Limits of the Roman World

[Thucydides]

This thread is for posts providing credible thoughts about the limits of the known world to the Romans.

[Thucydides]

This is a speculative thread that shall work backwards in time.

When the first Norwegians/Danes ('Vikings') reached Iceland in the 9th century they encountered "some Christians" that they then killed or drove away. These Christians are believed to have been Irish monks that established religious retreats there.

In the chronicles of St Brendan, the Irish monk, he writes of discovering hell in the form of an enormous volvano. St Brendan is a contender for being the Irish discoverer of Iceland, and the volcano is thought to be Mount Hekla.

Now here is the interesting part.

When St Brendan discovered the volcano he writes of encountering a savage man that ran down to the shore to challenge his ship.

Who was this man?

Could Iceland have been the "Thule" that Pytheas wrote about in the 4th century B.C.? Could he have been the last reminant of a Roman settlement in Iceland?

Ok it is very unlikely but it does make for a tantilising mystery.

Iceland makes a natural stepping stone to the Americas. And the Norwegians/Danes did not take long to leap from Iceland to Greenland and then onto Vinland (North America). There is a credible theory that holds that Columbus struck out for North America having heard the old Icelandic stories of a fertile land to the West (Colombus visited Iceland as a young man on a ship).

It is tempting to think the Romans could have struck Westwards in a similar manner if they were enterprising enough.

And it is interesting to note that the Romans knew of the Canary Islands.

[King Faticus]

Sorry ahead of time for this long post I was simply going to set up a link to this site but it wouldn't work so here is the entire site

History Mystery: Ancients in America
Long before Columbus sailed to North America, this hemisphere may have been visited by other Europeans, ancient Romans, Chinese and Japanese - even the ancient Egyptians!

In fourteen hundred and ninety-two,
Columbus sailed the ocean blue...

Many of us learned that rhyme, part of a longer history poem, when being taught in school that Christopher Columbus discovered America. Although nothing can be taken away from Columbus' daring voyage, he certainly was not the first to arrive on the shores of the Americas. For one thing, there were already people here - many Native American nations inhabited what later became North and South America and even the Caribbean islands where Columbus landed. Columbus probably wasn't even the first "white man" to make it here. It's fairly well documented that Icelander Leif Ericsson successfully sailed to North America in the year 1000 - almost 500 years prior to Columbus's voyage.

In fact, there's a growing amount of proof suggesting that a lot of the familiar history of human exploration and "discovery" by our ancestors as we were taught it may be quite wrong. There is hard evidence of ancient civilizations making their mark in places where, according to traditionally accepted history, they just shouldn't be. Here's an overview of some of the most remarkable and fascinating cases.

Greeks and Romans in the New World

* Coins:
o Roman coins have been found in Venezuela and Maine.
o Roman coins were found in Texas at the bottom of an Indian mound at Round Rock. The mound is dated at approximately 800 AD.
o In 1957 by a small boy found a coin in a field near Phenix City, Alabama, from Syracuse, on the island of Sicily, and dating from 490 B.C.
o In the town of Heavener, Oklahoma, another out-of-place coin was found in 1976. Experts identified it as a bronze tetradrachm originally struck in Antioch, Syria in 63 A.D. and bearing the profile of the emperor Nero.
o In 1882, a farmer in Cass County, Illinois picked up bronze coin later identified as a coin of Antiochus IV, one of the kings of Syria who reigned from 175 B.C. to 164 B.C., and who is mentioned in the Bible.
* Pottery: Roman pottery was unearthed in Mexico that, according to its style, has been dated to the second century A.D.
* Inscriptions:
o In 1966, a man named Manfred Metcalf stumbled upon a stone in the state of Georgia that bears an inscription that is very similar to ancient writing from the island of Crete called "Cretan Linear A and B writing."
o In the early 1900s, Bernardo da Silva Ramos, a Brazilian rubber-tapper working in the Amazon jungle, found many large rocks on which was inscribed more than 2,000 ancient scripts about the "Old World."
o Near Rio de Janeiro, high on a vertical wall of rock - 3,000 feet up - is an inscription that reads: 'Tyre, Phoenicia, Badezir, Firstborn of Jethbaal..." and dated to the middle of the ninth century B.C.
o Near Parahyba, Brazil, an inscription on Phoenician has been translated, in part, as: "We are sons of Canaan from Sidon, the city of the king. Commerce has cast us on this distant shore, a land of mountains. We set [sacrificed] a youth for the exalted gods and goddesses in the nineteenth year of Hiram, our mighty king. We embarked from Ezion-Geber into the Red Sea and voyaged with ten ships. We were at sea together for two years around the land belonging to Ham [Africa] but were separated by a storm [lit. 'from the hand of Baal'], and we were no longer with our companions. So we have come here, twelve men and three women, on a... shore which I, the Admiral, control. But auspiciously may the gods and goddesses favor us!"
o The Kensington Stone, discovered in Kensington, Minnesota in 1898 contains an inscription describing an expedition of Norsemen into the interior of what is now North America. It's estimated that this expedition took place in the 1300s.
o In 1980, P.M. Leonard and J.L. Glenn, from the Hogle Zoological Gardens, Salt Lake City, visited a rock outcropping in Colorado that was reputed to be inscribed with "peculiar markings." Leonard and Glenn believe they are excellent examples of Consainne Ogam writing - a type ascribed to ancient Celts. One of the many inscriptions was translated as: "Route Guide: To the west is the frontier town with standing stones as boundary markers."
o A fist-sized, round stone was found during the early 1890s in an cemetery near Nashville, Tennessee. Its front was inscribed with symbols thought to be Libyan, pre-100 A.D. style. It translates as: "The colonists pledge to redeem."
* Pictures: An experienced botanist has identified plants in an ancient fresco painting as a pineapple and a specific species of squash - both native to the Americas. Yet the fresco is in the Roman city of Pompeii.
* Statues: In 1933, in a burial at Calixtlahuaca, Mexico, archaeologist José García Payón discovered a small carved head with "foreign" features in an undisturbed burial site. It was later identified by anthropologist Robert Heine-Geldern as "unquestionably" from the Hellenistic-Roman school of art and suggested a date of "around AD 200."
* Structures: Many stone chambers dot the New England countryside and most archaeologists insist they are all potato cellars built long ago by farmers. Others argue that they are too sophisticated for such a mundane application. One, is built into a hillside at Upton, Massachusetts, has sophisticated corbelling that follows they style of Irish and Iberic chambers. It's theorized that it was really built by Europeans around 700 AD - long before the Leif Eiriksson.
* Ships: In 1886, the remains of a shipwreck was found in Galveston Bay, Texas. Its construction is typically Roman.
* Toys: A doll made of wood and wax was found deep in a "Well of Sacrifice" at Chichén Itzá, Mexico, on which is written Roman script.
* Tombs: In the Mayan ruins of Palenque, a stone sarcophagus was found that is very much in the style of the ancient Phoenicians.

[Thucydides]

gosh... now I will not be at peace until I hunt down all these claims King Factus!

As the saying goes, "History is a distillation of rumours."

[Keith]

I wonder what the source of those claims he posted was.

[King Faticus]

I know they sound a little far fetched (and personally i dont think there were any established cities) but most of the information I found at the site were backed up by none other than several high school histoy books and a documentary i saw some where... Usually I dont trust the internet as a reliable source of information but most of the sites had consistant claims
The link wont work for some reason so I'll tell you how I found the site
First I read the thread... that goes without saying then I remembered somthing in my old history books that mentioned Phonetian trade colonies in america
and several indian mounds with roman coins found in them. Though I couldn't remember the mounds name (I seem to not remember alot I knew it was in texas though) so I went to Google and typed Indian mound "roman coins"
and found the site (along with others) that made these claims (it should be the second hit) Although It could be a hoax I thought you would find it interesting anyways It is a nice thought

[Keith]

I was just wondering, because I had never heard of them before.

Since most Roman ships tended to stay in the Med, I would have to wonder what any roman ships would be doing out beyond the "pillars of Hercules" in the Atlantic ocean. I could possibly see their knowledge of the Canary Islands either through firsthand discovery or second hand knowledge passed on by other seafaring traders. The Canaries aren't too far out to sea from NW Africa.

As for all those Roman coins popping up, I'd have to do some more looking around before I swallowed the most of those stories.

[Thucydides]

I was just wondering, because I had never heard of them before.

Since most Roman ships tended to stay in the Med, I would have to wonder what any roman ships would be doing out beyond the "pillars of Hercules" in the Atlantic ocean. I could possibly see their knowledge of the Canary Islands either through firsthand discovery or second hand knowledge passed on by other seafaring traders. The Canaries aren't too far out to sea from NW Africa.

As for all those Roman coins popping up, I'd have to do some more looking around before I swallowed the most of those stories.

I will do some digging as well. We know the Romans knew of the Canary Islands, and that they sailled down the West coast of Africa. We also know that some 40 Roman ships plied between Egypt and India on trade (and that they reached upwards of 1500 tonnes in displacement). It is not inconceivable that a Roman ship could have been blown off course from the West coast of Africa to the Americas given the direction of the trade winds. But it still seems highly improbably given the lack of literary evidence so I am sceptical. Still there is a lot about history that is unknown to us.

[wodinoneeye]

One difference between Columbus and those before (except maybe the Vikings at Nova Scotia or fishermen going to the Grand Banks) was that after he ran into the New World (he was actually looking for a way to get to Asia originally) he was able to get back and then go again (and again and again .... the second trips fleet had 17 ships and a thousand men) and soon that new place was crawling with Spaniards.

Much different from some accidental trips made by others previously (how many of those listed have been officially confirmed as 'proof'??)

[King Faticus]

I did a little more digging and found this site it seems more "trustable" than some of the others I found
http://www.answers.com/topic/pre-columbian-trans-oceanic-contact

[King Faticus]

(how many of those listed have been officially confirmed as 'proof'??)

So Far as I can tell they are all real but their significance is debatable (they could afterall just be merchants whos ships got blown off coarse an route to africa) as you said they prolly didnt ever return to their beloved rome. this might explain why there aren't written records of it

I personally don't want to lean too far one way or another It is possible, there is so much history we don't yet know. and yet unlikely
also the fact that no records seem to exist supports the Idea that they didn't classical historians are reliable source and wouldn't overlook an entirely new continent...would they? Again I only added this because it would create an interesting conversation.

[imhotep3147]

I was just wondering, because I had never heard of them before......As for all those Roman coins popping up, I'd have to do some more looking around before I swallowed the most of those stories.

Another way to check out some of these claims is to google up Clive Cussler and see if you can find his research materials for when he wrote "Treasure"....it dealt with this theory of Romans having reached the US waaaayyyy back when. Although the actual book is pure fiction, he usually writes about subjects that have some merit. Chances are, if he's writing about Romans in the Americas, there's some kind of evidence somewhere that's plausible. :D

[imhotep3147]

Sorry for the double post, here's the link to what looks like the site KingFatcus mentioned....http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa080700a.htm :D

[EmperorJay]

Another way to check out some of these claims is to google up Clive Cussler and see if you can find his research materials for when he wrote "Treasure"....it dealt with this theory of Romans having reached the US waaaayyyy back when. Although the actual book is pure fiction, he usually writes about subjects that have some merit. Chances are, if he's writing about Romans in the Americas, there's some kind of evidence somewhere that's plausible. :D

Going completely off topic here, I want to say that I like his books a lot and that I've read that book as well. I just couldn't remember where I'd read that Romans had been in America, until you mentioned it :) .

[Cartpusher]

I would be skeptical about coins and stones found on the surface by farmers and children. Easily planted, no pun intended. Artifacts in undisturbed burial mounds are another matter, not so easily explained.

...and why climb 3,000 feet up a South American rock face to set up a hoax? That almost has to be real, unless it is a hoax by the discoverer of the site. Can you say "Piltdown Man"?

[King Faticus]

Sorry for the double post, here's the link to what looks like the site KingFatcus mentioned....http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa080700a.htm :D
Hey you got it to work thanks Imhotep3147

[Thucydides]

So lets do a survey of the known limits of the Roman world.

This is what we can confirm based on historical evidence.

The Romans knew about the Baltics and Scandinavia and a country named Thule (most likely Norway).

The Romans knew about the Canary Islands and explored the West coast of Africa.

Nero sent a mission to find the source of the Nile.

The Romans sent an army to punish the Ethiopians for raiding into Egypt.

The Romans sent an invasion force (unsuccessfully) to conquer Sheba (modern day Yemen).

A Roman army captured Iraq (and held it for a couple of years) and stood on the shores of the Red Sea.

The Romans traded regularly with India, and had a sizable trade fleet based out of berenice on the Red Sea.

The Romans knew about China and traded with it along the silk road (in fact roads).

Who would like to add to this list? :)

[imhotep3147]

Didn't the Romans know something of what is now Australia? I could swear I read that somewheres.....Not necessarily that they went there, just that they knew of it. :D

[imhotep3147]

Hey you got it to work thanks Imhotep3147

Yep, unfortunately, the fact that it's a paranormal website probably doesn't bode well for the reliability of the source....but there are other more reputable sources out there I'm sure. As a matter of fact I'll go search for some in a bit. :D


EDIT: Crap.....for some reason I'm not utilizing the edit button today.... :mad: Apologies again for the double post..... :D

[Thucydides]

Didn't the Romans know something of what is now Australia? I could swear I read that somewheres.....Not necessarily that they went there, just that they knew of it. :D


I doubt this myself, but it is noteworthy that Ptolemy's world map shows the Sotuh East Asian peninsular and the South China Sea.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/PtomelyAsiaDetail.jpg

[Thucydides]

Didn't the Romans know something of what is now Australia?

It is noteworthy that Ptolemy's world map shows the South East Asian peninsular and the South China Sea. I am not aware of any record indicating they knew of Australia, but would be interested to hear if there is one.

For those that are interested below is a link to a copy of Ptolemy's maps.

http://dpg.lib.berkeley.edu/webdb/dsheh/heh_brf?CallNumber=HM+1092&Description=&page=1

[Thucydides]

The town of Yongchan in Ganzu claims to have hosted a Roman settlement. The claim is not as far fetched as first seems as it is known that the Chinese 'inherited' over 100 Roman legionaires from the Pathians (who were said to use Roman prisioners as guards on the frontier in central Asia). According to one academic the captured Romans were based at a specially created town called Liqian in what is now Gansu.

The theory regarding the Ganzu rests mainly on tantalising hints found in ancient Chinese historiography, none of which refers specifically to Romans. There is a reference to the use of a "fish-scale formation" by soldiers in Zhizhi's army, which Dubs said described the testudo formation of overlapping shields "made only by Roman soldiers". And Zhizhi's town had a double wooden palisade outside its wall - a type of fortification he said was often used by Romans and not by the Huns. Then there is the name of the town, Liqian, which may have been used at the time to refer to the Roman empire. In 9AD the name of Liqian was changed for a few years to Jielu, which may mean "prisoners captured in storming a city". In the sixth century Liqian ceased to be used as a placename.

And the museum in Yongchen displays the 2000-year old remains of a tall man it claims to be of Caucasian stature. Of course it could all be a clever story aimed at attracting tourists from the West!

But here is another interesting thing. There is a carving in Latin in a cave in Uzbekistan. I have copied below an except from an academic article on the carving.

Of great interest is the recent discovery of a Latin inscription in the Kara-Kamar cave complex in Uzbekistan, near the border with Turkmenistan, to the west of Termez. This is far to the east of the easternmost previously-known Latin inscription from the 1st century CE, which is found some 1,700 km further west, in Azerbaijan.

“The original function of the cave complex is unclear…. However, I believe that the visible features of the complex, and especially its epigraphic data, suggest that at least for a certain period the cave complex served as a Mithraeum.

The walls of Kara-Kamar are covered with numerous inscriptions and drawings, mostly mediaeval and modern, in Arabic, Uzbek and Russian. Three badly damaged Bactrian inscriptions were discovered, overcovered with the later ones….

The Greek and Latin inscriptions were found in a fairly good state of preservation….” Ustinova (2000), p. 172.
It is the Latin inscription is of most interest to us here. It is given as:

PANN
G. REX
AP.LG

The third line of it: AP.LG:

“stands for (XV) Apollinaris Legio. This legion, first formed by Augustus, was moved from Pannonia to Armenia in 62 (Tac. Ann. 25) and stayed there till 66. The Romans then suffered a crashing defeat from the Parthians, who took crowds of captives. In 71, after several campaigns in the East, the XV legion returned to Pannonia and stayed there (with a break during 86-105 due to the Dacian wars) until in 114 Trajan transferred it to Satala, in Cappadocia (Cass. Dio LV. 23), where it was still stationed at the beginning of the V century….

Thus, the XV Apollinaris legio was present in Armenia and Cappadocia for a few years in the last third of the first century, and from 114 it was stationed there permanently. In a situation of the unending war with Parthia numerous Roman soldiers must have fallen captives at the hands of the Parthians; some of these prisoners could have arrived as far as Bactria (as it has happened, for instance, in 54 BC, when after the defeat at Carrhae ten thousand Roman prisoners were moved by the Parthians to Margiana and put on frontier duty [Plin. Hist. Nat. 6. 18]).

In such a case, line 1 of inscription 2 may be restored as PANN(ONICI), fitting well the history of the XV Apollinaris legio: twice it arrived in Armenia and Cappadocia from Pannonia, and some group (or one man) could have continued to bear the name “Pannonian”. In line 2 the G. is the initial of Gaius. Rex may have been his nickname….

To conclude, it may be suggested that the Kara-Kamar Latin inscriptions, the easternmost known, were incised by soldiers of the XV Apollinaris legio in the second-third centuries AD, and the cave complex itself served perhaps as a Mithraeum.” Ustinova (2000), pp. 176-179.

[Thucydides]

We know from their maps that the Romans had a fairly good knowledge of Ireland, which they called Hibernia.

There have been many finds of Roman goods in Ireland, and some graves that appear to be Roman influenced.

Tactius wrote that Agricola trained an Irish cheiftan with the intent of him establishing a Roman client state in Ireland (a tactic the Romans used with great success in other places). The Legendary first High King of Ireland, Tuathel was supposed to have spent some 20 years as a young man in exile in the Roman Empire. Could Tuathel have established his control over Ireland with the help of the Romans? The poet Juvenal, who also accompanied Agricola during his time in Britain, claims that Roman arms were taken beyond the shores of Ireland.

Certainly the story holds true to what we know of Roman foreign policy. We know that irish raiding parties used to attack Britain, and it would have been sensible policy to dampen these attacks through establishing a client state, or supporting an Irish leader that would have been sympathetic to Rome. It all hangs together quite neatly and credibly.

Here is the wikipedia article on Turathel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuathal_Teachtmhar

And, to cap things off, there is said to be the remains of a Roman fort at Drumanargh north of Dublin. Now wouldn't founding a Roman outpost in Ireland be a fun scenario to play? :) Here are two links about the find.

http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba14/ba14feat.html

http://www.blather.net/articles/romans_debarra.html

[Thucydides]

Pliny wrote of Madeira (the Purple Islands), which was reportedly known to the Phoenecians. The achipelago is quite sizable (alomst 800 km2) with a favourable climate. It is easy to speculate that the islands could have potentially hosted a Roman province. And, if so settled, that the Romans would have eventually discovered the much larger Azores islands (2300 km2) towards the centre of the Altantic.

[imhotep3147]

It is noteworthy that Ptolemy's world map shows the South East Asian peninsular and the South China Sea. I am not aware of any record indicating they knew of Australia, but would be interested to hear if there is one.

Maybe that's what I'm remembering....I knew they had knowledge of something around there. :D :p

[prof786]

This thread is for posts providing credible thoughts about the limits of the known world to the Romans.

did the romans ever consider venturing beyond the straits of giblraltar or they did they simply fear "the edge of the world"?

[Thucydides]

did the romans ever consider venturing beyond the straits of giblraltar or they did they simply fear "the edge of the world"?

Read up Prof, the certainly did! For a start Roman ships plied between their way to Britain.

[prof786]

Read up Prof, the certainly did! For a start Roman ships plied between their way to Britain.

i would read but not now....by my question i meant towards atlantis.

[prof786]

okay i read it. now i know.
i'll broaden my question.
did the romans venture the atlantic ocean?

[Thucydides]

okay i read it. now i know.
i'll broaden my question.
did the romans venture the atlantic ocean?

Only the Eastern rim of the Atlantic. Despite Ptolemy, the Romans would have known from the Greeks that it was possible to cimcumnavigate Africa, but I am unaware of any record indicating the Romans undertook this trip themselves. But the primary reason for Roman seafaring was trade, so on non-trade route there would have been little sea travel. There is no record of the Romans knowning about the Azores or Cape Verde Islands, which indicates that there ships stayed close to shore. The Romans had a good idea of the coasts of ireland and the smaller islands such as the Orkneys. You have seen my speculation on Iceland (and I am really stretching the envelope on that one). But there would have been no obvious reason for the Romans to venture out into the mid-Altantic aside from exploration.

WHere is Atlantis? If it did exist that is a great and unanswered question.

An equally interesting question for me is why did the Romans not settle islands like the Madeira? Was land really so plentiful that there was no need to make the effort.

[prof786]

An equally interesting question for me is why did the Romans not settle islands like the Madeira? Was land really so plentiful that there was no need to make the effort.

i think that that the romans acquired territories for the benefit of trade. that's why they spread themselves across the coastlines of three continents.

[King Faticus]

Although the I cant remember where(bet you never would have guessed that...)
(WHY cant I remember anything!) I have heard somewhere...
that SOME ancient cultures MAY have been aware the world was round err a sphere
Did anybody else hear that?

[Thucydides]

I have heard somewhere... that SOME ancient cultures MAY have been aware the world was round err a sphere

Pythagoros in the 5th century B.C. first proposed that the Earth was round, having observed that the other objects in the sky were spherical. The greeks later proved this mathematically, and the Romans held the same theory as evidenced once again by the maps of Ptolemy. The Greek estimates of the Earth's circumference were almost perfect.

It is the flat earth theory that has been a minority view in history.

[King Faticus]

Good I thought I was a little crazy for a bit

[sitearm]

Great recap of "flat vs. round earth" and "steady state vs. big bang universe" in Big Bang : The Origin of the Universe by Simon Singh. Singh recounts (in summary) that...

Greek "Eratosthenes" (air - ah - TOS - ta - nees)... measured shadows on the ground... from which he figured out the size of the earth... the other Greeks from this... figured out the sizes and distances apart... of the sun and moon... using geometry and thinking... one of the earliest examples... of experimental and theoretical physics... working together... to get an astonishingly accurate result!

Pythagoros in the 5th century B.C. first proposed that the Earth was round, having observed that the other objects in the sky were spherical. The greeks later proved this mathematically, and the Romans held the same theory as evidenced once again by the maps of Ptolemy. The Greek estimates of the Earth's circumference were almost perfect.

It is the flat earth theory that has been a minority view in history.

[wodinoneeye]

Read up Prof, the certainly did! For a start Roman ships plied between their way to Britain.



The Romans supposedly had trading stations (called 'factories') a ways down both coasts of Africa. They certainly sailed along the coast of Spain (Iberia).

[Azeem]

Thucy, in regards to the Romans knowing about SE Asia: you might be interested to know (if you don't already ;) ) that the Roman Empire (along with China and India) was actually an important trading partner in Southeast Asia and the maintenance of a clear passage from the coastal trading centers of ancient Southeast Asian chiefdoms, kingdoms, and "mandalas" was crucial for their success (not to mention survival) as a trading center. Malay trading ships (which carried from 700-800 passengers) also carried Brahmins and Indian merchants throughout the South-Southeast Asia coastal region (thus we have Brahmi artifacts from as far as the Red Sea to the coast of China). Roman coins have been found alongside with Chinese goods and Indian goods in various sites of Southeast Asia. Roman medallions, purchased via trade from India (which traded with Rome as well), dating from the times of Antoninus Pius to Marcus Aurelius, were discovered by French archeologist Malleret in 1944 at the site known as "Oc Eo" at the site of the Fu Nan culture in what is now Vietnam. In fact, trade with Rome even had a stimulus on developments in the region, though in a very indirect way. When China was in a state of disorder, divided again into several different quarreling states after the collapse of the Han Dynasty, causing the disruption of the Silk Road, the state of Wu (in southern China) dispatched emissaries down to Southeast Asia to search for an ocean-based trade route to reach India and ultimately, Rome. They came across the Fu Nan culture at the Mekong River delta and established trading relations with them, as the Fu Nan culture held great influence over trading routes in the region, thereby enabling the Fu Nan culture to prosper for several centuries. :) Interesting how even in the ancient times, there was a bit of interconnectedness and interdependence between distant regions. The desire for trade with Rome on the part of the Wu kingdom was one of the catalysts in the development of Southeast Asia. I just read of this today myself and was quite surprised.

[Thucydides]

Thank you Azeem, that was very interesting and I didn't know that detail :)

[prof786]

why weren't we told all this in world history?

[King Faticus]

Because the people that make the books are lazy?:D maybe it's because
there is so much info that most people would be overwhelmed to the point that they might be able to pass history class

[Thucydides]

In my reading today I was interested to discover (for me at least) that the Romans knew of Lake Chad, and that at least one Roman expedition reached its shores. Lake Chad was some 40 times the size it was today.

And here is another item of lost ancient knowledge. The Greeks, and by default the Romans, knew about gorillas. They were though an ancient myth by our 'mordern' society until 1847... when by chance a misionary who was also an amaterur antropologist was handed a gorilla skull in Africa by a local tribe. There is a very interesting article in the latest New Scientist to this end.

[prof786]

i'm not not surprised. rome always brought exotic animals from around the known world to the colesium.

[King Faticus]

I think I read somewhere that romans even imported polar bears for their specticles...... But I can't find any confirmation can sombody please tell me if this is true or not

[EmperorJay]

Google is your friend King Faticus :) . When I searched for "Romans + Polar Bears", these were the first 3 hits:

http://www.afunk.com/mammals/polarbear/
http://www.polarbearsinternational.org/bear-facts/polar-bears-in-zoos/
http://www.polarworld.com/polarfaq.asp

You have to scroll down a bit on the first and last site, but they both tell us that not only the Romans used Polar Bears hunting on Seals to entertain the people, but that the Egyptians in the 3rd century BC already had a few Polar Bears in their zoo in Alexandria.

Note: The sites are not necessarily the most professional I've ever seen, but if 3 sites claim this fact with this degree of detail, I tend to believe them.

[King Faticus]

I know google is my friend I just didn't have the time to use it, and I have a bad memory so if I didn't do it right away I would have forgotten, so Thanks for the links i'll be on and off from here on

[Christian IV]

So lets do a survey of the known limits of the Roman world.

This is what we can confirm based on historical evidence.

The Romans knew about the Baltics and Scandinavia and a country named Thule (most likely Norway).


[CUT]



The Romans not only knew about Scandinavia. They interacted heavily with this part of the world (or at least with modern day Denmark and southern Sweden). Many graves show heavy Roman influence due to their contents of Roman goods - some highly valuable - jewelry, glassware, weapons etc.

Apparently many "Danes" (they weren't really Danes back then) served in the Roman army and returned with Roman goods - or perhaps loot. It even looks as if some tribes served as the Romans "extended arms" in the area. They were clearly richer than neighbouring tribes and owned many Roman things.

Another couriosity: The biggest existing collections of Roman weapons have been found in Danish peat bogs. If they were loot brought home from Roman service or loot conquered from invading but defeated armies, is still being discussed. But if you want to study Roman weaponry (and all the other stuff the Roman army carried with it - medical instruments, games, cooking remedies, insignia, horse collars etc., etc.), come to Denmark.