Dieties

[Torgen]

I'd *really* like the dieties to not play such a cartoonish part in the game as they did in Zeus and Emperor of the Middle Kingdom, and wouldn't mind them scaled back from Pharoah. Let religion be handled by measuring how the *people* think you're doing in appeasing them. Let communication be through the priests.

To tell you the truth, I borrowed a friend's CD of Zeus to check it out, and gave it back to him after the weekend. I didn't care at all for the "missions to appease the gods"- all I want to do is run my historical city and want it grow and prosper. I'd love for it to be as rich as possible, and reflect the civilization, but I *don't* want "stock 25 wine for Hercules." :p Filling orders for overlords or to gain better trading relations with other cities doesn't bother me however. Funny how that is.

Oh, and I'll add my vote for BIGGER MAPS! ;)

[EmperorJay]

No official statements have been released regarded to this. But on the HG forums, I asked the same and got the response that the Greek deities wandering through the cities actually was sort of realistic because the Greeks believed that. Egyptian gods were more remote. According to that, I don't think you'll see Ra wander through your city.

[Rachelc258]

<<To tell you the truth, I borrowed a friend's CD of Zeus to check it out, and gave it back to him after the weekend. I didn't care at all for the "missions to appease the gods"- all I want to do is run my historical city and want it grow and prosper. I'd love for it to be as rich as possible, and reflect the civilization, but I *don't>>

I loved that...having the gods wander around, and the heros.

[Tar]

I'm not sure how it works in Zeus or some of the other city building games, but for Pharaoh I made myself a BIG sign and put it up beside the monitor that says "Appease the Gods Now" and that helps me remember. Heh, I think my wife thinks it's about her thou. Oh well, it's working out fine.

[Keith]

No official statements have been released regarded to this. But on the HG forums, I asked the same and got the response that the Greek deities wandering through the cities actually was sort of realistic because the Greeks believed that. Egyptian gods were more remote. According to that, I don't think you'll see Ra wander through your city.Might be kind of cool to see Ra fly across the sky in his chariot as a little "easter egg" in the game under special conditions or via a code entry. :D
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[Ineti]

Might be kind of cool to see Ra fly across the sky in his chariot as a little "easter egg" in the game under special conditions or via a code entry. :D

As long as the sun is shown on the screen somewhere, that's a good image of Ra. ;)

But I understand what you meant. Seeing the avatar version would be nifty.

I think Pharaoh did a nice job with the gods, but I'd like to see more gods represented in CotN. Let us see the household shrines! :D

[Eddy]

I prefer more realistic games and in Caesar III there was an option to turn off the god effects. I actually liked that because I found the gods to be unrealistic for me. I don't mind having the people wanting the worship, but I didn't like the city effects that completely unbalanced the game for me, especially the positive ones because it made the game too easy. That's just me though.

[Keith]

I prefer more realistic games and in Caesar III there was an option to turn off the god effects. I actually liked that because I found the gods to be unrealistic for me. I don't mind having the people wanting the worship, but I didn't like the city effects that completely unbalanced the game for me, especially the positive ones because it made the game too easy. That's just me though.
As I said, much earlier in this thread or another, don't recall which, the option for GODS OFF should be considered.

I had no problems with gods in Caesar III/Pharaoh, or Zeus. I have no problems "paying homage" to the ancestral heroes in Emperor and having them walk my streets too.

They have to leave some things like this in for the "fun" of it. Afterall, I believe that they once said in, one form or another, that citybuilders were not meant to be accurate simulations of ancient cities and cultures.

Those that don't want them can turn them off. Those that don't mind or like it can leave it on. Provided such an option is included.

Since we are dealing with 3D graphics in CotN, perhaps the presence of a god or god's blessing can be represented by some sort of phantom or translucent image either animated or still appears one the screen for a brief moment.

I can envision such a phantom of, lets say, Seth, from his shoulders up, fading in as a message, "Seth bestows his blessing...." appears somewhere, then phantom image of Seth fades out after a few seconds.

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[Miut]

Following your idea, Keith, which I like a lot, the screen could take us to one of our Army units and then show the image. And for Bast, a granery, and for Osiris, a farm. That would be really neat. :D Oh, I DO hope they do it! Nice idea indeed.

[vovan]

As I said, much earlier in this thread or another, don't recall which, the option for GODS OFF should be considered.

I had no problems with gods in Caesar III/Pharaoh, or Zeus. I have no problems "paying homage" to the ancestral heroes in Emperor and having them walk my streets too.

They have to leave some things like this in for the "fun" of it. Afterall, I believe that they once said in, one form or another, that citybuilders were not meant to be accurate simulations of ancient cities and cultures.

Those that don't want them can turn them off. Those that don't mind or like it can leave it on. Provided such an option is included.

Well, now, with Emperor, for instance, that would have been a problem, simply because the gods had so much influence on the game. After all, suppose you attacked someone's city in multiplayer, and a god helped them defend it, whereas you could possibly have a god, because you turned them off. On the other hand, suppose we said that if one of the participants of the combat has gods turned off and if any are present on the map, they can't fight, that still would have created disappointed players - imagine someone attacks you, and you were going to rely on a god to defend, when all of a sudden you get a pop-up saying the god will not fight because the other player has gods turned off. Quite disappointing.

On the other hand, if the gods did not play any role in the game at all - which would allow to have an option to turn them off - then they would simply be there for the pure eye-candy of it. And you don't see many features like that in games, simply because they cost development time, while not adding anything tangible to the game. That's why, I think, faced with the decision of whether to put the gods in simply for eye-candy, or to give them an actual important role, the game designer would choose the latter, or not putting them in at all.

That having been said, I didn't have any problems with gods roaming my city. Granted, I didn't quite perceive them so much as gods than some kind of bonus walker type guys, I thought they added a certain fun element to the game - to keep them happy and roaming your streets, all the while bestowing the blessings on your buildings. :)

Since we are dealing with 3D graphics in CotN, perhaps the presence of a god or god's blessing can be represented by some sort of phantom or translucent image either animated or still appears one the screen for a brief moment.

I can envision such a phantom of, lets say, Seth, from his shoulders up, fading in as a message, "Seth bestows his blessing...." appears somewhere, then phantom image of Seth fades out after a few seconds.

That's a nice idea.

And while we are at it, have we had any official word on the presence / effects of the gods in the game yet? :)

[Keith]

Following your idea, Keith, which I like a lot, the screen could take us to one of our Army units and then show the image. And for Bast, a granery, and for Osiris, a farm. That would be really neat. :D Oh, I DO hope they do it! Nice idea indeed.I was just using Seth for the example, but, yes, for all the gods and godesses. And what I was thinking is that these phantom images would appear in the backgrounds sky of the 3D view and not a whole new screen. You could see the clouds through their images for example. Perhpas the "...bestows blessing...." could be a button that when clicked would send the player to the place of the blessing or punishment, which would be the alternate use of this feature.


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Somethine along the lines of the image below, but with a more 3D and transparent appearance of the depicted god/goddess and, of course, more refined than this rough presentation:

[Miut]

Nods on that.. yes, I can see what you mean. Beautifully done graphic - seems you are a man of many talents. ;)
I just thought it might be appropriate to go to the place they controlled, as it were, as an added enhancement - but then it can be an intrusion to keep getting yanked away from where you are. As you say, a Tick box like when you go to a fire would be nice.. ;) And I like the idea of punishment too.. when Seth gets ticked with you etc. :p

[Pharaoh]

I thought that having the Gods wander around the city was the best part of Zeus, Poseidon and Emperor. I wish that CoTN will feature wandering gods that can bless some buildings and aid your city!! Having them battle each other could be cool too. ;)

[Keith]

I thought that having the Gods wander around the city was the best part of Zeus, Poseidon and Emperor. I wish that CoTN will feature wandering gods that can bless some buildings and aid your city!! Having them battle each other could be cool too. ;)
If I really had to pick between methods of the old games I'd say I would prefer to have the less intrusive gods of Caesar III and Pharaoh. The only thing you'd see is their blessing or punishment, mix that with the graphic idea I put together above and I'd be happy.

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[Lannes]

I don't think I could stomach gods walking the streets and interfering directly with things. That might turn me off the game alltogether. I wouldn't mind though to see the people attribute religious meaning to all sorts of things, like the weather, plagues, success or defeat in battle.

Lannes

[EmperorJay]

When I saw the falcon (I think it was) flying in the trailer.. I thought it was Ra we were following!

Altough I like Keith's suggestion, I want it to be even more "realistic" (as far as religion can be realistic, it's diffirent for each and every person). How about a group of howling jackals on a hill when Anubis is happy? Or a couple of evil cats when Bast is unhappy?

[Eddy]

I like the idea of the God in the sky, and also the animals where the jackals howl and the cats hiss. That seems more real to me, and it would fit in with the superstitions of that time period.

[Kiya]

I don't think I could stomach gods walking the streets and interfering directly with things. That might turn me off the game alltogether. I wouldn't mind though to see the people attribute religious meaning to all sorts of things, like the weather, plagues ect., success or defeat in battle.

Lannes

I quite agree with you Lannes, no wandering gods (or heros or ancestors like in Emperor) around in the city, please. Otherwise no problem with religion or paying homage if needed.


How about a group of howling jackals on a hill when Anubis is happy? Or a couple of evil cats when Bast is unhappy?

That sounds great. :D

[Pharaoh_Seti]

I think that there should be gods in the game, kinda like Pharaoh, because it is realistic. Back then, if you didn't pay attention to the gods, the people got scared of an attack of the gods. So there has to be a system to make you appease them. I do agree that the actual disasters are maybe to much, because that is unrealistic. maybe having people riot if the gods are not well taken care of (look at Achnaton, who banned all gods except the sundisc Aton, outside of his capital Achet-Aton, the country was a big mess, and the people were quickly fed up with him)

Having a lot of shrines, statues, and very importantly, a lot of hieroglyphical stories on walls and monuments to appease the gods would be fantastic, as well as seing the people go to the temple and stuff. I hope the game really shows how life was back then

[vovan]

How about a group of howling jackals on a hill when Anubis is happy? Or a couple of evil cats when Bast is unhappy?

I like that one. :) Goes well, IMHO, both with the general "remoteness" of the Egyptian gods from the people, and their mixture of human and animal body part.

[Miut]

Vovan,
The gods were only depicted with animal heads so the people could readily identify them in wall carvings and paintings, for no other reason. Remember, the general population couldn't read, so names under human figures were no use. They knew the current Pharaoh's imbage because his were all the new ones being done! Or the older ones having the face etc replaced. (Hapshetsut's successor defaced lots of her work to claim it as his own, and even Ramesses 2nd claimed a few of his father Seti's works)

The early church did the same kind of thing when faced with a massive population who couldn't read - they had paintings on the walls of the biblical stories, and later, stained glass windows. Then, all services were in Latin, which again the peasants didn't understand.

I am not sure if the peasants did visit the temples and make donations etc, perhaps out in the sticks, or at local shrines, but I am pretty sure Karnak and other main temple complexes were for the royalty and nobles in the main.

Akhenaten isolated himself from non-believers in his new city of Akhetaten so was in the main unaware and uncaring of any problems they faced in say Thebes or Memhis caused by his taking control of the temples from the main cults like Amun, and the suffering of the huge and dispossesed priesthoods of all the other gods. I expect there was not that much rumbling from the peasants in Akhetaten since they at least had work and food because of all the building done there...

Howilng from jackals etc would also be a nice addition - if we as players can remember which sounds are anger and which pleasure! :D My dog can growl in fun, in fact she hardly ever does it for any other reason, but it scares the bejabers out of friend's kids cos they think a growl means anger. Same with cats..
Maybe we need a lioness - Sekhmet, later accepted as a duality with Bast. (felines in domestic form protecting graneries etc) Sekhmet was the Avenger, the Destroyer, and the Protector of Pharaoh - to show Bast's displeasure.

There is an intersting tale of Sekhmet, as The Eye of Ra... here - http://touregypt.net/godsofegypt/hathor2.htm
Ra becomes the first Pharaoh but like men, he grows old -
"But, being in the form of a man, Ra grew old. In time men no longer feared him or obeyed his laws. They laughed at him, saying: "Look at Ra! His bones are like silver, his flesh like gold, his hair is the colour of lapis lazuli!""

He calls the other gods, whom he had made, (according to the story) and Nun advises him to send Sekhmet against mankind.. "
So at the terrible glance from the Eye of Ra his daughter Sekhmet came into being, the fiercest of all goddesses. Like a lion she rushed upon her prey, and her chief delight was in slaughter, and her pleasure was in blood. At the bidding of Ra she came into Upper and Lower Egypt to slay those who had scorned and disobeyed him: she killed them among the mountains which lie on either side of the Nile, and down beside the river, and in the burning deserts. All whom she saw she slew, rejoicing in slaughter and the taste of blood."

I'll let you read the rest about how Sekhmat is tricked into stopping the slaughter, if you are interested. ;)

[Rachelc258]

urgh.... I think the only mythology more confusing (that is, when it comes to keeping the gods and goddess and their stories straight) than the egyptian one is the vedic mythology.

[Josh]

Where were all you gaming atheists when I brought up the reduced (realistic) effects of gods the first time :D

I just dont like the concept of "appeasing the gods" when i feel i should be Appeasing the people...

operating the concept that gods dont exist and never directly interfere with anything, and that famines disaster prosperity and war all happen naturaly in the world. people then attributed these things with gods

Lets say you very strongly worship the god of war.. your troops are going to be more confident, more fierce, and have a distict advantage over a unit who strongly beilives god hates them

now lets say your lacking in temples to the god of the earth (im being generic because most all of these gods carry over to every culture it seems) and there is a drought... the citizens will blame you and be incredibly unhappy. the drought isnt from the lack of temples, but the citizen's backlash is.

[Keith]

The rub is that some people want "realism" and don't think that "gods" are realistic. However, if the game is supposed to be realistic, and the people being represented believed in those very same gods they should be in game. To them they were "real". So leaving out the gods or some perceived blessing or punishment from said gods is not realistic and is not in keeping with the culture of the people.

The game is modelling what life was like then, and not the way the player may want it to be or would like it to be. The gods and their effects were real to the people that lived in those times, so if you ingore that you remove a large portion of that realism you seek from the game.

I think that a lot of the hostility towards the gods walking the streets in Zeus comes more from the fact that a hostile god would walk about destroying your city and people, unless fought off by some hero or other god, and that frustrated people when they had to rebuild what was lost. If the gods just walked about the streets not doing any damage or blessings just being "eye candy", more people that objected to them previously would probably not object to them now.

Whether or not the gods should actually walk the streets in the game should depend on what the ancient perception of those gods was.

As I said several times before, a "Gods ON/OFF" option would be desirable.
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[Spitze]

I love the gods, they give a sense of originality to history games. Unless a citybuilding game has a lot to offer, gods are crucial to giving more to your city.

[vovan]

Admittedly I don't know much about Egypt, so thanks for the info, Miut. :)

Josh, I think has a point, and to a certain extent I agree, but I think we should not forget that the game is not, and indeed cannot be, an accurate, in all respects, simulation of real life. A lot of things are abstractions. There's just so much realism you can put into a game, before no more fits, and you have to abstract things out. Hence, I think it is useful (if you are so inclined) to think of gods as merely abstractions. If it makes more sense to you that you appease your people instead of gods by building temples, then think of it that way. :)

As far as appeasing the gods with physical goods, then this should be a realistic feature, as there probably were sacrifices made to the gods. It is then just a matter of terminology: appease the mythical gods, or make sacrifices - read it however you want.

Then, of course, there is the issue of originality, like Spitze said. Every new game has to introduce new features, otherwise it will be a clone of an old game. One could say here: why not concentrate on adding realistic features, instead. But then, of course, pure realism is not much fun sometimes. It's just so far you can go with realism before the game becomes tedious. Gods walking around your city, IMHO, can be a nice diversion from realism, which is a good thing, because it holds much appeal of the games. Even SimCity has quite a few things that are there simply to divert the player from the "realism" and sometimes tedious management of numbers.

[Lannes]

However, if the game is supposed to be realistic, and the people being represented believed in those very same gods they should be in game. To them they were "real". So leaving out the gods or some perceived blessing or punishment from said gods is not realistic and is not in keeping with the culture of the people.

Given that the Ancient Egyptians believed in their gods, the logical conclusion is that realism demands that this belief is modeled in the game. That means to model religion. Having the gods walk amongst men interfering with the world in ways visible to all actually is at odds with this.

Lannes

[Azeem]

I enjoyed having the gods walk around in Zeus and Emperor quite simply because it is an escape from so-called "realism." Realism is the most overrated aspect in the gaming industry today. My only concern is if the game has good play value and does not appear pretentious (in other words, it doesn't show off with big flashy special effects or attempt to imitate reality in one way or another).

As for "Emperor," there are some Chinese people that still believe that those deities hold some sort of power in their everyday lives. Otherwise, we personally wouldn't be tending to our Guanyin statues and shrines everyday. ;)

[EmperorJay]

Realism is the most overrated aspect in the gaming industry today.
To your opinion that is! :) The perfect game for me would be a 3D First Person Role Playing Game set in Rome (preferably between 50 BC to 200 AD :p ). I would like it to be as realistic as possible, I need to eat, drink, sleep, etc. I'd die to get my hands on such a game, seriously. Realism is not overrated, realism is very important for some games, some designers just apply it wrong. (No example comes to mind though, sorry).

For Children of the Nile, no need for 100% realism. For any other non First Person game, no need for 100% realism. But as soon as I'm supposed to live someones live (or as soon as I'm supposed to be someone), I would like to get it as realistic as possible. :)

[vovan]

The perfect game for me would be a 3D First Person Role Playing Game set in Rome (preferably between 50 BC to 200 AD :p ). I would like it to be as realistic as possible, I need to eat, drink, sleep, etc. I'd die to get my hands on such a game, seriously.

Going a little off topic here, but... That's curious, EmperorJay. I wouldn't be too eaxcited about a game like this. I'd think having to eat, drink, and sleep, (and relieve yourself? :eek: ) would get boring really quickly. To me, a large part of the appeal of games lies in the fact that I enter the world I couldn't possibly in real life. I can fly a plane, drive a Formula 1 car, rule over Egypt, whatever it is - I couldn't do it in real life. Hence, such lowly mundane tasks as eating regularly, for instance, would not appeal to me at all. On the other hand, I could see how such things could fit into an RPG, after all, it's all about impersonating someone.

[EmperorJay]

We're talking about realism here as well, so we're not that far off topic ;).

That's exactly the point, you can't live like a Roman in real life and in the game you'll have chance to do so. Not only that, you would also have a chance to maybe become a senator or Emperor or a legionair perhaps. And it's not the eating and drinking and sleeping in itself that appeals to me, it's visiting a bathhouse and having dinner afterwards while engaging in politics (with your guests), visiting a taverne after a hot day at the forum and the sleeping part can be done while the computer is off.

I know it wouldn't appeal to many people, but I was saying it to point out that the need for realism is not a general thing, but depends on each player.

[G-Force]

How can there be realism in that game if it has programmed events?? If it were real you could just as well become a beggar that tries to win a gladiator fight.

No matter the game type, there'll always be things created, forseen so that the player has something to do. If you want pure realism, you can't have that and the game is purely what you make of it. If you get mugged and killed: bummer :)

G-Force

[Keith]

We're talking about realism here as well, so we're not that far off topic ;).

That's exactly the point, you can't live like a Roman in real life and in the game you'll have chance to do so. Not only that, you would also have a chance to maybe become a senator or Emperor or a legionair perhaps. And it's not the eating and drinking and sleeping in itself that appeals to me, it's visiting a bathhouse and having dinner afterwards while engaging in politics (with your guests), visiting a taverne after a hot day at the forum and the sleeping part can be done while the computer is off.

I know it wouldn't appeal to many people, but I was saying it to point out that the need for realism is not a general thing, but depends on each player.
Not me. If I wanted to play an RTS first person game I wouldn't be buying citybuilders.

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[vovan]

No matter the game type, there'll always be things created, forseen so that the player has something to do. If you want pure realism, you can't have that and the game is purely what you make of it. If you get mugged and killed: bummer.

You mean... Reloading from a save is not realistic?! :eek:

:D

Actually, here now we have a different issue, I think - realism vs unpredictability. Or complete freedom. I guess it is just a matter of definition, but I think one could potentially have a perfectly realistic game, where events are scripted. I mean, say we are watching a movie. There is no interaction involved, yet we see that it is realistic. Similarly, I think with games - realism and complete freedom of actions are slightly different (although closely related) things.

[Torgen]

That having been said, I didn't have any problems with gods roaming my city. Granted, I didn't quite perceive them so much as gods than some kind of bonus walker type guys, I thought they added a certain fun element to the game - to keep them happy and roaming your streets, all the while bestowing the blessings on your buildings. :)


See, that's why I didn't like Emporer as much as I could have. It became less of a city building game and more of a Ancient Hero Tamigotchi. :p

As far as how real various ancient peoples believed their ancestors/gods were, they did NOT walk the streets of their cities! :o ... and I don't want them walking mine! ;)

[Keith]

See, that's why I didn't like Emporer as much as I could have. It became less of a city building game and more of a Ancient Hero Tamigotchi. :p
If you didn't want them walking around your city, you could just toss a minimal offering at them once in while to keep them from becoming angry. Giving an occasional offering is really no different than the festivals of C3 and Pharaoh.
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[vovan]

See, that's why I didn't like Emporer as much as I could have. It became less of a city building game and more of a Ancient Hero Tamigotchi.

LOL Nice comparison. http://207.44.245.200/forums/images/smilies/lol180.gif

And Keith, I think you are slightly missing the point. :) I know if I don't like some feature of a game, it doesn't matter that I can work around it in some way - I still don't like it! :) Besides, weren't there some missions in the campaign, where you had to get a certain number of months of heroes? So, if you want to advance in the campaign, you simply have to have the gods roaming your city.

[Keith]

LOL Nice comparison. http://207.44.245.200/forums/images/smilies/lol180.gif

And Keith, I think you are slightly missing the point. :) I know if I don't like some feature of a game, it doesn't matter that I can work around it in some way - I still don't like it! :) Besides, weren't there some missions in the campaign, where you had to get a certain number of months of heroes? So, if you want to advance in the campaign, you simply have to have the gods roaming your city.
I got the point. You only need them roaming your city when it's a mission goal. Otherwise it's no big deal to give a small offering every now and then.
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[Jayhawk]

I very much agree with Josh' point that the gods exist in the eyes of their worshippers, so you (as the people's chosen leader) are better going to appease those gods (whether you believe in them or not) or suffer the consequences.

And if you doubt the influence of the people's belief, just look at Akhenaten and how quickly his bright ideas of discarding most gods turned him not only out of a job, but nearly got him erased from history.

I don't think they need to walk the streets though, as unlike the Greek gods, Egyptian gods don't seem to have worked that way.

I do think turning of the (perceived) influence of the gods is about as realistic as turning off the patterns of variation in inudation because they muck up your calculations.

[Atlantean Relic]

A little off topic here but in Zeus the god would send monsters after you. Greek myth seem full of monsterous beasts. Was Egyptian myth devoid of monsters or did they just not get the press of their Greek counter parts.

[Ineti]

The Egyptians had their share of monsters. Jackals, demons, snakes, etc. Here's a link to a bunch of info on various beasts and animals of Egypt:

http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/bestiary/

EDIT: Here's another link:

http://touregypt.net/featurestories/beasts.htm

[Keith]

A little off topic here but in Zeus the god would send monsters after you. Greek myth seem full of monsterous beasts. Was Egyptian myth devoid of monsters or did they just not get the press of their Greek counter parts.Ammut was a creature of the netherworld depicted crocodile face, lion main chest and forelegs, and hippopotamus body and rearlegs. Ammut's principal epithets were 'devourer of the dead' and 'great of death'. She waits by the scales in the Hall of the Two Truths.

When a soul was ushered into hall of judgement, Anubis weighed the deceased's heart against the feather of Ma'at (things they should be). Osiris watches and judges. If the heart weights too much or is too light, Ammut devours it dooming the deceased to a perpetual coma.

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Ammut

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[Afterburner]

See, that's why I didn't like Emporer as much as I could have. It became less of a city building game and more of a Ancient Hero Tamigotchi. :p

I have long disliked the wandering gods in both Zeus/Poseidon and in Emperor. But I could never quite put my finger on what it was about them that I disliked.

Until now. "Ancient Hero Tamigotchi" pretty much sums it up.

(I also felt they made the game MUCH too easy, what with the constant walking around and blessing your farm and industry buildings, causing them to overproduce.)

[vovan]

I think part of the reason for making the game comparatively easier than some of the previous games of the genre was to attract new players to the genre. Otherwise, they might be put off by the difficulty level.

[drugmirko]

It is a bit annoying to pay constant homage to dieties in all Sierras CB games. There might at laest be some automated option if there is enough of goods on stock, and if there isnt you could be prompted to choose to wich god you're going to pay the hommage. I found this almost as annoig as farming in MS AOE 1&2. You're occupied with some other thing like fighting or building something, when farms expired and those morrons are just standing idle until you click each of them and tell them to farm aggain. Gee.. :mad:

[vovan]

I think the problem with automatic homage paying in Emperor would be choosing which resources to use, and when to maybe skip paying homage. Imagine running out of money, and the only pending source of income you have is a warehouse full of silk. The caravan from a buyer is already approaching the warehouse, too, when all of a sudden, the automatic homage system spends all of your silk on homage. Grrr. :mad:

Now, with the pharaoh system, where you could only use beer and money, that wouldn't have been so much of a problem. :)

[drugmirko]

I think the problem with automatic homage paying in Emperor would be choosing which resources to use, and when to maybe skip paying homage. Imagine running out of money, and the only pending source of income you have is a warehouse full of silk. The caravan from a buyer is already approaching the warehouse, too, when all of a sudden, the automatic homage system spends all of your silk on homage. Grrr. :mad:


:D :D jes I can see inconveniance of that. But under resources I ment money as well. There could be nice control window where you could set up all necesary aspect of what goods willbe payed to which god in what time and quantity and over what quantity. So you could allways have enough resources to function normaly. As in real life, you don't give to charrity if you don't have enough for yourself. :)

[drugmirko]

And your overall welth could influence gods as well. They should be hapier if you're rich and prospreous, so their apetites could be more refined but not so frequent.

[vovan]

And your overall welth could influence gods as well. They should be hapier if you're rich and prospreous, so their apetites could be more refined but not so frequent.

Well, from a realistic point of view (aaaahhhhhhh! :() that could be taken several ways. They could even demand more if you are wealthy (which it seems to me they already do in a way). I mean, if you are welathy and give them some petty gift of clay, they might get angry - you are not willing to spend some of the more expensive goods you have on them.

[Eddy]

That reminds me of one of the few gripes I had in Pharaoh. I always was forgetting to have the festivals because I'd be too busy building something or testing a new layout, or just watching the pretty pictures while listening to the music. What I wished had existed was a way to schedule the various festivals so that the festival for Osirus would occur the month after harvest, or have the festival for Bast occur the month before planting. I'd like them on a recurring basis much like we have Christmas the same time every year so then I wouldn't have to always manually do it. It would still be my responsibility to ensure that there is enough money and resources to have a proper festival, but in my case, the coffers would overflow, the warehouses would be filled with delicious cold beer, and the people would lose hope because I forgot to click on the square for two years now.

[vovan]

I'd like them on a recurring basis much like we have Christmas the same time every year so then I wouldn't have to always manually do it.

Indeed, that would be a cool feature. But I think one must establish some sort of line dividing the automation features that take the burden of boring tasks off the player from those that reduce the challenge of the game. One could argue that remembering to hold the festivals regularly is all part of the challenge, and hence automating it would make the game unnecessarily easier, while it could also be argued that holding a festival is a non-decision - that is, there is no advantage of not holding the festival over holding the festival and hence the player would always choose the latter option when given a choice, and thus the feature is a good candidate for automation. I've heard both sides of the argument before, as it depends somewhat on the player, I believe, though it seems to me that more people would like to have festivals automated than not.

[Keith]

Since the AI in CotN is going to allow the people in the game some autonomy, I would not be surprised if you didn't see festivals occurring on their own at specific times of the year.

Unlike Pharaoh and the other citybuilders, where the people were realatively "dumb" and operated under a small set of fixed rules, I don't think that paying homage and throwing festivals will be too much of a problem in CotN.

Ken just mentioned that we are going to have ample time to wander through the streets of our cities, so I don't think we are going to have to deal with too many details of the old games.
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[Eddy]

If the people did throw their own festivals, I'd be able to party with them then? That'd really be cool. To try and keep this on track, I wonder how much autonomy the people will have. Will they have a certain desire to work in one industry over another? Will they have a preference in entertainment? So many questions I want to ask.

[G-Force]

I think that a potters house will be filled with a family who desires to make pottery :)

I doubt or personal desire will have a big influence on the jobs needing to be done.

G-Force

[drugmirko]

Yup, Eddy summoned much of what I ment under thought that gods could be happier if you're whelty and prosperous by honnoring them through festivals. In fact it would be nice if a calendar could play bigger role in determing what festival and to which god is dedicated. They could be predetermend in calendar, you could be prompted and then you could decide if and with what goods you are going to celebrate it.

[drugmirko]

And since it will be bit more "Sim" oriented game, it would be nice if individuals in your city could decide which god are they going to worship. Their religious preferences could be determent by type or number of shrines near their home or their place of work. Consequently, total number of followres in the city could influence gods hapiness.

[Eddy]

That'd be an interesting twist. Individual desire as to what gods are worshipped. In Pharaoh I usually would have one or two temples at most for a neighborhood. I didn't really care about equal distribution of places of worship as long as the overall number of temples was sufficient to please the gods themselves. This would make a real change in my game strategy.

[vovan]

I wonder though, it seems to me that the Egyptian idea is that people worship all gods, not some or the others? Then, conscious desire of the population to worship some gods at some time and then others at other time would certainly force one to distribute the temples in such a way that most people have access to most temples. Interesting idea, it would be, indeed. http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Miut]

Originally Posted by EmperorJay
The perfect game for me would be a 3D First Person Role Playing Game set in Rome (preferably between 50 BC to 200 AD ). I would like it to be as realistic as possible, I need to eat, drink, sleep, etc. I'd die to get my hands on such a game, seriously.

Emperor Jay -
Suggestion for you. I lived in the UK till about 6 weeks ago. I am a re-enactor of the Vikings of 10th C - have been for 25 years now. I was very active for 18 of them, going camping every weekend from Easter till the end of September on the major English battlefields where our society recreated various battles for English Heritage who employed us.

Certainly since the movie Gladiator there has been an upsurge in Gladiatorial Schools across the Southern Counties of the UK. These groups put on Gladiatorial combats for audiences anywhere.. Now it might just be worth your while looking for such a group where you live - look Nationally as well as locally. If you can't find anything, try the UK cos you can always, with their help, start your own school up, you know. It isn't that difficult. A female friend and I started what is now a flourishing Viking group in Glasgow, the city I was born in. If we can do it, trust me, anyone can. Another organization interested in the same period can put you in touch with armorers etc to make the necessary weapons and armor.
The SCA, an American body called Society for Creative Anacronisms, is also useful for information on the period as they cover all historical epochs and go into minute data when they research it.

Before you write this off, our society has a huge Living History section who don't do combat but who recreate dwellings they can take to events, plus transportable skills like metal forging, weaving, dying, cooking etc. I happened to join as I liked the combat side (I fought with steel sword or did combat or display archery) but there are other sides to it. Our Society, called "The Vikings", is featured in educational books, videos etc all over the UK and elsewhere, including several Scandanavian countries.

Having spent those many years living, eating, sleeping pretty authentically, I can categorically tell you it is overrated! The food is awful, and forget authentic tents - gimme my hi-tech air bed, sleeping bag, tent and camp stove any day! Mind you, wearing wool clothing does keep you drier and warmer, but then I do have a pure wooll 6 ft circuklar cloak to wear to keep me toasty when not actively running up and down hills in armor hitting other people! ;) I was a local Group Leader for many years till I moved here. We do have American groups within our ranks.

This is our site. www.vikingsonline.org.uk/resources/index.htm
And here are some pix of us at events so you can see how authentic we are. ;) Go to the - resources/gallery2004/index.html page

See, you can do it almost for real, and not in a game format! :D

EDIT: won't let me enter the urls as Links for some reason...

[Elvenwarrior2001]

Personally I always turn off the "god effects." They're too plain petty. ;)

Elven

[Jayhawk]

It is a bit annoying to pay constant homage to dieties in all Sierras CB games. There might at laest be some automated option if there is enough of goods on stock, and if there isnt you could be prompted to choose to wich god you're going to pay the hommage.
I'd say automating it is going to nullify the need for paying homage. If the idea is to remember them or suffer the consequences, automating them makes it no more than a resource drain.

Of course, a real ruler would probably have a scribe for it, but then again if you are supposed to be a divine ruler...you can't really afford not to think of them yourself.

[Ineti]

Of course, a real ruler would probably have a scribe for it, but then again if you are supposed to be a divine ruler...you can't really afford not to think of them yourself.

IIRC, the pharaoh was responsible for helping the high priests prepare the gods for their day. Helping to dress, feed, and make up the statues that represented the gods in their shrines.

If nothing else, the pharaoh would likely want to pay at least lip service to the gods, to stay on the good side of his people.

[Azeem]

How about assigning a bureaucrat in the game to handle religious affairs? Your standing with the gods could be affected by how good your bureaucrat is. Perhaps this official should be given a salary. A salary too low would make him corrupt and a salary too high would make him greedy, thus affecting his performance in handling religious affairs. For example, if he's corrupt, then he "forgets" to pay homage to the gods (and keeps some of the extra stuff for himself ;) ), and if he's greedy, he becomes too lazy and doesn't hold a festival on time.

[G-Force]

Or he could do a good job when he's new, but after a few years he'll become corrupt. So we'll hire a new every few years: problem solved :)

G-Force

[Elvenwarrior2001]

lol. It wouldnt' be years...it'd be days. ;) What do you do when you've exhausted the Egyptian population? ;)

Elven

[EmperorJay]

Thank you Miut, maybe I should try to find a such a group in Holland altough I've never heard of them so far. I believe we do have a group doing Napoleonic Battles though.. but never heard of Romans (besides a few people who're working in an amusement park were the recreated streets from certain periods in history).

Having spent those many years living, eating, sleeping pretty authentically, I can categorically tell you it is overrated! The food is awful, and forget authentic tents - gimme my hi-tech air bed, sleeping bag, tent and camp stove any day! Mind you, wearing wool clothing does keep you drier and warmer, but then I do have a pure wooll 6 ft circuklar cloak to wear to keep me toasty when not actively running up and down hills in armor hitting other people! ;) I was a local Group Leader for many years till I moved here. We do have American groups within our ranks.
That's why I would like it to be a game, I could still eat pizza and have a coke while playing :p .

[Uatch-Khepheru]

No official statements have been released regarded to this. But on the HG forums, I asked the same and got the response that the Greek deities wandering through the cities actually was sort of realistic because the Greeks believed that. Egyptian gods were more remote. According to that, I don't think you'll see Ra wander through your city.

Actually during festivals, the priests would take out a golden statue of the particular god they served and parade it around the city for the citizens to pray to and ask advice from the god, for a fee I'm guessing.

[EmperorJay]

But that's different from actually seeing Ra. I would like to see such parades, I love parades.

[vovan]

But that's different from actually seeing Ra. I would like to see such parades, I love parades.

Ah, yes, a parade would be great. :) The New Year's parade in Emperor was veyr cool, for instance.

[Keith]

Thank you Miut, maybe I should try to find a such a group in Holland altough I've never heard of them so far. I believe we do have a group doing Napoleonic Battles though.. but never heard of Romans (besides a few people who're working in an amusement park were the recreated streets from certain periods in history).
There are quite a few groups that do re-enactments of Roman legions in Europe and the U.S.

http://www.gemina.nl/ - Netherlands!

http://www.legion-fourteen.com/romans.htm
http://www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3296/index.htm
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/3761/index.htm
http://www.geocities.com/legioxf/

This page has links to many more:

http://members.tripod.com/Gemina/page6.html

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[EmperorJay]

Thanks Keith, the Gemina one is for 18+ years :( , but the site itself is a wonderful source for information on the military in my region. I'll take a look at the other links as well, but I can't afford going abroad for a thing like this.

[Miut]

Azeem,
talking realistically here, you are underestimating the relationship between Pharaoh and the gods. Each Pharaoh had several titles and took 5 names on his ascencion to the throne, one of which was a Horus name. As heir he was known as Horus in the nest.
Pharaoh was the personification of the divine on earth to his people during most of Ancient Egyptian history. It was his duty to keep the balance between the earthly realms and those of the gods - to preserve Ma'at, which was a principle as well as a goddess, by worshipping the gods properly and most importantly, building religious buildings - temples etc.
Only the high priest or the Pharaoh could enter the inner sanctum and open the doors of the wooden shrine (naos to use the Greek word Egyptologists seem to use a lot) and as someone has said here, and I said in another post somewhere, take out the god's image and wash, oil, dress and feed the god (usually Amun) for the day. This is not something you can hand over to a beaurocrat without overturning everything the people understood and relied upon! Gee, it would be as radical a change as that of Akhenaten's! ;)

But you could have a High Priest to control it and have him become corrupt, as that fits in very nicely with historical facts. :)

EmperorJay - You're in the Netherlands, yes? And don't worry about age if you are under 18 cos I have no idea on your age. Our society, The Vikings, will allow younger members to join alone if they get a letter from the parents, and if they accompany another family unit on events ie camp with and beside them, and so on.. there are ways round such rules for the decent young folk who are really interested, and those who are willing to do what it takes to join. ;)

You see, as a Society and even as a local group, we need to make sure all under 18's are sensibly warm both out and about during the day, whether in costume or not, and are warmly billeted at night, as well as sensibly fed. I have had a guy in my group of 25 who neglected to tell us he has no sense of when he is cold go almost hypothermic on us because he was too damned proud to admit just as we left the house when I asked him if he had a sleeping bag etc, that he didn't! He ended up sleeping in his trench coat outside alone cos he was an idiot and never told anyone he had nowhere to sleep! Any of us would have put him up if asked. Luckily someone coming back from the pub that night fell over him. Even more luckily he ended up in part of my huge frame tent with borrowed gear from anyone who could lend anything wrapped round him to thaw him out. He was an idiot cos he knew I had 3 spare sleeping bags ready to lend anyone who needed one. I was well ticked off with him! I devised a list thereafter given his name, for all membbers which detailed exactly the minumum you needed to take with you to keep warm, dry, sleep warm and dry and eat reasonably to avoid hypothermia, exhaustion and heat stroke! Gnah! You'd think adults would have more sense but they don't. So that. along with all the European Health and Safety rulings is why the care taken on under 18's as members when they come without their family joining as well.
I know there are ways round the rules cos as a Group Leader for many years I have accepted the odd teenager and dealt with this, and even taken a few youngsters in under my personal wing alongside my own son. :) Nothing ventured, nothing gained, eh?

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[EmperorJay]

Thanks Miut, will check it out! I'll mail Gemina as soon as I'm done with my exams :)

Back on topic. Weren't there any Atheist Egyptians? I mean, if they had corruption and crime, then some people would not live according to Ma'at. Those people thus kinda threw away their chance on a nice after life. I assume they did not believe in any deities then?

Would the relationship between the Pharaoh and the Gods also mean that the chance you'll be overthrown by your own people is close to zero? I've never heard about any Pharaoh being overthrown by the people, only by usurpants.

[Uatch-Khepheru]

Thanks Miut, will check it out! I'll mail Gemina as soon as I'm done with my exams :)

Back on topic. Weren't there any Atheist Egyptians? I mean, if they had corruption and crime, then some people would not live according to Ma'at. Those people thus kinda threw away their chance on a nice after life. I assume they did not believe in any deities then?

Would the relationship between the Pharaoh and the Gods also mean that the chance you'll be overthrown by your own people is close to zero? I've never heard about any Pharaoh being overthrown by the people, only by usurpants.

Well, during the First Intermediate Period, the title of "Pharaoh" was reduced to a mere figurehead. The Greek Historian (forgot his name at present) wrote of "70 Pharaohs in 70 days", meaning that the people were so enraged by the corrupt government that everytime a new Pharaoh was appointed, they would overthrow him. But your half-right, this didn't happen very often in Egypt's history. However, even in a stable king's reign, such as that Ramses II, there was turmoil. After he came home from the battle of Kadesh (not really losing, but not really victorious either), he had to put down unrest in his country because the people had lost faith in him.

[Miut]

Uatch-Khepheru
You are referring to the King List by Manetho, a priest from Sebennytus who lived in 3rd C BC in the reign of the Ptolomies. I think you thought it was Herotodus, it wasn't.
The following is paraphrased from the new book I just got called "Pharaohs" by Aude Gros de Beler with a foreword by the Egyptian Ambassador at the time - 1999.

The 7th Dynasty, the one Mantheo, writing at least 1,700 years later, says had 70 kings in 70 days is immediately after the First Intemediate Period, (2181 - 2060 BC) so nothing is known of it except from his writings. I cannot believe they had time to crown 70 kings in 70 days as they had very elaborate rituals for anointing a new king. For a start, everything ground to a halt for 70 days while the old one was embalmed and buried! I think his writings must be considered less than wholly accurate..;)
From the book, then..
Mantheo is the one who divided the reigns into thirty dynasties, but his work, known as the Aegyptica is only known from copies as it was destroyed in the fire at the Alexandria library.
His dvisions seem totally random and remain a mystery today. In many cases, kings of the same dynasty have no family links to it, unless the links are still unknown, and conversly, the dynasty can change from father to son. They are also unequal in nature - some are fictitious like the 7th dynasty that includes 70 kings in 70 days; some are concurrent, the 22nd and 23rd for instance; some number very few kings - Amyrtaios is the only king from the 28th - some have a great number - the 18th has 14 kings and the Ramesside dynasty at leat 11 pharaohs by the name of Ramnesses..
Using the information in Manetho, Egyptologists have divided the 30 dynasties into Kingdoms, or prosperous periods, and Intermediate periods, about which almost nothing is known as they correspond to a dark age of economic, political and social turmoil.

Not at all sure where you got that Ramesses came home to turmoil... from the same book we have "The Poem of Pentaur" immortalizing the battle of Kadesh (Ramesses version agreed) on the temple facades throughout the kingdom.
It goes on to say if Hittite archives are to be believed, Ramesses went home after a questionable victory where he succeeded in only saving his army from total disaster. The two warring armies left the battlefield without either being defeated. So I cannot see how you come to think there was unrest, unless you assume there was because of the amount of self-praise of the event - but this was normal for a Pharaoh. It was his first battle too, you know. ;) Young men tend to exaggerate their "firsts".

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[Jayhawk]

Actually during festivals, the priests would take out a golden statue of the particular god they served and parade it around the city for the citizens to pray to and ask advice from the god, for a fee I'm guessing.

I hope we'll be able to host such festivals/ceremonies as the one whos name I seem to have forgotten, but took place between Karnak and Luxor, where the statues of the Luxor trinity were carried along the ceremonial road between the two places.

I also wonder if we'll see the priests open the temple door at sunrise to let the sun enter the inner sanctum ;)

[vovan]

I also wonder if we'll see the priests open the temple door at sunrise to let the sun enter the inner sanctum

Heh. sure hope so. It's little details like that that make it really exciting to actually cruise through the city and see what your people are up to, instead of just concentrating on the numbers all the time. :)

[Keith]

An alternate idea I have for my religion thread suggestion post of where a god might fade into view in the sky when bestowing a blessing or punishment then fade out again, would be to have a ghost like aura of a particular god appear in a cocoon like energy field like manner around a priest from the temple as he walks through the city.

As the player you would see this engery spectre surrounding the priest character, but the people would not react to it. However as the priest walks by some related area to that god a blessing/punishment would be bestowed upon it on a random basis. This would eliminate having the actual gods walking the streets, but essentially making their presence felt in the game.

It could be just a glowing aura with the spectral head of the specified god, with the priest inside.
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[Jayhawk]

Hmmm, I like that idea, Keith.

Speaking of gods, I wonder which of them will be represented in the game. One assumes Osiris, Isis, Seth, Horus, Ra and Thoth to make their presence felt, but how about Amon? Bast? Sekhmet? Bes? Sobek? Ptah? Khnum? and many many others...

I wonder if the game will portray the changes of deities based on time and place in the game, or whether we will have a fixed number of deities, that will be with us through out the game?

[Keith]

Hmmm, I like that idea, Keith.

Speaking of gods, I wonder which of them will be represented in the game. One assumes Osiris, Isis, Seth, Horus, Ra and Thoth to make their presence felt, but how about Amon? Bast? Sekhmet? Bes? Sobek? Ptah? Khnum? and many many others...

I wonder if the game will portray the changes of deities based on time and place in the game, or whether we will have a fixed number of deities, that will be with us through out the game?
Until they tell us we won't be sure, hopefully we'll see them all.

Here's a page that has a list of the various dieties (http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~nicholson/egypt/deities.html) and a brief description of what they were responsible for, plus a image of the god as they were represented in tombs, etc.
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[EmperorJay]

Gameplay wise, the number of gods should depend on who has to appease them. I can't keep an eye on 20 gods or more, but if the people will take care of most of the hommages themself, I'd say, add them all!

[Rachelc258]

jayhawk:
<<The perfect game for me would be a 3D First Person Role Playing Game set in Rome (preferably between 50 BC to 200 AD ). I would like it to be as realistic as possible, I need to eat, drink, sleep, etc. I'd die to get my hands on such a game, seriously.>>


So you are particularly interested in the early empire? What about it specifically appeals to you?

(Personally, I don't think I'd like it as much, especially the really early part, I'd get mad and start cursing octavian. <g>)

[Jayhawk]

Was that me who said that, Rachel? I'm almost sure I didn't.

[EmperorJay]

I said it.

Well, maybe it should be a little later than 50 BC, but the period between 50 BC and 200 AD is the period in which the big things were build, the Colloseum, the Forums, Baths etc. Of course, things were build after 200 AD, but somewhere around 200 AD, the beginning of the end starts and Byzantium is getting more and more important. When you'll see the city between 50 BC and 200 AD, you'll witness the transition from a city of brick to a city of marble (so they say).

I actually favour the Republic era more, but if I would be living the life of just a citizen, I'd prefer the Empire.