I might have had my first rip off experience...

[Kashta]

trading. I am going to give the benefit of the doubt until this time tomorrow. I think we are growing close to the time to involve military in this great game. I know of only two ways to battle against a rip off artist in the trading arena at this time. One....do not trade with that pharaoh anymore (which is obvious). Number two is to splatter the name of the pharaoh, his or her nome and the names of his or her city or cities all over the message board and add the pharaoh's name to each scroll I send. The latter will happen tomorrow at this time if the deal is not squared away by then.

Introducing military to this game will make trading more interesting and will offer the chance at a more "expensive" price to pay for not living up to a trade. It would be nice to have a nome or "trading cartel" attack a pharaoh that is not living up his or her end of the deal.

This is in no way meant to be a "whining" post. I realize that it is part of the game. I just wish the price was higher for someone who decides to use this method of gain.

Again, this is a great game, I just think it is time to introduce the military and the role it will play in the game. Hopefully you will not hear from me tomorrow! ;)

Regards

Kashta

[goonsquad]

I might be wrong, but I don't think you are going to be allowed to attack other cities.

Perhaps with boat trade TM could consider implementing some sort of holding house arrangement, whereby the trade is agreed but not implemented until both parties deposit the goods, and both parties have a boat available, with a penalty imposed for reneging on an agreed trade, 50% of the penalty to the other player and the other 50% lost. It doesn't seem like it would be all that complicated a thing to do.

[Deadbuffalo]

I think I've had my first one as well, but I am giving them the benefit of the doubt until tomorrow as well.... I took a note of their current market purchases/sales and city levels since they haven't responded to me in over 24 hours. If i see that they're logging on without even having the decency to respond to tell me why they haven't fulfilled their end then it is my obligation to warn others of trading with this individual.

[PhilL]

cant wait to see the sticky post of bad traders. Wall of shame. ;)

these players will never own a monument....for long

[guru]

hey pm me the names of the baddies, ill just block them now. I would like to make a blacklist for sure.

[King Faticus]

I would rather see a list of known reputable traders because it is more useful to me when trying to find a stable trade partner than a spiteful blacklist would be :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[theohall]

A sticky Wall of Shame post would be cool.

Currently, I have had zero issues trading with anyone and most of my private trades were me fronting Cedar for ships. Everyone I've done this for honored their end.

Thanks to all of you!

Now we'll see what happens since I've founded my 2nd city and it produces Emeralds.

[philthe25th]

I like the risk involved in trading. It makes for more a social game. The holding house idea would be safer, but without some risk where's the fun? A wall of shame, though, might be misused. I could rip somebody off and then just call hima thief. Who's to say otherwise?

[King Faticus]

time to look at your messages and take screen shots...
then look in your history from the time you shipped them the item you both agreed to and take 50 more snapshots to cover every single item till this moment o_0


otherwise there is no proof anybody did anything wrong


I don't want to see peoples reputation slurred publicly without proof! (or at all really)
that kind of thing will encourage negativity(avoiding harsh words :p)

[kach]

Send them a reminder. I could easily forget that I owe some one a trade. I have lots of senior moments. ;)

[Czech Centurian]

Build warships and boycott his exchange, hint hint TM. ;)

[Michlo]

I might be wrong, but I don't think you are going to be allowed to attack other cities.

Perhaps with boat trade TM could consider implementing some sort of holding house arrangement, whereby the trade is agreed but not implemented until both parties deposit the goods, and both parties have a boat available, with a penalty imposed for reneging on an agreed trade, 50% of the penalty to the other player and the other 50% lost. It doesn't seem like it would be all that complicated a thing to do.

But that takes more control away from us. I think part of this game is the social experiment of us interacting. Whilst none of us want to be ripped off, it is the risk we take and those foolish enough to do it to us will pay the price. That is the point here, us controlling things, taking the risks, bringing in the punishments, etc.

Cheers.

[Nix]

I also think that rip-offs are a part of the game, the one that comes with trade. Trust is an important part of the game, as is diplomacy. If there are issues in game, handle it in game. I don't think public slander on the forum is a very good idea, for several reasons. For one, it might start flamewars. It might also very well be based on a misunderstanding. Perhaps one part thinks there is a deal, while the other does not - or maybe IRL complications hinders him from logging in. His black mark on the board will potentially destroy every chance of regaining his reputation. If it is handled IG, it is easier for him to slowly work that trust back. Also, it's not very relevant for those far away from said trader, and realistically news wouldn't travel that far on the Nile. I'm all for smashing his/her reputation IG, of course. :)

And of course, it will be a whole different thing when military/alliances are introduced.

[Kashta]

I have read all of your responses with interest and have decided that it is not in the best interest of the game to post the pharaoh's name and other pertinent information on this board. I agree, it should be taken care of in game. Rip offs are a part of the game and I agree with that.

I am hoping that we are given tools (military :D) to deal with bad traders. It just doesn't seem right that all can be done right now is not trade with said pharaoh and spam scroll about him or her in game.

I appreciate all of your feedback. Funny thing is the pharaoh in question offered to have me send all but 50 of the 200 gold I promised him. In return, he would send the entire 200 of bronze. Once I received the bronze, I could then send him the remaining 50 gold because he said he "had been ripped off before" and wanted to show good faith! :( I can't believe I fell for that one. Since then he or she has founded a second city that specializes in (you guessed it) GOLD!

By the way, I showed my good faith by sending the entire 200 gold first trip. :o

I guess that is shame on me!

Regards

[Deadbuffalo]

Having read Kashta's response and located him on the nile, I think we're dealing with the same person. I can also confirm that the player in question has logged on at least twice (one to found a new city, 2 to rename that new city) since the trade without responding, i have screen shots of this.

[Nix]

I can also confirm that the player in question has logged on at least twice (one to found a new city, 2 to rename that new city) since the trade without responding, i have screen shots of this.That's nice, but as I understand, said player is operating within the rules of the game, so the Devs can't/won't do anything about him (or so I assume). Better safe than sorry, of course. I would also second the suggestion to log and screen potential cheating for future reference.

[JuliaSet]

You might message other pharaohs in that area to not deal with that person until you get sorted. Be sure to message them back when it is repaired.

The person is going to be needing your goods again, and will pay the price when no one will want to trade with them.

[Deadbuffalo]

Oh i agree its in the rules of the game. I don't expect the devs to do anything nor do I consider it a game breaking issue.

However, I consider these forums part of the game-space, and me posting a warning here for other traders is part of the repercussions for in game behavior. What else can I do, scroll all his neighbors up and down the nile to warn them?

I'm also now about 99% confident Kashta and I are talking about the same person. But as there is a trade bug that would prevent the person from fulfilling their agreed trades at this moment, I can give them more time to straighten things out.

[mini-attacks]

I'd like to remind everyone to keep their emotions in check. I'd hate to have to see someone who had an unforeseen event (family emergency, broken computer, etc) happen only to come back and have his reputation dragged through the mud by people chomping at the bit.

I'd rather see a cautionary trade thread as opposed to a blacklist. It could be used by people who have a trade arrangement unfulfilled after several days or other such instances so to warn others to ask questions before the their own business with the person. In this case the person is at least more open to save face. This could become a real negative environment if continued with a "shoot and ask questions later" attitude.

I'd also like to see the military implemented in a much more thoughtful way than to raid others. The people of Tilted Mill have expressed that PvP would change the fundamentals of the game they had intended and there are other browser games if you're looking for that.

With a game that can be played so casual, I'm slightly interested if they make an enjoyable combat game of sorts.

[tomnobles]

Agreed!

Would be much better to forget about it and never darken their inbox again.

[Eplekongen]

I am very much against both public blacklisting and a list of reputable traders. Simply because both could be easily abused. What I think would be a good idea would simply to have a flagging system, much like you have on youtube. That way the mods (the police), could investigate the people that has been flagged the most and take appropriate action.

[Catshepsut]

I don't think black lists are a good idea. I'm sure there are a fair number of players who don't even use the forum (though that's a shame).

Personally, I've been keeping a list of players that I have traded with. And I will privately keep track if I ever have a bad deal take place. I would probably share that information with players that I know, or who are on my trading list, but I don't know how I would feel about scrolling everyone within a cerain range about not trading with that person.

Though if I think about it from the other perspective, if I got a scroll telling me about an untrustworthy player, I don't know what I would do about it. I might think the other player has something against the player, or maybe communication wasn't good. I don't know if I would immediately stop any trade with that person, but I would probably be very cautious.

Very sticky situation, to be sure.

[Kashta]

Deadbuffalo and I have private messaged and have verified that it is the same player. The same approach was used in my instance and his. This is really not a big deal (it is part of the game). I appreciate all of the input and ideas to keep this from happening again. I must agree, any kind of list (good or bad) would not help the matter any, and would probably make matters worse.

I am communicating with my normal trading partners about my situation and would suggest that anyone else would do the same if similar events happen to them. It will be very interesting to see how TM introduces the military feature in this game.

Some have indicated that PvP would take away from this game and I am in agreement with that. It would be nice if some political tactic could be introduced to the game that would give a pharaoh a tool to battle this event when or if it happens. In my opinion, this game is all about economics, and after all, what is economics without politics! :D

Keep the ideas coming in and thanks for all of your responses.

Regards

Kashta

[Ahdolfeus]

owned.

[Kashta]

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

I flushed him out! My goal has been reached! :p

Thanks again all!

Regards

Kashta

[Ahdolfeus]

QQ more

[lynnk]

Until there is a binding contract system which each person has to agree to - and which has penalties for people who do not mutually agree to break the contract - it will be necessay to have a special thread to name and shame dishonourable players and cheating thieves - it is easy for a shark to visit every city on the Nile if we help them by keeping their dirty secrets to ourselves and do not warn our neighbours...

[Deadbuffalo]

Thanks Adolpheus for identifying yourself. Basically I blame this bad trade on my naiveness. I had had such good experiences trading with most people that I didn't really think anyone would risk their trading reputation on a scam. Even someone who is playing as Adolpheu****ler. Anyway, i've included your scroll as a screenshot, and warn others to always make sure that you get payment first before trading with this player. I have no problem rescinding this comment if you return the payment for the goods you received.

I've also since received a scroll from another trading partner warning me of this player, so it is in my section of the Nile's best interest in informing the community. I also will not be buying any market items from this player, but I wouldn't go as far as to say "don't buy items from him". They are however overpriced and if you want I can get you the same from a number of other sources for cheaper.

[Kashta]

I will not be posting a screenshot of the reply I got. It did start with an "n"...just not the word never!

Regards

Kashta

[Ahdolfeus]

Thanks Adolpheus for identifying yourself. Basically I blame this bad trade on my naiveness. I had had such good experiences trading with most people that I didn't really think anyone would risk their trading reputation on a scam. Even someone who is playing as Adolpheu****ler. Anyway, i've included your scroll as a screenshot, and warn others to always make sure that you get payment first before trading with this player. I have no problem rescinding this comment if you return the payment for the goods you received.

I've also since received a scroll from another trading partner warning me of this player, so it is in my section of the Nile's best interest in informing the community. I also will not be buying any market items from this player, but I wouldn't go as far as to say "don't buy items from him". They are however overpriced and if you want I can get you the same from a number of other sources for cheaper.

sperg more whiny noob

[Ahdolfeus]

you betrayed me for the last time, adolpheus... *draws hanzo steel* those 200 fake browsergame gold will not be forgotten.

[Deadbuffalo]

troll more troll

[Ahdolfeus]

.ok

[Ahdolfeus]

oh no... now im feeling the remorse... my trading reputation... ruined... what am I going to do now without the support of the ten people who read the frikkin' forums...

[mini-attacks]

I am very much against both public blacklisting and a list of reputable traders. Simply because both could be easily abused. What I think would be a good idea would simply to have a flagging system, much like you have on youtube. That way the mods (the police), could investigate the people that has been flagged the most and take appropriate action.

I'd be very surprised if this game had more than 5 people working on it consistently, if not also on other projects. Your flagging idea is good enough that it not only applies to YouTube, but also other Massively Multiplayer Online games, where they even have their own departments whose soul purpose is to investigate crimes within the game (by tracking records of transactions and such). Now there are 24K+ registered users and a good percentage of them are playing or plan to play. That number dwarfs any single digit number of people monitoring this game.

Actual Point Here: you can't always rely on others.

I've suggested a civil trade experience thread as the possibly the best way to handle trade discrepancies. What seems to be a major issue with handing these types of situations is people are afraid of abuse of any system. Instead of being fearful, people need to confront this at the forefront. Of course the game will have hairy circumstances, what with the fact that Real Life Human Beings play this game, and these people are capable of anything philanthropic or misanthropic possible. This is an irrefutable, inexorable truth. With a civil trade forum thread, people can articulately express their situation without needless emotion to inform the game's forum reading masses (which is in fact a good amount and only growing!) of his or her recent trade mishap. People who would make slanderous posts would only shoot themselves in the foot. Even if a person was cunning and devious enough to make an eloquent, emotionless post of pure baseless defamation, that's where the reader's assessment skills would be put to use.

Any conduit relating to a game is technically part of the game. That includes not just this forum, but the entire internet and the world that uses it. The Civil Trade Experience Thread idea is capable of being abused. The game Immortal Cities: Nile Online is also capable of being abused. It'll be your choice how you handle those truths.

Also, I'd like for everyone to enjoy the gems that Ahdolfeus (lol) has already given us.

sperg more whiny noob

Day made.

[neferseti]

Hey. Whatever happened to "Bust A Deal--Face the Wheel"?

Uh, now I guess I don't need to put MY age in the Pharaoh/Pharaohess thread.

[dreadmime]

I think in some cases, real life takes over a Browser Game. :p That being said, I always try to be prompt and courteous with my trades, and if I can't immediately trade an item, to give a rough idea of when I should be able to.

Edit: An addendum would be a possible "Market Style" Trading system for trades rather than just "Sir, would you like to ship 200 bricks into the Ether?" *goes to make a suggestion*

[OhhJim]

What kind of idiot rips people off...in a BETA?!? :confused:

It's all going away, soon, anyway.

[Devlik]

Thanks Adolpheus for identifying yourself. Basically I blame this bad trade on my naiveness. I had had such good experiences trading with most people that I didn't really think anyone would risk their trading reputation on a scam. Even someone who is playing as Adolpheu****ler. Anyway, i've included your scroll as a screenshot, and warn others to always make sure that you get payment first before trading with this player. I have no problem rescinding this comment if you return the payment for the goods you received.

I've also since received a scroll from another trading partner warning me of this player, so it is in my section of the Nile's best interest in informing the community. I also will not be buying any market items from this player, but I wouldn't go as far as to say "don't buy items from him". They are however overpriced and if you want I can get you the same from a number of other sources for cheaper.

I lost 500 leather out of it *shrug* same guy. Figgure honestly this is just why there should be a secured trade system in game. However, anyone near me got 500 bronze for 500 leather?

-Dev

And I am actually glad he is scamming in beta it shows the devs just how prevalent this will become golive. I hope they find a better way to secure transactions.

Suggestion:
Allow others to pay in something other than bread in the market.

[Reed]

I would definitely not recommend trading in such high quantities with players you don't know. Start off relatively small, so if they turn out to be an evil Pharaoh, then you don't lose too much. Part of the trading game is building up trusted clientele or networks.

[Torgen]

I have to say that I'm surprised that Reed didn't say "If you don't want to risk being scammed, use the Public Market" ;)

[abana]

What about a rating system, similar to ebay, I think that if the accusation were false that might be the only negative comment, But if I see that someone has a lot of black marks. I won't trade.

And I have been the one that has "cheated" someone, if you are one, please believe me it was an honest mistake and I have always tried to correct it.

[mini-attacks]

I have to say that I'm surprised that Reed didn't say "If you don't want to risk being scammed, use the Public Market" ;)

Maybe because a person doesn't feel satisfied telling someone else to not play part of their game, even if it is optional...

[Hottenshot]

Build warships and boycott his exchange, hint hint TM. ;)

now is the time to introduce gunpowder and cannon for the ships(:D:D:eek:) I have had a rip off also and want to embargo the person and fill their port with warships....... Not really but there should be some way to let all others know of a problem player and a way to boot out the worst ones.

[Torgen]

Well, DeepSeaSeamus seems to have ripped some folks off tonight. I send him 300 sculptures for 300 jewelry at 5:48pm server time. He says "I'll be sending it in five minutes when my ships get back", then ten minutes later wants to make a deal for 300 cosmetics. I check, and he hasn't shipped the first load yet. I wait a half hour, send a reply to the request for a second deal asking where my jewelry is, he says he'll be sending it in 8 minutes.

I log in an hour later into trade chat, there are other people whom he's swindled asking for -their- goods, and still nothing sent to me. It's now been over three hours, and no jewelry on the way and no scrolls/no explanation.

[JuliaSet]

Thanks for the name. I work too hard for my lux, bread and bricks. I'd not like to get a bad feeling about the game by a run in with that type of trader.

Soon he wont have anyone to trade with and have to use the market only.

[Amun]

Well, DeepSeaSeamus seems to have ripped some folks off tonight. I send him 300 sculptures for 300 jewelry at 5:48pm server time. He says "I'll be sending it in five minutes when my ships get back", then ten minutes later wants to make a deal for 300 cosmetics. I check, and he hasn't shipped the first load yet. I wait a half hour, send a reply to the request for a second deal asking where my jewelry is, he says he'll be sending it in 8 minutes.

I log in an hour later into trade chat, there are other people whom he's swindled asking for -their- goods, and still nothing sent to me. It's now been over three hours, and no jewelry on the way and no scrolls/no explanation.
Yep I'm waiting for jewelry from him too. It was really quite funny as there was like 6 of us all in the trade channel discussing the situation, all of who had traded with him and not gotten the jewelry back he promised.

He stated all his ships are busy, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for another 24hr... But honestly, who scrolls people for trades when all their ships are in use? :(

[goonsquad]

I get the feeling ripoffers are a bit like PK's in RPG's. They are annoying and a risk, but game dev's love em and would not for a minute consider anything that will prevent them being able to operate.

[physikal]

Torg and Amun, let me know when you receive your goods. Then I will send him his. He sent me 175 leather. So I have some leverage. Keep me posted please. Physikal is the name in game. (This is regarding DeepSeaSeamus)

[Amun]

Torg and Amun, let me know when you receive your goods. Then I will send him his. He sent me 175 leather. So I have some leverage. Keep me posted please. Physikal is the name in game. (This is regarding DeepSeaSeamus)
Rightio will do.

[physikal]

Ok so I spoke too soon. I didnt really check ship logs before I posted that. However, check this out.


RIMMERDALL (154N) [9:36 pm] » it might be a busy server here too did u ever try mozilla
DeepSeaSeamus (133S) [9:35 pm] » apple safari
RIMMERDALL (154N) [9:35 pm] » what browser do u have seamus
DeepSeaSeamus (133S) [9:34 pm] » my game keeps lagging and bugging out when trying to do things. ALL ORDERS will be fulfilled tomorrow, its not my fault its either my ISP or this game beta state. Thanks for your patience.
RIMMERDALL (154N) [9:32 pm] » hello brazNomar
Ramsthese (149N) [9:31 pm] » I'm going to enjoy when they enforce direct trades... emeralds for gold, send me a scroll
Physikal (22N) [9:28 pm] » WTS 200 bricks.

Notice what he says about his issues. THEN, he proceeds to send me scrolls back and forth.....not once mentioning that he will have to send goods tomorrow.

Phys: Considering your current feedback I think I'd rather see your shipment first :D

-----------------------------------------------
Deep: hmm im not seeing your shipment, waiting on you

-----------------------------------------------
Phys: They don't seem to be coming in. When do you plan on sending?

-----------------------------------------------
Deep: 175 leather sounds good. Sending now mate

-----------------------------------------------
Phys: Looking for 1k bread or 175 leather.


-----------------------------------------------
Deep: hey i have all lux goods what u need for the 200

Funny how he says sending now....but he's bugged? Then when I call him out on it...he says he's waiting on me....

This dude is definitely ripping people off. He is now "alllied" with a note of: First target when military is implemented.

[Rama-Seph]

He is now "alllied" with a note of: First target when military is implemented.

Hate to disappoint, but armies will not apparently be used to attack other cities. They will be for taking and holding monument sites. The 'revenge' part might be that this guy will be so unpopular he won't be able to hold one long (his neighbors could gang up to drive him out) but his city(ies) at least will be safe.

[Anodyne]

I just send this guy 300 cosmetics. I'll let you know if he comes through. But, really, with all the 'trades' he's made tonight, if he doesn't hold up his end of the deal he'll never make another trade in chat again.

[thespian]

I was trying to get a handle on how much Seamus owes; none of his trades were for less than 100, and there were as least 4 people known to have been ripped off by him who were not on game when I started.

(edited for amounts):

I found he has promised 1375 (which includes an assumption that the 3 I couldn't reach were all trades of 100; none of his trades have been for less than that) jewelry to people. These are the trades I could find. There are at least 900 more units that were promised but that people waited to see him send first.

He has also 'promised' to send a bonus 10% to everyone as an apology. Tomorrow. From his level 4 city.

Thespinetru (112S) [10:28 pm] » Now, after he said here on *channel* that all hs ships were tied up, he offered me to trade for bricks.
DeepSeaSeamus (133S) [10:29 pm] » WHAT
DeepSeaSeamus (133S) [10:29 pm] » no i didnt thespneru stop slandering my name
Ramsthese (149N) [10:29 pm] » trading emeralds for gold and henna, DeepSeaSamus don't send me a third scroll
DeepSeaSeamus (133S) [10:30 pm] » stop being so hasty mates all will be solved tomorrow and we will all do deals in the future
Thespinetru (112S) [10:30 pm] » [From: DeepSeaSeamus] bricks [11/21 @ 9:08 pm]
DeepSeaSeamus (133S) [10:30 pm] » thanks for faking that
DeepSeaSeamus (133S) [10:30 pm] » seriously you have no respect
mootant (44N) [10:31 pm] » deepseaseamus you are a scammer, you have a level 4 palace and only 1 city, you can't pay anyone

Please note that the log shows *while* people were discussing this in depth on the channel, he was still spamming people trying to get more trades.

this is the screen shot of the scroll (http://sleepingcat.com/games/nileonline/deepdoodoo.png), linked to avoid making it too small to see the timestamp.

Excuses served so far:


he claimed they'd been sent and he had no idea why people were *****ing.
he tried to blame his shipments not going out on the game being beta...
he tried to blame his shipments not going out on Safari...
he tried to blame his shipments not going out on both in an evil conspiracy
about half an hour after this he claimed he'd never tried to blame it on Safari, which is a 'good browser'
then he said he'd just miscalculated.


Later he claimed that 'some miscalculations and game breaking bugs are to blame mate'. So I asked 'and your excuse for saying I was faking a scroll you sent me is....?'

I bet it was a bug. It was certainly a...miscalulation.

Thes.

(Thespinetru)

[Amun Nefer]

I traded him 75 sandals for 75 jewelry pieces, just want to make sure that this is on record.

This was around 6:00 PM on the 21st of November 2008. Just want to make sure the location of all the details are recorded.

Again, I do not believe I have been scammed or anything like that, I am certain my goods will arive, I just want a text record, in the event they are lost or anything similar

[Hottenshot]

trading. I am going to give the benefit of the doubt until this time tomorrow. I think we are growing close to the time to involve military in this great game. I know of only two ways to battle against a rip off artist in the trading arena at this time. One....do not trade with that pharaoh anymore (which is obvious). Number two is to splatter the name of the pharaoh, his or her nome and the names of his or her city or cities all over the message board and add the pharaoh's name to each scroll I send. The latter will happen tomorrow at this time if the deal is not squared away by then.

Introducing military to this game will make trading more interesting and will offer the chance at a more "expensive" price to pay for not living up to a trade. It would be nice to have a nome or "trading cartel" attack a pharaoh that is not living up his or her end of the deal.

This is in no way meant to be a "whining" post. I realize that it is part of the game. I just wish the price was higher for someone who decides to use this method of gain.

Again, this is a great game, I just think it is time to introduce the military and the role it will play in the game. Hopefully you will not hear from me tomorrow! ;)

Regards

Kashta

I think there should be a shame/praise board attached to each city so the bad eggs would show up. Maybe it could be as simple as some kind of color spot or bar that would show good/bad feedback..;)

[CppThis]

Feedback/karma/whatever would be nice, but what we really need is some sort of contract option for direct trade so if it's a limited trust situation, you acn pay a small fee like 10 bread or something and have the trade sit in escrow until both sides have lived up to their end of the deal.

If every other online game is any indication, we'll have a *lot* more scammers once it goes gold and has a real player population.

[Amun Nefer]

Well, I think that there should be some sort of record of the trade, basically what was sent, and what you expected to get back, or something similar to that effect.

[CppThis]

Also, this is kind of random but I'd like to be able to filter the event log by category. I've a feeling one of these days I'll inadvertently screw over a trading partner because their end of the bargain got lost in the spam of market orders and city upgrades. :(

[shasamrat]

I'd really like a sortable game log, so that it's easier to sort out the trades, and one that doesn't expire after 5 days (maybe it could have tabs for sent, received, built/upgraded, and run out of supply warnings).

But I don't think contracts are so necessary. There's an element of risk, but I keep a list of reputable and blacklisted traders in Notepad, right under my list of planned upgrades and requirements and current market prices. That seems to take care of the problem.

As for DeepSeaSeamus, I'd like to believe he has good intentions, but while I was on the trade board reading all this s**t about him, he asked me to trade my gold, no mention of a delay. When I asked him to send first and prove himself honest, he never replied. He changed his story a lot and I don't see how he could have the production levels and capacity for all this trading unless he's running on multiple accounts or something.

[shasamrat]

Aw, Cpp beat me to the punch on categorizable event logs. ;)

[Amun Nefer]

Aww, I was really looking forward to that jewelry too... :( (my palace slaves were really looking forward to their new decroations)

[Deguar]

Visit wwvw.deguakay.dodgydomains.lux.sellers we ofer much lux goods for Nile Online, 50 lux for 5$. Set up account wif us today. Fastest shipping from multiple nomes.

~grin~

Deguakay

[mootant]

Deepseaseamus was spamming everyone for trades. Things that stood out:

He had at least 5 ongoing trades when he scrolled me
He had 1 city and a level 4 palace at that
Wanted to trade in large quantity of lux goods

He asked to trade a large quantity so I asked him to send the goods first, he said he would in 5min and then ignored all scrolls from that point. Luckily I saw the warning signs.

edit: removed Awrenma, he completed trade deal and I sent an extra 10% per the agreement.

[Vericees]

... 'Awrenma' (I could be wrong about him, 1 city level 3 palace with Henna) already asking me to trade cedar for oil and emeralds. If I am wrong about him and he sends the goods I'll edit this post. He just sent me a scroll saying his ships are not ready yet (just like deepseaseamus!)

Well, I just began an Emerald-Henna trade agreement with him, 50/day, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt - that kind of trade agreement is something that would make a bad scamming tactic.

**EDIT** Awrenma has shipped me the goods he promised, so he/she checks out. =)

[Amun]

Aww, I was really looking forward to that jewelry too... :( (my palace slaves were really looking forward to their new decroations)Mine too :mad:

[mootant]

I have offered Awrenma a 10% bonus if he lives up to his end of the deal (so he is getting the benefit of the doubt), but to start trades without ships ready and not letting the other party know that, bad move.

[CppThis]

But I don't think contracts are so necessary. There's an element of risk, but I keep a list of reputable and blacklisted traders in Notepad, right under my list of planned upgrades and requirements and current market prices. That seems to take care of the problem.

For now, yes, this will work for our little 3000 person beta. But what happens when the game goes gold? Remember, it'll be wiped which means dead market for a while. And a lot more scammers, as they usually show up en masse as soon as there's a lot of people to annoy.

[King Faticus]

try trading smaller quantities at first (to new unproven trade partners) and 'slowly' work your way up to 500 per o_0

[Carolyn Horn]

As someone who gets muddled easily, suffers from senior moments a lot due to Real Life mind-bending days, and doesn't want to deal with military in games, I thought I'd add my input on this.

I see no harm in a list of traders with whom one should be cautious. People such as myself can easily forget about a trade, given the slowness of play and the fact that one logs off rather a lot during the game-play. I don't think that I have neglected any of my obligations, but I cannot be sure. So a list which says that this or that trader is not very dependable, and that you should ask for their part of the bargain to be fulfilled first, is no bad thing -- it keeps people such as myself on track as well as protecting you against malicious traders.

I think a list of very good traders is a good idea too, people that you know you can depend upon.

And finally, I really do hope that any military part of this game will not allow people to attack other cities. Some people might want to do this from a sense of outrgage, but others would wish to attack because they like confrontation and winning.

Just my take on things.

[sakasiru]

I think the people who think they make a benefit out of betraying someone will get some serious problems later. At a certain level, you absolutely need ongoing deals. I wouldn´t have the time to mail every day to several people begging for hundreds of oil, kohl and gold. So in the end, a gain of 50 emeralds out of screwing someone is nothing compared to the lost chance to find a trading partner in your neighbourhood. Sure, you can try it further away, but you never know how far the word already spread that you´re not trustworthy.

That means, ripping someone off gives you a fair risk of not being able to play in the upper ranks ever. Some should consider if 50 or 100 units of something are worth this. ;)

[CppThis]

And finally, I really do hope that any military part of this game will not allow people to attack other cities. Some people might want to do this from a sense of outrgage, but others would wish to attack because they like confrontation and winning.

Reed has made it pretty clear that combat will be monument-only to avoid turning Nile into yet another lame cookie-cutter farmfest.

As for karmic justice, I'm not sure that will happen particularly with many more players, since you really only need to have one or two people working with you (multi? not hard if you're okay with being a jackass), some proper strategic planning of secondary cities and you've got your own little self-sufficient empire.

[Agamemnus]

For now, yes, this will work for our little 3000 person beta. But what happens when the game goes gold? Remember, it'll be wiped which means dead market for a while. And a lot more scammers, as they usually show up en masse as soon as there's a lot of people to annoy.

I seriously agree with taking out the trust system soon. For now, as a temporary band aid, I suggest banning DeepSeaSeamus and his IP, immediately. He is trying to scam everyone in the trade wall, and he even tried to scam me today after I accused him of scamming yesterday.


DeepSeaSeamus's cities: its rubbish mate lol (133S)

sorry you have to ship first, ive been scammed a lot lately and my city cannot handle the loss
-----------------------------------------------
Send me the sandals, and I'll send you the gold.

-----------------------------------------------
i got the sandalds mate, the deal taken?

[Maktiel]

I seriously agree with taking out the trust system soon. For now, as a temporary band aid, I suggest banning DeepSeaSeamus and his IP, immediately. He is trying to scam everyone in the trade wall, and he even tried to scam me today after I accused him of scamming yesterday.

Definitely, the trust system will not work in the long term. Its the internet, if theres a system where theres no repurcussions built into the system people will Scam.

I suppose though it depends if Tilted Mill feel people should be allowed to scam each other or not, could be intended that you can either use the market for safety or hope to trade for added value.

[King Faticus]

on the positive side.. at least it got a discussion going.. and it shows that people are putting emotion into the game.

emotion is good

[Amun Nefer]

I think that on a person's profile there should be a badge for a reliable trader, like the "Eye of Horus Seal of Fair Trading" or something similar to that effect. If the person is under question, put the "Mark of Set," which also means they're (the person in question) is up for deletion if they continue.

I feel like an idiot for placing trust in someone and then having them violate that trust and take something that was mine in the process (the jewelry still never came, so I'm past saying it wasn't a scam). I know it just a couple sandals in an online game, but it was still not right.

[Maktiel]

I think that on a person's profile there should be a badge for a reliable trader, like the "Eye of Horus Seal of Fair Trading" or something similar to that effect. If the person is under question, put the "Mark of Set," which also means they're (the person in question) is up for deletion if they continue.

I feel like an idiot for placing trust in someone and then having them violate that trust and take something that was mine in the process (the jewelry still never came, so I'm past saying it wasn't a scam). I know it just a couple sandals in an online game, but it was still not right.

But you should have expected it to an extent, all of you, you can't just expect people to be trustworthy in this context and there isn't a rule anywhere posting it shouldn't be done. Not saying its justified, but if someone can they will.

As people through the thread have mentioned don't trade valuable goods to people who you can't inherently trust. Deadseawhatever had one city, level 3, etc. Not likely to be able to fulfill all the trades he had going on.

Really just err on the side of caution. Until we're told its not allowed or games mechanics exist to circumvent it its gonna happen. Just be careful and don't trust random people you've never met and never will on an internet game :P

[Amun Nefer]

You do have a point. I guess investigate the trader before you actually give them some expensive stuff. Lol, I'm surprised I got ripped off in a game about Egypt, whereas actual Egyptians (when I visisted the BEAUTIFUL Arab Republic of Egypt) were completely unable to rip me off:D. lol

[Alyeska]

Hey there, not a common poster but felt I should add something to this.
I should note, out of 2000+ people playing the game, so far we have but a handfull of scamers. Yes its quite anoying, but, to be honest, we have a very low percentage of scamers.
Now true, once it goes big time, the scamers will show up more, and the sell sites as well.
Sadly perhaps, untell the scaming reaches a higher level, there really is no need for TM to do much about it as yet. Yes it bites big time, but, there really is not a major need for them to deal with it yet. Just keep making a note on the folks doing it, and pass the word.

Alyeska

[Kashta]

I originated this thread after being scammed for the first time in this game. Things I've learned since then:

1. I think it is part of the game. There needs to be some degree of uncertainty when trading direct. It gives the opportunity to gain or lose trust in someone.

2. I realize this is a beta community but it is a rather close community and in my instance and this past instance many people have come to each others aid to help solve (blacklist, call the person out, etc) the problem and bring a problem trader to light.

3. Nomes could be an integral part of the solution. Maybe a nome forms it own trade cartel and "questionable" traders must go through a pharaoh in the nome to complete a trade. For example, I trade with a "questionable or unfamiliar trader", I give my product to a designated person in my nome. The other trader must give his product to that same pharaoh in the nome and once that pharaoh has the "unfamiliar" traders product, the deal can be completed. I realize this is not a perfect solution, but I think these ideas and others will make for interesting "politics" if pharaohs can get their nomes to be active and operate somewhat politically as a nome. After all, we are already giving to the god in our nome anyway for a production increase.

4. Be creative. Dealing with "questionable" traders can actually be fun and a challenge. My only goal in dealing with my situation was to cause the pharaoh in question to come out in the open without mentioning his name. I did that and it was very rewarding. By the way, his city is now inactive last time I checked! hehe!

[Maktiel]

By the way, his city is now inactive last time I checked! hehe!

Only problem there is he probably loaded all the looted stuff onto ships and moved them to a new account which hasn't suffered any loss of reputation!

[Amun Nefer]

Just look out for anyone using "mate" a lot:mad:. Except me, since I use it form time to time.:D

[Kashta]

You're probably right but as I said, my only goal was to get him to come out without mentioning his name. Again, I still believe it is an "interesting" part of the game to say the least! :-)

[Amun Nefer]

lol, interesting..... until you lose stuff. lol

[BrazNomar]

emotion is good

Well, yeah... but not always.

[Amun Nefer]

lol, yeah, it can lead to an explosion of cursing and death threats.

[Agamemnus]

Only problem there is he probably loaded all the looted stuff onto ships and moved them to a new account which hasn't suffered any loss of reputation!

I doubt it. He only had 4 ships, as he said. He may have been lying but it wouldn't have been much more.

He still seems very much active though.

[Kashta]

Aga I agree Dead is still active...hehe! Maktiel and I were talking about the pharaoh that scammed me which started this thread. That pharaoh is inactive now.

[Sandra Linkletter]

DeepSeaSeamus is at this very moment in Trade, claiming to have shipped all deals to date. Anyone on the thread here see a ship of his on the way?

[Carolyn Horn]

But you should have expected it to an extent, all of you, you can't just expect people to be trustworthy in this context and there isn't a rule anywhere posting it shouldn't be done. Not saying its justified, but if someone can they will.


What puzzles me is, why? I mean, what is it that makes people playing a game -- just a game, although lots of fun -- want to scam and grab and cheat and upset people? I'm serious, I have not got a lot of experience with online games and I really don't understand what makes people so desperate to
do such things. I can see why people thieve and use con-tricks in real life, although of course I think it's rotten to the core, but I simply don't see what makes them want to do the same in a game where everything is not in fact real and where it's free anyway.

*wanders off feeling very old indeed*

[Anodyne]

DeepSeaSeamus is at this very moment in Trade, claiming to have shipped all deals to date. Anyone on the thread here see a ship of his on the way?

No. My stuff is not in transit. :(

[DeepSeaSeamus]

Hey mates, Deep Sea Seamus here.

Theres been a lot of talk here about some issues I had a while back, and I here to reassure you all that theres no problem at all!

Most orders have been shipped this morning, except a few which will get fulfilled within 20 minutes. Also, I have instituted a 15% bonus on ALL late orders.

All of this rubbish was caused by some miscalculations that I made, and some missed goods that others still won't send me. I know what it feels like to be robbed here mates, thats why I am giving the 15% bonus. Funny how being scammed leads to other think you are scamming them. I assure you that I have reworked my methods and my calculations will be solid in the future. Also, I'm instating a method where I will always insist on shipping first. Even if it means I lose some goods now and then, my reptation is whats important here.

Thats about it... I'm sure we are all gonna get along great in the future and have many more great deals. I apologize for any bad feelings but I must stress that it was not entirely my fault. Cheers.

[Sandra Linkletter]

What puzzles me is, why? I mean, what is it that makes people playing a game -- just a game, although lots of fun -- want to scam and grab and cheat and upset people? I'm serious, I have not got a lot of experience with online games and I really don't understand what makes people so desperate to
do such things. I can see why people thieve and use con-tricks in real life, although of course I think it's rotten to the core, but I simply don't see what makes them want to do the same in a game where everything is not in fact real and where it's free anyway.

*wanders off feeling very old indeed*

*hugs Carolyn*

They do it in online games where it's easy, because they want to do it in RL but aren't capable. For the same reason that some want to play heroes, they want to play hurting people. Most people can't be RL heroes, and these others, for whatever reasons, can't hurt people in RL in the ways that they want to.

[Carolyn Horn]

*hugs Carolyn*

They do it in online games where it's easy, because they want to do it in RL but aren't capable. For the same reason that some want to play heroes, they want to play hurting people. Most people can't be RL heroes, and these others, for whatever reasons, can't hurt people in RL in the ways that they want to.

*hugs back at ya*

Ah! I see. they are the failures of Real Life. Maybe we should feel sorry for them then *ducks rotten tomatoes etc* Shame they have to mess things up for people who simply enjoy a quiet bit of playing and some virtual interaction.

Ah well, I really have to stop for the night! It may be virtual, but this game is far too addictive ;)

[Maktiel]

*hugs Carolyn*

They do it in online games where it's easy, because they want to do it in RL but aren't capable. For the same reason that some want to play heroes, they want to play hurting people. Most people can't be RL heroes, and these others, for whatever reasons, can't hurt people in RL in the ways that they want to.

I dunno so much about they want to do it in real life. I think its more so that they can "win", there accountants or something equally boring in real life but online in the fake world they can win, succeed, get ahead, in ways the capitalist world quite condones.

[Agamemnus]

I dunno so much about they want to do it in real life. I think its more so that they can "win", there accountants or something equally boring in real life but online in the fake world they can win, succeed, get ahead, in ways the capitalist world quite condones.

For a moment I thought you were talking about me there. :(

[Torgen]

If *anyone* has seen promised goods from Seamus, I'd like to know. Nothing here at all, and he's receiving the 300 sculpture he ripped off from me in 3 and and half hours (24hr trip.)

[Sandra Linkletter]

I dunno so much about they want to do it in real life. I think its more so that they can "win", there accountants or something equally boring in real life but online in the fake world they can win, succeed, get ahead, in ways the capitalist world quite condones.

Most accountants I know are fairly successful in RL, although I agree that the book-keeping aspect is fairly boring.

I also disagree that the capitalist world condones fraud. Lawyers make it hard to pin people down, but the law does not condone it.

[Maktiel]

For a moment I thought you were talking about me there. :(

Ack, no! That would have been a bit mean :eek:

[Agamemnus]

Ack, no! That would have been a bit mean :eek:

I'm just trying to point out that there's a distinction between capitalism and greed.

[Maktiel]

I'm just trying to point out that there's a distinction between capitalism and greed.

That would depend if you followed a theoretical or a practical distinction ;)

[King Faticus]

when people take/'steal' everything you earn away from you... it isn't called Capitalism..... :eek:

Socialism

[Maktiel]

when people take/'steal' everything you earn away from you... it isn't called Capitalism..... :eek:

Socialism

Naah, if it was Socialism, you wouldn't have anything to have taken in the first place :p

And nothing was taken or stolen in legal terms. It was given on the assumption things would be returned, so more a reciprocal agreement gone wrong. On Topic, has anyone recieved any goods from Deadseaseamus yet?

[King Faticus]

Naah, if it was Socialism, you wouldn't have anything to have taken in the first place :p
:eek::eek: ohhh.. darn.. your right! *checks fact sheet again*



It was given on the assumption things would be returned, so more a reciprocal agreement gone wrong.
I was joking D:

[carye1]

Maybe we should be able to call back our ships. So if the other party doesnt send their wares, we stop them before they arrive at their destination.

[King Faticus]

but then they could do the same thing?
turn back the goods just before they arrive (while your not looking) and stealing your goods?

[Amun]

Still waiting for my 100 perfume Mr DeepSeaSeamus.

[Amun Nefer]

Greed is when you give someone an unfair deal.

Edit: Yay, I'm a villager now! lol

[Agamemnus]

Greed is when you give someone an unfair deal.

Edit: Yay, I'm a villager now! lol

That's true. Greed is not scamming -- but scamming can be caused by greed.

[Amun Nefer]

Well, I think most scams come from greed. Unless of course the person really needs money. That happens alot in modern Egypt because the people are very poor there.

[DeepSeaSeamus]

Cheers mate

[Torgen]

Hey mates, Deep Sea Seamus here.

Theres been a lot of talk here about some issues I had a while back, and I here to reassure you all that theres no problem at all!

Most orders have been shipped this morning, except a few which will get fulfilled within 20 minutes. Also, I have instituted a 15% bonus on ALL late orders.

All of this rubbish was caused by some miscalculations that I made, and some missed goods that others still won't send me. I know what it feels like to be robbed here mates, thats why I am giving the 15% bonus. Funny how being scammed leads to other think you are scamming them. I assure you that I have reworked my methods and my calculations will be solid in the future. Also, I'm instating a method where I will always insist on shipping first. Even if it means I lose some goods now and then, my reptation is whats important here.

Thats about it... I'm sure we are all gonna get along great in the future and have many more great deals. I apologize for any bad feelings but I must stress that it was not entirely my fault. Cheers.

This was posted at 1:42pm. It is now 3:52 pm. Nothing from Seamus. No goods on the way, no scroll.

[Anodyne]

This was posted at 1:42pm. It is now 3:52 pm. Nothing from Seamus. No goods on the way, no scroll.

Same here. He still owes me 300 jewelry.

[BLU3Y3Z]

I never traded with him but on the chat room thing about 4 peopel talking about him oweing a really lot of jewelry or purfume all by DeepSeaSeamus. can he get banned? check the logs about 12:30 pst till....i forgot when it goes on tho talking about it

[Amun Nefer]

If a problem is big enough that it affects ten players or so, and it happens to be one other player, can't it be dealt with driectly? Since it kind of ruins the game for others...

[BLU3Y3Z]

well a LOT of people are complaining about mr DeepSeaSeamus

[Amun Nefer]

Exactly, in actual Ancient Egypt, this would have been grounds for execution. It was between 4:30 and 6:00 EST yesterday.

[DeepSeaSeamus]

All of it has been shipped mates. There is a common bug where there is a lag delay on the posting of ships, sometimes it doesn't even get posted until you receive the goods. All orders have been fulfilled, I am very proud to say. Its all mended up mates just wait a bit and you will soon see your goods (with bonus amounts, natch). Cheers mates and have a great saturday night!

[Siptah]

actually you lost your nose and your hands for theft ;-) but banning would be enough here

[Amun Nefer]

Nose and hands? really? hmm, maybe that was some other culture I was thinking of... I know that in modern Islamic nations, under Shar'ia you would have one hand taken off for stealing bread, but that's only in very certain places.

[BLU3Y3Z]

this is all i can get but there were lot of ppl and pages tlaking about him ripping ppl off to bad the logs are limited i could not go back far enough to get the rest but heres some

Alyeska (119N) [4:23 pm] » You too?
Torgo (40N) [4:23 pm] » I'm 300 sculpture behind where I was thanks to DeepSeaSeamus scamming me

Torgo (40N) [4:14 pm] » you've cheated too many people from different time zones to hide any more

Torgo (40N) [4:14 pm] » you've cheated too many people from different time zones to hide any more

Torgo (40N) [4:11 pm] » Seamus, where is my 300 jewelry you said your were shipping twice yesterday?

[Amun Nefer]

They're probably all stored somewhere, remember it says they log the scribe walls

[Anodyne]

All of it has been shipped mates. There is a common bug where there is a lag delay on the posting of ships, sometimes it doesn't even get posted until you receive the goods. All orders have been fulfilled, I am very proud to say. Its all mended up mates just wait a bit and you will soon see your goods (with bonus amounts, natch). Cheers mates and have a great saturday night!

Definitely not true. It's been over 15 minutes since you said this in the chat, and there are no incoming goods for your city in the transport log. If you really have all these mysterious debilitating bugs you should be filing bug reports right and left in the correct forum, not continuing to initiate trades with no intent to fulfill them.

I'll be sending scrolls to my trading partners and neighbors warning them of you. Welcome to the free market!

[Torgen]

Notice how this "bug" he claims isn't affecting those shipping TO him? Hmm?

[lynnk]

I am sure that if DeapseaSeamus had honoured any deals - one of those people would say so by now....

This scammer has been giving the same excuses now for nearly 24 hrs....:rolleyes:

[roboczar]

I understand you guys feel bad about being scammed, but you have to wonder how a person with a level 4 city is going to be able to send you hundreds of sculpture and jewelry?

That would have been a big red flag for me, anyway.

[Siptah]

and he just said that in the trade chat

DeepSeaSeamus (133S) [4:39 pm] » you send first. im a bit wary, had a few goods nicked lately, heh

[Anodyne]

From the Trade chat:

DeepSeaSeamus (133S) [4:39 pm] » you send first. im a bit wary, had a few goods nicked lately, heh

:rolleyes:

Oops. Siptah beat me to it. ;)

[BLU3Y3Z]

Torgo (40N) [4:39 pm] » I'll send the henna now. Please send the oil back after it visits you :p
Alyeska (119N) [4:39 pm] » Oh I know hes a scamer Siptah, thats why I told him to send it first.
Torgo (40N) [4:39 pm] » » [4:39 pm] Shipment of 100 [oil] from Cheopteros enroute to Bennu! (4:21 pm arrival)
Torgo (40N) [4:39 pm] » crap, look what I just did, Aly
Anodyne (63N) [4:39 pm] » Oh, please!
DeepSeaSeamus (133S) [4:39 pm] » you send first. im a bit wary, had a few goods nicked lately, heh
Torgo (40N) [4:38 pm] » SEND IT SEAMUS!
Siptah (109N) [4:38 pm] » still not DeepSeaSeamus
Torgo (40N) [4:38 pm] » Good, you have the 300 jewelry you owe me from yesterday then

[Amun Nefer]

I feel dumb for being trusting, lol, and not thinking through the logistics...

[roboczar]

Live and learn guys, just let it go and remember who not to trade with.

[roboczar]

Also, in the future, if you're trading with someone for the first time, it might be a good idea to send 1/4 of the goods first, then wait for their share to appear in the list, then send the next 1/4 and so on.

[Torgen]

He just showed back up in trade chat, claiming to have 300 jewelry, and three people jumped on him saying that he still owed them jewelry.

[Amun]

All of it has been shipped mates. There is a common bug where there is a lag delay on the posting of ships, sometimes it doesn't even get posted until you receive the goods. All orders have been fulfilled, I am very proud to say. Its all mended up mates just wait a bit and you will soon see your goods (with bonus amounts, natch). Cheers mates and have a great saturday night!
Everyone else I've ever traded with I've been able to see the incoming shipment in my transports section. I still don't see anything coming from you...

[thespian]

I understand you guys feel bad about being scammed, but you have to wonder how a person with a level 4 city is going to be able to send you hundreds of sculpture and jewelry?

That would have been a big red flag for me, anyway.

Most of the larger trades, for 200-300, happened yesterday afternoon. Since most of the trading, after the first offer and response, happens in scrolls, it would be easy to come to chat, offer 300 units of jewelry, and then, in scrolls where no one can see, accept trades from a half dozen people, without anyone the wiser. It's not unreasonable to expect that a level 4 city has that much at hand; I worked late on Thursday and went out to dinner (was gone for about 12 hours) and when I got home I had 500 kohl and 300 cosmetics sitting there to trade with.

It wasn't until he tried the scam again around 7pmEST yesterday that people started to say, in chat, 'Hey; you haven't sent *my* jewelry yet.' and suddenly a half dozen people were comparing notes on channel and realized how extensively he had 'overpromised' his resources. He protested about a nonexistent bug, and claimed the trades were being filled right then. And an our and a half later, there was still no sign of them.

If I were a dev on the game, I'd be seriously pissed about this; not because he was an ass about in-game trust; it's trust for a reason, and these things will happen with the system as it stands, but because he keeps trying to blame them for his scam, with this 'common bug' that no one but him seems to be affected by.

Thes.

(Thespinetru)

[thespian]

to all my allies and to everyone in my nome, 112S (Rasesh). I have reason to believe DeepSeaSeamus has started contacting people who don't read the chat or the forum to arrange trades now, since no one who reads either will trade with him, and everytime he opens his yap in trade he gets pounced on, since he angered so many.

It's boilerplate, and of course, write your own if you want; I'm mostly posting to suggest it and to track who has been warned. Rather than filling this thread with 'I did it too!', send me a private message, and I will edit this reply to note which nomes have been warned.

Greetings;

As a fellow resident of Rasesh, I'm dropping you a little note to let you know that the game has a scammer by the name of DeepSeaSeamus. He has, at this time, offered over 1500 units of jewelry that he does not have. He has tapped out the trade channel, and may now start to contact individuals by private scroll.

More info on this scammer can be found in this forum thread:
http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20085&page=3

If you have allies, you may wish to warn them - do not ship anything to DeepSeaSeamus unless you see he has shipped first under the 'Transports' button.

Peace and Prosperity,
Thes.

Please note: when sending to your entire nome, pay attention to the owners of the cities; often people have more than one city per nome, and it's spamming if you blindly send mail to the same person 2 or three times! Please be courteous. Also, iIf you're at this thread because of receiving the warning, your nome has been covered, and while you might want to warn allies, you don't have to do anything! :-)

Until there's some other way (I like a thumbs up/thumbs down one click rating system, even if it's Roman in origin, not Egyptian :-) ) to see if people are good trade partners or bad, word of mouth seems like the best plan.

Thes.

(Thespinetru)

[lynnk]

At the bottom of the scribe wall it says:

"Note: This is logged. Players found abusing the system will be banned from the game. Keep it civil and appropriate for all ages."

In my opinion anybody who uses the scribe wall to scam other players is definitely abusing the system...

[King Faticus]

now see this is interesting

The community has already taken care of the problem from what I can see

People warn others when a known con artist posts in trade..
and messages were sent to many people (not me) by the looks of it

so I don't think there isn't much need for TM to do anything about it at this time
currently the community itself seems to be in charge and that is a good thing for a social game

while yes it sucks that you got ripped off.. think of trading as a risky investment
yes you loose some money here and there... but if you pool your profits and losses together.. it is still very beneficial.

just start trading in smaller quantities from now on with unproven traders and it won't happen as often..
and if it does your losses won't be so large.


besides making private trade completely safe will put the final nail in the open market's coffin.

[thespian]

now see this is interesting

The community has already taken care of the problem from what I can see

People warn others when a known con artist posts in trade..
and messages were sent to many people (not me) by the looks of it

so I don't think there isn't much need for TM to do anything about it at this time

Except it took me about 15 minutes to send the mail to my nomies and homies. And if say, 1 person in each nome does this, that's what...150+ nomes north and south...50 HOURS of game time that needs to be spent to warn everyone when a twit like this gets his scam on. No, it's not a lot of effort individually, BUT it's irritating and it's just going to get worse.

I don't want an escrow or anything; time consuming, means lots of dev time spent on it, means I can't surprise friends with 100 kohl when I'm having a good trade day. But I want to see the social aspects of this expanded; when a trade goes well or poorly, I'd like to be able to rate the other Pharoah, and then it's just displayed on their profile say as:


Pharoah $name is surely blessed by the gods; no one can find fault with them! (100% good rating)
Word in the market that Pharoah $name is honorable (80-99% good rating)
A seller leans over confidentially, "Some advice; Pharoah $name cuts things a little fine." (50-79% good rating)
Your scribe looks at notes from afar, worried. "Pharoah, you should be wary of trades with $name." (49% good or less)
A vendor looks thoughtful. "Pharoah $name? I've heard a little, but not enough to say..." (fewer than 5 results, regardless of good/bad reviews)


Thus, you can take 1s after each trade to review, the *community* gets a voice, and it adds a little more to the game atmosphere. You can still trade with someone who has been a nit, but you take your own chances. People can also take their chances - 'do I want to maybe profit now at the expense of my trade reputation?' Some people will, of course. And some people who develop bad reps can, with some work, build a rep back up, without people knowing finicky details like *exactly* how many yea/nay ratings the person got; it's just a range to get a feel for how this Pharoah has dealt with others.

Thes.

[Snowwolf]

Sounds like eBayish ratings.

Do you know how many people post negative just because they feel the least slighted, Like an email was slow because the seller was working a double shift and couldn't send the winner a a response to an email with a question about shipping within moments of the bidding ending, or like their package was mailed a day after they payed instead of the same day? Or some do it just because of no discernible reason to ruin a person's rating. You then have the wait and see crowd that refuse to rate the other person first because they plan to rate negative and want to make sure they get their positive comment first before slamming the other person.

Ebay spends lots of man hours monitoring these disputes and I doubt TM will want to do that when X player gets his first negative ding and goes ballistic and demands it be removed.

[Sandra Linkletter]

Without knowing the exact details, I would think that any decent rating system would require that TM develop a tracking system to keep track of who has traded with whom and allow one-and-only-one rating per trade. Otherwise, we would have yet another type of scammer arrive. This type would run around giving false ratings. This would make the rating system at best worthless, and at worst the source of a great deal of bad feelings and community disarray.

I would rather have TM developing the game itself, at least at this time.

[JuliaSet]

The ultimate pay back will come when DeepSeaSeamus tries to make a monument. I think many will try to destroy it, should he make one. Fair trading eventually has a way to even the score for those who do not honor their deals.

[Amun Nefer]

That will be some nice pay back, but it won't get any of us the goods we gave him.

[lynnk]

Sounds like eBayish ratings.

Do you know how many people post negative just because they feel the least slighted, Like an email was slow because the seller was working a double shift and couldn't send the winner a a response to an email with a question about shipping within moments of the bidding ending, or like their package was mailed a day after they payed instead of the same day? Or some do it just because of no discernible reason to ruin a person's rating. You then have the wait and see crowd that refuse to rate the other person first because they plan to rate negative and want to make sure they get their positive comment first before slamming the other person.

Ebay spends lots of man hours monitoring these disputes and I doubt TM will want to do that when X player gets his first negative ding and goes ballistic and demands it be removed.

Agreed :)

A system which allows players to give either positve or negative points/feedback will be abused unless the points can only be awarded for things that have actually been done or not done in the game - otherwise people will just gve their allies lots of positive points and give everybody else negative points...

Also if there is not a way of either banning people who scam or a way of making a contract binding so that there are penalties if one person breaks it without the agreement of the other - then this game won't be any different from any on-line 'destroy and kill everybody else' game - the game will constantly attract people whose aim in joining is to cheat and hurt other players...

[tomnobles]

Be nice to see this thread die a quick & happy death.

[DeepSeaSeamus]

cheers

[Agamemnus]

Be nice to see this thread die a quick & happy death.

No, we need this thread.

[Torgen]

He's back in trade chat, gloating over ripping people off now (just in case anyone was giving him the benefit of a doubt)

DeepSeaSeamus (133S) [4:05 pm] » at the bottom of the ocean :)
Torgo (40N) [4:05 pm] » or, you can send my 300 sculpture back, Seamus
Danly (28S) [4:05 pm] » seamus=scammer
Amun (131S) [4:05 pm] » Still waiting for my jewelry too MATE
Torgo (40N) [4:04 pm] » Hey Seamus, where are the 300 jewelry you promised 3 days ago?

[Caesar Clifford]

DeepSeaSeamus
Vagrant

Seems a pretty good description to me

[slcha]

Hey - nothing wrong with Vagrants. If it weren't for the jewellers, I'd be a millionaire ;)

[DeepSeaSeamus]

my entire fleet of ships sank :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Andrelvis]

Ah, the ever-so-present Egyptian whirlpools =/

[thespian]

A system which allows players to give either positve or negative points/feedback will be abused unless the points can only be awarded for things that have actually been done or not done in the game - otherwise people will just gve their allies lots of positive points and give everybody else negative points...

do you think? I mean, most of the people I've traded with here on the game have been honest and straightforward, to the point of occasionally asking me if I'm sure I want to make a trade that gave them a slight upper hand (I needed the reeds, had kohl to the rafters of my warehouse, and just wanted to go to sleep, so I offered the kohl at 1:4 to anyone who could get me reeds in less than 4 hours, so it would show while I slept and before I ran out ;) ). If 98% of the players are normal, non-misanthropic people, then an honour system, especially one that gives a vague range, instead of an exact number, should work.

And sometimes, you'll want to give someone a rating without a trade; if they send you some free cedar, say, or help you in game. Hell, after all the effort I've put into outlining this, if it were implemented as desced, I would fully expect that upon implementation, I'd get a volley of ratings (good AND bad), based on this forum contribution. And I'd be ok with that.

Thes.

[roboczar]

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showpost.php?p=17298002&postcount=7

I lol'd.

[Otus]

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showpost.php?p=17298002&postcount=7

I lol'd.

Big LOL. DeepSeaSeamus has truble with girls and he vents his frustration by being an a** over the internet :P If he were able to 'get some' he'd be just an average guy :D

[BLU3Y3Z]

Big LOL. DeepSeaSeamus has truble with girls and he vents his frustration by being an a** over the internet :P If he were able to 'get some' he'd be just an average guy :D

Now it all makes since !

[Elizabethus]

I'm with you Slcha. There it nothing wrong with vagrants. We just need time! It will all sort out in the long run. Honesty is always the best policy :)

[Amun Nefer]

my entire fleet of ships sank :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Now that I know is a lie, the only way your ships can be destroyed is when they are used to build your second city. There are no disasters, no Nile Pirates, no running aground, no captain getting drunk, nothing coded to suddenly destroy your fleet without warning. Only by building a second city do you EVER lose ships, and I highly doubt you have a second city; and if you do it would further show you haven't given ANYONE their goods yet. Why don't you just play the game fairly like everyone else does and stop profitting off of other people's trust? You should be ashamed of yourself for taking advantage of players like that.

Maybe, just maybe if you try acting like a decent person and give EVERYONE the goods you owe them, you might be forgiven one day.

[King Faticus]

I just saw him posting in the trade channel, so I looked at his capital (It's Rubbish Mate) which is his only city and it is lvl 4

his rank is only 1484
this I find alarming

Reed just said that Luxury goods are counted in the ranking
and he should have a lot of goods stashed in that city?

also why isn't he upgrading his city?.. it has been lvl 4 for days.

I bet you that he is shipping all the stolen goods to another city... it might also be his main account?

Reed can you please check this out to be sure?
I know there is nothing in the rules about swindling people
but you DID say not to have multiple accounts and I think he might just have.


or you know what? what if he is a farming bot o_0
ok that's a bit of a stretch lol

[Amun Nefer]

Yeah, I mean he does post on the forums tryign to cover his hide. His IP address should be blocked though. (that'll sink his ship) I don't want to him scam anyone else. It wrecks the game for everyone, because we become paranoid about trading.

[sakasiru]

Aw, come on, he´s one guy scamming out of over 2000 players. Don´t you think we can deal with him? Every time he shows up on the trade channel, several people jump on him warning the others tempted to trade with him. In a few days, everyone will know him, and he will have a hell of a time to find someone even for honest deals.

I like him as a bad example that scamming won´t bring you far. So let´s keep him. :p:p

As an aside: I´d like to see bots that make snarky comments ;)

[King Faticus]

Sakasiru, I don't care if he is scamming people or not
as I said.. the community is taking care of itself

now if he is running multiple accounts...
shipping stolen goods to his main account while getting no reputation hit to his main..

then I think he is breaking a rule
not that I can be too sure

which is why I want reed to look at him.

[Rama-Seph]

I'm fine with peeking to be sure he's not laundering his ill-gotten gains to a second account...but the longer he stays, setting off alarm bells, the better for all of us. He's our reminder to be careful with trades, and that a little paranoia is actually a good thing. I've had no bad experiences personally, and several very good ones (where I or others have waited over 24 hours for payment, or returned goods mistakenly shipped, etc.) but I like having a poster child for bad trading just to present a counterexample.

[Reed]

Reed just said that Luxury goods are counted in the ranking
No, no. To clarify; I said the level of your lux material (e.g., Oil Farm) is important in the ranking. He could have 10,000 jewelry and it wouldn't make any difference.

[Jimhotep]

I'm fine with peeking to be sure he's not laundering his ill-gotten gains to a second account...but the longer he stays, setting off alarm bells, the better for all of us. He's our reminder to be careful with trades, and that a little paranoia is actually a good thing. I've had no bad experiences personally, and several very good ones (where I or others have waited over 24 hours for payment, or returned goods mistakenly shipped, etc.) but I like having a poster child for bad trading just to present a counterexample.
Ok, let me see if I've got this right: you're all for letting Ted Bundy run around killing coeds 'cause it keeps 'em on their toes.

(Relax. Just f'ing with you. But that is the principle you're espousing :) )

[Rama-Seph]

Using your analogy, I'm willing to put posters of Ted's picture all over campus, to remind the coeds to lock their doors. Many won't like the reminder, but it will work. If Ted's rendered harmless by the poster campaign (as DSS seems to be compromised by constant feedback in the chat channel) we've at least protected ourselves sufficiently.

The analogy really fails in that Seamus hasn't broken any rules, that we know of, and the game has no "criminal justice system" to apply to him. All we CAN do is protect ourselves. I'm advocating AGAINST an elaborate system to guard against his kind of predation, because a) such a system is too easily misused and could be more trouble than none at all, and b) I'd rather see the effort go into something the game needs more.

[Jimhotep]

Oh, I agree with you. I think the idea of some kind of criminal justice system in a game like this is, frankly, a bit loony. You either construct the game in such a way that cheating people is made impossible, or you allow it. It seems that NO is going to allow it. So that's that.

[Pecunia]

Seems we have a new scammer, or (more likely) DeepSeaSeamus has made several accounts: CaptainGarryRules just made some deals in the trade wall, has goods shipped to him, but didn't send anything himself.

[Amun Nefer]

Well, now he's finally violated a clearly defined rule...

[roboczar]

Yes, to be fair scamming is a valid way to play the game. It won't make you any friends, but that's your problem if you do it.

It's just too bad he didn't have the smarts to keep from breaking an actual rule.

[Amun Nefer]

Yay! He's gone! :D But so are my sandals :(