TM in the HOT seat (HeHe) !?!?!?!

[MarkDuffy]

OK, TM, my buddy Hexagonian speaks for quite a vocal group.

Why did you make COTN & especially the game missions so "easy"?

The ball is in YOUR court. :p

EDIT: To be fair, there have been many threads & sub-threads which have brought this topic up. This (http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7162&page=1&pp=20) is the most recent I've been involved in. Also, this poll (http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7109&page=1) is alarming! Currently COTN ~ 19. C3 ~ 20.

[Jeff Fiske]

I missed this whole thing.

Per the other thread what is broken?

Do you have an organized society that you can accomplish anything with? You might argue that your state is about as evolved as some current places on the planet, where 'civilized man' has not caught up with them yet.

CotN is an entertaining representation of a system of government that evolved from peoples needs.

Their needs drive their behaviors. That is pretty cool, we think.

If that is fun to you, then great. If you find it boring because it is not challenging- well diablo is boring because all you do is kill the same monsters in different clothing.

It is a matter of opinion, and god forbid we try something different for a change.

Hey, maybe it is fun to really pick up the crook and see what it was like for an Egyptian Pharoah to run a city.

Yes, when it gets really big- that is when it can get dangerous.
BTW- The system actually worked too well in some cases. Having people check into society and check out based on free will created a realistic cycle of checks and balances- good times and bad times. The difficulty comes in trying to prevent any bad times.

[Helle]

I have to say that in a way I think that COTN is too easy. With that I mean, its not easy to get a city running, but when you get it running, it runs itself and therefore there is not much you can do other than sit and wait. If you need a resourse for worldmap there is not much to do in the city while you are waiting.

Of course that is not directly bad, but its a bit boring when everything is fine and you can leave the game running for an hour and it doent fall apart.

Frankly I miss fires and plagues, at least they made you busy when the city was fine by itself.

Didnt think I would ever miss a plague or a fire, but I do. :D

[MarkDuffy]

Per the other thread what is broken?

Some feel that COTN is impossible to lose. I agree with this, cuz I have never been overthrown. The question is why did TM make it this way?

The difficulty comes in trying to prevent any bad times.

My response to them is that COTN gives you a time penalty instead of overthrow. You have to fix it. You can fix it. They want a downward spiral that you cannot escape.

Question

Are they wrong?

[hexagonian]

Making this quick, as I'm about to head home from work...
I missed this whole thing.
Per the other thread what is broken?
Posted in the linked thread, page 4...
Mark removed all Bakers from an established city and let it run on autopilot for 30 years.

Bug 1???
- Look objectively at Mark's results...The most glaring issue, IMO, is the difference between how many farmers the city should be able to support, and how many farmers actually are working in the city. The city should only support 10 Farmers, yet it has 76. Those extra farmers should have reverted back to villagers or vagrants. Do that and the city would not have the huge surpluses of food, and the city would be in a more advanced state of collapse.

Bug 2???
- It was my impression that all government workers needed Bakers to survive long-term (including Brick Makers, Brick Layers, Papyrus Makers) Shouldn't the removal of bakers over a 30-year period cause an exodus of these workers? It did not in Mark's test. If it doesn't, perhaps it should, so that Bakers have a higher importance to gameplay.


Game design opinion...
- The game does de-emphasize the need of many gameplay elements in order to succeed - you merely have to focus on a few areas and you can let the others slide. In my last couple of cities, I did not worry too much about funeral or security needs, because as long as I maintained the other areas, my city was in no danger of decaying. Contrast that with the gameplay effects I spelled out above from Pharaoh and other CBs. You simply cannot afford to ignore any of the basics (food, fire, damage, health, security, religion) because each of these elements had the potential to wreck your city - and the higher level luxuries (education, entertainment, lux. goods) were valuable to evolve your citizens, which was often needed to meet a scenario requirement.

There are fewer basic needs in CotN too (where are the structural threats such as fire and damage???) - and you actually can afford to ignore some of those basics for long stretches of the game (security, funeral) in just about every scenario because the player could compensate by making sure his other basic areas were strong. In short, I have less to worry about as I build up my city, and once I get it running, it takes very little on my part to maintain it (relatively speaking - a lot less than is the case in earlier CBs, as easy as those were)

I will say this, I truly believe that the potential is there to have both challenging and good gameplay in the gaming system you have created in CotN, but things really need to be tweaked in the present system to pull that off.

[David Beebe]

I tried to vote 10 for TM being HOT (instead of not) but I think the poll is broken...

:eek:

[MarkDuffy]

Bug 1???
- Look objectively at Mark's results...The most glaring issue, IMO, is the difference between how many farmers the city should be able to support, and how many farmers actually are working in the city. The city should only support 10 Farmers, yet it has 76. Those extra farmers should have reverted back to villagers or vagrants. Do that and the city would not have the huge surpluses of food, and the city would be in a more advanced state of collapse.

Hexagonian, they were reverting to villagers, but it takes time for them to establish villiger huts. I told you that you were drawing the wrong conclusion from this image. Farmers hadn't gotten their eviction papers yet, cuz there were no cell phones in those daze. What happened is that the farmers reduced to about 50 & Noble class dissatisfaction ended. Most Nobles came back within 10 minutes real time & the number of farms they manage increased.

The only thing that upset the Nobles was security. They had everything else. Raiders struck with no military & Nobles got upset. They got over it. Raiders come in waves & the Nobles react, as it should be. They get over it.

Farmers DO follow the Max Farms limit, just not as quickly as you would wish.

This is not a bug. I have no complaints with this at all.

Things you CAN argue: Why weren't the vagrants more hostile? Why didn't the Nobles stay mad longer?

[hexagonian]

Hexagonian, they were reverting to villagers, but it takes time for them to establish villiger huts. I told you that you were drawing the wrong conclusion from this image.
OK, that was stated and I missed it - but it would have been a little clearer to post the specifics as you stated directly above...

What happened is that the farmers reduced to about 50 & Noble class dissatisfaction ended. Most Nobles came back within 10 minutes real time & the number of farms they manage increased.
...in the thread where this issue was being discussed. I tend to like specifics in a situation where I only have barebones info and a single pic.

I was looking at the broad picture of a game run on autopilot for an evening and the effects at a point in time based on the info of 2 pics. What I did see was a city that was not in a dire situation, and now based on your above quote was easily salvagable, even though it had been on autopilot all evening. When a game allows a player to do that, you have to question just how hard the game is.

Mark, answer me this...
The gamefile you used for your test was one that you said was right before you would have won the scenario - you chose to allow the game to go on without bakeries. How easy was it to get that city at that level of efficiency?



The only thing that upset the Nobles was security. They had everything else. Raiders struck with no military & Nobles got upset. They got over it. Raiders come in waves & the Nobles react, as it should be. They get over it.
I do wonder if security is the only issue in those situations - at least to the extent that all of your nobility class vacates a city at one time. I know I have not had that type of mass exodus in any of my games, even the ones where I neglected security and had regular raider attacks.

Still it could be the only issue. But once again, if so, the overall game mechanics prevent this from being a drastic situation for the player.



Farmers DO follow the Max Farms limit, just not as quickly as you would wish.
This is not a bug. I have no complaints with this at all.
After the above clarification, I agree it is not a bug. It's a design issue.


Things you CAN argue: Why weren't the vagrants more hostile? Why didn't the Nobles stay mad longer?
...why aren't all government workers (such as Brickmakers, Bricklayers, Papyrus Makers, Stone Masons) affected by the lack of Bakeries (as spelled out in the manual?) Or if they are, why is it cyclical in recovery, (gov worker vacates the premises, then after a short period of time, a new one automatically comes in...) which actually creates no real hardship for the player?

A possible solution would be that until the city had the proper food (as provided by the bakers), then you could not regain lost government workers (this wouldn't apply to all grads because of their inheritance effect, but I'd favor putting them with all other gov workers in this requirement). Failed innudations would become drastic events, but players could also create stockpiles (preplanning is a good gameplay element), and it also would allow players the ability to recover once they do get some good harvests.

I do not favor a time penalty as the sole one, and I also feel that the penalty does not have to be a endless downward spiral that you cannot get out of either. (However - if a player puts the game on autopilot, then it should be an endless downward spiral)

But the effects of negligent gameplay should be more drastic to the player than it is now. This is not a bug, but it is reflective of game design - and is the overall point I am trying to make in my first post in this thread (and in many others on this forum). Make all of the basics (food, security, religion, funeral, etc) important so that a player has to expend a lot of resources to make sure all areas are covered, and it becomes critical to the player if he does not.

In my last city (29 years), I had 10 Nobles and a grand total of 5 tombs - and of those 5 tombs, at least 3 were for Pharaoh. I had no need to build any for anyone else. None of my nobles clamored for tombs, and so I never bothered. In fact, for most of the city's life, I had a Mortuary but no designated Priest. When a Pharoah died, I'd allocate a worship priest for a couple of months, then flip him back to temple duty after a few months.

Thankfully, I am not the only one on this issue (thanks also to Helle for posting here too)

[wodinoneeye]

...why aren't all government workers (such as Brickmakers, Bricklayers, Papyrus Makers, Stone Masons) affected by the lack of Bakeries (as spelled out in the manual?) Or if they are, why is it cyclical in recovery, (gov worker vacates the premises, then after a short period of time, a new one automatically comes in...) which actually creates no real hardship for the player?

)


Brickmakers, Bricklayers, Papyrus Makers, Stone Masons arent needed for a stable (already built) city (the scribes could probably do without the papyrus - just operate at a lower efficiency).

I would be more interested in how the City operated without Priests and Scribes getting paid (usually these are the whiners who will destabalize things).

I would also think that at some point there would be so many government workers protesting that some political calamity would befall the 'pharaoh' and lead to a collapse.....

[MarkDuffy]

Hexagonian, your answer is here (http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showthread.php?p=68993#post68993)

This sub-subject is kinda getting outta hand. It is mostly my fault for it going all over the forum.

This thread, here in the TM section was for TM. For you & me, I would like to keep our debate in the COTN section if it is OK with you.

I will be happy to continue it with you but in the proper location.

I had one going with both Jeff & Sitearm in the C4 section which I also apollogize for, but that started with getting Jeff to responds for TM. I kinda tracked him down.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. Too much of this & TM will move this thread. I seriously want TM to respond to my original question & not really debate you here.

Thankx! :)

[hexagonian]

No problem...

It got off topic because Jeff asked a question abot the 'broken' aspect of the game as it was discussed in that thread, so I was responding to that question. Then it spiraled out of control. ;)

The last section of my previous post is the crux of my viewpoint of the game, as related to the subject of this thread, so the discussion can work off of that.

[Jeff Fiske]

Nah, we are not even close to deleating this thread.

It is a design issue.

First let me say something. You can build a huge private society. One without a government at all. Is there anything wrong with that?

Oh, people will come into 'your society', find out that it is a sham, and go back to being a villager for a while. Then maybe they change their mind again and decide to become a shopkeeper- again. Basically you are just a cult figure promising one thing and delivering another.

The fact that nothing really bad happens is interesting as the ‘faux society’ is not big enough or complex enough for enough people from across all walks of life to overthrow you. It is the fact that everyone has to be angry at you at the same time that makes overthrow as rare as it is.

In the tradition of gaming I would admit that overthrows should have been more frequent. IE- A good rule of thumb is games are more enjoyable when you overcome a challenge with failure consequences.


What we discovered about our real economy with free will- it was hard to break. It was hard to create those impossible to overcome spirals. Too many individuals were fighting in their own interest to fix it- and usually one group would fix their problem, thereby avoiding an overthrow.


As far as messing with the numbers, in order to make the economy work the chain of values is like some massive Rube Goldberg machine. You can't change anything without affecting the whole system. So we had to make some careful choices, and seeing as how the masses say our games are always too difficult- we erred on the side of caution. Though we did let our games run overnight to Overthrows.


The larger and more complex a city, the easier it is for an overthrow.


Next time we should put the threshold controls and values in a table that can be tweaked.


If we had another six months on it, I think it would have been cool to have riots, or segments of the population that could have enraged other segments, creating a tipping point. This was far more difficult to implement than we originally thought it would, hence the comment about six months. Also, you can add that more ‘evil edicts’ involving your military forces could have been interesting. Ever live in LA?

But we live and we learn.

[MarkDuffy]

I am satisfied with your answer, Jeff.

COTN does what I want it to. I don't play to lose, so I have not observed situations that I should have lost in (Except for NumakNatut's Anisazi user-created scenario where I asked for it & once when I went crazy at the start to see just how fast I actually could build early & found everyone deserting me & I got my magic Priest.).

Most of my observations have occured during testing the game & I found it lacking, in that it does not go for the throat when it should, or when you get into trouble.

And I was shocked with the results of the "No bakery test". Last night I ran a "No common shops" test. Sad. But, to be fair, no one should be playing the game under these conditions anyway.

I don't find it boring/unchallenging either, cuz I play fast (not speed-setting fast). I build & explore fast.

Thankxs for the reply & actually answering my question this time. :)

~ ~ ~

Helle, a well run city should not fall apart due to the city itself. Perhaps external influences...

[sitearm]

To the extent that the simulation is realistic, this result has huge implications for "real" economies. : surprised but thoughtful expression :

What we discovered about our real economy with free will- it was hard to break. It was hard to create those impossible to overcome spirals. Too many individuals were fighting in their own interest to fix it- and usually one group would fix their problem, thereby avoiding an overthrow.

[Azeem]

The one thing that I did find quirky was that people are far too forgiving. You can deny them basic things, starve their families, and they're still not mad enough! :p On this, I must agree with Hexagonian. You're often forgiven too much for your errors and there aren't enough reprocussions for bad decisions. ;)

[Jeff Fiske]

The one thing that I did find quirky was that people are far too forgiving. You can deny them basic things, starve their families, and they're still not mad enough! :p On this, I must agree with Hexagonian. You're often forgiven too much for your errors and there aren't enough reprocussions for bad decisions. ;)

But that is spoken out of a modern perspective. On a bad day in Egypt, they were still better off than 95% of the human population.

Perhaps, more importantly, it was ingrained into every person what their role in egyptian society was. Corvee was how things were actually done, and to server Pharaoh was as everyday as taxes are today. Who knows what they actually expected from their leaders? We can only speculate.

I am by no means using this as a way out, just an interesting comment on early history.

[Azeem]

It would have been nice if you added some "evil edicts," but it's a little too late for that now. :)

[hexagonian]

Good to hear official acknowledgemet of the concerns and issues, and it is nice that you are not hiding from it either.


If we had another six months on it, I think it would have been cool to have riots, or segments of the population that could have enraged other segments, creating a tipping point. This was far more difficult to implement than we originally thought it would, hence the comment about six months. Also, you can add that more ‘evil edicts’ involving your military forces could have been interesting...But we live and we learn.
Wel, you have another year before the release of Caeser 4

...counts on fingers...hmmm, 12 is greater than 6...should hopefully be enough time to put these dynamics into the game system...




Perhaps, more importantly, it was ingrained into every person what their role in egyptian society was. Corvee was how things were actually done, and to server Pharaoh was as everyday as taxes are today. Who knows what they actually expected from their leaders? We can only speculate.
Probably true of Egyptian society. As a general rule, Egypt was very stable, in relation to other civs of the times. That would mean that you could use natural disasters as the catalyst for problems, and structural dangers for buildings, similar to what was in Pharaoh.

And you do not need to have actual rebellions against Pharaoh as the main danger if people are unhappy - stuff like a high crime rate that actually steals a lot of your food and goods throughout your city, vandalism of existing shrines and buildings causing you to rebuild them, and plagues that empty your cities of people and cause the employment to suffer would also do the trick.

The goal is not necessarily gut your city every time you have a problem, but it is to create tangible problems that cost you resources, decreased efficiency, and time - and becomes worse the longer you ignore the problem or do not deal with it.

Rome...that's a different story. The danger of rioting would fit into historical evidence.

[MarkDuffy]

That would mean that you could use natural disasters as the catalyst for problems, and structural dangers for buildings, similar to what was in Pharaoh.

Believe it or not, Hexagonian, this exact point was made by me early in my COTN travels & posted here on this forum at the time. Anything to destroy large sections of Pretty cities & make them rebuild while angry. :eek: And earthquakes/lava that made them change their plans by creating no-build zones.

Yes, I AM evil.

The COTN Cultists at the time told me I was crazy.

(OK, so they were correct, but for different reasons :D )

~ ~ ~

Jeff & TM, see post (http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=69105&postcount=29).

[hexagonian]

The COTN Cultists at the time told me I was crazy.
The thing is, I do not see myself becoming a CotN cultist - given the choice... ;) and it looks like I have to hope for C4.

No indication of an CotN Xpack from TM to fix the problems either...

[sitearm]

Hexagonian, Vic_4, Others: If you could have a CotN "enhancement release", what specifically would you like included?

It should be specific and feasible within the current game engine investment... like we had a budget of 100 Developer Work Hours to invest, for example, and that's all.

Example: Remove the ability of Craftsmen and Laborers to make their own bread so that cities are harder to maintain. (specific)

NonExample: Make it harder. (too broad)

Disclaimer: This is speculative research only! TM has not agreed to do any of this!

No indication of an CotN Xpack from TM to fix the problems either...

[Azeem]

The one thing that I've asked for since beta - the ability to be evil. :D I'd like evil edicts such as a "Martial Law" edict where protestors are removed from the streets and forced to return to work by guards (but people will resent you greatly). :) Having disasters and animals that do more than just stand around, waiting to be killed, would also be nice.

[sitearm]

What kind of disasters? For example, when there is a "disease" message, do you want a random 10% of all citizens immediately removed from your game? When the Nile has an excess inundation, do you want a random 10% of all buildings within 20 tiles of the river to be destroyed whether they're on floodplain or not? What would you specifically want to "code" into the game?

The one thing that I've asked for since beta - the ability to be evil. :D I'd like evil edicts such as a "Martial Law" edict where protestors are removed from the streets and forced to return to work by guards (but people will resent you greatly). :) Having disasters and animals that do more than just stand around, waiting to be killed, would also be nice.

[Azeem]

A random of 10% of the population being wiped out by plague, maybe. Also, there could be construction accidents where the pyramid loses some of the limestone set there and some workers get killed or injured. Those surviving would be very angry at Pharaoh. This, of course, should be offset by a slightly higher birthrate. :) Or maybe a "bureaucratic corruption" event in which a scribe gets caught "borrowing" some of your treasury - you lose one scribe (to exile or execution ;) ) and you lose about 10 to 20 percent of your treasury.

[hexagonian]

Off the top of my head...

Extremely high floods that will destroy farmhouses and village huts, and also drown people, so new ones would have to come out of a (potential) reduced villager pool.

Hailstorms destroying crops. You may think you have a good crop coming...then wham!!!

Bad water will kill people.

Vagrants that would rob and vandalize.

Invaders that destroy buildings instead of robbing.

And yes, craftmen and government workers could not creat bread. Bakers have to have a purpose...and it is altogether too easy to keep the populace fat and happy.

Same with funeral needs. More clamoring from the people if tombs are not provided.

Brick and possibly resource (limestone, basalt) cost for all non-prestige beautification items.

Certain common and lux goods only availabe through trade.

Quality of roads increase walking speed.

Reduced walking radius for all citizens to meet their needs. (this would require substantial playtesting to get it right)

Maps that force a player to spread out and decentralizize. (this is a big one for me) Related to this, you have to clear land with actual laborers. So trees will have to be removed by a labor crew in order to put a building on it.

I'm sure I could come up with more, but it's 12:30 AM. ;)

[MarkDuffy]

A start:

Bakery bug ~ Only farmers, nobles, Palace make bread.

Pharaoh death bug ~ You need active mortuary AND tomb. Don't have them both ~ No Tomb for Pharaoh HUGE hit. No changing Priest job. Too late. No grace period. Zero prestige & it goes negative. No exceptions.

Exchange bug You have to have an active exchange or it doesn't work.

Wares bug No wares, upset. I mean upset. This alert icon is a joke.

Townhome evolution bug How about a reason for upgrade instead of just time. Like imported stuff like monkeys. WM stuff.

Prestige decay bug Everything goes to zero. No exceptions. Yes, this means Palace also.

delete bug All deleted populated buildings produce vagrants. No emigration. You delete a soldier's tent, you get three vagrants.

delete vagrant bug Try to delete them & they only get hostile. They do not emmigrate, nor take a job. they DO move to a new location, though.

Noble townhome bug Lots of townhomes is cheating. Do something about this. Like four for free, then they cost 2000 food each.

Counting Scribe bug Only food you get is from counted fields. All the rest goes to farmers, Nobles & Palace.

Magic Priest bug Eliminate it. You screw up, you lose.

Class dissatisfaction bug Why? Eliminate it. Make individual educated leave easier. It stays unpopulated longer. Delete an unpopulated dissatisfied educated home? Lose prestige.

Attention TM: My question has been answered. This thread has now changed focus. You have my permission to move it to the COTN section. Your choice, at your pleasure. Thank You! :)

[Thucydides]

Thats a pretty interesting list Hexagonian... and great going for a midnight list!

[vic_4]

I would add more military control, invasions worth their name and laborers to be attached to a specific supervisor and not going from a side to the opposite side of the map.
Obviously a new campaign.

[hexagonian]

A start:
Bakery bug
.
.
.

Good suggestions.

You know Mark, you could have saved yourself a lot of trouble if you had agreed with me from the start... ;)

[MarkDuffy]

You know Mark, you could have saved yourself a lot of trouble if you had agreed with me from the start... ;)

But my point with you was always to get you to play the game, my friend.

COTN is a GREAT game! :)

How's Abu? :D

[wodinoneeye]

The one thing that I did find quirky was that people are far too forgiving. You can deny them basic things, starve their families, and they're still not mad enough! :p On this, I must agree with Hexagonian. You're often forgiven too much for your errors and there aren't enough reprocussions for bad decisions. ;)



The overthrows criteria should be based on actions that Pharaoh takes instead of acts of nature which happen frequently (such that even Pharaoh in his 'godhood' historicly hadnt been able to stop -- floods etc..).

Losing too many battles (might have been more common in COTN if there was a tighter time constraint for preparations and major attacks happening whether the player sent an army or not).

City running short of food, when there are several avenues of obtaining a regular supply (ie- not having backups to the cities agriculture - trade deals, coercing the Nomes for supplies ...)

Cult temple being botched (taking too long to dedicate).

Not having ANY tomb ready when pharaoh dies (maybe past the first one or a certain minimum number of years for the first)...

Too many raids with the city being unprotected...

The player should get adaquate warnings that things arent going well (be given many chances to fix the problem....)