How much does early feedback affect game development?

[sitearm]

@ Tilted Mill:

How much does early feedback affect game development?

The Children of the Nile forums opened May 2004 and discussion, speculation and suggestions were rampant for 6 months until the game was released November 2004.

Opening the Caesar IV forums a year early seems extreme but it also seems to be part of the advance prep.

Quietus Quieta The tranquil, peaceful one

[Dog of the Sun]

I think this is a good question sitearm, i'd like to know too, I read bout cotn in a mag 3 months early and it looked good, soo anyways. :D

Ps, sitearm9, is it nice to be a scribe, 1 out of 2 now :) .!!

[Thucydides]

If I were a game developer I would find suggestions by the public a useful way to develop new ideas and inputs for a game. And presumably the earlier these idea are drawn upon, the easier it is to incorporate them into the product.

[Keith]

By the time the game is publicly announced and a board opened up for it, the general game program outline is probably fairly well established around what they want to include and the way things are going to happen with a few exceptions here and there.

The pre-release game board is a way of generating interest and excitement about the game and that is more than likely their sole main purpose. It lets the fans feel involved.

The devs may spot a new idea that looks interesting and "do-able" without the need to reprogram everything they have so far. They may just pluck that idea and put it in the game in one form or another if they haven't had the same idea already. TM probably doesn't have the time or the resources to include every good idea that they come across however.

[arcan]

I reckon they don't have time or means to includeevery good ideas described on the forum, but I think there is much less done in programming than "general game program outline" or at least, only the basics, and not much of the gameplay. So I'd say quite a lot of ideas may be able to go into the game.

[Keith]

...So I'd say quite a lot of ideas may be able to go into the game.

But then, you aren't the one doing the work. ;)

I would not count on seeing a majority of the ideas being discussed in the game, unless TM had the idea first and it was already part of the plan. For the most part, many developers don't use ideas from outside sources due to legal concerns. There's always a chance for one or two outstanding ideas that TM may like and put their own spin on given there is enough time to implement them.

[arcan]

I guess most of the ideas we'll may see getting into the game are ballance-issues or design/game functions. Which are not that difficult to add anyway... but can make a game gruesome if missing. (Beta test 's role)

[angelisis]

well if you remeber people there was one thing that we all insisted upon and got in the completed version of CotN, during the beta.....but that was during the beta so maybe that is when idea's maybe used and implemented for the new game.
it is not that they do not listen but more "you will know what we mean when you play it......then we may discuss adding, taking away from it"
the C4 forum is alot like the early CotN forum and we either hit the nail on the head with stuff we discussed or it just was not or would not be considered. we would probebly be surprised how far it has come and how close the beta will be.....cotn beta was orriginaly going to be a cppl of weeks and ended up going longer then that. I still have the cd and all the patches.
:D

[Thucydides]

I recall on one beta (not CotN) the developer radically altered the balance of the economic model on the advice of the testers (it was far too easy to make money, making the gameplay sandbox-like and the AI very easy to defeat). But I agree that unless the idea is simple and agreeable it is unlikely to be incorporated by the developer, particularly as the version number of the product creaps upwards.

[sitearm]

Well! * speaks brightly *

And what do our fine developers have to say? Hmmm...?

* looks, listens; sees, hears nothing; taps foot; h*ll, taps watch... *

Florus Flora Bright, flowery

[Thucydides]

thats putting them on the spot Sitearm. It is tempting to take bets on whether you will entice a substantive reply from them though! ;)

[wodinoneeye]

By the time the game is publicly announced and a board opened up for it, the general game program outline is probably fairly well established around what they want to include and the way things are going to happen with a few exceptions here and there.

The pre-release game board is a way of generating interest and excitement about the game and that is more than likely their sole main purpose. It lets the fans feel involved.

The devs may spot a new idea that looks interesting and "do-able" without the need to reprogram everything they have so far. They may just pluck that idea and put it in the game in one form or another if they haven't had the same idea already. TM probably doesn't have the time or the resources to include every good idea that they come across however.




If they dont already have their design done in detail by now, they are in serious trouble. Doesnt the C4 website say something about them already having been working on it ( the engine) for a year or two already ????

Even a year out they better have major parts of the C4 game mechanism (not just the game engine) already partially working. Items like new decorative objects (like the columns Ive mentioned before) are not as hard to add as long as they dont require changes to the game mechanics. Significant changes that require rewriting alot of the program (like retrofiting an underground view and all the things associated with it OR modifiable terrain ) would not likely be possible without missing the schedule they mentioned.

If the game is more complicated (thann CotN) it will take even more time to debug (bugs increase geometrically with complexity) and the sooner they do it the sooner they can beta test (and then the time to fix all the bugs found from that).


I would hope they dont wind up rushing like they did with CotN and going to market with so many bugs/deficiencies.

[sitearm]

Actually I think Tilted Mill likes pushy, excuse me, spirited forum members. :D

My guess is our suggestions are read to cross-check assumptions, and that some ideas do influence outcomes, but usually at a subtle level. I'd be on the lookout for playability and marketability. I'd be very encouraged at the volume of discussion and numbers of new members on the forums. I'd be necessarily very careful what I said in the forums to try not to raise unfulfillable expectations.

Vitalis Vitalis Alive, worth living for

[Adonisgi]

It makes it sound like our discussions and suggestions are in fact pretty pointless, except to perhaps build up 'brownie points' for those wishing to take part in the beta...

[Jeff Fiske]

Before I answer with both a short and long response-

You might wonder why we don't reply in the sug forum more often?
Mostly we don’t want to affect future comments, or close off potential debates by taking sides. You are the most unbiased group we have access to and if we directly participate with this too much, this changes. More than once I have seen a whole page of confirmations of an initial idea get turned around by one bold individual who says, “I don’t think so- here is why.” That is very valuable, and might not happen if we were constantly saying yes or no. I also think this is one reason that makes this whole creative process so interesting. (Also, if we don't publicly commit one way or another we can change our minds later after playing!!)

-Short Response-
We compare your suggestions against what has already been implemented into the game, what we are planning to do, and what we think is a good idea that fits into the structure and focus of the game. We feel that the best product is produced when we can multiply a few factors; starting this process as early as possible, being as open as we can, and doing this with the largest group possible.


-Long and over analytical, but some of you like this stuff! (I warned you it is long.)-

Back in 1995/6 I did a couple of press tours with David Lester. I was showing Civil War Generals, and David was showing Lords of the Realm II. We frequently sat in on each others presentations as some magazines wanted to see both products. When ten magazines all react the exact same way to a certain feature, you know you have to adjust what the overall game experience is based on that reaction.

Back then, there were no WWW gaming sites, so only way we could get this valuable independent and unbiased feedback was to take the show on the road and get opinions from press. Yes, the primary role was of a press tour was a PR one, but the feedback from those tours very much molded the first phase of major revisions. (Still to this day E3 proves very valuable to the developer for the same reason.)

Now we can open our game up to the general public (in pieces) and gauge your reaction to the features we are or are not including in the product and which ones we are emphasizing both in gameplay and in marketing.

Sorry for more analogies and stories, but how we use the suggestion forum in particular is similar to something used in commercial aircraft (most likely in other vital information confirmation procedures). The cornerstone of cockpit resource management is the practice of 'Challenge and Response'. This is not merely a call out of checklists and states of the aircraft- but a genuine challenge from one member of the cockpit to the other- to confirm that the aircraft is indeed in the intended state. The individual being challenged is not supposed to assume the aircraft is in any pre-existing state, but to independently confirm each piece of information, perhaps even touching the object to make sure that the brain acknowledges the question. IE- it does not matter if you just looked at the wheels down lever and saw three green, if someone asks you, “Landing gear down, three green?”, you look at the lever, touch it to confirm it is in the correct position and look at the three green lights as if it is the first time.

This whole forum serves as a big Challenge and Response.

You guys bring up the Challenges, even in statements like ‘Yes, finally, diagonal roads’ or ‘I wonder if it really will be like CotN, not Caesar III’. To us we see one as a confirmation that we were right about a feature, and a challenge to us to check over our design and make sure it will meet your expectations about features we already are doing. In this way we can be sure that we have the best possible game when we begin to show it to press, marketing, and later traditionally in a beta test.

Also, when three months from now someone joins the forum and opens a new thread about a key feature they want to see in the game, even though that feature has already been discussed three times, we know that we better have accounted for that feature. In a sense this is another challenge emphasizing the importance of a feature that seems to be on everyone’s mind.

This ‘C&R’ process does not stop until the game ‘goes gold’. The earlier we get this process started and the more issues we move through, we believe the better the end product will be.

I predict that each one of you who are with us the whole way will be able to point to ten features that you personally either saw being discussed or voiced your opinion on. Some of you will recognize almost all of them.

So yes, you do help us shape what is ultimately your game.

[Thucydides]

Dear Jeff, thank you for both your short and long response to the questions. Your answers were very interesting.

[Adonisgi]

Maybe it's not as pointless as Keith makes it sound.

[Nero Would]

Thanks for the explanations Jeff (yes, even the long one). I always thought that you (Tilted Mill, and - for many of you - Impressions) listened to what was said on the forums and often acted on it.

I had assumed that any changes you decided to make would usually not appear until the next game (rather than the one in production). It's great to hear that you are sometimes able to react quicker. And, of course, announcing the game and starting the forum more than a year in advance gives you even more time to do that.

[sitearm]

Adonisgi: You interpreted Keith as saying feedback was pointless, but he did not say that. ;) It's worth reading his comments again to understand what he did say. :eek: And we are all pleased to be reassured that feedback does make a difference. :D

Disertus Diserta Good orator

Maybe it's not as pointless...
It makes it sound like our discussions and suggestions are in fact pretty pointless...

[Keith]

I never meant it was "pointless." I did say that the suggestion threads sole purpose was to generate interest and excitement. It's done that. I know the dev's read the board and suggestions all the time, so it is far from pointless.

They can't possibly include everyone's ideas. Just don't get so attached to your suggestions that when it or they get a virtual "thumbs down" from other board members, or, don't show up in the game, that your ego gets bruised.

[MarkDuffy]

In general, I agree with Keith. The time for suggestions has mostly passed. Right after COTN came out was the best time to tweak TM's development of a new game.

However, I believe that the long time between announcement of C4 & projected release means that TM was concerned about the C3/Pharaoh (I use C3 Cultist to define both of them) vs COTN differences we have all seen. There are very stark differences between them.

TM was only really hearing the COTN side on this forum. Now, the C3 Cultists have joined us & that is a really good thing.

So, hopefully, the game is less finished than we would expect & TM is keeping some of their programming powder dry.

[sitearm]

I believe our feedback affects game development significantly and will continue to do so between now and final gold release.

For one thing, Jeff Fiske's post explicitly says so. For another, web site design research shows that last-minute "tweaks" make huge gains in effectiveness and popularity. In refining they call a similar effect "debottlenecking".

... This whole forum serves as a big Challenge and Response... process does not stop until the game ‘goes gold’. The earlier we get this process started and the more issues we move through, we believe the better the end product will be.

I predict that each one of you who are with us the whole way will be able to point to ten features that you personally either saw being discussed or voiced your opinion on. Some of you will recognize almost all of them.

So yes, you do help us shape what is ultimately your game.

[MarkDuffy]

I believe our feedback affects game development significantly and will continue to do so between now and final gold release. For one thing, Jeff Fiske's post explicitly says so.

C'mon, Sitearm. What do you expect TM to say? :eek:

Marketing IS rocket science. :D

[sitearm]

So Tilted Mill will develop the game as they see fit and give lip service only to feedback?

C'mon, Sitearm. What do you expect TM to say? :eek: Marketing IS rocket science. :D

[Jeff Fiske]

C'mon, Sitearm. What do you expect TM to say? :eek:

Marketing IS rocket science. :D

What gives? I really don't understand.


You are factually incorrect if you state that conversations on these forums about features, gameplay, what people would like to see in the game- won’t have a bearing on the game.

We did Pharaoh, Civil War Generals, Lords of Magic, in less time than we have REMAINING on Caesar IV. Most of our engine work is done, our core design is done, we have all worked in the industry for 8-11 years. None of those were true for the other titles. (Except the engine for Pharaoh was mostly done.) We can look at our game as it is playing right now, look at suggestions from internal and external sources, and apply them as we go forward.

What you say is illogical. Why would we ignore good ideas, or new concepts? Because they were not ours?

I tried to make it crystal clear. We really value the opinion of our fans, and we have lots of time left to implement suggestions. If we wanted to ignore you why would we bother to support a forum?

So please keep the ideas coming, share and comment, and remember that there is a long road ahead. Don't burn yourself out by November, we still have a year to get through!

[MarkDuffy]

You are factually incorrect if you state that conversations on these forums about features, gameplay, what people would like to see in the game- won’t have a bearing on the game.

I didn't say that, Jeff. Please don't jump on Sitearm's bait. I said that the time for general game philosophy is over. The time to tweak TM2 is over. Decisions have already been made. You made them. You chose Caesar IV.

A great choice, by the way. For lots of reasons. ;)

Most of our engine work is done, our core design is done, we have all worked in the industry for 8-11 years.

My point exactly. And you have been listening to this forum since before COTN came out, especially AFTER COTN came out & still do.

Why would we ignore good ideas, or new concepts? Because they were not ours?

Huh?

I seriously doubt that you would scrap the new engine & start over. I seriously doubt that you will significantly change your vision for C4.

I tried to make it crystal clear. We really value the opinion of our fans, and we have lots of time left to implement suggestions. If we wanted to ignore you why would we bother to support a forum?

This was also my point. There is a lotta time between announcement & projected release.

I hope the game is not done & you announced early to shut us up!

[Jeff Fiske]

The point is we are really the only ones qualified to determine the scope of the usefulness of suggestions, and we don't want to stifle ideas. I don't want to leave any stone unturned.

You have no idea what crazy ideas we have in store. We are a year out.

Also, we are always thinking of what we will do next, so even discussions about future titles have an effect.

What do you think years of people talking about a Caesar sequel did!!??

So, hopefully, the game is less finished than we would expect & TM is keeping some of their programming powder dry.
I think it is.

(I agree with yours, and Keith's observation that the foundation has been laid- at least in regards to Caesar IV.)

[MarkDuffy]

You have no idea what crazy ideas we have in store. We are a year out.

I hope you have LOTS of crazy ideas! My very first suggestion upon the announcement of C4 was that I don't want a clone of either game & do yer own thing! :)

Ok, I admit that I demand TiltedVision. ;)

Also, we are always thinking of what we will do next, so even discussions about future titles have an effect.

Like COTN2? :cool: Perhaps Mar 06? Christmas would be much better (hint) !!! :D

[vic_4]

The point is we are really the only ones qualified to determine the scope of the usefulness of suggestions, and we don't want to stifle ideas. I don't want to leave any stone unturned.

You have no idea what crazy ideas we have in store. We are a year out.

Also, we are always thinking of what we will do next, so even discussions about future titles have an effect.

What do you think years of people talking about a Caesar sequel did!!??


I think it is.

(I agree with yours, and Keith's observation that the foundation has been laid- at least in regards to Caesar IV.)
I could suggest a pre-pre-pre-beta to help us to go through this long year.

[sitearm]

Agree! :)

I could suggest a pre-pre-pre-beta to help us to go through this long year...........