Foodless Noble?

[Wetnefer]

Yet another noob food question, I'm afraid. Sorry.

I have four nobles in my fledgling city, all together, all near the palace - which is some little way from the hoi-polloi. Over a year, they eat, shop, and are generally fairly merry. Towards the end of the year, they all have only a couple of food left. Then harvest arrives and they are back up around 300 or so.

Well, three of them are. The fourth doesn't seem to be getting any food at all, year after year. He's not so merry, actually. More like protesting his sandals off. (Although it's not like he can actually afford sandals....)

There is (I think) far more food coming in than is needed. Some of it is taxed, some of it spoils, but none seems to end up in the pocket of that noble.

Is this possible? I thought that harvest "automagically" appeared in the estate. What gives? Could it be that someone in the family is "stuck" or something and that is fouling up everything else?

[Dog of the Sun]

The noble has to go to the bakery, at least it seems. There is some other post like this on the fourms I read or very close to.

[sitearm]

Wetnefer: By nobles you mean townhouse residents, right? They get their food directly from the farm harvest. If flood fails or if you haven't built max farms, they may go short.

Use Pharaoh Edicts to either Release Food or stop taxes. Recommend Release Food... it's one-time and you don't have to remember to turn it off.

[Wetnefer]

Just to clarify: Yes, the problem is townhouse residents, whom I don't believe frequent bakeries. (Or am I mistaken?)

I did use release food the first couple of years I noticed this, but after multiple abundant harvests I let him stew just to see if it would fix itself. (This is the first Grand Campaign scenario, easy tier, normal difficulty... plenty of harvest available).

After all, his three neighbours seemed to be getting theirs and food is building up in the Nome granary. That should mean that there is "extra", right?

FWIW, I have also seen the granary I built in the second tutorial stand empty for years and years despite nearly perfect tax coverage and the bakeries stuffed to overflowing. I demolished it and rebuilt it and the very next harvest it had a nice selection of goods. Go figure. (In that case I put it down to the fact that I placed it "backward" by accident at first, so I hit undo, and placed it rotated it to face the street.)

[sitearm]

When he or she shops do they ever have a servant with them? Just guessing here... :)

I did use release food the first couple of years I noticed this, but after multiple abundant harvests I let him stew just to see if it would fix itself... his three neighbours seemed to be getting theirs...

[Wetnefer]

When he or she shops do they ever have a servant with them? Just guessing here... :)

There is little movement around that townhouse in general, which I put down to the fact that they don't have any food to buy anything with. The father protests, the wife preens, and the son... sons.

When I pumped in food, I did see the wife leave with a servant in tow looking for pottery. This specific time she got to the end of the front path of the estate, turned around, and went back in. Having seen this, I checked both pottery shops and both claimed to have goods on hand (some and adequate I think if memory serves). Odd. The family seems determined to be unhappy (low common goods, low luxury goods, religious grief, etc.)

FWIW, this being my first experiment with a real scenario, I've made a couple of... inadvisable planning choices. Like having about nine servants' huts. (I thought I'd need one per noble and one per luxury shop...) Actually, I've made a lot of "interesting" decisions. I'll get the hang of it eventually....

[MAX-1]

Farm to townhouse ratio. Make sure that you have max farms built and occupied. Anything short of max farms will result in a townhouse going short on food.

[Tontoman]

Was that townhouse built later than the others? It could just be undergowing the building process... so it uses up food when the others don't. I've only just recently caught one upgrading (small to medium size) while I was watching it and noticed it uses a BUG chunk of food doing so. Maybe the same for other upgrades (pool, wall etc). So a new townhouse could remain short due to upgrades, the upgrade I saw left them with only about 20 food.

Also townhouses get food depending on their size... so a small town house will not get as much food from the harvest pool as a large.

[Cassiopeia]

You might try deleting that townhouse and building a new one.

I had a similar problem last night. End townhouse in the row, roads on three sides. He was stuck in the house bartering for baskets. She just stood around. There were no children. House was upgraded and they had food, but no goods and red icons out the wazoo.

I deleted the house and built a new one. New tenants moved in and are as happy as clams.

On a similar note, has anyone had trouble with a palace upgrade? I was adding on the granary, and construction has been stuck at 74% for several years and won't move.

[Maatkaamun]

On a similar note, has anyone had trouble with a palace upgrade? I was adding on the granary, and construction has been stuck at 74% for several years and won't move.

What else are your bricklayers building? If they're focused on projects closer by, they won't get back to the palace until that's closest again. Otherwise, what are the bricklayers doing? It's more bricks that drive the progression of palace upgrades...

[Maatkaamun]

The noble has to go to the bakery, at least it seems. There is some other post like this on the fourms I read or very close to.

Just to clarify: Yes, the problem is townhouse residents, whom I don't believe frequent bakeries. (Or am I mistaken?)

Nobles don't get their food from bakeries. If they don't get food from the harvest or from your edicts, they will go hungry. (Just to clarify :) )

[Cassiopeia]

What else are your bricklayers building? If they're focused on projects closer by, they won't get back to the palace until that's closest again. Otherwise, what are the bricklayers doing? It's more bricks that drive the progression of palace upgrades...


I know that. It was the only thing going on at the moment because I had to save up enough bricks to build it. They started it and wouldn't finish it. Other projects were started afterwards, and finished. And it's been my (limited) experience that once a project has all its bricks and has reached the construction point, the bricklayers stay on it until it's done.

Because they haul to the closest site, I try to be careful about the order in which I build things.

[Maatkaamun]

I know that. It was the only thing going on at the moment because I had to save up enough bricks to build it. They started it and wouldn't finish it. Other projects were started afterwards, and finished. And it's been my (limited) experience that once a project has all its bricks and has reached the construction point, the bricklayers stay on it until it's done.

Because they haul to the closest site, I try to be careful about the order in which I build things.

Well, it sounds like you've managed everything right, and that your bricklayers aren't sitting on their duffs refusing to work. In this case, I'd post a saved game to the tech-issues forum, as a possible bug, so the devs can delve deeper if they want.

To fix your current situation, I think you have two options: reload to before the upgrade was started, or demolish your palace and start over. Not solutions I'd particularly like, though, so if you find another way, or if it finishes, let us know. :o

As to finishing a project they start, that's true for general construction projects. Palace upgrades, however, are treated more like pyramid construction. Each load of bricks progresses the construction further, thereby not following the "all bricks, then all construction" rule of buildings and such.

[Wetnefer]

Was that townhouse built later than the others? It could just be undergowing the building process... so it uses up food when the others don't. I've only just recently caught one upgrading (small to medium size) while I was watching it and noticed it uses a BUG chunk of food doing so. Maybe the same for other upgrades (pool, wall etc). So a new townhouse could remain short due to upgrades, the upgrade I saw left them with only about 20 food.

Also townhouses get food depending on their size... so a small town house will not get as much food from the harvest pool as a large.
These are both interesting observations. In fact, the townhouse in question was the last built of the four, but only by a few seconds. Thinking about it now, I can't remember if I did an undo and re-place to adjust its facing.... Hmm.

It could be an upgrading issue since it definitely had managed to get at least a pool and maybe a couple of other upgrades before I noticed the father protesting. (I guess that means that things were OK at least for a while.) On the other hand, once things go bad there is no food to do any upgrades with so you'd expect this to be a one year thing at most.

I did look at the townhouse and its neighbours at Shemu several years running. Immediately before harvest, everyone tended to be down around a dozen food. After harvest, the others were around three hundred except for this one who was unchanged. I wonder if that ties into the "smaller estate, less food" thing? If the larger landowners get "paid" before the smaller ones, could the food somehow run out before it gets to them?

I had a similar problem last night. End townhouse in the row, roads on three sides. He was stuck in the house bartering for baskets. She just stood around. There were no children. House was upgraded and they had food, but no goods and red icons out the wazoo.
That sounds pretty much like my problem. He was either sleeping or protesting and she was preening. Demolition seems a tad drastic, though, especially in a small city. What happens to the associated farms in the meantime? Are they abandoned or is there a year's grace?

Farm to townhouse ratio. Make sure that you have max farms built and occupied. Anything short of max farms will result in a townhouse going short on food.
On the other hand, this could also be a possibility. In any given year I was usually building something that would require a farmer to move up in the world. On the other other hand, food was ending up in the granary, which must mean that there was enough to go around, right?


Anyway, it looks as though I have much more experimentation to do. In common with many here, I have limited time to play (heck, I'm only about a third done my first Pharaoh peaceful career!) so it takes me much more elapsed time to "put two and two together" than those who can invest more time.

The point being, I suppose, that I guess I do miss a little Tropico-style dialog window showing the last dozen or so thoughts/decisions of each of my CotNizens. I think the lack of that information, in combination with what appear to be some remaining "treadmilling" problems post-patch, makes it tricky to figure out what is actually wrong. The icon system is a little too "generic" for me I guess: it'd be nice to know that not only was worship missed, but specifically because the CotNizen was busy shopping at the time. Taken in isolation, this might not bevery useful but if you see "missed due to shopping" over and over as a pattern, you can easily do something about it.

I realise that we're supposed to let the little stuff slide ("if it's green, don't sweat it"), which is a laudable game-play mechanic. The problem for me is that the little problems can snowball rather rapidly into "Hey, where did all my priests go?" - a question which can be tricky to answer after the fact and with an appropriate game-play mechanical answer. By which I mean that it is not enough to know that they left because they didn't have enough common wares. You need to know why they don't, so that you can do something about it. Fortunately, the heirarchical nature of the job tree and the limited number of truly important jobs means that the task of babysitting the important ones is not overwhelming. It does seem a little contrary to design intent, though.

[imhotep3147]

Try adding more farmhouses. If you have only your limit of farmhouses built and functioning and a townhouse upgrades perhaps it "took" farmhouses from your lower level townhouse. Always make sure you have enough farmers to allow growth and evolution of townhouses and your palace.

Hope this is somewhat easy to understand.....just got off work and I have no brainpower left. :D

[Tontoman]

I did look at the townhouse and its neighbours at Shemu several years running. Immediately before harvest, everyone tended to be down around a dozen food. After harvest, the others were around three hundred except for this one who was unchanged. I wonder if that ties into the "smaller estate, less food" thing? If the larger landowners get "paid" before the smaller ones, could the food somehow run out before it gets to them?

Good question and not sure. According to the manual all farm output should go into a communitity dump and then get split up but who knows. Will keep an eye out. BTW, annoyed nobles don't loose farms. Only if they get smaller or leave altogether do you lose the farms.

One thing to watch out for in case you didn't know... don't build shops or craftman (ie bricklayers) during the planting or harvest. These workers come from the farm population so you will lose farmers and thus crops for that season if you build then. I wait until just after the last field is taken in then go crazy :P

T.

[magnum]

I belive much of it come then the stupid nobles spend all their food on luxury items and end up empty of food.
The total ironi if is they buy an expensive tomb and starve to death :D

[Keith]

I belive much of it come then the stupid nobles spend all their food on luxury items and end up empty of food.
The total ironi if is they buy an expensive tomb and starve to death :D
Nobles are the source of food for entertainers, servants, and luxury shopkeepers directly. They are paid for their services in food. So not all the food is wasted on entertainment.

A local bakery is usually needed.

[jbaby901]

Farms are usually the problem when I have a noble that doesnt get any food during harvest. When I compare *max farms* to the actual farms I have, I find that I usually can add 4 or more farms. If you dont have max farms, That means that there is a noble or two that has a small number or maybe no farms to manage. When you increase the number of farm to the *max* , all nobles have farms to manage and all of them get *paid * at harvest.

[Raccoon_TOF]

I tend to keep my current farms under my max farms by whatever the size that my palace supports...this way, if a townhouse DEVOLVES or a noble gets stuck, cranky, and moves out, I don't end up with the snowball effect of my having farms OVER my current max farms allowed number (which causes unhappy farmers and possibly vagrants...adding further stress to the entire community...). However, Pharaoh always seems to get enough food, and when keeping my numbers under by the amount of farms that my palace will support (except at the very start of a scen of course when I use all the farms I can) I almost never have vagrants from farmers, nor nobles going hungry (for lack of farms...lack of harvest, that's another story...)

[vic_4]

I often have more farm then allowed, but I never got a vagrant from them, they just revert to villagers, or if I am building something a slot is immediatly freed. My farmers stay in the green as a whole so I do not worry for a few disgruntled ones.

[sitearm]

Racoon_TOF: Actually, it's a recommendation from the Devs (http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=34891&postcount=3) to deliberately place more farms than your current Max Farms limit, to accomodate when townhouses upgrade.

No harmful effect from having more farms placed than can be filled. I do it all the time.

I tend to keep my current farms under my max farms,,,

[MAX-1]

I've always found that haveing about 3-5 farms ready and waiting above my max farms. The benifit to this is ~ 1) max farms filled and working = max food produced for nobels and farmers thus the trickle down theory is always at play and everyone is happiest then. 2) Nobel home upgrade has no negative effect to food yeild. 3) The peasents are always eager to move up from being just a villager or vagrant and when you do expand goverment workers, the farmers that move out and up are quickly replaced.

[ReSimDave]

(Disclaimer: Non-CotN-expert estimate follows)

Problem: A Noble household has zero food, but there is apparently much food available from harvest, Bakeries, and Granaries.

My assessment: The amount of food in Bakeries and Granaries is irrelevant to Noble households because that's not where they get their food. Nobles take their cut directly from "their own" Farms' harvest, before taxation collects Pharoah's share for Bakeries and Granaries.

If, for any reason, there aren't enough active Farmhouses for all your Nobles, the last to move in may have no tenant farmers from which to take his cut. The other Nobles may be quite prosperous while the latecomer starves.

For example, suppose you had 4 Townhouses (Noble estates) and 20 Farms.
Suppose three Nobles move in and do well, upgrading to Large and Medium Estates which can manage 8 and 6 Farms, respectively. Those three Nobles could be doing quite well, but if the fourth Noble arrives too late there won't be any
Farmers to work his estate. Even if you'd "zoned" 100 Farms, he'll starve until enough actually move in... which may be awhile if they're all dissatisfied or you're out of Villagers.

That's my guess, anyway.

[EmperorJay]

That's what I think too. Actually, that must be it.

There's an edict that allows the Nobles to keep their taxes. However, the farms supported by the palace will still provide food to the city in that case, that proves that farms are assigned to a specific home. (To me it does anyway :p )

[MAX-1]

(Disclaimer: Non-CotN-expert estimate follows)

Problem: A Noble household has zero food, but there is apparently much food available from harvest, Bakeries, and Granaries.

My assessment: The amount of food in Bakeries and Granaries is irrelevant to Noble households because that's not where they get their food. Nobles take their cut directly from "their own" Farms' harvest, before taxation collects Pharoah's share for Bakeries and Granaries.

If, for any reason, there aren't enough active Farmhouses for all your Nobles, the last to move in may have no tenant farmers from which to take his cut. The other Nobles may be quite prosperous while the latecomer starves.

For example, suppose you had 4 Townhouses (Noble estates) and 20 Farms.
Suppose three Nobles move in and do well, upgrading to Large and Medium Estates which can manage 8 and 6 Farms, respectively. Those three Nobles could be doing quite well, but if the fourth Noble arrives too late there won't be any
Farmers to work his estate. Even if you'd "zoned" 100 Farms, he'll starve until enough actually move in... which may be awhile if they're all dissatisfied or you're out of Villagers.

That's my guess, anyway.
B I N G O

And that fourth nobel may have to go hungry for a year, provided that the other nobels don't upgrade during the planting and harvest. Yea the fourth nobel will get some farmers eventually, provideing that the farmers are happy, more will move in. But if they move in during harvest they won't get any feilds worked 'cause they didn't plant any feilds and will have to hungry for a year too.

[Raccoon_TOF]

Racoon_TOF: Actually, it's a recommendation from the Devs (http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=34891&postcount=3) to deliberately place more farms than your current Max Farms limit, to accomodate when townhouses upgrade.

No harmful effect from having more farms placed than can be filled. I do it all the time.

No harmful effect, until one of the townhouses devolves...because there IS a harmful effect from having more OCCUPIED farms than your current Max Farms. It causes farmers to first become frustrated (no food since they don't have anyone governing them, they don't work and don't take their cut) and then those same farmers will move out...and since of course they are usually already upset from no food/no wares they will become vagrants, not villagers.

Mind you, this isn't a problem if a townhouse evolves again before the farmers move out, but personally I prefer to play it safe and keep a slight Max Farms surplus, rather than a slight placed farms surplus...I can deal with having a little less than my maximum food production a lot easier than I can deal with having a growing stream of vagrants every time a noble gets stuck hunting/bad flood/etc.

[vic_4]

My approach is completly opposite: I build at the beginning as many farms as possible for the number of nobles I want to place. For example if I plan to have ten nobles, at the very beginning I place may be four nobles and all the ninety farms which will be allowed by luxury townhoses and enhanced palace. This way I never worry not to maximize food production and I can program what it looks to me the more efficient cluster of farms for that city.

[Raccoon_TOF]

Well, I do make placeholders for the farms that aren't built...I use planters! This helps immensely for the design period (always hitting pause as the first thing I do when entering a scen and begin city layout...) but I don't place the actual farms themselves until needed.

[sitearm]

Well, sounds like 2 approaches that work... game accomodates different styles... and passionate interest in city.society building strategies :p

* moves on... ;) *
Well, I do make placeholders for the farms that aren't built...I use planters! This helps immensely for the design period (always hitting pause as the first thing I do when entering a scen and begin city layout...) but I don't place the actual farms themselves until needed.