PC stores and game genres.

[Cironir]

This is the follow-up to Kokopelli's message posted in the "Did you know..." thread over in the CotN section. :)


I guess based on the information, it is safe to say that if I was to go forward with my business plan of opening a store catered only to PC gamers, that I would have a nice customer base.

I think one of the reason why many "regular" stores carry less PC games (and more console titles) these days is that many of us "adult gamers" buy our games online. Of course, I may be totally off here and generalize my personal experiences, but I've not bought even a single PC game in a normal store in at least one decade. I buy my games online, where I usually face a much better selection and more competitive prices. Well, I guess it's more the selection than the prices. I don't mind paying two or three Euro more if I know that I get my order within two days, or if my game vendor goes out of their way to get ahold of an older title for me. It's also more comfortable. Plus, I think, PC gamers are much more likely to have "full access" to the internet than the majority of the console owners. Consoles are still more "toy" than "computer".

Also, to be even more speculative, I wager that the average console owner is younger than the average PC gamer. If I was twelve years old, I'd probably have a much easier time to squeeze a $250 console out of my (grand)parents than a $1500 computer. While kids tend to have indirect access to money (their parent's :D), they are less likely to have a credit card ... and it's harder to convince conservative parents to order something online. So, this clientele may be more likely to buy games in "real" stores, as opposed to the more independent crowd that purchases PC games.


I get older, I RTS titles (including CBs) appeal to me more than FPS titles. The main reason is that RTS titles offer new features opposed to the usual b.s. repackaged in a new box ala-FPS. I am probably one of the few people that though Far Cry and Doom3 sucked a toad's rear.

Both of these games had an "Woah!" effect that lasted for half an hour. Doom 3 is visually superbly done, and its frightening atmosphere is crisp, but I don't see any innovation in the gameplay at all. In many ways, it's the same as Doom ten years ago, with better (much better) visuals. It's a very hyped game, and clearly not worth the high release price. Far Cry looked stunning, too, and it did introduce some new features, but the AI was the pits.

That said, I'm not really into FPS, either. I loved Doom, Doom 2, Heretic and Hexen, and after that no FPS managed to attract my interest. I may just have outgrown the genre, though I don't really think it has much to do with age. Well, maybe it does ... as one gets older, priorities and expectations shift a little, and the quality of how we spend our limited spare time gains significance. In general, though, it's probably just an individual choice. I know "younger people" who by far prefer an intellectual challenge over a twichting activity, and I know "older folk" who'll kick my butt at FPS. It's probably just a matter of what one considers "fun".

As for RTS ... I'd put builders in their own category. At the end of the day, a game like CotN has very little in common with a title like Rise of Nations. My biggest issue with RTS games like AoE, AoM, RoN is that they are more about reaction than strategy. That's why I much prefer turn-based strategy games such as the Age of Wonders series or the Heroes of Might Magic games (except HoMM IV). The notable exception here are the Kohan games (Kohan II is due end of the month), which are about the only RTS titles that really focus on strategy. I find it hard to believe that no one "cloned" the philosophy of the first Kohan in 2001. I guess they were just too average looking, so that people got turned off by the surface before they could look at the substance. But Kohan II should change this as it looks gorgeous. All other combat-focused RTS games are not my thing, though. I don't want to rush peasants and time my clicks. :)

[Kokopelli]

That is very good input about purchasing games on-line. I would have to do some research on that to decide what route to follow. An on-line game store could ship world-wide. But a small "mom/pop" store would be rather limited. For me, I usually hit Electronics Boutique in the mall when a new title comes out. The manager there enjoys a wide genre of games as well, so I have never encountered what other users here have described. But I have purchased more obscure titles on-line in the past.


For me, I knew Doom3 would be trying to relive the classic and for the first few minutes, it was intense with the lights off and a set of headphones on. Afterwhile, it became boring. I enjoyed Far Cry up untill the introduction of the crygens. After that, I had a hard time thuroughly enjoying it.

Turn-based strategy titles offer a unique form of gameplay, especially if you mess up your strategy and the CPU hands your tail to you on a platter. A fun wargame IMHO, is Soldiers: Heroes of WWII. It does not follow the usual "clickfest" of other RTS titles and offers players more than one way to complete the objectives. What I like about the CB games, is that you can sort of play "God" with your people. If you are feeling especially malicious, you can be a cold-hearted bastard and create a hell for your citizens. Stuff like that you cannot find in other genres.

[Cironir]

That is very good input about purchasing games on-line. I would have to do some research on that to decide what route to follow.

I honestly don't know if it's representative, it's just an observation based on my own shopping behaviour, and that of my friends. I also don't have a decent store nearby that offers the selection I'm usually looking for. This may well be different in the United States. :)

[Celebithil Dae]

I've honestly have never had a problem finding gmaes that i was looking for (that is, if they are less than 5 years old... :p)

And im less than 20, and FPS just doesnt fit me, im too slow, and i prefer tot hink about what im doing, instead of walk, shoot, walk shoot, and then shoot some more (or maybe blow someting up with a bazooka, i dunno).

[Kokopelli]

Very true, that is by no means a representative population sample. But it is input from a PC gamer and something to keep in mind when getting ready to build my business plan. One of my main issues I am facing, is where to look at establishing a business. The city of Jacksonville, FL is only 500,000, but it is geographically the largest city in the US. Needless to say, there is alot to be gathered before talking to the bank. hehe

[NeilV]

After reading this post it got me thinking about the type of game I play and what I play looking at what games I brought over the summer I used to think I was a big FPS fan but looking at what I brought

Empires Dawn of the Modern World (I Liked EE and was interested in what improvements could be made to the EE engine)

Star Wars Jedi Knight Jedi Academy (its Star Wars and have all the other Jedi ones)

Anno 1503 the new world (because lots of people praised it on this forum)

Railroad Tycoon 3 (loved the other 2 and decided to pick 3rd one up)

Homeworld 2 (because the first game and stand alone add on were so good)

Star Wars Knights of the old Republic (its Star Wars and have hade neverwinters nights which I did like)

Lords of the Realm III (had to try it)

Beyond Divinity (got Devine Divinity so got this one two)

Cold War Conflicts (sudden strike Clone using same engine so thought I give it a go)

Tropico 2 (because lots of people praised it on this forum)

All RTS/CB Or RPG Apart from Jedi Academy (but that doesn’t count as its Star wars)

The last FPS would have been in May when I got Deus EX Invisible war (though tries to be a RPG)

So maybe my gaming style is changing with out me knowing the other thing I noticed is all the game are copies (Same engine slightly different graphics new story) or second or third in a ongoing series which is possibly why I picked them up but I don’t think there are many new games out there at the moment

Most of these game were brought in a shop as I like to browses and see what there is (and I am a sucker for a deal) but if I am after a game and don’t find what I want I will go on-line and order it.

But thats just me :D

[Kokopelli]

I think that is any gamer that has access to a credit card. it is a lot easier than fighting with traffic and crowds and you have the added bonus of peering out the window for the "Santa Claus" riding in the brown/white sleigh. LOL

[Cironir]

Railroad Tycoon 3 (loved the other 2 and decided to pick 3rd one up)

They've released a free expansion just a few days ago. It's a 125 MB download. RTT3 was a bit of a mixed bag for me. Visually, it was really impressive, but it felt a little "dumbed down". Hard to describe, though, it just didn't seem what to be what it could have been.

Beyond Divinity (got Devine Divinity so got this one two)

I tried to like it, but especially Beyond Divinity just felt strange to me. I didn't like the dual-character system. DD was the better game, in my opionion (but it still was "sluggish").

[Kokopelli]

They've released a free expansion just a few days ago. It's a 125 MB download.

Is that for RRT3 and if so, where can you dl it? I have that infernal hurricane rolling through that destroyed my fishing trip this weekend, so I could handle some new stuff to play while waiting for the week of the 5th.

[Cironir]

Is that for RRT3 and if so, where can you dl it?

The official announcement and the download locations were posted here (http://www.gathering.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=23536). I had some trouble getting it, but once I had it, it worked fine. The expansion adds some locos, maps and various bug fixes. Unfortunately, you still have to place water towers and maintenance sheds outside of stations ... that's my one big gripe with the game. :(

[Kokopelli]

Awesome, ty for the link. :cool:

[Son of Moose]

As a point of interest, what do you all think are the best and/or most ambitious RTS and TBS games ever produced? (Perhaps you could supply some reasons for your choice).

RTS:

Rise of Nations (Sheer scope --- covers whole of history)
C and C: Generals (Great editor + high pop cap)

TBS:

Civ3 (Seems the correct thing to say!! :) )

Unfortunately we do not seem to have many TBS games available here in South Africa. Therefore Civ3 is the only TBS I have bought. :(

[Cironir]

Rise of Nations (Sheer scope --- covers whole of history)

I may be an exception here, but I never really felt attracted to the "go from stone age to modern age" system in games. It alwas felt like it was a technology race, which added heaps of stress. I did enjoy RoN for a few hours, and I don't regret the purchase, but in essence it was just more of the same: time your peasants properly, pump out units as fast as you can. Kohan is really different in that regard. I really encourage you to download the old Kohan demo (http://www.gamershell.com/download_4215.shtml). The upcoming Kohan II keeps the same gameplay philosophy, but adds gorgeous graphics (http://www.gamershell.com/download_6023.shtml). These guys really know how to add strategy to RTS. :)


Unfortunately we do not seem to have many TBS games available here in South Africa. Therefore Civ3 is the only TBS I have bought. :(

No "Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic"? It's the closest TBS to Master of Magic that I ever played. The AI is somewhat weak, but I still play it daily. It looks so good, too!

[Kokopelli]

Following Son of Moose's request:

RTS:

C&C Generals and RON for the same reasons you listed.
Soldiers: Heroes of WWII: offers a nice physics engine and unique gameplay style
Desert Rats vs Afrika Korps: a lot of different units to choose from


TBS:

Civilization3 is about the only TBS I really got into. However, I have heard the Combat Mission series is pretty good.

[Keith]

Desert Rats vs AK is too much like a arcade game IMHO. I didn't like it at all.

Combat Mission: Afrika Korps is far superior. You can mod CMAK with new sounds and modify the graphics used in the game for scenery, vehicles, and troops, etc. Using just the CMAK demo I created a bunch of new graphic mods for the game.

[Azeem]

I think one of the most overlooked RTS games that comes close to successfully combining the careful strategy of TBS and the real-time of RTS is "Seven Kingdoms II". Often known as "the thinking man's WarCraft". SKII had a very complex and unique diplomatic and espionage system. Though there could have been troop formations and a much more in-depth combat system, cheap tricks like "rushing" never works since units built early on are merely weak conscripts. Thus the player is either forced to hire expensive mercenaries (which requires the player to build a strong, stable economy through trade or manufacturing) or wait for troops to gradually become more experienced.

As for TBS games, I still play "Master of Magic." :) I found "Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic" to be a mixed package. On the one hand, it does feel reminiscent of the classic "Master of Magic". On the other hand, it has a highly frustrating battle system (don't you just hate it when your units miss their targets 66% of the time?).

[Cironir]

As for TBS games, I still play "Master of Magic." :) I found "Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic" to be a mixed package. On the one hand, it does feel reminiscent of the classic "Master of Magic". On the other hand, it has a highly frustrating battle system (don't you just hate it when your units miss their targets 66% of the time?).

Very true! :) It's just the closest to MoM that I've found. In spite of its weaknesses, I still enjoy its tactical combat component. I sorely miss that in other TBS titles, and as shallow as it may sound, I really fell in love with the graphics!

[Kokopelli]

Desert Rats vs AK is too much like a arcade game IMHO. I didn't like it at all.

Combat Mission: Afrika Korps is far superior. You can mod CMAK with new sounds and modify the graphics used in the game for scenery, vehicles, and troops, etc. Using just the CMAK demo I created a bunch of new graphic mods for the game.

Yeah, it is arcadish and a bit pathetic for RTS titles. About the only thing I liked about it was the units and I only listed it as a title I owned. Asside from that, it is evidence that the first three quarters of '04 have been pretty pathetic for the games released. (Save Soldiers and Thief 3)

[NSymon]

There are no decent game stores around near me and the one that is sells mostly console games, so ordering PC games online is just easy and convient.

I've played all sorts of games over the years from FPS to adventure and city building. The last great FPS game for me was Quake 2/3 after that nothing seems to compare to them, or I'm just getting older and they no longer appeal to me. Although I did buy Doom III and enjoyed it, but the online aspect of recent FPS games just doesn't seem to equate the same excitement as Quake 2/3 conjured. The only city building games I've enjoyed has been Impressions series from the days of Caesar and Pharaoh remains one of my all time favourites. The Myst Series by Cyan Worlds I just love as well.

[Son of Moose]

Cironir:

I will certainly check out Kohan in the near future. I do seem to remember seeing an Age of Wonders title on the shelves a while ago --- but have never seen EU or HOI or any of those much-vaunted TBS titles.

In many respects, I do tend to agree with you that a really in-depth RTS set in a single time period should easily trump one covering multiple periods in history for the exact reasons that you state. However, from my fairly limited excursion into the genre (or any games really) I have yet to find one that truly fits the bill. :( RoN (despite these short-comings) certainly is a fascinating game to play which feels like you are actually playing several games consecutively because of the changing buildings and units.

I think I previously wondered where the RTS genre was going as RoN is an extremely difficult act to follow... :)

[Cironir]

In many respects, I do tend to agree with you that a really in-depth RTS set in a single time period should easily trump one covering multiple periods in history for the exact reasons that you state.

Trust me, the game you want is Kohan II. :p Release date in the US is September 21st, and in Europe September 30th. It sounds a bit pathetic, but it's the only RTS I'll play. Here, you don't create individual units, but you mix and match "companies". A company consists of front line units, flank units and support units, so you can actually think up interesting and unique "companies". Resource gathering is an afterthought, the focus is entirely on strategy (rather than tactics). Kohan and its expansion suffered a bit from its mediocre appearance in 2001, or it would have been a sweeping success, but Kohan 2 should be able to compete with every RTS that is out there (see the video link I posted above).

[NeilV]

I really liked the Cossacks games their attitude to resorces was diffrent as you had to support your troops as well as create them you could have large battles with the american conquest from the same makers you could have up to 16000 units on the battle ground and you was able to use tactical formations Cossacks 2 is out soon as should be a good game as well but Kohan II. does sound intresting will have to take a look :)