Why are there no black Africans in the game??

[thetruth]

This is annoying that in 2004 games like this perpetuate racist thinking from years ago that Egyptians weren't black. Every other country in Africa had blacks in them but since Egypt is so well known for its great civilization nobody wants to give credit to the Africans. The fact that tilted mill looked this over is sad and shows the primitive thinking among Americans today.

[OhhJim]

I believe that the art from that time doesn't depict people who look like that, but it's a good question, and certainly worth discussing. There were certainly non-Egyptian Africans in Egypt, so yeah, let's see them walking around.

[thetruth]

There are tons of pictures of dark brown and black people drawn for art but people fail to recognize that, and the pigment holds today even through thousand of years of erosion. I mean it is not even a debate b/c Egypt is in Africa, a continent with blistering hot weather, hence the dark skin. There may have been non Egyptians but they didn't dominate the place, plus the same argument can be said for Rome or Greece but do you see Africans walking around there we those cultures are depicted?......nope.

[OhhJim]

Good points.

[Azeem]

Ancient Egyptian murals depicting Nubians (who were as powerful and advanced as the Egyptians for a time) show them as Black Africans. People in North Africa are not all black, but tend to appear more Mediterranean. Of course, there were undoubtedly Egyptians that were black. Egyptians certainly weren't white, but they're not all black either. I'm not entirely sure, but I think they're more related to the Semitic peoples.

[Elvenwarrior2001]

Is this thread in TWO forums? :confused:

And as far as I know...Egyptians had a dark colour of skin, but it wasn't totally black. Just dark.

Elven

[thetruth]

"Ancient Egyptian murals depicting Nubians (who were as powerful and advanced as the Egyptians for a time) show them as Black Africans. People in North Africa are not all black, but tend to appear more Mediterranean. Of course, there were undoubtedly Egyptians that were black. Egyptians certainly weren't white, but they're not all black either. I'm not entirely sure, but I think they're more related to the Semitic peoples."

Egyptians were black period, the people in north Africa today are a mixture of black and Arabs, but most of those Arabs were not there thousands of years ago, the same way most Americans you see now are not what they were in a only a couple of hundreds of years ago. I just don't understand why it’s ok to say every other African country had black people except for Egypt? I suggest looking this up and reading books b/c the truth is appalling. I am not attacking people but if you know the history of the world you know that the lies that were told years ago when people were not so accepting affect us today and this discussion is a testament to that. I mean from a common sense point of view it is obvious that these people were like those of the continent they were in. Let us not forget that Egypt Ethiopia Nubian and other African countries all traded and were in contact with each other.

[Elvenwarrior2001]

Geez. Cool down buddy. They're not "lies." Misconceptions, well you could argue that. But nobody claims that the egyptians were a bunch fair skinned people. And most people know their skin was a darkish colour. Just because it's not so in a game doesn't mean the whole world has no clue what colour of skin the people in ancient Egypt had. Instead of "lies" try the word, "oversight." ;)

Elven

[martouf]

Egyptians did originated, believe it or not from West-Central Africa. Thousands of years before Egypt was founded during the "hunter and gatherer" era, Africa including the Sahara desert was very green. Then when the Sahara region began to dry out and water began to disappear. The people of the land followed the water and animals. People moved in all directions, South, North, East, and West etc. A few groups arrived in what is today Egypt.

-martouf

[Keith]

Egyptians did originated, believe it or not from West-Central Africa. Thousands of years before Egypt was founded during the "hunter and gatherer" era, Africa including the Sahara desert was very green. Then when the Sahara region began to dry out and water began to disappear. The people of the land followed the water and animals. People moved in all directions, South, North, East, and West etc. A few groups arrived in what is today Egypt.

-martouf
There was an interesting program on last year about that. DNA markers from the ancestors of that Khalihari tribe through the male line have been found in every race on earth.The tribe having the "oldest" versions of the genes hence being the root from which all the others have sprung.

They traced the route through east Africa, through Egypt, the middle east, into India, SE Asia, and Australia where the aborigines were cut off when the land bridge between it and SE Asia was submerged. Then up through central asia around Uzbekistan, etc. and into Europe from there and NE Siberia. From Siberia across the land bridge into North America, down through Central American and finally South America.

I think it may have been a Nova or Scientific American broadcast on the PBS network. It could have also been a National Geographic program on the same network. I don't recall.
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[EmperorJay]

"Ancient Egyptian murals depicting Nubians (who were as powerful and advanced as the Egyptians for a time) show them as Black Africans. People in North Africa are not all black, but tend to appear more Mediterranean. Of course, there were undoubtedly Egyptians that were black. Egyptians certainly weren't white, but they're not all black either. I'm not entirely sure, but I think they're more related to the Semitic peoples."

Egyptians were black period, the people in north Africa today are a mixture of black and Arabs, but most of those Arabs were not there thousands of years ago, the same way most Americans you see now are not what they were in a only a couple of hundreds of years ago. I just don't understand why it’s ok to say every other African country had black people except for Egypt? I suggest looking this up and reading books b/c the truth is appalling. I am not attacking people but if you know the history of the world you know that the lies that were told years ago when people were not so accepting affect us today and this discussion is a testament to that. I mean from a common sense point of view it is obvious that these people were like those of the continent they were in. Let us not forget that Egypt Ethiopia Nubian and other African countries all traded and were in contact with each other.A few points here.

"I just don't understand why it’s ok to say every other African country had black people except for Egypt?"

There's a difference in black and black. Egyptians were probably not as black as the people more south, that doesn't mean they were white!

"I mean from a common sense point of view it is obvious that these people were like those of the continent they were in."

So all Europeans are white? Surely not, the people around the Mediterrenean have a tan! The African continent is very big, so there's a variety in skin color.

Edit: But let's not make a big deal about this, I initially didn't want to respond and I won't comment on this any further, I'll leave this post be though.

[Azeem]

The Berber tribes in North Africa were not "black" but Mediterranean. North Africa includes Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt. Morroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, and Libyans were descendants of the Berber tribes. No continent truly has one "race" (actually, "race" is an imaginary concept as there is no biological basis for it). For example, Asians are not all "Mongoloid," as there are also Turkics and Malayo-Polyo peoples. The Berber tribes have been there before the Arabs entered North Africa.

A book written by an Egyptologist that I read for a project on mummification practice mentioned that the origins of the Egyptian people is not truly certain, but there are some indications that they may have some relation to the Semitic peoples.

But if you're referring to the absolute origin of all peoples of the world, then everyone's ancestors are obviously from Africa.

[Jayhawk]

Egyptians were black period,
I guess you should rename yourself: thelies, as the Egyptian were definitely not of sub-saharan negroid stock. They don't even depict themselves as black-skinned, (but rather red-skinned) and their features are far from black (unlike the features of the Africans they put on the Nubian prisoners of war and the like).

I don't know whether you ever visited Egypt, but there's are still people walking around there that could pass as the peopel that lived there int he times of the pharaohs. These people are neither black, nor negroid, but tanned and somewhat semitic.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~jayhawk/albums/london/slides/DSCN4749.JPG

Be honest. Why would these people depict themselves as red if they were black?

[martouf]

There was an interesting program on last year about that. DNA markers from the ancestors of that Khalihari tribe through the male line have been found in every race on earth.The tribe having the "oldest" versions of the genes hence being the root from which all the others have sprung.

They traced the route through east Africa, through Egypt, the middle east, into India, SE Asia, and Australia where the aborigines were cut off when the land bridge between it and SE Asia was submerged. Then up through central asia around Uzbekistan, etc. and into Europe from there and NE Siberia. From Siberia across the land bridge into North America, down through Central American and finally South America.

I think it may have been a Nova or Scientific American broadcast on the PBS network. It could have also been a National Geographic program on the same network. I don't recall.
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they had a similar program on discovrey channel last year. however thetruth, its not a big deal that the egyptians are not being depicted as being black. COTN along with many other games is an artistic representation and it is up to the developers of the game to make the decisions. hell, they could make them blue if they wanted to.

-martouf

[thetruth]

"But let's not make a big deal about this, I initially didn't want to respond and I won't comment on this any further, I'll leave this post be though."


It is a big deal i am not going to argue about thier pigment, cause there are all types of black people today, its the fact that people want to show that egyptians were not black which is evident through this game. It may not be a big deal to you but it is to people who feel like their culture has been lost through years of racism.


I find it funny that the previous poster wanted to the a picture where all the color was eroided and one out of a million other ones you could have chosen, why don't you read this
http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/



http://dickinsg.intrasun.tcnj.edu/diaspora/black.gif
http://dickinsg.intrasun.tcnj.edu/diaspora/egypt3.jpg

[Lannes]

It may not be a big deal to you but it is to people who feel like their culture has been lost through years of racism.

I have no problem with assuming the Egyptians were what today we'd call "black", but the culture part eludes me. Who are these people you speak of?

Lannes

[Keith]

I find it funny that the previous poster wanted to the a picture where all the color was eroided and one out of a million other ones you could have chosen, why don't you read this
http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/ (http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/)
Lots of info there, while it looks impressive he doesn't document his work. The only documentation he gave is that from the Egyptian Hieroglyph Dictionary. There is no bibliography. He references a couple of Egyptologists, the Bible, the Romans, , the Greeks, etc. but fails to cite one or more of the following: the work, chapter, book, page or paragraph that supports the stated opinion.

Edit: He does make passing references to the Bible and some Greek works, but mostly it's undocumented.

The thing that puts me off on all his "proof" is the following line that smacks of reverse racism:

"All those who say that the Ancient Egyptians were not Black folks:


White Egyptologists"


The website seems to be more interested in promoting a specific agenda.
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[Ineti]

Here's an interesting page on the subject:

http://www.catchpenny.org/race.html

[thetruth]

Thank you for the link but it is obvious that the game was made without the idea of using black Egyptians which bothers me and many people of African descent

I wonder if the developer is getting the messgae

[thetruth]

Lots of info there, while it looks impressive he doesn't document his work. The only documentation he gave is that from the Egyptian Hieroglyph Dictionary. There is no bibliography. He references a couple of Egyptologists, the Bible, the Romans, , the Greeks, etc. but fails to cite one or more of the following: the work, chapter, book, page or paragraph that supports the stated opinion.

Edit: He does make passing references to the Bible and some Greek works, but mostly it's undocumented.

The thing that puts me off on all his "proof" is the following line that smacks of reverse racism:

"All those who say that the Ancient Egyptians were not Black folks:


White Egyptologists"


The website seems to be more interested in promoting a specific agenda.
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Reverse Racism? please, so that is what is said when blacks try to reclaim their culture that has been lost for so long. I don't even know why you would even question them being black, give credit when credit is due.

[Cassiopeia]

Reverse Racism? please, so that is what is said when blacks try to reclaim their culture that has been lost for so long. I don't even know why you would even question them being black, give credit when credit is due.

I don't see where anyone has denied the Egyptians credit for their achievements. And I don't see where anyone has denied that they were people of color. Insisting that they were black and choosing only the data that supports that thesis, is no better than the white supremacist site I came across, where the author picked amongst paintings and artifacts to prove his claims that the Egyptians were Caucasian, and that the Semites and Nubians were inferior peoples only good for laborers and slaves.

Personally, I don't care what color the Egyptians were, they managed to achieve great things. And I don't care what color the devs make the CG characters. They can be black, brown, pink, green or purple with yellow polkadots as long as the game's fun to play. And that's all this is.... IT'S A GAME.

Besides, everyone knows the Eqyptians were aliens from another planet.

[thetruth]

I don't see where anyone has denied the Egyptians credit for their achievements. And I don't see where anyone has denied that they were people of color. Insisting that they were black and choosing only the data that supports that thesis, is no better than the white supremacist site I came across, where the author picked amongst paintings and artifacts to prove his claims that the Egyptians were Caucasian, and that the Semites and Nubians were inferior peoples only good for laborers and slaves.

Personally, I don't care what color the Egyptians were, they managed to achieve great things. And I don't care what color the devs make the CG characters. They can be black, brown, pink, green or purple with yellow polkadots as long as the game's fun to play. And that's all this is.... IT'S A GAME.

Besides, everyone knows the Eqyptians were aliens from another planet.


Of course you don't care what color they are, but black people who have seem their ancestor's cultures defaced like this do. If things were reversed and a game about greek culture was made and they were Asian I bet you would hear an outcry.
According to your logic that blacks that are trying to reclaim thier culture because of years of slavery and racism is same as white supremacist denying people's culture. Not only is that absurd but it is ignorant thinking and the reason why there are problems around the world because people don't try to understand where others are coming from. And it is more than a game it is Western outlook on society and something that perpetuates a racist lie! And if it wasn't a big deal, why didn't they make them Black African looking?

[Ineti]

Thank you for the link but it is obvious that the game was made without the idea of using black Egyptians which bothers me and many people of African descent

Perhaps it might be best to judge the game as a whole once it's released rather than assume the handful of screenshots we've seen reflects the entire game?

[Keith]

Reverse Racism? please, so that is what is said when blacks try to reclaim their culture that has been lost for so long. I don't even know why you would even question them being black, give credit when credit is due.
No, it's the sort of thing that is said when the owner of the site lumps all "white egyptologists" together.

Because there is much we don't know about Egypt, I'm not going to change my opinion based on one person's undocumented assertions.
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[Keith]

There was an interesting program on last year about that. DNA markers from the ancestors of that Khalihari tribe through the male line have been found in every race on earth.The tribe having the "oldest" versions of the genes hence being the root from which all the others have sprung.

They traced the route through east Africa, through Egypt, the middle east, into India, SE Asia, and Australia where the aborigines were cut off when the land bridge between it and SE Asia was submerged. Then up through central asia around Uzbekistan, etc. and into Europe from there and NE Siberia. From Siberia across the land bridge into North America, down through Central American and finally South America.

I think it may have been a Nova or Scientific American broadcast on the PBS network. It could have also been a National Geographic program on the same network. I don't recall.

Now this is just spooky....I was tuning through the channels tonight and this very program was being aired on the local city college run PBS station tonight. The program name is "Journey of Man".
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[Atlantean Relic]

Egyptians came in many shapes and colors. Now it may be stylized but if you look at the bust of Quenn Nefertiti(sp) She appaers pale, Whereas her husband's, Ankhenaten, bust has many negroid features. But in general most of their art I've seen in book have them a ruddy brown color not unlike the locals today. EGypt in its long history had Egyptians,Hyskos,Nubians Greeks,Romans,Semitics. Probably the original melting pot nation if you ask me.

[Rachelc258]

<<



Reverse Racism? please, so that is what is said when blacks try to reclaim their culture that has been lost for so long. I don't even know why you would even question them being black, give credit when credit is due.
>>


Look, not everything is about race, ok? Race doesn't even exist.

But one thing that really does irritate me is people foisting modern conceptions on ancient civilizations in order to further an agenda. They egyptians... were the egyptians. And you know what? They probably came in all sorts of shapes, colors, and sizes. I mean, sure, it was the ancient world but in the time of the large civilizations, people did get around.

Excuse me for my cyncism, but I've been down this road before with other people. Are you going to start claiming that Cleopatra was black next? Or that the greeks stole everything from the egyptians?

[Lannes]

If things were reversed and a game about greek culture was made and they were Asian I bet you would hear an outcry.

Certainly if something were said like "The caucasian race could never have built such an advanced society". That would be offensive I suppose. However, the european claim on Greek and Roman cultural legacy does not rest on a race argument. Elements of these cultures are part of European culture because they were spread by conquest and conversion, not by genes. I don't know if any modern culture could make such a claim on a cultural legacy of Ancient Egypt.


And if it wasn't a big deal, why didn't they make them Black African looking?

Hehe, good point actually. Perhaps the developers are playing safe by staying close to the stereotype?

Lannes

[Jayhawk]

It is a big deal i am not going to argue about thier pigment, cause there are all types of black people today
Have you noticed there are many colours of so called white people too, from nearly lily-white to downright swarthy? Especially when you add exposure to sunlight to that equation?

I find it funny that the previous poster wanted to the a picture where all the color was eroided and one out of a million other ones you could have chosen, why don't you read this
I see you failed to answer my question of whether you actually visited Egypt. I did, and most (not all) depicitons of Egyptyians show them to be red skinned, rather than black skinned. Yes, there has been a period of Nubian rule in Egypt, which adequately explains the odd depictions of black Egyptians.
As for eroding colours, let me ask you a very simple question: if the black paint erodes to red...why do most depictions have red skins and black hair?

It may not be a big deal to you but it is to people who feel like their culture has been lost through years of racism.
Hmm, your culture?
Are you Egyptian?
If not, it's not your culture. Just like Rome isn't my culture.

Reverse Racism? please, so that is what is said when blacks try to reclaim their culture that has been lost for so long.
There you go again. What makes you believe that such a claim can be made at all? In most cases it would be like Laps claiming Roman culture. As most of the blacks had nothing to do with Egyptian culture, how can you claim it as their heritage?

Of course you don't care what color they are, but black people who have seem their ancestor's cultures defaced like this do.
Their ancestors? I'm pretty sure most Africans were split off of whatever branch the Egyptians came from well before they acheived the Golry that was Egypt.

Thank you for the link but it is obvious that the game was made without the idea of using black Egyptians which bothers me and many people of African descent
The game is using tan Egyptians, which, I repeat again, is what they apparently felt they, the ancient egyptians, looked like.

I don't even know why you would even question them being black, give credit when credit is due.
Because it's obvious they didn't see themselves as black.

Seems there's quite a lot of data supporting this by the way. Have a look at this little piece (PDF (http://www.solargeneral.com/library/RaceOfAncientEgypt.pdf))

Hehe, good point actually.
Not really. After all, you're not going to make all crusaders black in a game about the crusades, just because a few of them were, now are you?

[Azeem]

Nonetheless, the Egyptians were (and still are) a people of color. In other words, they weren't so-called "Nordics."

Africa is a very large and very diverse continent. Because of geographic location, the north, Mediterranean part of Africa is different from central and southern Africa. Take a look at the people of Morrocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt. They are not all "black," but have a more Mediterranean appearance because of Semitic and Berber ancestry. Even genetics have shown that they are more related to Mediterranean Asians (present-day Turkey, Lebanon, Israel).

The old Hollywood depictions of "white" Egyptians is a dead or dying illusion, as most people today recognize that the Egyptians were not what Hollywood wanted them to look like.

[Elvenwarrior2001]

Exactly what you said Rumi (Azeem). People don't think of Egyptians as whites these days. I think of them with a sort of Arabic look to them. Which is true...90% of the country is Arabic.*

Elven

*World Book Encyclopedia. Reference: Egypt.

Elven

[thetruth]

WOW JaHawk you obviously have never studied African culture at all, how do you know I am not part Egyptian in anyway?

Have I been to Egypt? Have you? What does the people there now have anything to do with what was there 3000 years ago? 400 years ago was the United States made of the same ethic backgrounds that it is now. Do you know anything about the Sudan and the Arab and African ratio and how it is related to what Egypt is today?


You come on this board with these lame excuses and have the audacity to talk about what the descendants of Africans did when it is obvious that you have never studied the subject

That is what is wrong with a lot of people today; you will not accept that things that were done in the past out of racial motivations are wrong. I suggest talking to a professor that is well versed in African culture and they will tell you the truth.

It is amazing that some people don’' want to listen but rather fight to conserve racial lies

[EmperorJay]

thetruth, I'm quoting you here:

Of course you don't care what color they are, but black people who have seem their ancestor's cultures defaced like this do.
YOU were the one who started about modern people and their ancestors!

He was also ASKING if you were (partially) Egyptian, he was not STATING anything.

Quoting you again:

That is what is wrong with a lot of people today; you will not accept that things that were done in the past out of racial motivations are wrong.
Are you saying that modern actions made out of racial motivations are okay? Surely they're not! So why do you think anyone would approve racist actions in the past?

I want to ask you one more question though. I want you to answer this one question that Jayhawk has asked earlier. As for eroding colours, let me ask you a very simple question: if the black paint erodes to red...why do most depictions have red skins and black hair?

You don't have an answer to that one do you? Instead you start accusing people. You almost call some of us racists! Why in the world are you doing that?

Looking back on history, 90% of the actions taken would not have been approved of today. However, it has been done and cannot be undone, you'll have to accept it even if you don't agree with it. However, you must try to understand it. Racism is not the problem, true racism, Nazi racism will never leave the world we live in because there will always be crazy people, understanding each other, that is the problem.

You must try to understand that 99,9% of all people think of Egypt as the land of the pyramids, they know nothing more. If you would ask 1000 persons what skin color the Egyptians had, I think you would get dozens of diffirent answers. Most people will say that they were Mediterrenean though. If the developers want the game to feel familiar, they have to create a world that feels familiar; most people think that Egyptians looked Mediterrenean so the developers portray the Egyptians as Mediterrenean.

Please try to understand that! I understand that you're upset, I don't know you, your just a name on a message board, you may be black, white, Chinese, male, female, young or old. Does it matter? Not really. What does matter is what you are saying. If you feel that the game should be realistic, instead of familiar, just ASK if they could portray the Egyptians as black!

If you do so, come with REAL studies done by REAL Egyptologysts (it's getting late, forgive my spelling). You say we should listen to real proffesors, unfortunately, I don't have any of those living in my neighbourhood. Provide me with some links that show REAL professors with studies that have been approved by other professors, not lousy sites.

Don't start name calling, don't call other people racists, if you want to discuss something, provide arguments. And the only good arguments are the arguments that have been supported by MULTIPLE sources.

I've always known the CB community as one that did not need moderation, since it moderated itself. Let's keep it that way :)

[Chris Beatrice]

To whom it may concern,
While it is regrettable that in past centuries (and even to this day, to some extent) concerted attempts have been made to deny the African origins of the ancient Egyptians, trying to rectify this by seeking to precisely define the physical characteristics of these people, then matching these characteristics up with those of specific modern individuals is, in my opinion, equally ill-conceived (though almost certainly less sinister in intent).

As to where the ancient Egyptians came from, scholars are mostly in agreement that they were indigenous to the continent of Africa (at least during the period covered by CotN), and that is precisely how their origins are represented in the game.

There is as much debate about the (varied and non-homogenous) physical characteristics of the ancient Egyptians as there is about their costume, architecture, eating habits, and everything else about them. As CotN is a game, not a documentary, yes, we must always go with the most common and “popular” understanding and interpretations of these elements. We are certainly not trying to deny or reinforce anyone’s perceived cultural legacy based on physical appearances. In CotN the Egyptians and the things that surround them appear as they do in most books, television shows and movies our users will be acquainted with. Sorry to disappoint, but that, and only that, is the reason “why” everything in the game looks as it does.

In closing I would like to thank the regular visitors to this forum for remaining cordial and respectful throughout this thread, despite what are certainly inflammatory and unsupported accusations made about me and my team.

-Chris

[thetruth]

thetruth, I'm quoting you here:


YOU were the one who started about modern people and their ancestors!

He was also ASKING if you were (partially) Egyptian, he was not STATING anything.

Quoting you again:


Are you saying that modern actions made out of racial motivations are okay? Surely they're not! So why do you think anyone would approve racist actions in the past?

I want to ask you one more question though. I want you to answer this one question that Jayhawk has asked earlier. As for eroding colours, let me ask you a very simple question: if the black paint erodes to red...why do most depictions have red skins and black hair?

You don't have an answer to that one do you? Instead you start accusing people. You almost call some of us racists! Why in the world are you doing that?

Looking back on history, 90% of the actions taken would not have been approved of today. However, it has been done and cannot be undone, you'll have to accept it even if you don't agree with it. However, you must try to understand it. Racism is not the problem, true racism, Nazi racism will never leave the world we live in because there will always be crazy people, understanding each other, that is the problem.

You must try to understand that 99,9% of all people think of Egypt as the land of the pyramids, they know nothing more. If you would ask 1000 persons what skin color the Egyptians had, I think you would get dozens of diffirent answers. Most people will say that they were Mediterrenean though. If the developers want the game to feel familiar, they have to create a world that feels familiar; most people think that Egyptians looked Mediterrenean so the developers portray the Egyptians as Mediterrenean.

Please try to understand that! I understand that you're upset, I don't know you, your just a name on a message board, you may be black, white, Chinese, male, female, young or old. Does it matter? Not really. What does matter is what you are saying. If you feel that the game should be realistic, instead of familiar, just ASK if they could portray the Egyptians as black!

If you do so, come with REAL studies done by REAL Egyptologysts (it's getting late, forgive my spelling). You say we should listen to real proffesors, unfortunately, I don't have any of those living in my neighbourhood. Provide me with some links that show REAL professors with studies that have been approved by other professors, not lousy sites.

Don't start name calling, don't call other people racists, if you want to discuss something, provide arguments. And the only good arguments are the arguments that have been supported by MULTIPLE sources.

I've always known the CB community as one that did not need moderation, since it moderated itself. Let's keep it that way :)


Ok it you read my post from the beginning I was just addressing a real issue and did it in a respectful way but like in anything in life, when you try to go against the norm people are going to attack you. I also do not understand where you get that Egyptians painted themselves red most of the time when that is not true it is either brown or black, and I post a couple of pictures just to show you quickly I know not everyone is living in NYC but if you go to the Metropolitan Museum of Art you are not going to see a lot of hieroglyphics of red people. If you want more links then I will try to show you. The site that I sent had some good info but I understand why you would not trust it. But to understand Egypt you have to understand it and the surrounding neighbors at the time which a lot of people over look and a good site for that is this.
http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/ancientafrica.html

[thetruth]

To whom it may concern,
While it is regrettable that in past centuries (and even to this day, to some extent) concerted attempts have been made to deny the African origins of the ancient Egyptians, trying to rectify this by seeking to precisely define the physical characteristics of these people, then matching these characteristics up with those of specific modern individuals is, in my opinion, equally ill-conceived (though almost certainly less sinister in intent).

As to where the ancient Egyptians came from, scholars are mostly in agreement that they were indigenous to the continent of Africa (at least during the period covered by CotN), and that is precisely how their origins are represented in the game.

There is as much debate about the (varied and non-homogenous) physical characteristics of the ancient Egyptians as there is about their costume, architecture, eating habits, and everything else about them. As CotN is a game, not a documentary, yes, we must always go with the most common and “popular” understanding and interpretations of these elements. We are certainly not trying to deny or reinforce anyone’s perceived cultural legacy based on physical appearances. In CotN the Egyptians and the things that surround them appear as they do in most books, television shows and movies our users will be acquainted with. Sorry to disappoint, but that, and only that, is the reason “why” everything in the game looks as it does.

In closing I would like to thank the regular visitors to this forum for remaining cordial and respectful throughout this thread, despite what are certainly inflammatory and unsupported accusations made about me and my team.

-Chris


I respect that you responded to this thread which I think it is extremely important topic. Also I understand and respect your response but I hope that you were taking a shot at me when saying. “In closing I would like to thank the regular visitors to this forum for remaining cordial and respectful throughout this thread, despite what are certainly inflammatory and unsupported accusations made about me and my team.”
I am not here to make any accusations about anyone on the team because I do not know anyone there, but I am making a statement based on what the company has put out there. I am only judging from the work that your company has done. I understand that you based what you did on what is popular in media but they usually are biased and promote stereotypes of almost all groups. What I had hope when making a game like this that research would have been done because I feel that this is not the first time you are hearing this. I know not everyone would understand where I am coming from but being from another country and knowing what your people have been through with colonialism, things may effect me in a way that others may not understand. There were times when European settlers that came to Africa and saw art and said that they could not be created by the people there because they are barbarians and uncivilized, many may not believe it but there was a time where a lot of European archeologist thought that way. However it angers me and others that feel that depictions like this are a result on negative thinking in the past.

[doubledge]

I was a bit disspointed by Chris's reply. I don't think it's enough to say that you have portrayed Egyptians in this way because the rest of the white racist media continues to do so. You should probably put some more thought into the depiction of your characters next time.

[Atlantean Relic]

Okay so Titled mill goes with the popular view. That having been said is it wrong are all ancient egyptians "black"? Could you stick them in Harlem in modern clothes and not look twice?

[thetruth]

Okay so Titled mill goes with the popular view. That having been said is it wrong are all ancient egyptians "black"? Could you stick them in Harlem in modern clothes and not look twice?

this is the type of ignorance that destorys the creditability of the thread, how about checking any of the sources that I put out or thinking before posting.

[supergamer]

Okay so Titled mill goes with the popular view. That having been said is it wrong are all ancient egyptians "black"? Could you stick them in Harlem in modern clothes and not look twice?

Hey,

I think the site that thetruth put up is really interesting. It might answer some of your questions concerning the race of the Ancient Egyptians and research that has taken place, and continues to take place now.
In regards to some of the prior responses, which touched on the significance of the color of these egyptians in this game, it is important to think of our history. Black peoples all across the world have been oppressed by white racism on many levels. One might think that the depiction of the egyptians as non-black in a video game is harmless, and that it is simply going along with popular views of them, but these 'little' things continue to oppress the psyches of a race even today.

[Rachelc258]

You come on this board with these lame excuses and have the audacity to talk [...] when it is obvious that you have never studied the subject

You know, I was just thinking the exact same thing about you.

[Rachelc258]

Is it just me, or does it seem like we have a few sockpuppets on this thread?

[Pecunia]

Is it just me, or does it seem like we have a few sockpuppets on this thread?
Just what I was thinking...

[Atlantean Relic]

Okay let me put it this way. I want names. I want the name of the scientist and name of his study. I want the names of studies that back up his claims by fellows in his field. I also want to see the counter evidence by his associates that disagree. I'd like that name of the Universities all of the above belong to. I'd like an explanation of the statues, paintings, mummies that are not Greek,Roman,etc. in origin and yet still don't have "black" feature. Then, I can make up my own mind.

But in the end the point is probably mute. Ancient Egyptians probably didn't distinguish race like we do.They probably didn't have race blinders like we do.

[Just_married]

Becaus eactaully there not all of them where black because of the enviroment.Go to Egypt now and see how many black people are there.

[thetruth]

Becaus eactaully there not all of them where black because of the enviroment.Go to Egypt now and see how many black people are there.
Obviously you haven't been because there are black people, again that is a bad arguement if you don't know the history. Look at Florida now, i bet 400 years ago you wouldn't see the same people

[thetruth]

Okay let me put it this way. I want names. I want the name of the scientist and name of his study. I want the names of studies that back up his claims by fellows in his field. I also want to see the counter evidence by his associates that disagree. I'd like that name of the Universities all of the above belong to. I'd like an explanation of the statues, paintings, mummies that are not Greek,Roman,etc. in origin and yet still don't have "black" feature. Then, I can make up my own mind.

But in the end the point is probably mute. Ancient Egyptians probably didn't distinguish race like we do.They probably didn't have race blinders like we do.

I dont' understand your problem there are two ways to look at this:
1) Common sense: Egypt is in this hot climate called Africa, where most Africans share a common culture ( ie. Nubia, Ethopia) and skin tone. Because of racism in the early days a lot of scientist destoryed statues and tried to claim other wise of black african achievements
2) You can do some research your self and I gave you a site to start: http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/ancientafrica.html


But I really don't know what to say to you people who do not want to believe that Egyptians were black Africans, i guess they magically weren’t' made black by god while every other indigenous people on the 2nd largest continent was? :confused:

[supergamer]

Becaus eactaully there not all of them where black because of the enviroment.Go to Egypt now and see how many black people are there.
?
I don't know exactly what you said but, you have to consider the impact of colonialism. To base a cogent argument on Egypt's current inhabitants would be ludicrous.

[Afterburner]

while every other indigenous people on the 2nd largest continent was? :confused:

What part of "not every indigenous cultural group in Africa was black" are you having trouble understanding?

[Keith]

What part of "not every indigenous cultural group in Africa was black" are you having trouble understanding?Why bother prolonging this, Afterburner? Your wasting your time. You won't change his mind and he's not getting anywhere either. The origional question has already been officially answered. The thread has become more of a "troll" than anything else now.
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[Just_married]

I was just in Egypt 1 year ago.And I found out 1/1th of them are black.They are really half black and half Muslim.I went to Cairo and another place but I don't remember the name.

[thetruth]

What part of "not every indigenous cultural group in Africa was black" are you having trouble understanding?


I like how u fail to ignore everything else i posted

[thetruth]

Why bother prolonging this, Afterburner? Your wasting your time. You won't change his mind and he's not getting anywhere either. The origional question has already been officially answered. The thread has become more of a "troll" than anything else now.
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Not getting any where??? Troll?? I feel sorry for you my friend, but it is obvious you are not of African descent and are oblivious to what racism is and was. Since you ignored all the facts I have nothing to say with you, it is obvious that you and others can not have an intellectual discussion with me or any other poster that brought up good point, but would rather support racist thinking of the past century.

Egyptians were black Africans

[Just_married]

Guess what my cousin is Egyptian ok sheesh.I'm white but she's Egyptian.

[Rachelc258]

[QUOTE=thetruth] You can do some research your self and I gave you a site to start: http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/ancientafrica.html

QUOTE]
Homestead? Homestead.com? The free hosting website? That is what you call a reputable source?

[thetruth]

[QUOTE=thetruth] You can do some research your self and I gave you a site to start: http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/ancientafrica.html

QUOTE]
Homestead? Homestead.com? The free hosting website? That is what you call a reputable source?


You have not even commented on the content!!! Are you sooo biased that you will look for anything to discourage the truth that you won't even click on the link?

Some of you people are so funny you try to hard to support bigots and racist thinking, what is so hard to admit that these people were black Africans?

[Bach]

I really did not want to get into this but this post seems to have gotten out contol. To say that eygpt is all Black African because it is on the African contienent is wrong it would be like saying Turkey is on the european continent so therefore all the people all should be Pale white with blond Hair.
Egypt was one of the first muticultral nations on earth and Nubia was an Egpytian province so of coruse there are Black Egyptians but they did not make up the whole Population there where semetic peoples who are the Ancestors of the mordern day Arabs, then came the Greeks and Romans at the end of the Egyptian empire.

[thetruth]

I really did not want to get into this but this post seems to have gotten out contol. To say that eygpt is all Black African because it is on the African contienent is wrong it would be like saying Turkey is on the european continent so therefore all the people all should be Pale white with blond Hair.
Egypt was one of the first muticultral nations on earth and Nubia was an Egpytian province so of coruse there are Black Egyptians but they did not make up the whole Population there where semetic peoples who are the Ancestors of the mordern day Arabs, then came the Greeks and Romans at the end of the Egyptian empire.

Did you look at the link? judging from you response I don't believe you have, that was only part of the arguement. And Yes you can say they were black Africans because of the surrounding countries because they shared the same culture and styles of other black Africans, but your not going to realize this unless you educate yourself first.

[Just_married]

South Egypt is black north egypt is a mix.You have never been there befor have you?

[Azeem]

Egypt is in this hot climate called Africa, where most Africans share a common culture

This is called "painting everyone with the same brush." The exact same thing the colonialists did. Africa does NOT have a "common culture." It is one of the most diverse (or probably IS the most diverse) continent in the world. The Berber tribes, the "Moorish", the Egyptians, the Nubians, the Ethiopians are all unique because of their geographical location and because they each developed differently. Egyptians do not share a "common culture" with the Zulu nor do the Nubians share a "common culture" with Benin. The Ife didn't build pyramids and the Bantu do not speak the Berber language.

Take a look at the many different cultures of Africa. They're not the same nor do they share a "common culture."

What should be considered most offensive to Africans is the myth that they're "all the same" and denying their ethnic diversity.

[thetruth]

Egypt is in this hot climate called Africa, where most Africans share a common culture

This is called "painting everyone with the same brush." The exact same thing the colonialists did. Africa does NOT have a "common culture." It is one of the most diverse (or probably IS the most diverse) continent in the world. The Berber tribes, the "Moorish", the Egyptians, the Nubians, the Ethiopians are all unique because of their geographical location and because they each developed differently. Egyptians do not share a "common culture" with the Zulu nor do the Nubians share a "common culture" with Benin. The Ife didn't build pyramids and the Bantu do not speak the Berber language.

Take a look at the many different cultures of Africa. They're not the same nor do they share a "common culture."

What should be considered most offensive to Africans is the myth that they're "all the same" and denying their ethnic diversity.


Have you done any African Studies? A lot of the countries share similar characteristics within each cultures, did everyone built pyramids or Mosques like in Mali? no but there are similarities which is explained in the link that I am not sure you even looked at. That is besides the point that Egyptians were black Africans not some made up race that some believe to take credit away from black Africans

[Bach]

Judging by your posts it is obvious you do not want to here the truth.
:cool: by the way I have been studying about Egypt since I was 5

[Lannes]

Not getting any where??? Troll?? I feel sorry for you my friend, but it is obvious you are not of African descent and are oblivious to what racism is and was. Since you ignored all the facts I have nothing to say with you, it is obvious that you and others can not have an intellectual discussion with me or any other poster that brought up good point, but would rather support racist thinking of the past century. Egyptians were black Africans

Without pointlessly pointing fingers (which would be pointless in itself), I have to agree with Keith (for once lol) that this is becoming an argument for argument's sake. I think you've raised an intersting point, but as far as presenting evidence it is one best left for scientists to deal with in an appropriate, hopefully non-political, environment.

Lannes

[thetruth]

Judging by your posts it is obvious you do not want to here the truth.
:cool: by the way I have been studying about Egypt since I was 5


what truth is that, Egyptians weren't black africans?? if that is the case your living a world painted by racist europeans. You probably know nothing about Africa cultures so why should I waste my time with you.

[Keith]

Not getting any where??? Troll?? I feel sorry for you my friend, but it is obvious you are not of African descent and are oblivious to what racism is and was. Since you ignored all the facts I have nothing to say with you, it is obvious that you and others can not have an intellectual discussion with me or any other poster that brought up good point, but would rather support racist thinking of the past century.

Egyptians were black Africans
Ok, so now I'm ignorant and a racist? I have yet to insult you and yet you have done so, twice, to me.

You've got the zealous fervor of a first year African Studies student. Unfortunately you are alienating the people you wish to convince.

Maybe if more people would ignore your "facts" you'd have nothing to say to them either and then this thread can slip quietly into oblivion.
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[Rachelc258]

<< bigots and racist thinking, what is so hard to admit that these people were black Africans?>>

Whose the racist? You, who insists that everyone in egypt was "black", or me, who is quite comfortable acknowledging that egypt was probably a hodge-podge of people?

Just because someone points out the extraordinary weakness of your arguments does not make them a racist.

How do you know that I am not an african-american myself?

[Rachelc258]

Egypt is in this hot climate called Africa, where most Africans share a common culture


Take a look at the many different cultures of Africa. They're not the same nor do they share a "common culture."

What should be considered most offensive to Africans is the myth that they're "all the same" and denying their ethnic diversity.

very well said and worth repeating....

[EmperorJay]

And in the end, it doesn't even matter what skin colour anyone has anyway. It's about what someone does, not how someone looks. It's not about how a civilization looked like, it's about what a civilization has done.

[doubledge]

<< bigots and racist thinking, what is so hard to admit that these people were black Africans?>>

Whose the racist? You, who insists that everyone in egypt was "black", or me, who is quite comfortable acknowledging that egypt was probably a hodge-podge of people?

Just because someone points out the extraordinary weakness of your arguments does not make them a racist.

How do you know that I am not an african-american myself?

In reference to the game, I don't see any black people walking around, so it seems that the "hodge-podge" argument wouldn't even support this acknowledgement of yours. Unless "hodge-podge" is your rude and ignorant way of discribing biracial people.

Doesn't racism have to do with wrongfully judging another race at the expense of that race. With that said I don't see how this argument would pose a threat to any other racial group. Blacks are simply trying to search for truth, or bring to light that which has been shadowed for so long. To belittle this by saying that Blacks are racist doesn't seem to make sense to me.


I think this can be a very intellectual discussion, but if everyone is going to be aroused and quick to blame, then it is pointless. This will only expose the worst of ourselves rather than our listening and learning from each other.

[Aditya]

I miss Itchy.

[thetruth]

Ok, so now I'm ignorant and a racist? I have yet to insult you and yet you have done so, twice, to me.

You've got the zealous fervor of a first year African Studies student. Unfortunately you are alienating the people you wish to convince.

Maybe if more people would ignore your "facts" you'd have nothing to say to them either and then this thread can slip quietly into oblivion.
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Where did I call you a racist?? I explained about early European archeologist and colonialism, which is obvious you don't know about or choose to ignore because you have no argument, I have supported everything and you have done nothing to argue based on anything I showed



Funny how you can twist words and try to play victim. I am trying to educate but you choose ignorance………….sad

[GillB]

Hasn't this gone on long enough?

It seems to me that TheTruth has come to these forums merely to make a political point - in one post he said he didn't know the game was a Citybuilder.

Each side is convinced of its rightness, each has its own 'experts', each has its own 'proof'. It's just like a creation/evolution argument. Never the twain shall meet. Yes, black history has been changed in the colonial past. But the specific argument here is whether ancient Egyptians were black or not and neither side can prove its rightness beyond all doubt.

We're talking about a game here, not the cultural heritage of a particular people. Chris Beatrice has stated Tilted Mill's position on it, so can we please go back to talking about the game.

[Keith]

Where did I call you a racist?? I explained about early European archeologist and colonialism, which is obvious you don't know about or choose to ignore because you have no argument, I have supported everything and you have done nothing to argue based on anything I showed



Funny how you can twist words and try to play victim. I am trying to educate but you choose ignorance………….sad
Ok, first point.
it is obvious that you and others can not have an intellectual discussion with me or any other poster that brought up good point...
This implies that I and others are ignorant. First point proven.

Second point.
...., but would rather support racist thinking of the past century
This implies, however remotely, that you consider me a supporter of "racist thinking," ergo, you consider me a racist. Second point proven.

There's no discussion worth having with you and that is why I don't respond to your "proofs" and points.

GillB, in the post above, has said what I and probably others have been thinking and that is that you just came here to score political points for your little ego trip agenda.

You are so transparent at what you are about and a waste of my time. So prattle on, I won't be bothering with this thread or you again.
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[Reed]

Ok, I think it's time to lock this one down. Chris has given the definitive answer to the original question and the rest of this isn't getting anywhere.