Guilds & Industry

[Wen Kha-Ne]

Will we be seeing craftsmanship guilds for monuments like in Pharaoh? Or will they just be the usual brickmakers at home etc..

Also, what about storage yards? I presume there would be some sort of granary and a brewery, but I haven't seen anything about storage yards so far. I miss them already.

[EmperorJay]

From what has been said, I think we won't see storage yards. Instead, you as a Pharaoh can designate areas where raw materials will be dropped. The people who need to those raw materials will then visit those areas to pick the materials up (possibly at a cost, in grain).

Finished products will, I think, never leave the place where they were made until they are actually used.

I don't know anything about the guilds. :)

[Wen Kha-Ne]

Interesting. It might be fun charging everyone just so they can work. http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de//evilgrinblack.gif

A question if anyone knows about the grain though (just to add to my personal collection)...

Would the actual currency (of grain) still be called Deben? I am 90% sure the Deben was a weight, so would that be what our grain was measured in? It just doesn't sound right to say "3000 grain" to me.

[Keith]

I wouldn't think that grain would be referred to as "deben" that was strictly coinage. "Measure" would be a better term for dealing with a item like grain.

Grain was measured against a equal weight of silver, which was called a "kit"(sp?), approximately 370 grammes, according to some information I have read.
http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/horus2.gif
Keith Heitmann (http://mailto:dheitm8612@aol.com/) a.k.a Nuthin-in-khamun
Listen to the music of the CityBuilders while online:
Caesar III Music Player (http://www.geocities.com/kheitmann1/C3Player.htm)•Pharaoh Music Jukebox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/pharaoh.htm)•Zeus Music Jukebox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/Zeus.htm)•Emperor's Music Box (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/erotmk.htm)•Children of the Nile Musicbox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/cotn/cotn.htm)•
Children of the Nile & Quiz (http://panzerblitz.proboards9.com/index.cgi#test)

[Wen Kha-Ne]

I am re-posting this message because the 'submit reply' button turned off my computer.

Strange, I was certain that Deben referred to a weight of gold (and therefore any sort of weight?) and if CotN won't have "Kit" or Deben, (silver and gold weights I presume) what will it have, and how do you distinguish the currency grain from the actual grain? Does a percentage of it just get taken to the coffers?

[EmperorJay]

I am re-posting this message because the 'submit reply' button turned off my computer.

Strange, I was certain that Deben referred to a weight of gold (and therefore any sort of weight?) and if CotN won't have "Kit" or Deben, (silver and gold weights I presume) what will it have, and how do you distinguish the currency grain from the actual grain? Does a percentage of it just get taken to the coffers?
I doubt there will be a diffirence between currency grain and actual grain. Someone just has X amount of grain and he sets X apart for food and uses the rest for buying. I think.

[Wen Kha-Ne]

Yes, I was thinking they would at least look alike. But I still find something strange with some worker's wife going off to buy food (which I imagine a substantial amount would be grain) for food or money for money. I also don't understand how a person's wealth (in game) could randomly change because of the amount of grain they are keeping.

I would usually have no problem with this but either my mind is broken again or I just don't like the thought of people eating money. :eek:

[Miut]

Coins weren't used by Ancient Egypt, except for a very few minted by Alexander and his Ptolomeic dynasty which was the last one to rule Egypt.

It is we who think in terms of coins, not them. :) There are Threads that go into this in more depth from the actual recorded historical view point of real Egyptians.
Try this post of mine, and Jayl's, where he shows some actual weights used, and from Tony Leier, Tilted Mill Team member and Designer. ;)
http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100

Put Economy in the Search bar and look up all the other Posts too. I know going through all the old posts is a pain, but doing a very quick search before Posting is a good way of checking if your question has been asked before and answered by the Tilted Mill folk, as well as someone here with access to good historical information.

Keith, for instance, has done an excellent one, with pictures, on crafts which is analagous to your question about guilds.
http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36&highlight=Crafts
I don't think guilds as we think of them existed then - a Guild from medieval times was a place to be taught a trade that was run by people in that trade who made suire their standards of excellence never fell below acceptable levels. There is still the Ancient Guiild of Bowyers and Fletchers in the UK asnd I was taught fletching by one of the people from it.

http://www.sff.net/people/lisanne/Viking/images/Miut.gif

[Wen Kha-Ne]

Thank you for that Miut. All I knew about the currencies of ancient Egypt was that they didn't use coinage until the Ptolemaic dynasties. I didn't know the rest.

Interesting, what you say about guilds though. I don't necessarily mean the term guild, but any general construction allowing a union of artisans ( as they did with Pyramid construction? Small villages for their communities or something?) to work. I believe this is answered now. ;)

[Wen Kha-Ne]

Again, it won't let me edit.

You did say very few minted by the Ptolemaic dynasty. But how many coins did Cleopatra Thea mint? I am pretty sure she minted a lot more ones than her ancestors (Perhaps she would need to, considering how much her father spent :p )

[Keith]

The word "deben" means "ring". These standardized rings of a were used to measure weight. A old and middle kingdom gold deben ranged between 12-14 grams and a copper deben 27 grams.

For more info on the "deben" refer to this link:

http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/weights/weight.html

http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/horus2.gif
Keith Heitmann (mailto:dheitm8612@aol.com) a.k.a Nuthin-in-khamun
Listen to the music of the CityBuilders while online:
Caesar III Music Player (http://www.geocities.com/kheitmann1/C3Player.htm)•Pharaoh Music Jukebox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/pharaoh.htm)•Zeus Music Jukebox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/Zeus.htm)•Emperor's Music Box (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/erotmk.htm)•Children of the Nile Musicbox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/cotn/cotn.htm)•
Children of the Nile & Quiz (http://panzerblitz.proboards9.com/index.cgi#test)

[Miut]

Again, it won't let me edit.

You did say very few minted by the Ptolemaic dynasty. But how many coins did Cleopatra Thea mint? I am pretty sure she minted a lot more ones than her ancestors (Perhaps she would need to, considering how much her father spent :p )

Wen Kha-Ne, I may have picked you upe wrongly, but all the various Cleopatras were part of the Ptolomeic Dynasty started by Alexander the Great.
Here's a definitive list from the Tour Egypt site.

Ptolemaic Dynasty
This period is confusing due to all of the co-regencies. Scholars are not always in agreement on the order of reigns and, in some case, the reigns themselves, from Ptolemy VI through Ptolemy XI. In any event, Egypt's authority and wealth was intact until the death of Cleopatra, at which time, Egypt was overpowered by Rome.

Ptolemy I Soter I 323-285
Ptolemy II Philadelphus 282-246
Ptolemy III Euergeter I 246-222
Ptolemy IV Philopator 222-205
Ptolemy V Epiphanes 205-180
Ptolemy VI Philometor 180-164 &
163-145
Ptolemy VII Neos Philopator 145
Ptolemy VIII Euergetes II 170-163 &
145-116
Cleopatra III & Ptolemy IX Soter II 116-107 &
88-80
Cleopatra III & Ptolemy X Alexander I 107-88
Cleopatra Berenice 81-80
Ptolemy XI Alexander II 80
Ptolemy XII Neos Dionysos 80-58 &
55-51
Berenice IV 58-55
Cleopatra VII & Ptolemy XIII 51-47
Cleopatra & Ptolemy XIV 47-44
Cleopatra VII & Ptolemy XV Cesarion 44-30 BC

In Britain they did a wonderful TV series on the Cleopatras and I taped it. I have the tapes with me now, and a UK Video player - just no voltage transformer or TV capable of watching them on! One day... ;)

Will see if I can find anything on the number of coins minted by her but why not try yourself at this excellent site? They have a good Search engine.
http://www.touregypt.net

EDIT: Here I found this about coins, http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/newstoday06172001.htm
" Recent news centers on the findings of the ruins of a sunken city in Abukeer, Alexandria, 7 kilometers away from the shore."

"Also very rare coins were found amongst a heap of bronze coins. Some gold pieces from the time of Tutmose I were found including one which had the depiction of Alexandria the great riding a chariot driven by elephants. This coin is deemed extremely rare and it is only one of two such coins in the world. "

Also in the museum in Egypt.
"The Coins Collection:

There are thousands of coins though all of them are not on exhibition. They are mostly used in studies made by students and numismatologists. They belong to different periods including Ptolomaic, Graeco, Roman and Islamic. They are made of gold ,silver, and bronze. The most important, famous and unique pieces are three pieces from the late period .There is a hieroglyphic sign on the obverse of them called (Nub_Nefer) that means Fine Gold."

And at the undersea dig at Heracleum'
"Also Found were some bronze coins belonging to the eras of Ptolemy II and Ptolemy IV, together with one coin dating back to Cleopatra's reign. Other finds included a large collection of tableware including well made bronze utensils of various sizes showing seals and logos. All these were indicative of elegant urban life at the time."

About Heracleum,
"When Alexander the Great founded a new capital named after him, the town of Abu-Qeer formed the eastern corner of Alexandria. Abu-Qeer comprised three suburbs, Canup, Heracleum and Minotis. The first lay in the hinterland, the second on the coast, serving as the main harbor and the third on the left. At Heracleum, which housed the Greek temple of Hercules for which the city was named, the extinct Canupian branch of the Nile flowed into the Mediterranean."

Sorry, all I could find for now.
http://www.sff.net/people/lisanne/Viking/images/Miut.gif