Actual Engineering In Roman Times

[prof786]

okay this where we all can talk about the things mentioned in the title

the design process
construction sciences
materials
civil engineering
planning (any kind out there)
manual drafting
drafting tools
construction equipments and mechanisms
anything else that comes up

so say anything you want. or come up with some research. i'll try to do that myself this time.

[Thucydides]

Great idea for a thread, Prof. I will give it some thought as well... and post some ideas later. :)

[Thucydides]

The Pharus or lighthouse was known before the Romans, famously the lighthouse at Alexandria, one of the seven great wonders of the Ancient World.

Pliny mentions the light-houses of Ostia and Ravenna, and says that there were similar towers at many other places. They are represented on the medals of Apamea and other maritime cities. The name of Pharos was given to them in allusion to that at Alexandria, which was the model for their construction. The pharos of Brundusium, for example, was, like that of Alexandria, an island with a light-house upon it. Suetonius mentions another pharos at Capreae.

The 'standard' Roman Pharus would have been about 12-15 metres high with the top forming a byre for the warning or guiding bonfire.

[Thucydides]

The cochlea (or snail) was used to signify screws. The Romans used screws for a variety of pruposes such as oil presses. The screw invented by Archimedes to raise water was a form of cochlea.

[prof786]

Romans built two types of aqueducts:
-Atmospheric pressure aqueducts brought water over arches around the hills, drilling mountains, running on bridges and ditches, viaductes and earth platforms to maintain the regular downflow even if the distance became very long.
-Hydrostatic pressure aqueducts brought water pipelines, to surmount gradients and to put water in distributions system under-ground in the cities.
There were plants with supplying, transportation, and assembling of thousands tons of lead pipes and thousands of bronze valves.

[prof786]

i found this info form this real long url (http://ancienthistory.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=ancienthistory&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.novanet.it%2Fcom%2Fpersonale%2 Ftogliard%2Fnemi%2Feng_in_e.htm).

it's got these short segments about pipes, fittings, valves, pumps, etc.

[Keith]

Here's a PDF file that discusses the use of dropshafts, steep chutes, and cascades in the Roman aqueduct system. It is very technical and detailed and even has a chart that shows the flow rates of the various aqueducts in Rome, France, and Germany.

Hydraulics of Roman Aqueducts: Steep Chutes, Cascades, and Dropshafts (http://www.uq.edu.au/~e2hchans/reprints/aja_200.pdf)

Also:
Some Hydraulics of Roman Aqueducts. Myths, Fables, Realities. A Hydraulician's perspective (http://www.uq.edu.au/~e2hchans/rom_aq.html)
The Water Supply of Constantinople (http://longwalls.ncl.ac.uk/WaterSupply.htm)
The Roman Aqueduct of Metz (http://www.ac-nancy-metz.fr/ia57/jussy/netsco/English/accueil.htm)

[prof786]

would you possibly have some helpful links in your SPQR thread Keith? that would help.

[Keith]

I just added these links to it and if you look up from the post of these new links you'll find a few more about aqueducts. I've made several postings in that thread so not all links are in the big list at the top. If I have the time I'll try to add them all to the big list.

[prof786]

i found these from keith's SPQR thread:

this webpage has images and texts on a model of rome with numerous structures included by jacques plassard
Scale Model of Rome (http://www.maquettes-historiques.net/P5.html)

[prof786]

another one from keith's SPQR thread.
david moore wrote about the roman pantheon and its importance due to the fact that it was made out of the roman concrete. thus, it stands till this day.
here's a good excerpt of the q&a:

Q 3. How did the Romans mix their concrete? I originally had visions of thousands of Celts, Saxon, and other slaves mixing concrete with their feet. That doesn't seem practical - it would be too hard on the slaves. The Romans seem like practical people. Could it be they had "engines" that mixed the stuff? I have visions of a great container which shifts back and forth on a giant fulcrum moved by oxen or slaves. Did they have a "Cement mixers Guild?" I'm just guessing. How did they mix their concrete? (Richard) [Top]

A 3. This is a very good question, and one which many authors get wrong. Many authors imply that the Romans "poured" concrete the way we currently do, but offer no idea on what mechanisms they might have used to do it. A fundamental thesis of The Roman Pantheon: The Triumph of Concreteis that the Romans did not place concrete or "pour" it the way we do ours. Using texts from the original Roman authors and the few pictures we have of their construction methods, the book says that the Romans mixed the cement mortar for their concrete like they would mortar for bricks - in a mortar box with a special hoe. A key element of the process is that they kept the moisture content low, so that the mortar was thicker than we are used to, resulting, in essence, in what we would call a "no slump" mixture. If you accept this thesis, then the Romans couldn't have "poured" their concrete even if they wanted to - it was too thick!

They then hauled the mortar to the wall in baskets. They laid down a layer of rocks (aggregate) by hand, and then pounded the mortar into the rocks using a special tool called a "beetle" to get all the air out and make close compaction with aggregate and the layer below. So, the Romans did not mix or pour concrete the way we do, they, in essence, mixed the mortar and aggregate (resulting in concrete) "just in time" right in the forms themselves.

We claim that these two elements of this process, low water content and close compaction, were part of the reason why Roman concrete has lasted so long, in comparison with our concrete which sometimes doesn't last more than a few years without cracking. We have to use a higher water content because, for economic reasons, we use automated machinery to mix our mortar and aggregate offsite to make concrete and then bring it to the site and pour it into forms that contain steel reinforcing. The mixture must be fluid enough to be worked by the machinery and flow around all the rebar and forms with minimal manual interaction. See the reprint of David Moore's article The Riddle of Ancient Roman Concrete which lays out these details and how we are using methods similar to the Romans in Roller Compacted Concrete (RCC) in the building of dams. [Top]

got this from http://www.romanconcrete.com/index.htm.

this site is also worth checking for an overall story of roman concrete
ROMAN CONCRETE (http://id-archserve.ucsb.edu/arthistory/152k/concrete.html)

[prof786]

here's a few more...from keith's sqpr list of course

this one's got work cited for more info
The Construction & Makeup (http://www.unc.edu/courses/rometech/public/content/transport/Adam_Pawluk/Contruction_and_Makeup_of_.htm)
hydraulic design of roman aqueducts (http://traianus.rediris.es/textos/hydraulic_in.htm)

and this one's really interesting w/ lots of diagrams of aqueducts mechanisms
HOW ROMAN AQUEDUCTS WORKED (http://f_pollett.tripod.com/roma-aq2.htm)

[prof786]

i just learnt this in my class lecture today.

How did the Romans Construct Benches:

Benches were constructed usually around aesthetic areas where people can sit and relax and do whatever. Some benches have also been found around buildings, mostly insulae type townhouses.

The Opus Reticulatum pattern. The front face was tiled with flat stone slabs sided with conic tufa studdings. For longevity, the core of the bench was stuffed with compressed rubble, dirt, debris, garbage, etc. Whatever they could find.

Besides Opus Reticulatum, there are other methods too which I haven't learnt about. But I did find this link that explains briefly the Opus Reticulatum and other construction techniques used by the Romans.

Opus Reticulatum (http://sights.seindal.dk/sight/328_Opus_Reticulatum.html)

http://sights.seindal.dk/img/large/9981.jpg

[prof786]

keith's spqr links keep my thread alive for i borrow them to show them here.....too

this time i found one on trebuchets and how they function. we had to build one as a physics project so my friend and i designed the biggest one that year. named it "the beast."

this link is actually an online store selling model artillerly kits with some historic information on the side. got also some diagrams for you visual cravers.

how a trabuchet catapult works (http://www.redstoneprojects.com/trebuchetstore/how_a_trebuchet_catapult_works.html)

[Thucydides]

This is interesting stuff Prof, keep it coming. :)

[prof786]

This is interesting stuff Prof, keep it coming. :)

it's so strange that it's only you, keith (indirectly), and i that only post here :D .

[Kiya]

it's so strange that it's only you, keith (indirectly), and i that only post here :D .

Well, there is Thucy too. Perhaps it's you who have some 'hard' facts about building and structures in Roman times. The rest of us like to read about it.
And I would love to build what ever TM will offer us in C4. :)

[prof786]

i did say that thucydides is a contributor to the thread.
as for my part, you know my sources.
and besides, i just don't post for people to read, they can also talk about whatever interests them in the thread.
the later of which i have yet to see.

[Kiya]

i did say that thucydides is a contributor to the thread.
as for my part, you know my sources.
and besides, i just don't post for people to read, they can also talk about whatever interests them in the thread.
the later of which i have yet to see.

I probably misunderstood (wouldn't be the first time :eek: :D ), but anyway TM will read this. That is good isn't it? :)

[maucat]

i did say that thucydides is a contributor to the thread.
as for my part, you know my sources.
and besides, i just don't post for people to read, they can also talk about whatever interests them in the thread.
the later of which i have yet to see.

I am just in awe of your unlimited and superior knowledge. They also serve who only stand and wait (John Milton - "On his blindness") Maybe I should put that on the 'quotes' thread' :)

[Thucydides]

I am just in awe of your unlimited and superior knowledge. They also serve who only stand and wait (John Milton - "On his blindness") Maybe I should put that on the 'quotes' thread' :)

I can't speak for Prof. My impression is that he is keen to learn more from other people on this topic, not to claim that he knows everything already.

I think it was Wilde (happy birthday for today Oscar!!!) that said, "I am not young enough to know everything." Certainly the older I get the more I realise I don't know!

[maucat]

I can't speak for Prof. My impression is that he is keen to learn more from other people on this topic, not to claim that he knows everything already.

I think it was Wilde (happy birthday for today Oscar!!!) that said, "I am not young enough to know everything." Certainly the older I get the more I realise I don't know!

I wasn't being facetious Thucy (honest). :o I was being quite sincere when I said that I was in awe of your (plural) joint knowledge. What I meant by the quote "They also serve...." was that some of us (me in particular), whilst having no knowledge of the subject to make a valid contribution to the discussion take great pleasure in just reading and digesting what you and others have to say on various erudite matters. :)

[Schmophit]

I was being quite sincere when I said that I was in awe of your (plural) joint knowledge. What I meant by the quote "They also serve...." was that some of us (me in particular), whilst having no knowledge of the subject to make a valid contribution to the discussion take great pleasure in just reading and digesting what you and others have to say on various erudite matters. :)Me too, I am constantly amazed at the things written on the forums and other people's knowledge, so I read everything and in doing so, gain more knowledge myself....so Thank You Guys for educating someone who admits to being rather fluffy (I am a big furball :D ).

[prof786]

I can't speak for Prof. My impression is that he is keen to learn more from other people on this topic, not to claim that he knows everything already.

I think it was Wilde (happy birthday for today Oscar!!!) that said, "I am not young enough to know everything." Certainly the older I get the more I realise I don't know!

my reason to start this thread?
some posts i saw scattered around had very technical language concerning civil structures and others of its kind. thus i assumed that people were interested in this kind of stuff.

that's why i started the thread. oh how wrong was i! only three people in the forum that give info. but i thought atleast people might read and discuss them. didn't see them either.

wow this is really boring....

[wodinoneeye]

my reason to start this thread?
some posts i saw scattered around had very technical language concerning civil structures and others of its kind. thus i assumed that people were interested in this kind of stuff.

that's why i started the thread. oh how wrong was i! only three people in the forum that give info. but i thought atleast people might read and discuss them. didn't see them either.

wow this is really boring....


Civic works = Bureaucracy.


I wonder if they have a building for 'Bureaucratic Offices' yet for C4....

[prof786]

okay it's been a long time thus it's time to post something new.
i'm working on it now i'll try to get it up by tonight.

[prof786]

Marcus Vitruvius Pollio was a prominent architect of roman antiquity. his "ten books on architecture" consisted of the following sections:

Landscape architecture
Construction materials
Temples (Part 1)
Temples (Part 2)
Public places: square, meeting hall, theatre, park, gymnasium, harbour
Private dwellings
Finishes and colours
Water supply
Sundials and clocks
Mechanical engineering

he is important because his treatise has inspired a number of antiquity and medieval, from gothic to renaissance, masons and architects to make civic structures that were sustainable and clossal...

[Thucydides]

Finishes and colours
Sundials and clocks


Thats interesting Prof, I will have to look him up. These two books in particular sound promising. Have you read them?

[prof786]

Thats interesting Prof, I will have to look him up. These two books in particular sound promising. Have you read them?

i never read the ten books for i just learnt about them in my lectures.
that's another ten books then i must add to my reading list:D

[prof786]

got four this time....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitruvius
this one is from wikipedia that gives a short biography of vitruvius.

http://www.lih.gre.ac.uk/histhe/vitruvius.htm
vitruvius' complete treatise titled "ten books in architecture." possibly the first treatise that later generations referenced to.

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/george/vitruvius.html
gives ten images from vitruvius' original manuscript full of diagrams and latin texts.

http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi580.htm
my best one yet. it's a transcript from an audio commentary by dr. john leinhard at the university of houston for his show "engines of our ingenuity." he takes a more critical look at vitruvius and his treatise. about his sources and what else is in the treatise besides the subject matter.

[Thucydides]

I have only had time so far to peruse Vitruvius's text on home decorating but I was heartened to see that the Romans used a range of colours to paint the interiors of their house. Looking at the way that the pigments were prepared for the paints the paints used would have been mostly very fugitive (meaning fade over time), so it is little wonder that few traces are left on the building ruins left today.

The upshot of all this? More colours please in Caesar IV! (smile, I know I have said as much elsewhere, but, as Sitearm has often said, repetition can be a good thing at times).

[prof786]

i want to dedicate these next couple of threads to bridges. about how roman bridges looked. possibly the design process. more on that later.

[prof786]

getting an aerial shot, you can see the bridges connecting the land massess across the tiber:
http://www.maquettes-historiques.net/R234a.jpghttp://www.maquettes-historiques.net/cartea11.jpg
from http://www.maquettes-historiques.net/P11.html

[prof786]

i found an overview of one roman bridge: the pons fabricus. it is one of the bridges that connects the island on tiber to the mainland. though no official designs of the bridge have been yet found, this image is still good:

http://www.unc.edu/courses/rometech/public/content/transport/Josh_Hargraves/PONS1.GIFhttp://www.unc.edu/courses/rometech/public/content/transport/Josh_Hargraves/diagram%202.jpg

and guess what, the online paper got references to vitruvius.
here's the url
http://www.unc.edu/courses/rometech/public/content/transport/Josh_Hargraves/josh2.htm#sur

[prof786]

roman bridges are works of masonry.
chinese bridges were mostly made out of wood.

most roman bridges are multispanned--having multiple arches.
fewer chinese bridges are multispanned.

single spanned roman bridges are short.
chinese ones are more longer across.

guess that the chinese knew how to build arch bridges better than the romans did. and even those out of wood.

[Keith]

However, many Roman bridges still stand and are in use today, while I think many of the original wooden Chinese bridges have been rebuilt or are gone.

I watched a program once on the local PBS channel where they built a wooden arch bridge over a river in a Chinese city. It was one of those types of programs where they were interested in methods used to construct such a bridge. I wish I could recall the name of the program and the city they built the bridge in.

[prof786]

i remember that show. i watched it too, in a physics class though. to build a popsicle bridge that must not collapse under load. ours was a truss bridge, not that good. someone else's truss bridge was double beamed and the strongest one. held about 200+ lbs.

about that show:
NOVA | Secrets of Lost Empire | China Bridge
this is where a group tries to build a rainbow bridge out of wooden braces over a river near Suzhou, China. all they had was an ancient picture to reference to.

I LOVE NOVA!!!!
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempires/china/

[Marius]

caesarea maritima (search it on google or whatever)

Romans developed a very durable form of Underwater(Hydraulic) Concrete that would set in salt water locations to make harbor breakwaters. I believe it was also used in Ostia. The essential ingredient was a volcanic ash called "pozzolana".

I can just picture my slaves trying to dodge lava flows while gathering the volcanic ash.

[Thucydides]

roman bridges are works of masonry.
chinese bridges were mostly made out of wood

Many Roman bridges were made out of wood. The durability of stone means that is what is left today.

[prof786]

Many Roman bridges were made out of wood. The durability of stone means that is what is left today.

yeah. not seen enough chinese wooden bridges either. except for the one in the pbs nova series. i posted that up there if you want to check that out.

[Fishrob]

this thread is of educational benefit to everyone. The vast knowledge what Roman Empire had to offer like central heating (http://www.romans-in-britain.org.uk/inv_central_heating.htm)or hypercaust is amazing, just imagine how far advanced the world would be today if there was no dark age!

[prof786]

underground heating as a substitute for ventilators? nice.

[prof786]

engineers need measurements. roman engineers had already devised a standard seet of measurements for themselves to get by.

the measurements in roman times (http://www.romans-in-britain.org.uk/arl_measurements.htm)

[prof786]

google is your friend. this online directory is expansive. full of greek and roman references talking of acknowldged personalities and concepts/applications. like a directory.

keith this shall be a good addition to your SPQR link.

graeco-roman sciences and tech (http://www.swan.ac.uk/classics/staff/ter/grst/Home%20Page%20G&RS&T.htm)

[prof786]

it seems as if i'm having a hard time coming up with more info for stuff like this. if anyone has something interesting to post concerning the subject, they are welcome. as for me, i'm still searching. are you out there tilted mill?