SUG to solve jewels crisis [Archive]

sakasiru

10-29-2008, 02:50 PM

Right now there are very few emerald cities, and those that are seem to sit on their emeralds. Gold is flowing fine and isn´t much more expensive than other wares.
I don´t know if this is some kind of market manipulation or just a coincidence, but right now it´s frustrating for many of us.

If you want to help that situation is up to you, Reed. I think letting emeralds drip on the market like now would give some a head start and help that not everyone is at the same level. Letting them flow would give most people a chance to experiment with more workers, helping to speed up the whole market maturing thing.

Maybe you should consider bailing out all wares evenly, so emerald dealers wouldn´t sit on their hoardes forever. Cedar is needed, too, f.e.

Hieronymus

10-29-2008, 02:52 PM

The only problem I can see is a lack of competition. The market will sort itself out in time surely. Like aramann I would like to see some strategy left in the game. If it's made too easy, I don't see the point playing.

And yes, I'm one of the lucky ones who has oil. Currently selling (or not, more like) at 5 per.

aeval99

10-29-2008, 03:02 PM

So... jewelry bailout?

Exactly! And as our "chief c[r]ook and bottle washer" don't forget to slip in a few deals for yourself and your best buddies in the process. :p

But yeah, I've upgraded my market three times now and I've yet to see a single emerald for sale. I can only imagine what the price will be when they do finally arrive.

tomnobles

10-29-2008, 03:08 PM

I have emeralds. I am trading emeralds. With 23 workers, I can't keep up with the demand.

BUT, they are not listed on the market.

My name is TomNobles
My city is Isna
My nome is Bastnedj

I am building ships as soon as I find cedar. Have one and one in dry dock now. :)

{EDIT:} Forgot to add: I don't have to worry about bread.

Tinkerbell

10-29-2008, 03:10 PM

How many days did it take for patience to disappear? Everyone is always in such a rush.

When did the race begin?

tomnobles

10-29-2008, 03:12 PM

I don't it's been found yet! Patience that is. I'm pretty sure its hit the deck a runnin'. :D

Beamup

10-29-2008, 03:12 PM

If I am upgrading my palace why can't I use the local luxury? Why do I need to import jewelry from halfway across the world when I have some of the finest leather and sandals in the ancient world? If palace upgrades used the local luxury goods then this would not be an issue.
I said this in the Bugs and Issues forum version of the thread, but might as well repeat here. Using the local luxury is a bad idea, since it would only reduce the incentive to trade, exacerbating the fundamental problem. It would work rather better to randomize it, so that it needs a random luxury good not using the local resource. That would help level out the demand for different goods.

Czech Centurian

10-29-2008, 03:14 PM

I said this in the Bugs and Issues forum version of the thread, but might as well repeat here. Using the local luxury is a bad idea, since it would only reduce the incentive to trade, exacerbating the fundamental problem. It would work rather better to randomize it, so that it needs a random luxury good not using the local resource. That would help level out the demand for different goods.

I like that idea.

sakasiru

10-29-2008, 03:18 PM

It would take some stress from the situation, but I bet soon people would complain why others need to buy only one ware (like bronze for sculptures) and they have to buy both or a finished luxware.

You can´t even out everything. Life isn´t fair and random isn´t either.

Jaguar

10-29-2008, 03:26 PM

And in the end, everyone is going to want all the luxury goods to found more cities. It will even out, right now we're just seeing a lot of people wanting gold/emeralds/jewelry. I'm on the lookout for the items needed for another city, but only have a little bit of bread to work with as we just started. Things will get better. I honestly don't have an issue with the requirement for jewelry to upgrade. Does it suck when everyone starts at the same time? Definitely, but so does trying to get the materials to start another city at this point.

Hieronymus

10-29-2008, 03:26 PM

How many days did it take for patience to disappear? Everyone is always in such a rush.

When did the race begin?
As my daughter is so fond of quoting at me: "Patience is a virtue, find it where you can. Seldom in a woman, never in a man"

I'm in for the long game. I have oil. My pointy-eared friend aramann has henna. You Have Been Warned :p

OhhJim

10-29-2008, 03:27 PM

So... jewelry bailout?

My city is too big to allow it to fail. Not only do I need jewelry, I would like massive amounts of sandals, cosmetics, and slaves. It's the right thing to do for Egypt.

Tinkerbell

10-29-2008, 03:29 PM

It's always sumptin, the the usual result is a game becomes too easy... ;)

Sip the wine :)

thegrad

10-29-2008, 03:47 PM

Jaguar

10-29-2008, 04:02 PM

But, you can't trade without a ship. So where is the cedar?:eek::eek:

That is the catch 22. Now that I'm building my first ship, I'm approaching people with Cedar as their raw materials to establish some trade. I have to say that one lucky person made some decent bread off my cedar buying. But I will do my best to NEVER pay that amount again :)

Takana

10-29-2008, 04:19 PM

So... jewelry bailout?

No. please don't. The market will be fine, time permitting. We are playing beta only just for a few days, and all reached a level 3 Palace already. I thought this game was intended to be played over months? The emerald shortage will go away the next days, and then the expanding jewellers will hunger for the other goods, crying for a sandal bailout.

As others said: Relax, play some hinterland, come back in a day or two... :cool:

Tinkerbell

10-29-2008, 04:22 PM

It sounds to me like the actual problem is that the Free Market is dead & only the Pirates with alliances are moving forward. There are lots of things unavailable at the moment.

This too will pass...

King Faticus

10-29-2008, 04:24 PM

I agree with Tink

the free market will pick up eventually

give it time.. the game just started really...
the economy is an infant!

it's only twee and a halb years ould!

OhhJim

10-29-2008, 04:24 PM

The actual problem is that the Beta Testers are being discouraged from Beta Testing.

PhilL

10-29-2008, 04:27 PM

And in the end, everyone is going to want all the luxury goods to found more cities. It will even out, right now we're just seeing a lot of people wanting gold/emeralds/jewelry. I'm on the lookout for the items needed for another city,

I dont understand why more people with out access to jewelry are not aiming this direction. everyone is wanting to build up and not out. the second city will help you get a direction you want. I understand it is expensive but so is the jewelry.
One thing I think would help is a few more laborers for a level 3 palace so the ones with out emmys,gold could get over the hump sooner.

aramann

10-29-2008, 04:36 PM

This game is not meant to be played short term, over a week or so. It's for long term. A few months, possibly even half a year or even years for those that are hardcore.
I'm sorry (actually I'm not..) Call me a witch or wench or what have you but I believe that this IS a balanced game and that most players right now want all their upgrades NOW and not want to wait or work for them and frankly I'm sick of it!
Either make friends with someone who can help you out or be prepared to have slow going until you are upgraded enough to be happy. And WHEN will that be??? Of COURSE everyone wants to be at least in the top ten. Very few players, like myself, are content to see their ratings slide in an effort to befreind those that have the goods (oh yes, black market trading, whatever... like all you complaining about it don't do it!) or to just be PATIENT and wait until you have the bread/resources to upgrade and branch out?
Actually, I DO owe an apology... to TM. Cause this is a rant. (sorry guys... Reed... etc.)
My thoughts are that this is a game to be playerd LONG TERM. Which means that rankings will change and what you have NOW that you think is not valuable could very well change to be the MOST needed commodity in hte next few days, weeks... months...
I expect to work for ranking or what have you and have strategy in a game like this. Even when I don't have the time for it. Of COURSE I'll slip behind. I don't really care about that. I want to have a nice city, perhaps one or two more, produce goods, make a decent amount of bread, interact with other players, and then use my knowledge of this game to bring in TM some REAL cash so that they can make some REAL games and satisfy my insatiable citybuilding needs.
Hate me or not... that's my stance and I'm sticking with it!

OhhJim

10-29-2008, 04:40 PM

I'm going to make an assumption here, and suggest that if the game is not fun, people will not want to play it. As a Beta Tester, I'm going to further assume that if I'm not having fun, TM wants to know about it.

I'm glad you're having fun, aramann. I'm sure TM wants to know that, as well.

aramann

10-29-2008, 04:45 PM

very valid point ohhJim! ;)
I'm having a blast for the most part! :D I LOVE this.

Tinkerbell

10-29-2008, 04:45 PM

What's a Ranking?

aramann

10-29-2008, 04:48 PM

<snotlaugh>
it's that horrid little number which tells one how they are doing in the "world"
As in someone is 89 of 277 or some such. Meaning that 88 other players are ahead of them. ;)

Mnemon

10-29-2008, 05:26 PM

I have emeralds. I am trading emeralds. With 23 workers, I can't keep up with the demand.

BUT, they are not listed on the market.

Given how important the market is/will be - getting the trade system right is what will make or break the game. And honestly (and there's that dreaded topic politics and how one thinks about economy that will just trickle in here ... just acknowledge we all have opinions on those and try to keep the topic on topic :) ) I am concerned about the "but they are not listed on the market" part.

The problem is - it'll exclude people from the game. It'll limit people's access to who they know and who they don't and if they are part of a clique. Especially once the economy has developed enough for trade networks to have formed. The more established these are the higher the chance that goods of high demand are not being sold on the market, or only at incredible inflated prices.

I.e. the danger is that whether you do well or not boils down on who you know, creating an immense barrier for new players joining the game late.

[Note: That of course means I am one of those that does not buy the free market theory. It's unimportant for the game what that means in the real world, but the question how to balance a market system and make it both fun, challenging and somewhat fair is important in terms of game design.]

A few ideas - and I am sure a lot of them have their own problems, feel free to shoot them down:

1) Provide some market stability by min and max prizes that can be asked for goods. You can still sell expensive if there's a shortage, but not limitless expensive. You'll be guaranteed a minimum prize so no-one can mass-produce and corner the market. This goes for both public and private trading. This also would provide a pricing guideline (if the average price of wares is displayed). Cons: Can't think of any, right now.

2) Allow people to request wares. Doing so yields a bonus payment from within the system to the one that delivers the wares. If no-one fullfills the request after a while (this should be long enough to be the exception) the system delivers the goods and the bread invested is lost from the system (this might also be a system to control inflation). Problem: All trade might occcur through requests, leaving the general market dry again.

3) Variation of the system above: Trade outside the market is taxed. Advantage of direct trade would be the human factor - you establish links and there may be back and forth from there on, however, you won't make as much profit in "bread only" terms than what you could do by trading on the open market.

I do not think having the system supply wares that aren't offered is a good idea. At least not openly as that, too, might kill of public trading (if it happens in secret now and then ... people can't calculate with that in mind).

-Mnemon

tomnobles

10-29-2008, 05:27 PM

What's a Ranking?

And don't ask how it's computed!

tomnobles

10-29-2008, 05:46 PM

I am concerned about the "but they are not listed on the market" part.

The problem is - it'll exclude people from the game.

They are not listed because they are being traded (for gold, cedar, sandals, etc.) Thing is I don't have to worry about 10 being listed & I need 25 or items for 50 that could be 10.

The market will eventually get better (at least it should). But I don't see how world trade can possibly exclude anyone from the game. It is a part of the game.

If you have a market at level 3, you can see lists from three nomes away (north & south). A world trade partner has unlimited distance (well, till end of map anyway).

A cliche, No. It's a good possibility that all my trade partners are new to the game.

Mnemon

10-29-2008, 05:54 PM

A cliche, No. It's a good possibility that all my trade partners are new to the game.

Yes. As everyone's new now. I am thinking down the line. Say a year from now. You'll know people, have your trade routes and contacts. A new person doesn't. And there's little initative (other than hoping there's enough people that are helpful and open to support others) to trade with them for the (by then, and for your standards with a developed economy) puny amounts they can offer.

That is - a player that has built her/his economy will always be able to outbid anyone new to the game, and is thus a way more valuable trading partner. Unless I am missing something about the current setup.

-Mnemon

Tinkerbell

10-29-2008, 05:56 PM

I can only imagine what a scrolling nightmare would be on a list of requests for items. Everyone would have many. Besides, it would still be Pirating with cliques involved, just by another name. We pick who we want to sell to.

The Market system now makes us upload the items. There is no promise involved; the transaction from our end is complete. If we decide it is not selling, we can cancel it & get our items back. (Mah first Lab).

Now, I could see a request scheme, if we have to upload our offered bread with the request, to put some type of control on it getting outta hand.

Personally, I don't have a problem at all with the current system. I believe some people are over-reacting a bit. Let's see it the problem continues in a week.

By the way, I did some looking around. Lots of Emerald cities are only on level 1 & the dispersion of resources North-South is not that even; lots of clumping. This is evidence that random chance & short gameplay time is the cause.

Takana

10-29-2008, 06:00 PM

1) Provide some market stability by min and max prizes that can be asked for goods.
min prize is half a bread, max prize is 80 breads already.
(Edit: min prize is a tenth of a bread now.)

We had the same discussion, with same arguments during the alpha...
After the third generation of players joined in after three weeks, the market began functioning. Alas, server sweep to beta status a week after.
Maybe the market demands a regular supply of fresh meat, but that was not testet out.

(It is really hard to refrain making analogies to the idiocracy of the real market, but I try.)

Mnemon

10-29-2008, 06:09 PM

min prize is half a bread, max prize is 80 breads already.

D'oh. That's the one I missed. Or rather I mistook the "amount" dropdown (that extends to 1000) for the price one, when I checked :0.

-Mnemon

deadlock

10-29-2008, 06:12 PM

min prize is half a bread, max prize is 80 breads already.

We had the same discussion, with same arguments during the alpha...
After the third generation of players joined in after three weeks, the market began functioning. Alas, server sweep to beta status a week after.
Maybe the market demands a regular supply of fresh meat, but that was not testet out.

(It is really hard to refrain making analogies to the idiocracy of the real market, but I try.)

Yes, we suffered through this during the alpha as well, and I personally am astonished to see nothing has been done about this little "jewelry problem", other than hoping more players in a uncontrolled free market will make it all better. Soo American of you, TM! :)

If you don't like having to "be friendly" to random people for some imaginary valuable item, and if you really like this game, you wait patiently through this, for I don't think the situation will be rectified in any way. If you don't (really like this game) you have probably already dropped out at this stage, so, ah, whatever :confused:

tomnobles

10-29-2008, 06:21 PM

There are now two markets. The local one you see when you click on market. The other you make yourself or others make with you. Personally I like the other.

Beamup

10-29-2008, 06:33 PM

Thing is I don't have to worry about ... items for 50 that could be 10.
I'd like to know how that one works. Unless you're doing competitive bidding for each trade (making it even more prohibitively time-consuming) I see no way you could possibly know whether there's somebody else out there willing to sell it to you for 10. This is, in fact, one of the biggest advantages of the open market - it's competitive by nature.

Tinkerbell

10-29-2008, 06:35 PM

There are now two markets. The local one you see when you click on market. The other you make yourself or others make with you. Personally I like the other.

and us noobs didn't even know about the other Market until we read it in posts from you alpha/beta people. ;)

I understand that getting the Palace from level 3 to 4 is where the very first requirement is for imported goods? And everyone wants to evolve their Palace for more Laborers? So, it hits every player at exactly the same point?

It sound to me like we could fill in the blank with a substitute, like cedar for ships for the alternate Market.

You DO realize that TM did this on purpose cuz they are Tricky & Very Evil™. Just consider it another C4 Carthago Favor or Ephesus Earthquake sticking point. ;)

King Faticus

10-29-2008, 06:40 PM

here is an interesting fact... the # 2 and #3 ranked players?
they sit on top of emeralds...

don't know if that means anything.. it's just data.. use it as you like lol

#1 sits ontop of gold too

OhhJim

10-29-2008, 07:01 PM

I can't even barter intelligently for emeralds, because I have no clue how much they have sold for on the open market.

Tinkerbell

10-29-2008, 07:09 PM

The emerald & gold people will get it in the end, King. From what I hear, they only get lucky early.

I would guess that the reason TM doesn't have more gold & emerald cities, is that later they will pay & we will be in the driving seat.

Kiya

10-29-2008, 07:11 PM

If you want to upgrade your palace --- and who wouldn't --- there is a constant need for jewelry.

The emerald & gold people will get it in the end, King. From what I hear, they only get lucky early.

And that could be just a hearsay. :p

King Faticus

10-29-2008, 07:14 PM

tomnobles

10-29-2008, 07:18 PM

here is an interesting fact... the # 2 and #3 ranked players?
they sit on top of emeralds...

Just coinsedince, trust me. :D

I'd like to know how that one works.

It's called negotaitions. I click on your city on the world map. A small window pops up in lower left corner and gives you three options; Trade, players name & message.

I then send you a scroll (:)) something like:

Hello there, I see that you have that. Well I have this. How about we trade X that for Y this.

If it sounds good to you then we trade Tit for tat not tit for 50 bread.

Of course we both need a ship. There are other advantages also.

King Faticus

10-29-2008, 07:21 PM

yeah yeah mr #3 it's a coincidence!

ohh and with the tight trade niche you created you assure your high position into the "late" game! ;)

tomnobles

10-29-2008, 07:26 PM

but there will always be demand for jewelry really...

Definitely. Palace upgrades will require more & more jewelry I'm sure.

Should be a fairly balanced luxury market. Time will tell.

tomnobles

10-29-2008, 07:27 PM

yeah yeah mr #3 it's a coincidence!

ohh and with the tight trade niche you created you assure your high position into the "late" game! ;)

Creating! I'm not finished yet. :D

King Faticus

10-29-2008, 07:29 PM

/me sighs

do you need oil?... :o

cannot make purfume because the only henna for sale is worth 450 for stack of 10!

Beamup

10-29-2008, 07:33 PM

It's called negotaitions.
That's not what I meant. Let's see if I can be a little clearer this time. In the post I quoted, you wrote that you didn't have to worry about "items for 50 that could be 10," which I took to mean paying 50 for something you could have bought for 10 from somebody else. (If that's not what you meant, please explain what you did mean.)

BUT, if you only talk with one person about the trade, there's no way you can know whether somebody else might be willing to give you a better price. For example, I recently saw somebody offering 25 emeralds at 10 bread each. I grabbed it (and feel somewhat guilty about doing so, to be completely honest). If I had been negotiating individual trades with specific people, there's no way I could have found out that there was somebody willing to sell at that price.

tomnobles

10-29-2008, 07:36 PM

Build the exchange as soon as you can. Then find cedar & build a ship. Then find a henna city and trade 1 for 1.

1 bread is a lot better than 45.

tomnobles

10-29-2008, 07:47 PM

That's not what I meant. Let's see if I can be a little clearer this time. In the post I quoted, you wrote that you didn't have to worry about "items for 50 that could be 10," which I took to mean paying 50 for something you could have bought for 10 from somebody else. (If that's not what you meant, please explain what you did mean.)

BUT, if you only talk with one person about the trade, there's no way you can know whether somebody else might be willing to give you a better price. For example, I recently saw somebody offering 25 emeralds at 10 bread each. I grabbed it (and feel somewhat guilty about doing so, to be completely honest). If I had been negotiating individual trades with specific people, there's no way I could have found out that there was somebody willing to sell at that price.

What I meant is that I saw the items for ten. Sometime later I noticed the same item for 50.

You can talk with as many as you like. A 1 for 1 trade will usually be accepted by anyone. Thats what I do with gold. I get 1 gold, they get 1 emerald. Cost 1 bread (actually a little more, but I'm a rounder). I think I just saw it for 45.

You have something that you are producing. Everyone needs (or will need) that, directly or indirectly (raw or lux).

If this dosen't clearify, then make me keep going.

tomnobles

10-29-2008, 07:50 PM

Oh yeah, in case you don't know, upgrading the market gives it a longer range.

Level 3 market can see item listed from three nomes away.

Tinkerbell

10-29-2008, 07:54 PM

If you want to upgrade your palace --- and who wouldn't --- there is a constant need for jewelry.

Then we blame you alpha people for not rioting at the time.

And that could be just a hearsay. :p

Then we really blame you alpha people.

This is not rocket science :D

Kiya

10-29-2008, 08:01 PM

Then we blame you alpha people for not rioting at the time.

Please don't say that. :(
I tried my best and I was given some English lessons. :(:o:cool:

tomnobles

10-29-2008, 08:02 PM

We did riot, but they sent troups.

King Faticus

10-29-2008, 08:06 PM

personally I think if somebody managed their emeralds and jewelry well enough at this early phase in the game...
by the time their resource becomes """less""" important they will already be miles ahead of other players.

normally I would think an open market later on would help balance it but it seems most the trade is occurring via bartering between friends and cliches
NOT on the open market.. as far as I can see anyways...

I'm sorry tom I don't want to call you out again but your a perfect example of handling the resources very well early on o_0

your really doing nothing wrong (in fact your doing well) but you do have a clear advantage over other players in my eyes.. :/

this is more a game balancing issue really

anyways that is just my 2c
feel free to bash me \ flame me \ correct me if you want lol

Please don't say that. :(
I tried my best and I was given some English lessons. :(:o:cool:

screw them ;)

------------------------

Tinkerbell

10-29-2008, 08:08 PM

We did riot, but they sent troups.

And you ended up with a Gold city by accident?

Were you the rioter or the troop? ;)

Your post (http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=209074&postcount=6), no?

It's only about 300 days. :D

Peice of cake for a hacker.

:D

tomnobles

10-29-2008, 08:21 PM

Emerald city.

I'm from the old school where there's hackers & non-hackers (can & can not's). I keep forgeting that words are changing. Fag used to be cigarette too. :D

King Faticus

10-29-2008, 08:22 PM

and gay meant happy lol

tomnobles

10-29-2008, 08:28 PM

"friends and cliches"

I simply did just as I explained to someone. I didn't know any of the people I am bartering with. Oh, maybe one Kiya. But she don't count cause we haven't started yet. :D

I did exactly as I stated. went world map, found gold and sent a message. Not all will answer by the way.

But everyone to their own opinion! :rolleyes:

JuliaSet

10-29-2008, 08:38 PM

The scroll button's flashing is not that apparent to me. I had to know to look for it.

Players check your messages!

Tinkerbell

10-29-2008, 08:46 PM

Emerald city.

Of course. And when you message, E. F. Hutton & everyone else listens! ;)

Oh, maybe one Kiya.

Uh huh. You just lost Kiya as a friend. I'd run. :D

King Faticus

10-29-2008, 09:37 PM

But everyone to their own opinion! :rolleyes:

well I used you as an example, I hope I didn't sound like I was accusing you of anything other than knowing how to use your resource o_0

Kiya asked me what I thought about it and I told her to go for it since it is in her interest.

so I'm not really against you lol

Uh huh. You just lost Kiya as a friend. I'd run. :D
nah because tom has fair priced jewelry lol
it makes all the difference! o_0

Hyjynx

10-29-2008, 10:21 PM

Fair priced jewelry can soothe even the most savage beast.

King Faticus

10-29-2008, 11:17 PM

especially when larger jewelry shops need oil to upgrade

YES! lol

Edit: not that Kiya is anything resembling a beast o_0
(actually quite the opposite)
and besides she is at the time of this edit the # 18 ranked player in the game..

Takana

10-30-2008, 04:39 AM

Then we blame you alpha people for not rioting at the time.

We tried our best. But Reed sat this out like a good politician.

I tried my best and I was given some English lessons. :(:o:cool:
Are you still resentful? I'm sorry for that.

G-Force

10-30-2008, 04:50 AM

Every new starting world will have the same problem: no jewelry. I've been checking the market frequently, no gold, no emeralds and no jewelry for sale. Some cities need several market upgrades to be able to see some trade in it. By the time it does become available, those who can make will have a head start on the others. At the moment you need to be lucky to get one of the jewelry resources.

So here's my suggestion: change the (first and/or seconde)palace jewelry requirement to the luxury good the player has the resource for. This will give the advantage of stimulating the players to produce (and trade) their own luxury goods as well. Following palace upgrades can become a combination of the luxury good and jewelry. It does make sence for a palace to show off the good the city is specialised in.

So the first jewelry required upgrade would be changed to: 25 luxury good, the following to 25 luxury good AND current jewelry requirement for that level -25.

so what do you all think about it?

G-Force

King Faticus

10-30-2008, 04:55 AM

you know.. I have two friends that are located on emerald cities that told me that they try to sell emeralds at more reasonable prices

but guess what happens?
their price gauging emerald neighbors buy the cheap emeralds and resell them for much higher ;)

this is part of a free market I know lol

but maybe there should be a way to set limits for who can buy your wares maybe?
so my friends can black list the price gougers...

the people who are blacklisted will never know because they don't even see it...
although I can see this being misused as well gah
for every so called solution.. another problem!

tobing

10-30-2008, 05:08 AM

I'm really curious how this will work out. The devs claim that the initial situation, which gives an advantage to those players that have access to jewelry will balance out later on, when other things become also important, like second city and building ships and maybe military.

Well, I don't believe this. No, not at all. What I think is that the advantage the jewelry players have initially will give them a head start that remains an advantage ever on. The reason is simple: Without jewelry I can have only 65 workers. With that, I can only produce a certain amount of bread or goods. If you can level up your city, you have more workers and thus more wealth.

And that's it. More workers available just means you have more wealth. With that, you can grow faster and amass even more. The others don't have any possibility to keep up or become better than those with the initial advantage.

Well, we'll see... but I would be really surprised if things turn out to be different.

Ghost Platypus

10-30-2008, 05:16 AM

yes but establishing a new city will cost 200 sandals 200 sculpture.. 150 cosmetics.. 150 purfume...

no jewelry

so people with these resources will be in a good position later on

also if gold and emeralds are still high priced by then (which I doubt) people will eventually start establishing emerald cities o_0
but there will always be demand for jewelry really...

The thing is, the people who started with jewelry resources will have much more bread/infrastructure to buy those other goods with, and so they'll be able to expand faster--into those other products, as well. There isn't currently any gameplay mechanic that serves as a check to the ones on top growing bigger, faster, than the ones who started with less fortunate starts.

I guess it isn't entirely unlike real life that one's success seems to be largely determined by how lucky you were when you were 'born', and who you know ;), but is that the game Tilted Mill is trying to make?

King Faticus

10-30-2008, 05:28 AM

Takana

10-30-2008, 05:53 AM

So here's my suggestion: change the (first and/or seconde)palace jewelry requirement to the luxury good the player has the resource for. This will give the advantage of stimulating the players to produce (and trade) their own luxury goods as well. Following palace upgrades can become a combination of the luxury good and jewelry. It does make sence for a palace to show off the good the city is specialised in.

So the first jewelry required upgrade would be changed to: 25 luxury good, the following to 25 luxury good AND current jewelry requirement for that level -25.

so what do you all think about it?
G-Force

Great idea. I suggested once, to use the other goods as small requirements for the other buildings (eg 5 cedar for a top bakery, some perfume for a high tannery, etc.)
But something made TM stick to the 'palaces are made of jewelery, the rest is only for new cities'-idea.

Ghost Platypus

10-30-2008, 06:28 AM

Ghost Platypus

I agree with you completely and said something similar in a previous post.
they WILL have the resources to expand into other (now more lucrative) resourses

yay so they can move to the profitable resources while the emerald trade slows! ( but it won't stop either and they can keep the prices high too with the process on my previous post)

thus hampering them NONE!

I fail on reading thoroughly u_u

Back in Alpha I had some moderate success by being able to sidestep the jewelry requirement, and by getting the materials for a second city, instead. But at the start of this world, in my local area there's one developed Henna city (and one just-started), between 5 Kohl cities to the north of it and 6 Oil cities to the south (one of 'em mine)...so Perfume and Cosmetics will probably be slow in coming to our area. I'm upgrading my market as fast as I can :rolleyes: we'll see how it goes.

King Faticus

10-30-2008, 06:45 AM

what region are you in?

Takana

10-30-2008, 06:53 AM

I fail on reading thoroughly u_u

Back in Alpha I had some moderate success by being able to sidestep the jewelry requirement, and by getting the materials for a second city, instead. But at the start of this world, in my local area there's one developed Henna city (and one just-started), between 5 Kohl cities to the north of it and 6 Oil cities to the south (one of 'em mine)...so Perfume and Cosmetics will probably be slow in coming to our area. I'm upgrading my market as fast as I can :rolleyes: we'll see how it goes.
Yes, where is your region? There is an idle Henna 4 field lying around here in Bastnefer.
But all workers are occupied baking bread to buy cedar and build a small ship in the next time.

vic_4

10-30-2008, 07:08 AM

I fail on reading thoroughly u_u

Back in Alpha I had some moderate success by being able to sidestep the jewelry requirement, and by getting the materials for a second city, instead. But at the start of this world, in my local area there's one developed Henna city (and one just-started), between 5 Kohl cities to the north of it and 6 Oil cities to the south (one of 'em mine)...so Perfume and Cosmetics will probably be slow in coming to our area. I'm upgrading my market as fast as I can :rolleyes: we'll see how it goes.

Right now in my nome Osirishem there is noh ennna for sale since yesterday night, I produce kohl that nobody wants and I have some cosmetics on sale that nobody wants.

Ghost Platypus

10-30-2008, 07:16 AM

what region are you in?

I'm in Amundep (Pharaoh Djanken), the Henna zone to the north is Rautu, and the Kohl zone to the north of that is Osirispen. So far the only Henna I can see on my level-4 market is selling for 45 bread and up. Not to blame them, I'm not sure I'd do much different myself, in their throne. :p

Heh, last I looked at the zoomed-out map Osirispen was the outer edge of civilization. Welcome, all you new prospective governor-types! :D

King Faticus

10-30-2008, 07:22 AM

nobody wants oil either and the current selling price is now 4 per (and soon to drop.. again...)

btw that means pottery sells for more and so do bricks:rolleyes:
infact somebody wipes all the bricks out of the market every night

they sell henna near me but as I said 45 per is ridiculous
and everybody else is hording their resources too

King Faticus

10-30-2008, 07:27 AM

I'm in Amundep (Pharaoh Djanken)
you should say hello to your neighbors as birds of a feather might help each other out.

Heh, last I looked at the zoomed-out map Osirispen was the outer edge of civilization. Welcome, all you new prospective governor-types! :D
I thought it looped like a ring with both edges connecting

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 10:31 AM

OhhJim

10-30-2008, 11:22 AM

Then we blame you alpha people for not rioting at the time.

Well, to be fair, the Alpha wasn't explained very well, as far as what we were trying to accomplish. I'm all for making a stink when things aren't right, but, as Seneca said, "When one does not know to what port one is sailing, no wind is favorable". I'm still unclear on what my goals and motivations are in this game, in fact. Other than upgrading buildings.

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 11:34 AM

Well, to be fair, the Alpha wasn't explained very well, as far as what we were trying to accomplish. I'm all for making a stink when things aren't right, but, as Seneca said, "When one does not know to what port one is sailing, no wind is favorable". I'm still unclear on what my goals and motivations are in this game, in fact. Other than upgrading buildings.

It was a bit of a joke, OhhJim. From where I sit, TM is always innocent. :D I don't blame the developers very often, cuz I expect them to have what we would call "tunnel vision" from our perspective. Their vision that we don't understand.

We as players are trying to get from step one to step two. The developers are considering how the game functions when we get to the "end".

Alpha/beta/zeta testers are supposed to yell & scream & the developers are supposed to ignore. ;)

Beamup

10-30-2008, 11:50 AM

As a Standard Market update...

Last night I was able to buy gold from someone & there was a lot of gold available (bought 10 for only 30 Bread ~ couldn't turn it down even though I don't need it yet). There was also one buy of jewelry available.

Right now there is lots of cedar & even one buy of emeralds possible. Expensive, of course. No jewelry.

I only have a Market Level 2. It looks like things are improving. :)
It does indeed look that way. Oddly, though, only for the raw materials. Nobody seems to be selling much in the way of goods. Probably that will come - as people upgrade their shops, destroying them to build another good will get less attractive.

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 11:53 AM

It does indeed look that way. Oddly, though, only for the raw materials. Nobody seems to be selling much in the way of goods. Probably that will come - as people upgrade their shops, destroying them to build another good will get less attractive.

I just checked again. Two jewelry buys available now. ;)

tobing

10-30-2008, 11:57 AM

I can't even login.

Beamup

10-30-2008, 12:05 PM

I just checked again. Two jewelry buys available now. ;)
I see some jewelry, too - but nothing else for the luxury goods. Aside from the sandals I'm selling, that is. And making a decent profit on doing so, above what I would do from the leather alone.

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 12:10 PM

I'm trying to do my part. I have a 5 & a new 10 Bronze up. Sculpture is next, when Palace 3 is complete. Priorities from a Noob point of view. While many players appear to be chasing the ranking, I'm tinker-ing (mah normal mode of travel) in the Lab.

sakasiru

10-30-2008, 12:14 PM

I see a lot of emeralds and currently 4 jewelry ads on the market, but none to prices I´m willing to pay.

If someone is interested to buy emeralds for 20 and/ or jewelry for 40 (!), I pass them along for you :rolleyes:

Mnemon

10-30-2008, 12:19 PM

Ye, I've continously produced sandals and sold lots now and then. Sandals are some of the goods requiring most resources (6:1 conversion) so production is slow. Still - I definitely am going down the specialisation route already and have increased output a couple levels by now. Means I won't be able to upgrade quite as quick, but I don't mind being at the low end development wise :).

-Mnemon

OhhJim

10-30-2008, 12:46 PM

It was a bit of a joke, OhhJim.

I know, Tink. But I do take my testing seriously. I don't take MYSELF seriously, but definitely my testing! ;)

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 12:51 PM

I know, Tink. But I do take my testing seriously. I don't take MYSELF seriously, but definitely my testing! ;)

Dat's why we Rebels Rock! Keep up the great work! :)

Czech Centurian

10-30-2008, 12:55 PM

I just saw two jewelry offers but couldn't afford them. 40 Bread per 1 jewel

tomnobles

10-30-2008, 01:51 PM

...they can keep the prices high too with the process on my previous post)...
Let me repeate myself at the risk of being rude! (Personally) I use the market as an emergency recovery tool. That is, if I'm running low on bread, I'll post a few items. You probably don't see any emeralds or jewelry (my products) of mine on the market. Yet I can barely keep up with the demand of raw and finished goods that I produce (actually I can't keep up).

And I don't use the market! There is a world out there!

...I'm upgrading my market as fast as I can :rolleyes:...
Another reason to find someone (trade partner) on world level. Why spend bricks upgrading to find goods that will cost you much bread, when you can trade 1 of yours for 1 of theirs (or 3 of their raw for one of your finished).
No money (bread) involved, except the 1 bread that it cost to produce raw material.

...I produce kohl that nobody wants and I have some cosmetics on sale that nobody wants.
That will change very soon. Almost all my shops are at level 3. I just noticed I need khol to upgrade my brickworks, henna for basket & pottery shops & oil for jewelry shop. However you could look at world map & find henna cities and start negotations for trade with them.

...Oddly, though, only for the raw materials. Nobody seems to be selling much in the way of goods...
That's market for you. Right now there are those that watch the market very close. Goods are being listed, they just don't last long unless high priced.

Need jewelry - got any finished lux item - click on my city and pop me a scroll. I'll go 1 for 1 with you if I have the product. :D

Beamup

10-30-2008, 01:59 PM

That's market for you. Right now there are those that watch the market very close. Goods are being listed, they just don't last long unless high priced.
False. I *am* one of those watching the market very closely. There's almost nothing being offered.

I'll also observe that if you're trading 1-for-1, you're getting ripped off relative to the market. When goods *are* offered, they're running 15-20 bread per. And I recently noted you selling jewelry for 30. So instead of 1-for-1, you could be getting 3-for-2 or even 2-for-1.

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 02:13 PM

Pirates like Tomnobles might be killing the Free Market. Now, perhaps this is what TM had in mind.

Will we all be forced to go Pirate, especially with the way the Market fees are determined ~ higher total price = higher Market upload fee ~ especially when we lose the fee by withdrawing the Market upload?

That balance thingie again AND Tomnobles & others are even advertizing on this forum!

Run up the Jolly Roger...

:(

Mnemon

10-30-2008, 02:21 PM

And I don't use the market! There is a world out there!

We do understand the concept. But a) this works only for a limited amount of people, and b) it'll eventually exclude those that do not have connections (and again - this is meant in the long term way, not now - but 12 months from now) from enjoying the game.

And yes, it is a good strategy if your enjoyment of a game is focusing on competitiveness and how quickly you can develop/how far ahead you can get.

Me, I don't care about that. I don't have fun besting others or min/maxing a game. Different philosophies, but one of these two approaches is hindered by a limited and "exclusive" rather than "inclusive" market model.

-Mnemon

King Faticus

10-30-2008, 02:29 PM

Tom I wasn't talking about you in that post lol

if you sell your emeralds on the market very inexpensively what will happen?
your neighbors will buy them and jack up the prices...

that's what I meant

tomnobles

10-30-2008, 02:30 PM

It really amazes me how someone can take words and twist them into totally something else.

ooooh wellllll...........:rolleyes:

King Faticus

10-30-2008, 02:32 PM

me? :confused:
If I twisted them I misunderstood something o_0

as far as I know TM added the ability to trade directly with people
and so there is nothing wrong with using that feature

and besides I managed to strike a 1 : 1 oil to henna deal
the near by sellers are offering 45 bread per henna NO THANK YOU

Hyjynx

10-30-2008, 02:37 PM

As someone who may or may not be profiting indirectly from TomNoble's brand of Piracy....

I really don't see what single trades for goods between two towns is hurting... The only difference between me sending my ships to your town with my goods, and you sending your ships to my town with yours, is that we both save the listing cost in the market.

The real pirates are the ones who continuously refresh a specific good in the market in order to catch a 1 - 1 trade between two towns who don't have ships from their exchange yet. And wind up picking up those 10 jewelry for .1 bread each that the seller intended for someone else.

Go to the Nile view, find someone who has the goods you are looking for, and send them a Message. I need X. You make X. I have Y. How many Y do I need to give you for each of your X? If they respond (which seems to be the real trick) - You agree to their set exchange rate and either send your ships, or don't agree and keep your Y. If they don't want Y, then find another person who has X.

I don't see what the problem is here.

To everyone who is complaining that they got a crappy resource (ie - not emeralds or gold at the moment) - remember that we are in the building phase of a very very long game. In the building phase, anyone who makes a resource that is required to build your palace is going to have an advantage at the start. Those that have the resources necessary to settle a second town are going to have an advantage in the middle game. Those that have a resource necessary to build military will have an advantage in the late game.

Does it all balance? Well, that's why were in the beta.

My thoughts are, those people that have a resource for Military (Bronze, Leather, Cedar) are NOT going to see an advantage in the late game, because by the time the late game comes around, many people will have 3, 4, and 5 towns. Those that struggled through the first 2 months with Bronze aren't going to have an advantage when building military - because the guy who started with Emeralds, moved to Gold, and then settled Bronze will still be significantly ahead of you.

tomnobles

10-30-2008, 02:37 PM

Wasn't targeting you King! :)

Don't believe you twisted anything.

Mnemon

10-30-2008, 02:45 PM

The problem is ... you require a resource to overcome a barrier before you can trade directly. There's close to no cedar on the market, and that only to high prices.

As cedar is one of the requirements for building new cities/chariots it will continue to be in high demand even with those that do have a ship already. Those that have cedars (and ships) will use it as their side of the 1 vs. 1 bargains, leaving little (as, as tomnobles pointed out, why should they put it on the market) that will appear for the rest of players on the market.

Without ships, no direct trade. Without direct trade opportunity, no 1 vs. 1 trade. Means, a small minority that trades 1 vs 1 loads, a larger (as more and more people join) majority that all fight for whatever little cedar at high prices trickles down.

Makes more sense?

-Mnemon

sakasiru

10-30-2008, 02:46 PM

My thoughts are, those people that have a resource for Military (Bronze, Leather, Cedar) are NOT going to see an advantage in the late game, because by the time the late game comes around, many people will have 3, 4, and 5 towns. Those that struggled through the first 2 months with Bronze aren't going to have an advantage when building military - because the guy who started with Emeralds, moved to Gold, and then settled Bronze will still be significantly ahead of you.

People with leather and bronze can both produce a luxware completely independent AND can build up military much cheaper than anyone else. And as for cedar, with the apparently flourishing private market, everyone needs cedar *right now* ;)

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 02:53 PM

Hyjynx, it sounds like you also want the Free Market removed from the game.

Personally, I am growing to want to have only the Free Market & Piracy to be eliminated.

TM, you might wanna consider removing the Market Fee altogether (but I bet you did it that way to keep sellers from spamming the Market). That appears to be what is causing all the Piracy. It is starting to look like the only reason to have a Market is to get cedar to build Pirate ships.

Right now, I'm determined to keep the Free Market going & only sell & buy there.

Tinkerbell's Law gains another chapter...

tomnobles

10-30-2008, 03:15 PM

Pirates.....................come on!!!!!!

You can read better than that.

Beamup

10-30-2008, 03:20 PM

I'm going to have to agree with Tom on that one (see, it happens :D). Calling it "Piracy" doesn't seem to have any rational basis I can see, and is overly perjorative. Personally, I like calling it Barter, since the most often-cited advantage is that it doesn't involve currency (bread).

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 03:21 PM

Pirates.....................come on!!!!!!

You can read better than that.

LOL

I invented the title for two reasons:

1) It involves ships

2) It beats the system & runs under the Radar

Bonus smirk

3) Everyone LOVES Pirates. Ahr me Ahr, I need more Grog! :D

tobing

10-30-2008, 03:21 PM

Bartering is a big part of that social interaction that was mentioned in another thread not long ago.

If you can't beat them, join them...

sakasiru

10-30-2008, 03:22 PM

The real pirates are the ones who continuously refresh a specific good in the market in order to catch a 1 - 1 trade between two towns who don't have ships from their exchange yet. And wind up picking up those 10 jewelry for .1 bread each that the seller intended for someone else.

Ah, well, that´s the risk. If you want it without risk, you have to invest in ships.

King Faticus

10-30-2008, 03:23 PM

o_0

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 03:27 PM

King Faticus

10-30-2008, 03:32 PM

tomnobles

10-30-2008, 03:34 PM

Here's something that appears not to be understood.

Everyone will need every luxury item produced at some point.

Not everyone will be able to (see) everything they need, unless they upgrade their market (more & more bricks).

They can use (the built-in feature of trade on) the world map to find potential trade partners ( other pirates) and trade for the item they need.

Can't go wrong with 1 bread for 1 bread. Or can you?

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 03:38 PM

<wants to blame, Stinkerbell, but won't>

Who made that non-polar bear thread in the Outside World, Hmmmm? :D

I DO believe that one of the very first SCS scroll messages was about Pirates also. "We need more Pirates" IIRC.

Who new?

deadlock

10-30-2008, 03:44 PM

Ah, enough with this calling names stuff. There's nothing anyone can do about private trades, and it was here before personal trade or scrolls was added to the game. I personally enjoy the market better, even with the listing fees, since it gives buyers a chance to negotiate the price (by not buying). But everyone's welcome to trade anyway they want.

tomnobles didn't invent private trade, and is just lucky to have landed up on emeralds. It is frustrating to wait, I understand, but it's not his fault. He just seems to be doing a better job at marketing, that's all :)

King Faticus

10-30-2008, 03:45 PM

as far as I can tell there is no way to assure that 'privateers' will hold true on their side of the deal

currently I can offer X of Y resource to anybody with an exchange

but there is no way I can be sure that they will keep trading X of Z in return...
I could potentially loose a lot of expensive resources that way o-0

maybe if TM standardized it and made it 'safer' while adding a transport fee (feeding your fleets and paying for passage rights ect)

that might help maybe?

tomnobles

10-30-2008, 03:50 PM

Mnemon

10-30-2008, 03:55 PM

currently I can offer X of Y resource to anybody with an exchange but there is no way I can be sure that they will keep trading X of Z in return...

That is what I am trying to point to. And this not a critique of tomnobles. It's a critique of the system setup.

What tomnobles leaves out is the human factor. Trust. And reducing risk. So you get tight trading circles that build up their production capacities alongside each other. There is little initiative for these to trade outside their circle once they have established it.

A) Trust.
B) Higher production levels = higher amounts that can be shipped = less effort then trading with loads of small cities.
C) The human tendency to clump together and form "societies".
D) The more cities these people have, the less need to involve outsiders.

And no, I am still not talking about *now*. But still about somewhere down the lane. And yes, for all I know tomnobles would go in for a risk approach. The problem is - if a system has the potential to be used to reduce risk ... people will.

The other problem - it starves the market, especially in the case of those early goods that everyone will always need first to develop, as they join the game.

-Mnemon

Jaguar

10-30-2008, 03:56 PM

TBH, gold in my nome and market is really no good to me atm. I have so much gold up on the market and I very rarely sell any these days because of the direct trading that is taking place. In response, I've been forced to contact people to direct trade with them and am doing so, or otherwise I would never get materials for a new city. Right now my gold is listed for 8 bread per, a steal, however, people in my nome and area, don't need gold. They need emeralds. So please don't lump me in with people who have it made, because I don't. I have 200 bread and 100 bricks, lots of gold nobody wants to buy and everything is 10-50 bread per for items to set up another town.

I'm sure that in some areas it's the other way around, with emeralds in large supply, but no supply of gold.

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 03:59 PM

Good point, King. Again, it is a balance thingie. Does TM want the Market to work, or is it just a starting building in the game.

Of course, 'privateers' (Ahem ~ Pirate Ship), is the efficient way to go. I also do not care how other players play.

How about random, at sea, disasters. You can lose your private ship & it's contents. Market ships have no such danger, cuz they are protected by TM, the God of Egypt.

<and emerald cities are accidently situated in dangerous waters as a "fluke">

tomnobles

10-30-2008, 04:08 PM

Market ships have no such danger, cuz they are protected by TM, the God of Egypt.

You mean ships of the desert.

Caravans are used for the market. Camels? :)

...<and emerald cities are accidently situated in dangerous waters as a "fluke">

Love it! . o_O

OhhJim

10-30-2008, 04:10 PM

tomnobles...just seems to be doing a better job at marketing, that's all :)

Wanna buy some oil? No, didn't think so. Guess I'm a crappy marketer. :eek:

Maybe if I had a better product, I'd do a better job of marketing.

sakasiru

10-30-2008, 04:10 PM

<and emerald cities are accidently situated in dangerous waters as a "fluke">

Well, that would make their wares even more expensive ;)

Ghost Platypus

10-30-2008, 04:15 PM

Can't go wrong with 1 bread for 1 bread. Or can you?

One loaf is worth a lot less for someone who can make 100/hour than it's worth for someone who only makes 10. :D

I think "piracy" is a pretty inaccurate term, myself. "Smuggling" is vaguely better, except there really isn't any overriding authority taxing trade; the market fees are more, like, paying for agents to transport the goods for you.

Jaguar

10-30-2008, 04:19 PM

Wanna buy some oil? No, didn't think so. Guess I'm a crappy marketer. :eek:

Maybe if I had a better product, I'd do a better job of marketing.

I'll trade my gold for oil, henna, kohl, bronze, leather or cedar or two gold for a finished luxury product. I've given up on emeralds and upgrading my palace at this time.

tomnobles

10-30-2008, 04:22 PM

Well, that would make their wares even more expensive ;)

Yeah Tink!

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 04:24 PM

Well, that would make their wares even more expensive ;)

Exactly my point. Thank you. Market Trading is totally safe.

sakasiru

10-30-2008, 04:24 PM

Yeah Tink!

What are YOU doing here?! Back in your mines! :p

tomnobles

10-30-2008, 04:26 PM

Wanna buy some oil? No, didn't think so. Guess I'm a crappy marketer. :eek:

Maybe if I had a better product, I'd do a better job of marketing.

I have oil on the way, sorry. However, everyone will need oil & everyone will need perfume.

Oil, henna & khol will be need for upgrades along with almost everything else.

And don't forget the luxury items needed for founding a new city (which I'm sure some are looking for right now).

OhhJim

10-30-2008, 04:28 PM

I'll trade my gold for oil, henna, kohl, bronze, leather or cedar or two gold for a finished luxury product. I've given up on emeralds and upgrading my palace at this time.

Well, I bought some (so far useless) gold already. Maybe from you. Not sure what I can do with it. I have lots of oil on the market, but tomnobles says that's for losers and I should go calling door-to-door on people who won't respond to my requests to trade. Much more efficient.

King Faticus

10-30-2008, 04:34 PM

you don't have to do anything :)

the thing is I cannot sell my oil at 4 bread per

I cannot go any lower than that because then it actually consumes more bread making it than it would to just upgrade my bakery and wheat farm and putting the laborers there

(actually 4 bread per might be loosing bread too)

at that rate I would be lucky if I could GIVE the dam(n) oil away

tomnobles

10-30-2008, 04:48 PM

Poor Ohhjim.

Heres a lab for you Tink.

Situation:
Population = 90 or (Palace Level 4)
Level 3 Bakery (19/Laborers) & Level 4 wheat (27/Laborers)
Wheat has a net loss of [12 per hour]
With all laborers assigned, bakery has a net loss of [1 per hour]

Only two shops at level 4

Balanced?

sakasiru

10-30-2008, 04:49 PM

upgrade the bakery?!

OhhJim

10-30-2008, 04:50 PM

It's a little like being pushed off a tall building and having a bird yell at you to simply flap your wings and fly because hey, everybody has wings, don't they?

kach

10-30-2008, 04:51 PM

@ KF:

I have calculated that it costs me 2.4 bread to produce 1 resource item.

If my arithmetic is OK (always an issue with arithmetic), and if all other resources produce one per hour, then they all cost 2.4 bread to produce.

So you should be able to show a profit charging 5 bread for a resource.

tomnobles

10-30-2008, 05:00 PM

upgrade the bakery?!

Forgot to mention 5 workers at exchange. . :)

-25 bread per hr

sakasiru

10-30-2008, 05:02 PM

Forgot to mention 5 workers at exchange. . :)

-20 bread per hr

*cough* if you happen to send one of your scribes to your inbox, mabe I can help you somehow... *cough*

tomnobles

10-30-2008, 05:26 PM

Ghost Platypus

10-30-2008, 05:35 PM

one baker makes 6 bread

one & one half wheat workers to supply baker

6 - 1 1/2 = 4 1/2

4 1/2 - 1 for baker = 3 1/2

1 for resource worker = 2 1/2

Did I miss something or is my resource only costing 1 bread?

I outlined my line of reasoning, which looks like it matches koch's, in this thread (http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19632)

It's not that the resource worker only consumes one bread, it's a question of opportunity cost. Your worker is making one special resource instead of baking 2.4 bread--it's as if you paid 2.4 bread for that one resource.

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 05:39 PM

Aye, Captain Tom. It be balanced.

The Exchange requires workers? :rolleyes:

tomnobles

10-30-2008, 05:40 PM

ahh...ok.

sakasiru

10-30-2008, 05:41 PM

It's not that the resource worker only consumes one bread, it's a question of opportunity cost. Your worker is making one special resource instead of baking 2.4 bread--it's as if you paid 2.4 bread for that one resource.

Yeah, but 2.4 bread for a ressource is a good price, don´t you think? Try to find such rates at the market... ;)

It´s the ressources and luxwares everyone needs, not bread. So why should anyone bother with piling it up when he can produce something useful?

tomnobles

10-30-2008, 05:41 PM

Aye, Captain Tom. It be balanced.

The Exchange requires workers? :rolleyes:

Ship for the pirates. :)

tomnobles

10-30-2008, 05:42 PM

Ghost Platypus

10-30-2008, 05:47 PM

Yeah, but 2.4 bread for a ressource is a good price, don´t you think? Try to find such rates at the market... ;)

It´s the ressources and luxwares everyone needs, not bread. So why should anyone bother with piling it up when he can produce something useful?

Truth!

I say as much in this thread (http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19632) (~_^) that it's better for you to produce things and sell them than to just bake bread, if you're selling for more than the opportunity cost of production.

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 05:52 PM

Ship for the pirates. :)

Only while ship is being built? Or do we have to staff the ship too?

Oh, you might be interested in this. Just bought 10 cedar for 40 bread and another 5 for 25. Off the Free Market.

Just in case, of course. :D

EDIT: Not as good as my earlier 10 gold for 30 bread, but...

tomnobles

10-30-2008, 05:59 PM

Lucky stiff.

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 06:06 PM

Lucky stiff.

There was actually 5 groups of 10 cedar. When I clicked on the 2nd, it errored out as gone.

dialup, or I coulda been a contenda

the seller came back later with a 5

tomnobles

10-30-2008, 06:23 PM

Only while ship is being built?

Yes. You may want to have 26 cedar on hand though. And you probably should send them home when it's finished. If they indulge in skimming cedar may happen with bread also. :)

PhilL

10-30-2008, 08:18 PM

I am a emerald city and I feel the game in its current state favors this starting resource. Jewelry as the first lux needed for an upgrade that is attainable by all players keeps it in high demand. It seems that unless you level the palace up to 4 using 24 jewelry you really dont have the labor to produce your own resource effectively and grow your city at a steady pace.
The other lux goods will become coveted soon as players want to build second cities and build temples. but that is further into the game. This staement leads to this....
Another reason I feel jewelry is going to remain in a higher demand than the others is not all players will stick around long enough to even need the other lux goods. these types of games have many inactive players. especially if they run into a road block of needed jewelry that is hard to get.

My sug a while ago was make the lux good needed for the palace upgrades a lux good you cannot produce with your starting resource. this will even the damand for all lux goods thus giving everyone an equal starting point. Yes TM this will take a complete revamp of the balance you have worked hard at trying to obtain but for the success of the game I feel it is needed.

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 08:37 PM

This is a Map Position Lab, centered on my Nome of Amunka Image #2.

I went north until I hit Emeralds. That Nome is Bastnedj & shows at the top of image #1. The bottom of #1 is scrolled until it is the top of image #2. Image #3 likewise.

Going south, I didn't hit Emeralds until Basthenew. There are 8 Nomes between the north & south emerald Nomes w/o any emeralds. This takes a very evolved Market to see them, if you are in the middle, no? The northern Emeralds is 9 Nomes away from the southern emeralds.

Gold is pretty evenly distributed. Adding together all resources for the 26 imaged Nomes is perfectly equal.

4 Nomes with Bronze & Leather
3 Nomes with everything else

EDIT: Forgot the punchline, sorry. I count 8 resources, 2 per Nome. We should never have to go more than 2 Nomes north or south to find everything possible.

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 08:56 PM

My sug a while ago was make the lux good needed for the palace upgrades a lux good you cannot produce with your starting resource. this will even the damand for all lux goods thus giving everyone an equal starting point. Yes TM this will take a complete revamp of the balance you have worked hard at trying to obtain but for the success of the game I feel it is needed.

I read a post from Vic earlier that said that the Level 4 to 5 Palace upgrade requires 77 Jewelry. That makes the starting position even worse. The next level should not require jewelry at all. Something else, or the pro-jewelry resource Nome advantage continues.

King Faticus

10-30-2008, 08:58 PM

now it makes sense why gold is less valuable than emeralds
I was curious about that since they should be the same value...
but emeralds are more rare?

for such an important resource (jewelry) that everybody who just started will need
it sure is uncommon....

yes that's balanced ;)

King Faticus

10-30-2008, 08:59 PM

I read a post from Vic earlier that said that the Level 4 to 5 Palace upgrade requires 77 Jewelry. That makes the starting position even worse. The next level should not require jewelry at all. Something else, or the pro-jewelry resource Nome advantage continues.

I want the palace to require two resourses per lvl

each time a different resource lol

abnd jewelry can be the first needing 15! :mad:

Jeff Fiske

10-30-2008, 09:10 PM

There are equal amounts of the resources in the world. But they are concentrated in pockets up and down the Nile to encourage cultural interaction.

As far as someone who is too far away from gold or emeralds to directly see them, what about the person three nomes from the gold or emeralds and three away from the person who can't see them? He can buy emeralds at 10 or 15 and sell them at 20 to 30 without even being on emeralds. They are not even sitting on emeralds and they can buy low and sell high.

I am doing it right now with leather, so it can be done. I have people an hour+ away from me selling for 5, while others an hour south are selling it for 15. That is one way the gaps get filled. The other is once people start settling cities they should look around and see what resources they have easy access to- and where a nome is that had little.

Something might be coming for additional palace levels, but unlike other resources as the game goes on, jewelry has little use except to upgrade the palace(YES it is a VERY big use, I know. A use that is so important further corrections might be neccesary.) Don't forget the jewelry crash on the old server! (hint for those of you who were not there.)

PS- correct math on the bread value- now throw a few bonuses from divine blessing or specializations and numbers can get a little distorted.

King Faticus

10-30-2008, 09:19 PM

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 09:20 PM

There is another issue involved, Jeff. It is the people who have abandoned the Free Market & are now only going Private. They appear to be experienced alpha players using the private market exploit & they have a pro-jewelry position.

Was it your intent for the Free Market to be abandoned? The Free Market fee apparently is involved, along with the desire to eliminate the Bread as currency middleman. They are trading by ship on a one-for-one resource basis.

King Faticus

10-30-2008, 09:26 PM

Tink I'm not going to lie.. I have traded privately, but out of desperation.. I cannot afford jewelry and nobody even wants to buy my oil on the market
ohh except an oil producer in another node.. he bought it and jacked up the price... maybe he has a better market there...many of the cities near me are dead D:

I suggested adding a sort of tax on active ships I said 5 per but maybe 10 bread per hour per active ship... you DO need to feed the crews and you also need to pay for rights of passage.

PhilL

10-30-2008, 09:33 PM

except the emerald sellers aren't selling for 'low'
and when they do ... the emeralds sellers in the same node buy it and jack up the price

the reseller 2 nodes north will probably be able to snag a few now and then to resell but it won't be reliable

maybe adding a penalty for buying goods that you are producing in city and selling on the market will discourage that

A penalty for being resourceful. If someone lists a good at a price that is selling for 2 or more higher that is a mistake. any one can do this too. free market is based on supply and demand and buy low sell high.

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 09:34 PM

I have no problem with the Private Market, King, contrary to popular opinion. I'm just trying to save the Free Market. Perhaps it cannot & should not be saved. Just consider it an "early building"

It is an issue of balance to me. We are reading posts about trouble with jewelry to evolved the Palace for sufficient Laborers to reach the tipping point of being "ahead" to staff the important buildings.

I also believe that Noobs like me, sitting on emeralds are not even close to wanting jewelry yet. I just got my Palace to 3 today. I'm not even thinking of emeralds right now.

But I AM looking for cedar for a boat! The alpha people know something from their experience.

King Faticus

10-30-2008, 09:35 PM

exactly a penalty for shutting the doors on the new players who cannot afford ridiculous prices

not that I will use the so called market anymore
buh buy free market

King Faticus

10-30-2008, 09:48 PM

I have no problem with the Private Market, King, contrary to popular opinion. I'm just trying to save the Free Market. Perhaps it cannot & should not be saved. Just consider it an "early building"
I never said you were.. but it is unbalanced feeling to me too.. which is why I feel bad using it.
but how am I going to comment on it if I don't know how it works right?

But I AM looking for cedar for a boat! The alpha

actually I am trying to find a reliable source for cedar lol
if I find it I will let you know...

PS PM me your region and city name o_0

people know something from their experience.

yeah they do.. it's called each other..

Trade Federations....

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 10:06 PM

I still believe there are untapped emeralds out there, King. Noobs not even knowing how good they got it.

The Free Market was better today than yesterday, even better tonight than this morning.

I have hope!

Except for Vic bursting mah bubble with the 4-to-5 Palace needing 77 (triple the 24 going 3-to-4) Jewelry. Something needs to be done about that. 5-6 Palace needs triple triple or 3 x 77 = 231 Jewelry? :eek: :eek: :eek:

tomnobles

10-30-2008, 10:14 PM

5 to 6 palace requires 153 jewelry. 2 X 77 - 1.

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 10:54 PM

5 to 6 palace requires 153 jewelry. 2 X 77 - 1.

Oh, I feel much better now. :rolleyes:

Were you smirking when you posted that Tomnobles? ;)

Houston, we have a problem!

King Faticus

10-30-2008, 11:02 PM

are you bronze mark?

or emerald?

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 11:23 PM

I'm Bronze, King. Imported some cheap leather so I can make a soldier.

I'm a happy camper :D

Reed

10-30-2008, 11:25 PM

Some related changes should be going in tomorrow;

Palace will require less jewelry, but have a 2nd luxury good requirement. And trades will be taxed.

King Faticus

10-30-2008, 11:26 PM

Thank you Reed :D

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 11:28 PM

<bows to the God of the Nile Forum>

:)

King Faticus

10-30-2008, 11:50 PM

btw you never told me your city name... don't worry I'll find and harass you
your military can't stop my scribe messages!

Tinkerbell

10-30-2008, 11:59 PM

My city is Tinkerville in Amunka & I'm boycotting the Private Market both ways right now, King.

I have taken on the Go Free Market moniker! :D

We will see how long this Rebel can withstand the onslaught of the evil doers. ;)

Hyjynx

10-31-2008, 12:00 AM

all right - time to start my 9 page thread on how crappy the sandal market is... maybe I can get that changed.

:rolleyes:

King Faticus

10-31-2008, 12:04 AM

when people can afford to upgrade their cities then they will start wanting sandles

now that the greedy emmies have a ball and chain and the private trading is taxed

I think the economy will pick up

(or completely stop) lol

this can either be incredibly great or horrible o_0

Hyjynx

10-31-2008, 12:08 AM

Trislan

10-31-2008, 12:18 AM

all right - time to start my 9 page thread on how crappy the sandal market is... maybe I can get that changed.

Palace will require less jewelry, but have a 2nd luxury good requirement.

Obviously the solution is to make sandals the 2nd luxury good for palace building. Any connection between this proposal and my stockpile of leather is purely coincidental. :D

--Trislan (the Imelda Marcos of the Nile)

tomnobles

10-31-2008, 12:22 AM

Item (6), Paragraph 3 of the Primer still applies right?

Hyjynx

10-31-2008, 12:31 AM

guess not Tom.

Tasharil

10-31-2008, 12:38 AM

Thank you Reed, for listening and responding. I hope the changes make the game even better.

PhilL

10-31-2008, 12:53 AM

one thing i didnt say before about the free market is the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. It takes money to make money.

It can work the way it is if the players that dont have gold or emmys actually had a market for there finished goods. in this young world there are no players focusing on second or third cities to create that market. Therefore they have no leverage to raise their price to where thay can make real amounts of bread from them. And no real reason to even produce it. alot of players have taken to making their own jewelry buying both resources there for digging them selves into a hole by not producing what they can cheaply for a big profit. couple this with the fact that to have enough workers to actually have a decent lux factory it takes tons of bread bricks pots and baskets which divert the few workers they have from making the resource good. More workers in a level 3 palace coupled with a more productive wheat field may have satisfied this problem. allowing many things to happen.
1) they can produce their resource good with out sacrificing the basic goods needed for a growing city
2) players would have the bricks to build a temple, opening up a need for the lux good therefor a place to sell their finished goods the gods eat and giving them access to the +15% bonus on production.
3) a better wheat field and more workers allows them to produce more bread if needed to buy the other item needed for their lux item.
4) the items needed or the blessing seems fairly even creating an even distribution of demand unlike the palace upgrade that will focus the demand on one or now two resources.
5) by eliminating the palace upgrade as a first necessity makes the demand for lux goods more even.
6) these sugs place the burden on the player to get over the hump not at the mercy of an ever changing market.
7) it will make the temple a bigger part of the game more like actually egypt.

I think a second resource for the palace may be the answer but if that is a fixed item then there will be just another item that can be exploited.

coupled with this may be the need to raise the amount needed for the blessing to happen or scale it as more blessing happen. give it levels and increased prices for subsequent blessings.

King Faticus

10-31-2008, 12:58 AM

I think a second resource for the palace may be the answer but if that is a fixed item then there will be just another item that can be exploited.

should it be completely random or should it be a luxury that the city has some of the mats for?

I think that if they need a luxury good that they can produce it will encourage them to do so and maybe help open the market for these items too

Tinkerbell

10-31-2008, 01:07 AM

Depends on how much the tax is...

If it's more than the market cut for posting the wares (.1 bread per) - it will just go back to whispering back and forth, setting a time for a trade, and then cross-buying resources for .1 bread per like we were doing before we had boats.

Last I checked the World had 948 cities. How many alpha players were there? Sounds to me like we will beat your whisper campaign with number of players.

Item (6), Paragraph 3 of the Primer still applies right?

This part?

A large part of the gameplay is in interacting with other cities on the Nile. Both via the Market and by trading directly with other players. Also be sure to post any questions to this forum.

I noticed the very important word "both". ;)

King Faticus

10-31-2008, 01:15 AM

aeval99

10-31-2008, 02:59 AM

also it might be solved by only allowing reeds clay and wheat to be sold for .01

it would be impossible to make a profit for that much .. so no need to have it
(except to cheat and create pirate groups like Hijynx described)
best remove that too :p

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v35/aeval99/smileys/peepwalla.gif Please, not this again. I beg you not to go there! ;)

The whole point of having the messaging system in the game is so that you can socialize and trade with your friends and neighbours. It's not cheating, it's a regular part of the game.

And trades will be taxed.
We aren't going to have to pay tax to move things between our own cities are we? :eek:

King Faticus

10-31-2008, 03:11 AM

no no keep messages lol
socializing is a big part of the game ;)

remove exploits

Czech Centurian

10-31-2008, 03:30 AM

Over 1000 players now.

Hey Tinkerbell I'm across the river from you.

Beamup

10-31-2008, 05:28 AM

in this young world there are no players focusing on second or third cities to create that market.
Not at all - there are quite a few. Some are going that way before upgrading the palace, I bet the emerald producers are looking that way (apparently Tom's buying lots of luxuries, and my supposition is that it's looking towards a second city), and people who have gotten to level 4 are probably heading that way too - I know I am.

Czech Centurian

10-31-2008, 05:33 AM

I'm trying for level 4 but it seems that jewelry no longer exists. I was able to buy 5 yesterday.

Takana

10-31-2008, 05:36 AM

Some related changes should be going in tomorrow;
Palace will require less jewelry, but have a 2nd luxury good requirement.

Hurray! Many thanks Reed! :) That will surely liven up the market.

all right - time to start my 9 page thread on how crappy the sandal market is... maybe I can get that changed.
:rolleyes:

My precious Bastet needs sandals,... a lot!
(Women :rolleyes:)

Beamup

10-31-2008, 06:18 AM

My precious Bastet needs sandals,... a lot!
(Women :rolleyes:)
On sale @14 from Beamville in Osirispen! I'm actually taking a loss relative to selling the leather and putting the sandal/reed workers on bread, but it gets the market going.

Hyjynx

10-31-2008, 06:56 AM

Last I checked the World had 948 cities. How many alpha players were there? Sounds to me like we will beat your whisper campaign with number of players.

/tinfoil hat

Tink, What makes you think that the people who I have been trading with and the people who have been asking to trade with me are only members of the Alpha?

I'm really tired of this "us" vs. "them" thing going on. People who are willing to do the extra leg work and attempt to COMMUNICATE with their neighbors to barter a better deal are now shunned because you are unwilling to do the same?

Why do I have to buy everything with bread? My town doesn't make enough of it. But hey - people seem to want these sandals - wonder what I can get for one of those? Oh - Never mind. Just bread.

Takana

10-31-2008, 07:07 AM

On sale @14 from Beamville in Osirispen! I'm actually taking a loss relative to selling the leather and putting the sandal/reed workers on bread, but it gets the market going.

Sorry, my little lev4 market can't access it. :o

Anekdoten

10-31-2008, 07:22 AM

My precious Bastet needs sandals,... a lot!
(Women :rolleyes:)

Sandals I have, lovingly hand-crafted from the finest, softest, leather this side of the Nile... :)

Beamup

10-31-2008, 07:58 AM

I'm really tired of this "us" vs. "them" thing going on. People who are willing to do the extra leg work and attempt to COMMUNICATE with their neighbors to barter a better deal are now shunned because you are unwilling to do the same?
I agree that it isn't appropriate to focus on people - this is a beta, it shouldn't be about competition but rather making the game work better. My concern is that the current dominance of private trade has a negative impact on the game, due to the fact that it tends to exclude newer players and dabblers.

Why do I have to buy everything with bread? My town doesn't make enough of it. But hey - people seem to want these sandals - wonder what I can get for one of those? Oh - Never mind. Just bread.
You do realize that those two complaints are each others' solutions, right?

-----

I was thinking this morning that it would perhaps be a good design for the roles of the market and private trades to be more distinct - as the current situation shows, properly balancing two mechanisms that lead to the same result by very different means is extremely hard.

The idea I had was that the open market could handle one-time trades, while what you'd negotiate privately would be long-term contracts. Say, both parties would pay an up-front cost to seal a contract that Hennaport would supply X units of henna per hour to Kohlville, which would in turn supply Y units of kohl per hour back, for a week. If you let your stockpile and production drop low enough that you couldn't uphold your end of the bargain, the contract would be broken and you would pay a penalty to the other city.

Some mechanism to ensure that the entire supply of a resource didn't get tied up in such contracts might be needed.

Probably not something that would be considered at this point, but I figured I might as well throw it out there.

sakasiru

10-31-2008, 08:11 AM

Some mechanism to ensure that the entire supply of a resource didn't get tied up in such contracts might be needed.

You´re right, many mechanisms would be needed for this. But, why should they be there? If I want to trade henna for oil on a regular basis, I have to send my ships regularly. This is the price for my advantage to have a steady supply of oil coming in. If I´m not able to fulfill my part of the deal, I better hurry to send my trading partner a scroll or he will likely find someone else to trade with very fast, probably even telling other oil dealers that I´m not trustworthy. No need for bothering with a penality then...

I think this game doesn´t need so much regulations as are cried out for now, because it will regulate itself through the players playing it.

Those that want to trade in private will try to please their trading partners.
Those that don´t want private deals will soon populate the free market.
Those that are eager to rise in rank will spend much time in making good deals (either way or another).
Those who don´t care that much will be happy with slowly growing their city.

PhilL

10-31-2008, 08:34 AM

The market system is not broken. This is a balance issue. It is shame that the market/trade system is being adjusted because of a couple of people stomping around.
If you check todays market you will see that the supply/demand system is working. the price of emeralds and jewelry are dropping because people are starting to list more of them. This is how a free economy works.

Adding a tax to the world trade (using ships) will only make the price of goods go up. If I have to take into account the price of the tax when I complete my finished good I am going to pass it on to the end user.

For all of time there has been a barter system and for players to use this to acquire the goods needed to make the finished goods eliminating bread from the equation keeps the market flowing.

It was suggested to remove the .1 to stop some of the trading being done over the market when ships are not available yet. this will not stop any one. Again all it does is make the listing price higher thus causing a different way of taxing the transfer. Again going to be passed on to the end user.

Trade agreements have been in place for all of time. I have X and you need it you have Y and I need it lets trade. This is how most of the transfer of goods happened in ancient times. There was no money (read bread) being used.
The one for one trading on goods of equal level that is happening is an investment in the future. I can help my trade partner build up quicker so they can help me out with their finished good quicker.

What has multiplied the effect of the balance issue is the fact that there were previous trade agreements and friends doing this in alpha and the new players have not made these alliances........... YET.

We all have the same resources for this type of trading and agreements. Stop complaining "this is not a free market" and use the resources given to you. There is a reason the market only reaches so far and there are little (N) and (S) next to the names. maybe you can be a middleman in the market buying from the north and selling to the south at a higher price. the basis of a market system. Yes i know you may not have the bread to do this effectively. But that is not the market's fault nor is it the trading that is going out back behind the market's fault.It is that you cannot make extra bread to have the initial investments.Wheat field production is stopping you.
The small amount of laborers in a level 3 palace also is a factor keeping player from making extra bread to play with and slowing your production of the finished good easily available to you. This also limited the emerald/ gold producers thus the jewelry production creating a lack of goods available to the others that were not lucky enough to start there. Emmy/gold players had to hoard the jewelry to upgrade their palace first just to be able to build their own cities and have enough labor to produce extra.

I will repeat myself I do agree that jewelry is a powerful asset that needs to be adjusted. there are ways to fix this and it is not by handcuffing the market but by balancing the demand for the goods across the development of a city.

supply and demand works it is a proven fact. The day is coming for the higher demand for all the other goods. A smart player would see this and have been producing their respective good although at a trickle waiting for that day. Jewelry is dropping in price. It is only a week old this world be patient.

Jaguar

10-31-2008, 08:38 AM

I'm one of those people who is trying to get set for a second city, rather than upgrading my palace. The problem to me is that I had (and likely still have compared to thoseon emerald mines) very little bread to spare. I buy what I can when I can, but it's going to be a slow process for me.

Beamup

10-31-2008, 08:41 AM

The market system is not broken. This is a balance issue. It is shame that the market/trade system is being adjusted because of a couple of people stomping around.
This makes little sense to me. Yes, there's a significant balance issue. Whether balance problems constitute the system being "broken" is a judgement call, but I fail to see how adjusting the system to account for an acknowledged balance issue is a bad thing.

Aerosmith

10-31-2008, 08:47 AM

I think what he's trying to say (And correct me if I'm wrong, Phil) is that it's a balance issue due to everyone being at the same place. It's not the system that's unbalanced, it's the fact that the server is so new and everyone is in the same place.

Again, maybe he's not saying that, but that's how I feel about it.

-Aero out.

Beamup

10-31-2008, 08:49 AM

Ah, that would indeed clear things up. It's a balance issue, but not a balance issue in the market system so the market system is the wrong place to change it. That makes good sense; thanks for the explanation.

I do agree with that to some extent, but I also think that there's a balance issue in the market which needs to be addressed too.

PhilL

10-31-2008, 08:49 AM

This makes little sense to me. Yes, there's a significant balance issue. Whether balance problems constitute the system being "broken" is a judgement call, but I fail to see how adjusting the system to account for an acknowledged balance issue is a bad thing.

What I mean about balance is Not enough labor to produce extra stuff(bread/resources) to work with and jewelry is too high of demand. Handcuffing the market is not the solution to this.

Beamup

10-31-2008, 08:51 AM

What I mean about balance is Not enough labor to produce extra stuff(bread/resources) to work with and jewelry is too high of demand.
Thanks for explaining. I agree with the latter - too much front-loading of jewelry demand. The former I don't. Having to make hard decisions about what to do with your labor force is a good thing IMO.

sakasiru

10-31-2008, 09:28 AM

I'm one of those people who is trying to get set for a second city, rather than upgrading my palace.

Why, I´m doing both ;) Let´s see what goal I´ll achieve faster :rolleyes:

The problem to me is that I had (and likely still have compared to thoseon emerald mines) very little bread to spare. I buy what I can when I can, but it's going to be a slow process for me.

I also have little bread. Around 200 right now, and producing slowly.
But I don´t need bread other than to feed my workers (and piling up for my second city, of course). I buy what I need with Henna which I have plenty. I trade henna for oil, henna for kohl, henna for cedar, cedar for emeralds, perfume for gold, perfume for statues, perfume for sandals... - if someone´s out there who wants to sell me bricks, baskets or pottery for whatever you need, just drop me a note ;)

OhhJim

10-31-2008, 10:40 AM

When I first started the game, I thought I was going to be a Pharaoh. The Login Screen emphasizes this idea.

Now, I find I'm going to be a merchant/hustler. Sort of changes the game for me. If you want to be a merchant, that's fine. Not saying you shouldn't. The game will be fun for some that way. Maybe I will enjoy it, too, I'm just making an observation.

Reed

10-31-2008, 10:43 AM

King Faticus

10-31-2008, 04:58 PM

one thing that bothers me is the fact your city has no real needs other than to produce as much of x and Y resource as possible

the city doesn't feel like a city.. all I need to do is produce enough food to feed everybody and my people are happy slaving in my oil fields

maybe when your city starts growing it starts "consuming" small amounts of common goods like pottery and baskets

if you have none your population growth will suffer

maybe a slot for recreational buildings that the people demand at higher levels... and to run it requires a food upkeep ?

Czech Centurian

10-31-2008, 05:01 PM