Some questions.

[neferamon]

Hi.
I am very new to this game and I am wondering about some things:

1. Is the player able to rotate buildings?

2. Are we able to see the pharaoh and the queen and will we be able to control them?

3. Will we see that the nile goes over its banks during the yearly flood?

4. Will there be tempeles of eternity like Ramesseum?

5. Will there be a valley of the queens like there is a valley of the kings?

6. If the population number is 10'000, will there then be 10'000 people walking in the streets (10'000 people that you can see)?

7. Will a pyramid be built stone for stone?

8. When stones are delivered from a quarry will there be a hole where the stone was?

I also have some suggestions for the game:

I think that it would be much more fun for the player, if the player could put together its own tempels and palaces from parts rather than put down a finished one, that way the player will be more creative.

And I also think that there should be more differenses among houses so that there will be a more beautiful city picture.

I think that the sphinx that is pictured in some of the screenshoots are terrible. The head is way to big or the body to small.

I would be nice if there where bigger variation among people aswell because there ain't so many people wearing same clothes.

So a little advise: improve the graffic in the game, so that when we zoom in we see flower and not dots, and so that the glory of egypt is reflected in the city picture and in its monuments and buildings :D

I hope that you will answer some of my questions. :)
Best regards Neferamon

[Keith]

A good place to start is at the official website:

http://www.immortalcities.com/cotn/

Read the three preview links mentioned in this thread:

http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133

Siince the game will be 3D you may possibly rotate buildings. As for much of the rest of your questoins, there is a lot that we just haven't been told yet.

Some your ideas have probably been discussed in older threads. Browse through them and see what the devs had to say.
http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/horus2.gif
Keith Heitmann (mailto:dheitm8612@aol.com)
Listen to the music of the CityBuilders while online:
Caesar III Music Player (http://www.geocities.com/kheitmann1/C3Player.htm)•Pharaoh Music Jukebox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/pharaoh.htm)•Zeus Music Jukebox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/Zeus.htm)•Emperor's Music Box (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/erotmk.htm)
(Game installation required.)

[Keith]

I should also mention that the images and graphics you see now are still in a state of change. So don't judge the game too harshly on what you see at the moment.
http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/horus2.gif
Keith Heitmann (mailto:dheitm8612@aol.com)
Listen to the music of the CityBuilders while online:
Caesar III Music Player (http://www.geocities.com/kheitmann1/C3Player.htm)•Pharaoh Music Jukebox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/pharaoh.htm)•Zeus Music Jukebox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/Zeus.htm)•Emperor's Music Box (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/erotmk.htm)
(Game installation required.)

[neferamon]

sorry if I where harsh. I think the game looks brilliant, but I isn't bad wanting it to be even better. :o

[Keith]

sorry if I where harsh. I think the game looks brilliant, but I isn't bad wanting it to be even better. :o
I didn't think you were being harsh...just enthusiastic! :D

The problem is that we don't have all the details yet. We get something new every now and then from a preview on a game mag website, a interview, a post from the devs here, or on the official website.

Just keep hanging around and all will be made clear in time.
http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/horus2.gif
Keith Heitmann (mailto:dheitm8612@aol.com)
Listen to the music of the CityBuilders while online:
Caesar III Music Player (http://www.geocities.com/kheitmann1/C3Player.htm)•Pharaoh Music Jukebox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/pharaoh.htm)•Zeus Music Jukebox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/Zeus.htm)•Emperor's Music Box (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/erotmk.htm)
(Game installation required.)

[eobet]

I personally hope that you can't rotate buildings, or that buildings are rotated automatically (either by connecting to the nearest road, or say, 1 rotation per second).

There's already the added complexity of moving a 3D camera, and if you are going to add complexity by rotating buildings as well, I fear that you will spend more time actually trying to build something, than spending time analyzing what and where to build instead.

[NeilV]

I quite like rotating buildings I am currently playing Anno 1503 and you need to rotate buildings so the they connect to a path or just to get them to fit in to a gap it is also nice in Anno to have entry points on the buildings so you can set up a single path to that it helps to shorten workers paths to places that would be a nice addition.

[eobet]

Anno is 2D, not 3D. You always have the same view in Anno; an isometric, perfecly balanced overview, and you know exactly where the grid is. You don't have to tweak your camera settings to see where to position anything, and you don't have to zoom out to see the big perspective.

You will have to battle all this in Children of the Nile.

[EmperorJay]

Actually, rotating doesn't have to be a problem at all. If you would only be able to rotate the building 90 degrees there's no problem. This is how it worked in Theme Park World (which is 3D too) and I never had any problems.

[Eddy]

Speaking of a grid, will there be an option to have discreet gridlines on the map to help those of us who are fussy about placement?

[eobet]

Hopefully, buildings will snap, so there will be no need for a visible grid.

I tried a Theme Park 3D demo, and if I remember correctly, the camera was fixed in that game, just like in a 2D game. If you wanted to go into first person mode, you had to either get onto a ride, or view through the eyes of a park visitor. A nifty system, imo.

[Cironir]

I'm one of those players who are fairly happy with medicore graphics, as long as the gameplay is nicely designed, the game offers depth, and the title has a replay value. In fact, I actually prefer graphics that do not require the latest and most powerful video cards, because this means that more people can play the game (I do have a somewhat high-end machine, but still, plenty of my friends do not). That said, I thought many of the screenshots were gorgeous.

[Azeem]

I found the graphics to be absolutely gorgeous as well, especially the screenshot of the Nile at sunset. I suppose I'm too easily satisfied. :)

Gameplay should come first. Graphics come last. ;)

[eobet]

Gameplay should come first. Graphics come last. ;)

Chris Sawyer has said the following:

"I think the fun in both Transport Tycoon and RollerCoaster Tycoon is 50 percent in the construction process and 50 percent in world-watching."

I think it is absolutely true. Normally, I don't care about graphics either, but this is not a normal game (weight in building games vs. all other genres, and you'll get a very small percentage).

As noted in the "true victory" thread, some people judge that when they can just sit back and watch the city. I have already noted that 3D graphics age much faster than 2D graphics, and nobody said otherwise, so just imagine what will happen in five years time what will happen if you booth Children of the Nile again.

I can still boot Pharaoh and say that it's graphics are great. Heck, I can still boot Eye of the Beholder 2 and say that its graphics are great (and still do, btw, since I haven't beaten it yet). But for example, Dungeon Keeper 2, or Battlezone 2, from the same year as Pharaoh, looks very, very primitive today, and isn't very playable because of that.

I believe this is because 3D graphics doesn't capture the imagination as 2D graphics does. As I said before: Don't paint a moment, paint a lifetime, and that is very difficult to do with 3D.

[Keith]

I've only played the Rollercoaster Tycoon demos and a lot of the fun is actually building your own custom rides, particularly the rollercoaster type rides. It is fun just sit back and build your park and watch the people and gauge the popularity of rides and decorate your park with trees, benches, lights, paths, tunnels, etc.

When I load Jurassic Park: Operation Genesis (http://www.jpthegame.com/), I will usually create a island and populate it with various species of dinosaurs from the gallimimous to t-rex and just let them roam and interact while I observe. Other times time I'll actually play the "game" and buid a park and observe the visitors as the move around the park. I've already altered the files so I can produce more dinos than originally allowed by the game, so my parks and natural island can have very large populations. Demo here (ftp://ftp.universalinteractive.com/pub/ui/jurassic_park/demos/ui_jpgenesis_demo.exe).

Simple observation is a major part of these types of games. It is very satisfying to sit back and just watch them run. It sounds like CotN is going to provide us with ample time to do just that.
http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/horus2.gif
Keith Heitmann (http://mailto:dheitm8612@aol.com/)
Listen to the music of the CityBuilders while online:
Caesar III Music Player (http://www.geocities.com/kheitmann1/C3Player.htm)•Pharaoh Music Jukebox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/pharaoh.htm)•Zeus Music Jukebox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/Zeus.htm)•Emperor's Music Box (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/erotmk.htm)
(Game installation required.)

[NeilV]

Dungeon Keeper 2, or Battlezone 2, from the same year as Pharaoh, looks very, very primitive today, and isn't very playable because of that.

I believe this is because 3D graphics doesn't capture the imagination as 2D graphics does. As I said before: Don't paint a moment, paint a lifetime, and that is very difficult to do with 3D.

I think the graphics v game play is one of those arguments that you will either be on one side or another. Games need to look nice but they need to play better to keep me interested I have a collection of over 400 pc games going back over several years and I still play most of them at some stage or another so some of them look very dated now but that doesn’t stop me from playing them. But at the same time I can under stand when after playing the latest and greatest game older ones can look dated I suppose its all down to the individual.

[eobet]

I think the graphics v game play is one of those arguments that you will either be on one side or another. Games need to look nice but they need to play better to keep me interested I have a collection of over 400 pc games going back over several years and I still play most of them at some stage or another so some of them look very dated now but that doesn’t stop me from playing them. But at the same time I can under stand when after playing the latest and greatest game older ones can look dated I suppose its all down to the individual.

You cut out the part where I state that I still play Eye of the Beholder 2, and I stated in another post that I am also currently re-playing Ultima 4 - 6. If you have those in your collection, you know what their graphics look like. But my point here was that 3D ages faster and is not as expressive as 2D. The graphics vs. gameplay was addressed above, and I think that Chris Sawyer comment should weight quite heavily in this genre (ie. I think it is genre based, as a chess game doesn't need much graphics, for example).

PS. I hope you mean actually store bought, boxed games. ;) My boxed collection is around 200, but that includes games from Commodore 64, Atari 130XE and Atari 1040STE (in addition to PC). I sadly sold both my Atari VCS and Mattell Intellivison during a stupid period in the 80s, otherwise I would probably have had around 300 games.

[Cironir]

My boxed collection is around 200, but that includes games from Commodore 64, Atari 130XE and Atari 1040STE (in addition to PC). I sadly sold both my Atari VCS and Mattell Intellivison during a stupid period in the 80s, otherwise I would probably have had around 300 games.

I still have my Atari 2600 games, though only about thirty of them (and Pitfall is the one I'm the most fond of). I didn't have much of in income in the early eighties, so that's all I could afford. And hey, I loved the Atari ST series! I had a 520STM in 1985 (or 1986?) and remained loyal to Atari computers until about 1992, when I really had to get into the PC market (worked for a publisher of a German ST magazine at the time and it had become obvious that IBM compatibles were the future). It would take me two or three years before I stopped whining about how more advanced TOS/GEM was compared to Windows. ;) But I think this is offline here ...

[NeilV]

I am sure every one has old favourites they still play I think 3D games age faster because of the Graphic card manufactures who are all trying to get one over the other and bring out new cards every 2 or 3 months and they seam to be involved a lot more in development of the games.

But I also thing some times the game has something to do with it if you really like the game it stays timeless.

Yes they are store brought boxed I can add about another 60 to that with older system games (mega drive etc) my oldest games are for my spectrum 128 which I still have boxed and stored away. didn’t keep anything before that as I would part x them.

[Tony Leier]

I'll answer what I can. We're still working and polishing, so some answers will be vague- you know the drill.

1. Is the player able to rotate buildings?
** Sure.

2. Are we able to see the pharaoh and the queen and will we be able to control them?
** There is a royal family that appears in the game. Details not final yet though.

3. Will we see that the nile goes over its banks during the yearly flood?
** Yep

4. Will there be tempeles of eternity like Ramesseum?
** There are quite a few monuments and big buildings to build.

5. Will there be a valley of the queens like there is a valley of the kings?
** there can be, but it's one of those little details that can come or go easily.

6. If the population number is 10'000, will there then be 10'000 people walking in the streets (10'000 people that you can see)?
** Theoretically, yes. 10 thousand is a bit much for any computer to display, but I can answer in the spirit of the question. The city is filled with individual people.

7. Will a pyramid be built stone for stone?
** Still balancing that

8. When stones are delivered from a quarry will there be a hole where the stone was?
** Yep

[Jayhawk]

Thanks Tony.

:: makes notes ::

[neferamon]

Thanks Tony, That helped me a lot.

[EmperorJay]

Thanks Tony, for all the posts today! :)

[eobet]

Yes, thank you for taking time to post! It was interesting to read...

Why does it seem to be uncertain whether a pyramid is built stone for stone or not? How else can you build it? It was really educational to watch the process in Pharaoh. You got a sense about how long it actually took. Though, historically, I think many, many more people were used, and also, wasn't the death toll quite high?

[EmperorJay]

I think what Tony Leier means is that it uncertain if it will be literally block by block or that it will be build 4 blocks at a time or 10 or 200.

You can't make the labourers run faster (that would look silly) or carry more (that would look silly too) so the only solution is to speed up the monument construction by increasing the number of blocks that is added graphically with each load.

[eobet]

Well, the old game only had a few people transporting blocks, didn't they?

I don't think that's realistic... shouldn't there be a constant stream of people toiling away every day of the year?

If there was, and many people died in the process, then it would create an added difficulty element in the game, wouldn't it?

(And yes, that's a good thing, imo!)

[Tony Leier]

I think what Tony Leier means is that it uncertain if it will be literally block by block or that it will be build 4 blocks at a time or 10 or 200.

You can't make the labourers run faster (that would look silly) or carry more (that would look silly too) so the only solution is to speed up the monument construction by increasing the number of blocks that is added graphically with each load.
Yes, that's it. There is a steady, everyday stream of people and stone going to the pyramid. But showing a few million individual blocks move might take a few weeks, hence the block multiplication.

[Jayl]

Not sure if this exact detail has been covered or what, but when the sled pulling the stones go up the ramp[s], or however the pyramid is being built up in the game, will there be a lot of people pulling the stones?

In history there was at least 100 men pulling each stone, I know that is about unrealistic for the game. In Pharaoh there was 6 to 8 pulling the 4 stones which was really not realistic for this game, so will to less complicate the question :D will there be less than 100 and more than 8 people pulling the stones to the pyramid?

[Eddy]

I personally want the pyramids to be built stone by stone. Imagine the press when they see a game that takes 20 years to complete.

:D

[Miut]

Let's remain realistic in our wishes, fellas. ;) YOU might want to see every last brick pulled up to make your pramid, and see lots of deaths, but the reality is - this is a game.

As for lots of people dying while building the pyramids, yes, I expect there would be some deaths, but if you check the Threads you'll find that at least Keith and I have already posted regarding the life of the builders.

There was a hard core of specialists - master carvers, painters etc, who worked all year long on the Pharaoh's projects and lived at Deir el Medina, the workman's town near the Valley of the Kings. There they have found communal eating places with the remains of meals showing they were fed exceedingly well, and in the tombs for them, bodies with broken limbs that had been expertly set, and even amputees who had received the best of treatment at the time of their injury, and afterward.

Makes sense to look after ALL your workforce, as well as these specialists when these are the people who also plough your fields and reap your harvest on which economy your country exists!

As for wanting to see 100 hot sweaty laborers pulling their loads, this is a representation of reality. Can you imagine the processing power needed to show all that? And the amount of screen space - there'd be no room for anything else to be shown, and each figure would be miniscule to fit onto the screen! And to what purpose? None. It isn't a private Epic Movie we are hoping for from Tilted Mill, it's a game.

I was more than happy with the numbers in Pharaoh toiling away at my monuments - I knew they represented many more people. Take games like Warcraft, and other strategy ones - you never have a screen filled with thousands of little tiny bods all fighting, do you? Even classic wargamers use a bank of ten 10mm figures to represent many more warriors. The same goes or City Building.

I think you should set your sights to more realistic levels or you will be disappointed for the wrong reasons.

[Jayl]

As for wanting to see 100 hot sweaty laborers pulling their loads, this is a representation of reality. Can you imagine the processing power needed to show all that? And the amount of screen space - there'd be no room for anything else to be shown, and each figure would be miniscule to fit onto the screen! And to what purpose? None. It isn't a private Epic Movie we are hoping for from Tilted Mill, it's a game.

Well I really didn't want to see 100 laborers pulling the sleds thus why I said:
I know that is about unrealistic for the game. ;)

I personally though, would like to see at least 10 to 20 pulling a sled, only the experts and picky people will know that there should be more :D

[Tony Leier]

Actually, 100 men pulling most blocks isn't necessarily historical. Mark Lehner and NOVA did some experiments not long ago on it:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/pyramid/explore/builders.html
And in a NOVA experiment we found that 12 men could pull a 1.5 ton block over a slick surface with great ease

The average block size at pyramids at Giza were 2.5 tons, so call it 20 men to pull one of those.

[G-Force]

See, it isn't that hard to build yourself a pyramid, all you need is some friends and a few stones ;)

G-Force

[Jayl]

And in a NOVA experiment we found that 12 men could pull a 1.5 ton block over a slick surface with great ease

Wow, I did not know that. I always learned that it was at least 100 men pulling. I guess videogames can teach you something :)

[Jayl]

I do believe I just found the answer to my questions about the pyramid:

http://www.immortalcities.com/cotn/images/ss/ss-118.jpg

It seems to be that six people will drag the blocks, which looks okay to me in this screenshot. Now the question is will that one block they are dragging equal more than one block...

Also for someone who has better eyes that I do, could you tell me what that is in the upper right corner of the screenshot?

[Miut]

Tony, thanks for the Url. :) I have seen some documentaries about this, but nice to see it in suh an easily assimilated format on line. :)

I think the representational way is fine - and I love the piccie Jayl posted. I know I like details, but I hope I also know when to leave em alone too!

[Ammurit]

Also for someone who has better eyes that I do, could you tell me what that is in the upper right corner of the screenshot?

It strikes me as possibly another building foundation. Perhaps this is part of a series of pyramids.

[Nero Would]

I do believe I just found the answer to my questions about the pyramid:
It seems to be that six people will drag the blocks, which looks okay to me in this screenshot. Now the question is will that one block they are dragging equal more than one block...
Don't forget that Tony said that whether one pull = one block of stone is still to be decided. I suppose that means that the number of stone pullers might change as well.

[Jacquou Le]

I'll answer what I can. We're still working and polishing, so some answers will be vague- you know the drill.

1. Is the player able to rotate buildings?
** Sure.

...


Based on the given info., I'd like to know more details: How many degree per tick, 90, 45, 30...?

Because I'm playing the game A Tale in the Desert, buildings can be rotated 5 degree per tick; to make a quarter turn (90), they need to get 18 ticks, or 3 ticks at 30 degree (faster pace).

[eobet]

Based on the given info., I'd like to know more details: How many degree per tick, 90, 45, 30...?

Because I'm playing the game A Tale in the Desert, buildings can be rotated 5 degree per tick; to make a quarter turn (90), they need to get 18 ticks, or 3 ticks at 30 degree (faster pace).

Look at the screenshot above. The game is still grid based, which means that houses will still only rotate 90 degrees.

I hope the amount of people needed to drag a block will increase, though.

Also, you history buffs out there, how many people died during the construction of a pyramid?

[eobet]

WHOOP! I just noticed:

Where the heck did that screenshot come from? It has FOG! Aiiiieeeee, that's ugly, and no screenshot on the main site has fog, do they? I hope this is a very, early beta, since modern games should not have to use the fog trick anymore!

[Miut]

Couldn't find anything on deaths of pyramid builders, so perhaps there were not that many - as I said earlier, it makes sense to look after all your workforce as many are the peasants who till the soil and represent the wealth of Egypt.

Remember, not that many pyramids were built. Far more tombs were carved out of the Vallies of the Kings, and the Queens.

Here is a nice article on it that reiterates much of what has already been Posted here already, but it is all in one place for those who prefer to read it in one article. ;)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/pyramid_builders_02.shtml

http://www.sff.net/people/Lisanne/Viking/images/miut.gif

[eobet]

Interesting, thanks!

[Keith]

If you look at some of the other housing screen shots you will see that they all do not perfectly align along the street. There are houses that face the street directly and others that are at an angle. So there will be more variation in the appearance of your blocks than in the past.

All the screenshots are availble on various magazine websites and the official CotN website.
http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/horus2.gif
Keith Heitmann (mailto:dheitm8612@aol.com)
Listen to the music of the CityBuilders while online:
Caesar III Music Player (http://www.geocities.com/kheitmann1/C3Player.htm)•Pharaoh Music Jukebox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/pharaoh.htm)•Zeus Music Jukebox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/Zeus.htm)•Emperor's Music Box (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/erotmk.htm)
(Game installation required.)