3rd city, when did you get it?

[Eplekongen]

Are there many 3rd cities out there? When did you get your third city? What level were your previous cities, what resources?

[Arkwright2]

I believe there is only 1 player with a 3rd city so far,,,,, <:D>
And it was done with ALOT of help from friends.:D

RenegadeRedHead:eek:

[King Faticus]

I have enough ships, bread, and almost enough perfume
I'm also making cosmetics and trading for sandals

I will get there withOUT the help of friends :p

[Broney]

I should be able to get mine sometime late tomorrow, if I've done my math right. Saturday if I haven't.

[Caesar Clifford]

Congratulations Arkwright, first 3rd city. But still only ranked 3. i think that will go up very soon.

[PhilL]

Congrats renagade!!!!!!!!!!

So what is the requirements for a 4th city?

[Reed]

Hmm, time to give those requirements another pass...

[King Faticus]

too quickly?

[aeval99]

It's not the requirements Reed, it's the lack of incentive to build up. Once you get to the point of needing 500+ jewelry and 500+ of another lux good to upgrade palace there is no real reason to do it. An extra resource is always going to seem like a better deal, no matter how costly you make it.

It's not the 3rd city requirements that are too low, it's the palace upgrades that are too high and there is no upside to it after a certain point.

[JuliaSet]

All of that lux we burnt for upgrades could have been used for third city!

[Broney]

My take on it was that my upgrades were taking long enough that I wanted a third city to be able to do interesting things in, actually. Most of my upgrades take 8+ hours now.

I've even taken to... gasp... stepping away from the game for a while every once in a while. Felt very odd.

[Keeyai]

I've even taken to... gasp... stepping away from the game for a while every once in a while. Felt very odd.


Nooooo!

[King Faticus]

yes those 6-8 hour time spans are off putting... but they are unavoidable because it is a multilayer browser game


still.. sometimes I wish i could allocate some of my laborers into a construction office or something.. to decrease the time...
I have been sick for a week now and have been glued to my computer screen....
it is boring....

ohh ohh!! look!!! it dropped by another minute! only 6 hours left!
*eyes glaze over*

[JuliaSet]

Actually we got into the "jewerly lust" for the huge numbers of jewerly to burn for upgrades... along with that "wasted" resource was quite a bit of lux goods that would be better saved for third city.

[Caesar Clifford]

yes those 6-8 hour time spans are off putting

Level 8 market 14hr 33m. Don't worry about how long your palaces take - the markets are worse.

[Arkwright2]

Hmm, time to give those requirements another pass...

They're right Reed. I won't lie, It took 4 players(2 cities each= 8 resources) almost a week to launch these ships (all freakin 22 of 'em). There is advantages of "team play" here.

Phil,,, for a 4th city, you'll need:

* 16875< Bread
* 11812< Brick
* 33 < ships
* 2700whips,,, i mean sandals
* 2700< Sculpture
* 2193 < cosmetics
* 2193 < Perfume
* 12h 00m

more surprises to come!!!

[Broney]

Hmm. Fourth city seems vaguely cheap in comparison, only 150% of the third city price. I could see that deserving another pass at looking into prices.

[Reed]

Yeah, the numbers for 3rd and 4th cities haven't had a pass in a long time - wasn't expecting anyone to get a 3rd city yet, heh. So there will probably be some changes (especially with the 4th).

[Agamemnus]

I won't lie, It took 4 players(2 cities each= 8 resources) almost a week to launch these ships (all freakin 22 of 'em). There is advantages of "team play" here.


I call it "team cheating". :mad:..

:(

[roboczar]

How is it cheating? You're completely free to do the same by building up relationships with other people. It would be cheating if they were able to do something that you couldn't.

[Agamemnus]

How is it cheating? You're completely free to do the same by building up relationships with other people. It would be cheating if they were able to do something that you couldn't.

Because... it's easier for those guys in the center to do. :(

[Arkwright2]

I call it "team cheating". :mad:..

:(

ummm,,, a little harsh,, don't you think?? I mean,, co-operation between players is now cheating?? wow,,,, i missed that memo. :(

[Arkwright2]

Because... it's easier for those guys in the center to do. :(

we are in the center because we have been playing longer and spent more time building, upgrading, etc.

At this stage in the game,, the older players are in the middle, and the most upgraded.

[Rama-Seph]

Okay, all of you on the fringes, I say we hit the central cities with a pincer maneuver, charge them on both sides at once and start a 2-front war...

Oh right, no military. Well, it seemed like a good idea. Guess we'll just have to put that part off until later.

[PhilL]

They're right Reed. I won't lie, It took 4 players(2 cities each= 8 resources) almost a week to launch these ships (all freakin 22 of 'em). There is advantages of "team play" here.



So they others fed your city to get the resources needed very clever. ;)

[King Faticus]

I don't think most relationships formed inside the game are going to be strong enough to 'feed' you with the resources you need to build your third city


I will assume the people he plays with were friends before playing NO?
well in that case it is unfair because ALL my 'real' friends are 50 hours away and then some

I could not do the same :/ but then again most other people couldn't either

but don't worry, I'm not keen on getting a third city atm anyways :p I only want to reach my personal goal of 100,000 bread o_0

[Rama-Seph]

And since very few sets of friends would be found close together like that, it makes this city founding an anomaly. I suspect the 3rd city requirements are still daunting enough for balance, though the 4th seem a bit light and I won't be surprised to see them increased soon.

[Agamemnus]

we are in the center because we have been playing longer and spent more time building, upgrading, etc.

At this stage in the game,, the older players are in the middle, and the most upgraded.

False. You haven't played longer or spent more time building/upgrading, nor are you older. You just started first. :p

[aramann]

I don't think most relationships formed inside the game are going to be strong enough to 'feed' you with the resources you need to build your third city


I will assume the people he plays with were friends before playing NO?
well in that case it is unfair because ALL my 'real' friends are 50 hours away and then some


Unless you count marriage as a friendship, actually, before NO - they weren't. At least not in this case.

It's really a democratic system. But then again, everyone can believe and say what they want. This was done without multiple accounts and definitely without any cheating. Simple trade agreements and "Ally's".
Just because one is in a different part of the Nile does not mean they cannot make a similar arrangement to help out other people within their group of nomes.

[King Faticus]

This was done without multiple accounts and definitely without any cheating.
don't put words in my mouth, I only said 'unfair' and never called it cheating.

But then again, everyone can believe and say what they want.
your right, and I will continue to "believe" that it is 'unfair'
did you know that some browser games ban accounts who do to many "lopsided" trades?

not that I care either way really.... I have my own motivation for playing and reaching #1 is not it ;)

[aramann]

You are right KF - I never meant for the "cheating" remark to be aimed specifically at you.

The one thing about this group of people is that you can never say that the "trades" are lopsided. They might be for a day or so but then it equals out. And it definitely works it's way around to all the allies. We might all focus for one day on getting a person their palace upgrade, and the next day a city, and the next day another palace upgrade.
I'd be a screaming nightmare otherwise.

[Eplekongen]

I only want to reach my personal goal of 100,000 bread o_0

Archievement unlocked!

[Deadbuffalo]

3rd city numbers seem fine to me. I bet we'll see a third city sometime late next week

Called it! Congratulations to the coordinated pharaohs.

[Arkwright2]

Called it! Congratulations to the coordinated pharaohs.

It was difficult for me not to reply to your original post..

[tomnobles]

...nor are you older...

Maybe a look at my profile will change your mind.

:D

[Eplekongen]

Maybe a look at my profile will change your mind.

:D

That is seriously awsome

[roboczar]

I think that instead of worrying about people meta-gaming behind the scenes, you should worry about being more creative and sociable with other players so you can do some meta-gaming of your own, and maybe get some of the same advantages.

And really, if you aren't in it to compete with other players, then the fairness of it all should be of no interest. :cool:

[Sandra Linkletter]

I certainly don't begrudge anyone their teamwork. It's how I prefer to play, and how I have played in other games. Some players get quite angry when people co-operate with each other instead of trying to do each other in. I've never thought that was cheating, even though they seemed to think so.

But it is true that those of us who joined days later than the first are at a disadvantage, because of the way players are added around the center. Three friends of mine joined in the past two days. Two are on my end of the Nile and the third is on the far end. How are we supposed to act as a team with 256 nomes between us? The rest of my friends that I invited are waiting to see how the military turns out. They don't want to play the game if they are forced to fight. We know Reed said not, but we've all come from another game where promises were not kept so they are cautious. Even if they all joined now, though, we'd be scattered over both ends of the Nile.

I think that is what was meant by the comment about those in the center having an unfair advantage, because all of your friends ended up near you. No one joining later can ever count on that happening, and the distance is only getting worse with each passing day.

[Sandra Linkletter]

Maybe a look at my profile will change your mind.

:D

Hey, someone older than me! :D

[roboczar]

In a case of extreme distance like that, I'd just consider it a planning challenge rather than an actual obstacle. The game is just numbers after all, and it's very easy to factor in travel times when projecting output and timing upgrades.

Plan carefully, get your friend at the far end to commit to a long term plan and stick to it. Distances only become a problem when you run things ad hoc and don't plan for time.

Make efficient use of ships, send large numbers of everything to reduce the number of trips... there are all kinds of logistical tricks you can you to make the distance less pressing.

[Sandra Linkletter]

Well yeah, planning is good. But it's not much of an interactive game when you send a shipment and the other person gets it next week. :(

[Reed]

Re; the cheating comments. Well, they didn't break any rules. I think it's kind of cool actually. They teamed up, and came up with a strategy to work toward a specific goal.

It reminds me of a guild in EQ that funneled their resources to one player in order to help them reach level 50 first.

[roboczar]

Not at the start no, they have to be self sufficient until the first shipment, but it sounds like it's only going to take 3 days to get there. If you send a few more flotillas in succession, your friend will have a good supply, and you can keep coordinated through the sci-fi relativistic speeds of the scroll system.

I'd love to have a regular partner on the other end of the map. The prices there are probably a lot less depressed and I'd make more money. :)

[roboczar]

Re; the cheating comments. Well, they didn't break any rules. I think it's kind of cool actually. They teamed up, and came up with a strategy to work toward a specific goal.

I think you should try to work in more opportunities for it, Reed. You've heard of a Tale in the Desert, right?

[Reed]

I'd love to have a regular partner on the other end of the map. The prices there are probably a lot less depressed and I'd make more money. :)
That's one of the reasons behind why the world is set up the way it is. So there are variations in the economy that players can take advantage of, if they want to play a merchant role. Perhaps kohl is plentiful and cheap at your capital city, but scarce and valuable at your expansion city 20 nomes away. Buy low, ship to where it sells high.

I think you should try to work in more opportunities for it, Reed. You've heard of a Tale in the Desert, right?
Have heard of it, but not familiar with it. So you'll have to explain what you mean. ;)

[roboczar]

Have heard of it, but not familiar with it. So you'll have to explain what you mean. ;)

Players all over the game world work to complete elaborate projects with far reaching benefits, but require extensive coordination and teamwork. It also encourages more friendly competition than just a leader board, for instance, who is the 'first' to complete a major project that benefits everyone.

So even though everyone else doesn't get the clout, they get the benefit. Helps build community I think.

Hm. Probably should have saved this for the suggestions forum. :cool:

[Agamemnus]

Well, I'm just miffed that the guys in the center not only were the first ones to start playing (the fact that no one else knew about the game and it came out very suddenly gave them a huge advantage...), but also used the game mechanics to stretch their starting advantage of knowing each other even further. No one else really has had, has, or will have in the near future, quite the opportunity they have.

[goonsquad]

Yes, Agamemnus, there is an advantage in being among the starters. Out in the boonies where we don't know each other some players reply to scrolls but many don't. They prefer to get what they can in the markets.

[Caesar Clifford]

256 nomes apart is 77 hours shipping time. Thats longer than anywhere in real life on the planet. 77 hours is over 3 days. Long time to tie up a ship. One of my friends signed up and ended up south instead of north and is 64 hours away from me.

Well, I'm just miffed that the guys in the center not only were the first ones to start playing (the fact that no one else knew about the game and it came out very suddenly gave them a huge advantage...), but also used the game mechanics do stretch their starting advantage of knowing each other. No one else really has had, has, or will have in the near future, quite the opportunity they have.

Yes I can see where you could have this attitude but seriously however you feel about it, isn't going to change the situation. Work with what you have got not what you haven't got. No one I know will ever have the advantage that Bill Gates children have but that doesn't mean they should give up and go live in a gutter.

The game forces you to either make new friends or just use the market where you live. Not really a bad thing. The people in the centre probably haven't had to make many new friends as some of them knew each other from the Alpha test. Naturally they knew about when the Beta was starting and could, if they wished sign up right away. Why would anyone begrudge them that start. Without their input we would not have such an awesome game now.

This game is a long term game. People in the top 50 will move on to other things and newer players will move up the rankings. No different to life. No one expects to be the President or CEO of a company when they are 21. You have to do the hard yards and take time to climb any ladder. I am quite happy with it as is. Its similiar to life. It does sadden me that a few people are already callign "tall poppy". Move on, play your own game, if you want it bad enough you to will be in that position.

If someone within 5-7 nomes of me scrolled me and asked to form a trade partnership so we could all help each other out with 4-6 of us I would seriously consider joining and doing my best to help everyone. It would add a new dimension to the game. Problem is human nature, you have to trust that the first person you help won't just dump you all as soon as they get to where they want. That would be foolish in agame like this though as I imagine the other dumped partners would quickly scroll around and tell everyone not to trade with that person because of what they had done.

I also heard about Nile at the start but to my ever lasting shame did not expect it to be this good a game and waited to sign up. By then I was 50 nomes North.

[Caesar Clifford]

Yes, Agamemnus, there is an advantage in being among the starters. Out in the boonies where we don't know each other some players reply to scrolls but many don't. They prefer to get what they can in the markets.


When I started where I am it was the boonies. Its still hard work to get goods at times and maybe less fun than being right in the middle. There's not a lot on the market ever and many cities don't have green buttons by them. And not a lot of players trade privately much as far as I can see.

[roboczar]

And not a lot of players trade privately much as far as I can see.

Absolutely not true. I know of eight or more active players just in my immediate 10 nome area that do the vast majority of their trading privately, including myself.

[Torgen]

256 nomes apart is 77 hours shipping time. Thats longer than anywhere in real life on the planet. 77 hours is over 3 days. Long time to tie up a ship. One of my friends signed up and ended up south instead of north and is 64 hours away from me.

Until just 50 years ago, most people still took two weeks to cross the Atlantic at best. Even today, bulk freight takes over 90 days to cross the Pacific. Imagine how long it takes even today to go down the whole Nile in a sailboat that you have to pole or row when the wind isn't in your favor.

EDIT: I have a regular trading partner that is over 22 hours away. We're both making money trading henna and kohl. I just take into account having two to four ships tied up at any one time. That still leaves me with 7 to 9 ships, and my one lonely dude making ships single-handedly means that it becomes less and less of a problem. (Don't worry, he likes the smell of cedar, and is using the shavings to raise hamsters on the side.)

Besides, I"m going to need a freaking flotilla to found the 3rd city.

[Mnemon]

It takes 6 days for a ship from my second city to reach my first. I actually like that it's not an instant (or close to) thing and have been wondering if I might place my third city all the way South (which would equal 12 days from second to third).

It requires more ships, more than anything else, but once the initial 6 day period is up there'll be a constant daily transfer of goods from those "fringe" cities to my main one, which operates as a trade hub. Coordinated efforts over a distance are perfectly possible.

Of course I have a leisure approach to the game, and only logon now and then.

-Mnemon

[Sandra Linkletter]

Four more of my friends got talked into signing up. The two ends are 271 apart, but three have cedar, so I guess we will have fleets if we have nothing else. *laughs*

[CannibalBob]

For your 3rd city: If you have 12 ships in city A and 10 ships in city B, does that fulfill the 22 ship requirements? Same for other resources like bricks (damn it's hard to store over 7000 bricks).

[Czech Centurian]

I think you need them all in one city.

Which of course brings the suggestion to be able to send your ships to any of your exchanges or to be able to sell ships.

[Torgen]

Yup, all gotta be in the capital, if I recall correctly. That's why only my capital has a market and large warehouse.

[Czech Centurian]

I have a level 6 warehouse in my Capital and a level 2 in my second city, incase I go away for too long. I reckon it's better to spend the resources than to have wasted resources afterwards.

[PhilL]

Re; the cheating comments. Well, they didn't break any rules. I think it's kind of cool actually. They teamed up, and came up with a strategy to work toward a specific goal.

It reminds me of a guild in EQ that funneled their resources to one player in order to help them reach level 50 first.

In another BG's this is called pushing and is considered cheating.

Its impossible to break rules that dont exist. In beta a game is meant to be tested and explored. I hope this event uncovered an exploit that can give an unfair advantage to a player. Another issue I see that needs to be address is multi accounting.
In effect funneling goods to a player is multi accounting.

[Agamemnus]

In another BG's this is called pushing and is considered cheating.

Its impossible to break rules that dont exist. In beta a game is meant to be tested and explored. I hope this event uncovered an exploit that can give an unfair advantage to a player.

I think it could be considered a legitimate strategy, though, assuming they all take turns doing it. What I don't like is that no one else has this advantage of knowing each other so well to organize it.
If they launch a new world, give advance warning to ALL players (about starting it), and randomize the starting positions bit more for the first few days it wouldn't be a problem, in my opinion.

[Sandra Linkletter]

In another BG's this is called pushing and is considered cheating.

Its impossible to break rules that dont exist. In beta a game is meant to be tested and explored. I hope this event uncovered an exploit that can give an unfair advantage to a player. Another issue I see that needs to be address is multi accounting.
In effect funneling goods to a player is multi accounting.

They have already forbidden multiple accounts. However, friends co-operating is in no way the same as multiple accounts. It requires trust between actual RL people. In some games this even involves virtual items that cost RL money, which involves a ~lot~ of trust.

To say that this is forbidden would be to insist that all games be completely competative and never allow co-operation. Decades ago, this was the case. My husband and I played many a game where we stopped after we had beaten the AI enemies, and could not "win" without fighting each other. This, we refused to do.

It is an entirely different concept, to play ~with~, rather than to play ~against~, one's friends. It is how many of us would rather play, however. :)

[Czech Centurian]

I know in travian it's dangerous to send more than an hours gathered resources to someone. I hope I've got that correct.

[Hieronymus]

In another BG's this is called pushing and is considered cheating.
Only to those who are obsessed with the World Rank :rolleyes:

[roboczar]

Yeah, I mean if you are worried about how competitive you are, I can see how this would be a concern. But as was stated before, the people who work closely together don't have an advantage that you couldn't match through effort and sociability.

If you aren't worried about ranking, just quit worrying. :)

[Broney]

Yeah, my math was wrong. Tomorrow's more likely than today.

And yes, this is with people helping me, with the expectation that I'll help them afterwards.

This took 2 and a half weeks from my start date, and it kind of "feels" like a reasonable amount of time given the effort put into it (and the help required). Fourth city should be a lot more expensive, though.

I think it'd be nice if new players could choose to start near (where by near I mean "on the same side of the center") their friends or placed randomly. I have a friend who's 41 hours away and while we trade occasionally, it's fairly limiting to our ability to interact.

[Torgen]

That would be neat.

"Would you rather start on the north or south side of the Nile? N/S"

[Sandra Linkletter]

It would also be nice to give people the ability to abandon their city voluntarily, in case they really wanted to take their chances on a new location without waiting for their city to go dead and be deleted. :)

[PhilL]

Only to those who are obsessed with the World Rank :rolleyes:


it is in the written rules for the game.

I do not have a problem with what was done because there are no rules yet for NO. I just feel this needs to be thought about by TM and they need to figure out what is best for the success of the game.

every game needs rules to keep the playing field even.
NO needs some too.

[Rama-Seph]

That's a tough rule (or type of rule) for TM to enforce...pooling resources is a lot like direct trading, there's no limit of the exchange rates (so imbalanced trades are fair) and there's nothing to guarantee ships must be sent at the same time...many of us check the city browser only occasionally, and half a trade could easily be finished before the other half is ever sent. A group of cities that pools its efforts for a single project...that's just another kind of trade, as explained earlier the implicit agreement is that the next project benefits a different pharaoh, so it's just going to take a bit longer to pay back.

I hope there's a good way to distinguish multiple accounts for a single user, but multiple people forming a strong alliance to pursue shared goals (or individual goals in sequence) seems like a natural evolution of the social element of the game.

[King Faticus]

if only alliances were more than just a friends list

in some BGs I play
alliances are close and have their own chat
they can also work together to achieve a common goal like building a monument
and even fight together ect

NO doesn't really have alliances it has friends lists
and social cliques that were often established before NO

while it is a step in the right direction it isn't the same


and yes even in those games with true alliances "pushing" is still considered cheating
even in ones without military

[Sandra Linkletter]

Do we know for certainty that TM does not intend more for NO alliances? :)

[Tinkerbell]

Questions

Why is anyone surprized?

I knew this was gonna happen. It already had a loong time ago. It cannot be stopped & I appreciate the honesty. All you can do is drive it underground & force people to lie.

Why are we focusing on this one, while ignoring the earlier ones?

On with the game... :)

[tomnobles]

Why not ignore them all and continue testing. Isn't this beta?

[JuliaSet]

I would like a message board for the temple group. It would be nice to coodrinate who can contribute and in what way. Some might have access to raw goods due to a special trade deal, another might have a factory to make the donation.

There is also time when we cant do our usual donation and need others to pick up the slack. I would like to be able to have a "bank" for the next round of blessings too.

[Caesar Clifford]

I would like a message board for the temple group.

This would be nice. I keep thinking I need to do a mass scroll to all 4 other pharaoh's in my nome but can't work out the wording.

Please build a temple fast and give at least 1 sandal so we all know you will also get the blessing.

I suppose that would do actually.