another. Great to hear you're having fun. Give us a close-up of some temple wall art sometime, willya? :D

[Manni]

Sounds all very exiting!

Apart from the present screenshots...............will there be a demo out soon??

Manni

[Pecunia]

will there be a demo out soon??
Hi Manni, good to see you here too :)

My guess is that a demo will come out a week or two before the game itself... so we're in for a long wait ;)

[klingon9]

My guess is that a demo will come out a week or two before the game itself... so we're in for a long wait ;)


But I hate waiting... but i think we will only get a demo a few weeks before the game if we get one at all. Guess i will have to spend my time talking to all of you while i wait.

[Pecunia]

Guess i will have to spend my time talking to all of you while i wait.
That's just what we are all here for, isn't it? ;)

[Caesar Alan]

*wonders if it would be excessive to wallpaper his room with a montage of CotN screenshots*

Nope, sounds reasonable to me :D

[Celebithil Dae]

I would, but i dont ahve enough paper to print enought o cover the walls... Pity

[Jacquou Le]

Hehe, you guys already know me :p

I wish the 3D in CotN is similar to the game A Tale in the Desert or Ground Control.

[Keith]

Here's hoping that with the introduction of 3D we'll see some more realistic looking map terrains to build upon. While we've always had "positive elevation" terrain in the game since Caesar III, we never had "negative elevation" terrain to build on or around like river or dry valleys. We had cliffs introduced in Cleopatra, but we could not build on top of them. The tombs of Cleopatra basically just ground level structures beneath the cliff graphics.
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[EmperorJay]

The screenshots certainly seem to suggest this. Wheter the land away from the river is positive elevation or the land close the river is negative elevation is unknown to me, but the land near the river is lower than the land further away.

[eobet]

Fear not, it's totally 3D with a fully controllable camera. Meaning, it doesn't have preset zoom levels that you have to choose. It's completely up to you.

Hello!

I might be odd (because I actually don't like 3D), but I see what you just said as a negative thing.

I believe that it is common knowledge that the two most negative aspects of 3D gameplay is camera control and getting stuck in corners.

I wonder, would you consider a "traditional" camera view? Ie, a set, 45 degree, isometric camera, that throws away the perspective matrix calculations?

I can make an example of what I mean in Maya, if you want, but essentially, it would make your 3D game look just like the old thing once employed.

I believe it would make a lot of older players, and people not used to 3D, more comfortable to only have to think in "2D" about the game.

[EmperorJay]

But the point is that the camera doesn't move by itself. Only you can move it.

If you prefer the bird eye view from the previous games, just move your camera to a point high above the city and leave it there. If you don't want to, you don't need to get up close with your citizens.

I believe that it is common knowledge that the two most negative aspects of 3D gameplay is camera control and getting stuck in corners.
Getting stuck at corners is no problem at all, just move the camera a bit to the left or right. This is no shooters or adventure in which you die because you couldn't look around the corner. And bad camera control is quickly becoming a thing from the past, more and more games do have a convenient control system. I'm confident Tilted Mill can achieve the same.

If I may suggest a system that would be perfect of a citybuilding game.

Press key X to make your mouse change the camera. Press key X again to lock the camera.

When in camera mode, move the mouse to the left or right to rotate and move the mouse up and down to go up and down. Press the left mouse button to zoom in and the right mouse button to zoom out.

If you lock the camera in a good position, the mouse is then used to actually move the camera around.

[Keith]

I don't think anyone will have a problem getting used to the new 3D look of things. I've played all the old games with 2D views and have no fear of what 3D may look like.
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[eobet]

Show me one 3D game where the view controls are as easy/informative* as in a 2D game.

I bet you can't.

(Well, I actually know one game... it was a 3D Voxel RPG, with did as I suggested: It threw away the perspective calculations in order to present its 3D world in a 2D fashion... can't remember the name, though. It was an obscure title.)

* Isometric views are often created so that things can't be hidden behind objects, or so that all objects are always visible. Unless you are looking straight down in 3D, this won't happen.

[EmperorJay]

I never said 3D was better than 2D, because that's subjective. :)

And it depends on so many factors. A first person game never has any camera problems, for example. Any invisible objects in first person games are supposed to be hidden.

I think I can actually show you a game where 3D is to be prefered over 2D, it's a whole genre. Racing games.

I still remember playing those 2D, top view rally games on my Gameboy. You could never see what was coming. Any average 3D game may suffer from gameplay problems (bad car behaviour) but I never had any problems with the camera.

But it's no big deal really. Some, like you, prefer 2D. Others prefer 3D. I don't mind, it all depends on the genre of the game and in this game, the camera is relatively irrelevant. The success of my mission does not depend on the camera, so I won't be bothered if it has a few problems here and there, as long as I can keep a good overview of my city.

[eobet]

I never said 3D was better than 2D, because that's subjective. :)That is also what I said.

I think I can actually show you a game where 3D is to be prefered over 2D, it's a whole genre. Racing games.That is, however, not what I asked for.

I asked for a game which as simple controls in 3D as a game in 2D.

I even think that it is, by definition, impossible, since in 3D, you have a third axis of control to think about (2D, only x and y, of course).

Here is the Maya example I mentioned:

[eobet]

Erm... perhaps an explanation is required :)

The grey blocks are supposed to be houses, and the grid are streets.

In the above half, full perspective, and totally free camera is employed. You can move in all three dimensions. The disadvantage with this (besides the added control complexity) is that objects in the distance get smaller.

The bottom half is still 3D (it is the same scene), but rendered without perspective. You can now only move in 2D, and all objects are the same size, just like in the classic Pharaoh game.

I guess we can draw a parallel to architects: To visualize something, you make a sketch (though even they sometimes use, so called, "two point perspective"). However, when you are going to actually build the thing, you use a plan. The 3D view is ineffective for such a thing, hence, we switch to 2D.

Does anyone remember the disaster that was The Republic: Revolution? They boasted about their 3D engine, with "unlimited polygons" and whatnot. However, in the end, all the 3D engine ended up being, was eye candy, as in order to become productive in the game, you had to work in the 2D mode (which was actually just a plain map, I think).

[EmperorJay]

I understand what you mean (now), but I still don't foresee any problems with the 3D engine myself.

[Jayhawk]

Show me one 3D game where the view controls are as easy/informative* as in a 2D game.
I think Spellforce comes a long way in that direction. It allows you a traditional RTS view and a Third Person Persective (over the shoulder) view when you zoom on the main character.

[mouse]

To address the issue you raised about older people, as an older person(63years old) I'm looking forward to 3D in CotN :D We old folks aren't sticks in mud we try what for us is new things ;)

[Rnett]

Most of my games are 2D, but I'm looking forward to 3D as well. ;)

[Azeem]

I suppose I'm a stick in the mud then. :D I'm usually much more in favor of 2D. ;)

[Cironir]

Oy, it's a 2D vs 3D argument! I seem to be drawn to them. ;)

Personally, I think it's a bit of a generalization to say that 3D games always have worse interfaces than 2D games, and that they are always more confusing or harder to use. 2D does allow for more "boardgame" type of interface, but you can do more with 3D, such as seamless zooming, using an unlocked camera and probably save some production time (money). A well-done 3D environment can (not necessary does) "feel" much more alive and "whole". 2D art tends to be "cuter", and more detailed, but we are no longer in the mid nineties when 3D graphics always looked sterile, impersonal and unfriendly.

It all depends on how the game/interface is designed. Judging by what I've seen so far, I'm not worried (and I'm saying this as someone who generally does prefer pixelart). A "modern looking" game may also appeal to players who are not familiar with this genre, so lots of eye candy may attract a broader audience, not just the hardcore building fans. As long as depth and gameplay don't take a backseat, I'm looking forward to a new experience. :)

[eobet]

3D vs. 2D graphics seems useless to debate in this case, since we've already seen screenshots.

However, I'd still like to hear if a developer has any comments regarding what I wrote about 2D control methods and perspective in my posts above.

[Nero Would]

One improvement I really wanted for the display in the old city-builders was the ability to zoom in and out (more than was allowed just by changing screen resolutions). Now, thanks to the 3-D engine, we will have that ability. That alone will be enough for me to welcome the change (provided the controls are simple enough).

[Jayhawk]

Just think of all the lovely screenshots we'll be able to take :cool:

[EmperorJay]

Anyone in for a monthly screenshot contest? :p

[eobet]

Just think of all the lovely screenshots we'll be able to take :cool:

Will we? I personally find most of the buildings in Pharaoh to be works of art! (Zeus was nice too, but Emperor smelled too much of pre-rendered CG).

See, some of you forgot an important thing: No matter how beautifully detailed a 2D game is, it nearly always runs the same. However, if you try to increase the detail in a 3D game, it immediately requires a more powerful computer.

I mentioned in another thread how the only games company who managed to retain their 2D style when going 3D was Blizzard. Their games aren't as technically impressive, nor have as many polygons, but they have absolutely beautiful textures, probably made by the same 2D artists as in their previous games.

I believe that, at least in its current build, Children of the Nile neglects this.

Case point:

http://www.immortalcities.com/cotn/images/ss/ss-121.jpg

Look at that blotty mess in the square jar... is that supposed to be flowers? Did egyptians have square jars, by the way?

http://www.immortalcities.com/cotn/images/ss/ss-130.jpg

That green blur under the balcony railing on the right... I can't even begin to guess what it is supposed to be.

If Tilted Mill wants players to be able to make lovely screenshots with this new free moving camera thingy, they'd better not forget their 2D! I think too many developers get hung up on polygons and forget the importance of textures.

http://www.immortalcities.com/cotn/images/ss/ss-125.jpg

Look at the stairs on the bottom left here. Plain, boring. A good 2D artist would have made that much more intersting. Add some weathering from dust and sand, and old storm that has blown in from the desert. Add some cracks, where someone once dropped something heavy. Add mud and dirt in the middle, so that you can see that someone lives there, and uses it a lot.

Let the textures tell a story!

I'm sorry for the rant, but I've said it before, and I will say it again: I am currently not impressed at all by the graphics of Children of the Nile. It looks like an aged, cheap first attempt at 3D, and not the absolute minute detail and quality of the old city building series.

[EmperorJay]

The game is around a half year away from release. Some screenshots may already be another half year old.

This screenshot (http://www.immortalcities.com/cotn/images/ss/ss-117.jpg)

Take a look at the pilars. They are not round, I agree, but screenshots are always uglier than a moving game. If you are playing you won't easily notice that they're not exactly round.

The square jar. Is it necessary for the game? Does the game run without it? No, it's not necessary and yes the game does run without it. So it doesn't get top priority. They make the jar square to be able to put it in without spending too much time on it and enhancing it will only be done after the necessary things are done.

You seem to be pretty stuck to your view that 2D is good and 3D is bad. I admit to be biased towards 3D and therefore may neglect certain short comings of the engine. But like I said: don't like it, don't buy it. :) I'm happy with the textures I've seen and I'm quite sure they will improve still. :)

[eobet]

Then don't buy it :cool: .

Don't be a fanboy, pleeease, don't! :(

That is such an unecessary comment, and adds absolutely nothing to this thread.

I have not said one word about gameplay in that post, not one! I don't base my buying decisions on graphics and I didn't even hint at whether I would buy it or not.

I replied in response to someone saying that he thought he could take pretty screenshots.

If everyone would say to Tilted Mill that everything they did was lovely, there would be little reason for them to strive to become better, except if they were making the game for themselves, which they are not. They are making the game to please the publishers first, and the customers second (that is not etched in stone, nor isolated, but that is the real priority for most gaming companies today).

I am deeply disappointed in seeing such a comment in what I thought was a creative exchange of thoughts and ideas. :(

Now back to the topic, please:

Art should tell a story! Does anyone else have tips on how to improve the graphics, or what they would like to be able to capture in their screenshots?

[EmperorJay]

I apologize, it was not ment offensive at all! (I've edited my post) You just sound so negative! And I'm not a fanboy at all, I've criticized the game as well but on the subject of the graphics, I think you're judging the game way too hard.

One mustn't be fooled by screenshots. 99% of the time, screenshots don't give a game the credit it deserves.

I don't feel the art should change. It's fine. For example:

This screenshot (http://home.tiscali.nl/ancientcitybuilding/images/screenshots/gs_screenshot_30.jpg)

This screenshot (http://home.tiscali.nl/ancientcitybuilding/images/screenshots/tm_screenshot_15.jpg)

This screenshot (http://home.tiscali.nl/ancientcitybuilding/images/screenshots/gs_screenshot_33.jpg)

In the last screenshot, in the middle, notice that little pilar? It has cracks on it. So they're not forgetting about such little things at all.

In my opinion, the art should be not be judged until we've seen the final version. The idea behind the game was that the player should feel like they are ruling a real and living city. I suppose they don't forget about the little things that make a city come to life then! So, screenshots are not enough to base an opinion for me. Because, like I said, some of the screenshots may be a year old by the time the game is released.

[eobet]

Hmm, I must confess that I have gotten the reply that I sound negative on more than one occasion. Must be because English is not my native tounge, but I was actually merely trying to make suggestions.

Anyway, I'm going to make a new thread now, especially about suggestions!

I still do hope that some developer will pop in here and comment the camera controlling.

[Ken Parker]

They are making the game to please the publishers first, and the customers second (that is not etched in stone, nor isolated, but that is the real priority for most gaming companies today).I don't understand this comment. What publishers do you think we're trying to please? We would like CotN to sell a lot of copies, which is how one pleases one's publisher. We've been in the biz long enough to know that customers are (by definition!) the people who buy it. Our focus is on gamers.

BTW, it is entirely appropriate to post constructive criticism in our forums. As much as we would all love to bask in adulation all the time, that would make for boring reading. :)

[eobet]

I don't understand this comment. What publishers do you think we're trying to please? We would like CotN to sell a lot of copies, which is how one pleases one's publisher. We've been in the biz long enough to know that customers are (by definition!) the people who buy it. Our focus is on gamers.

BTW, it is entirely appropriate to post constructive criticism in our forums. As much as we would all love to bask in adulation all the time, that would make for boring reading. :)

Sorry, me not being an English native speaker again, perhaps confused things.

I meant that pleasing the publisher and customer are not two isolated things, but dependant on each other. However, no matter how great a game you have, if a publisher doesn't like it, it will never hit the market.

(Unless you self publish, like famous UFO/X-com designer Julian Gollop has done, with his Laser Squadron Nemesis.)

[Jayhawk]

We would like CotN to sell a lot of copies, which is how one pleases one's publisher.
I really hope you will not fall foul of what I've seen happen to other games/companies, where the publisher merely seems interested in creating enough hype to sell a(n incomplete) product that won't ever be supported just because it was released too soon and people had too many problems with it to make it a best seller.

Sadly I've seen enough situations where this happened against the wishes of hthe developers. :(

[tobing]

The publisher is myelin, a rather small company (by now), and they are currently publishing CotN only. So this should not be an issue, like it was with other publishers at other occasions.

So let's hope that CotN will we the success we all want it to be, such that Tilted Mill can continue to produce City Building Games!