how about evolution in c4

[lorincz_edmond]

do you think that in c4 we need evolution of science? for example if 20% of population get acces to school the development of science grow with 1%, if 20% of your people get acces to academy science development grow with 2% and so on more acces to school and academy or library give you more % of growing for science. and if you chouse a tipe of science for example astronomi you will develop ways to oriented for travelers (travelers come to your city faster) or if you chouse math you can develop new structures.
the pool section wood you like to have a develop tree?

[mad_genius]

The schools and academies could gather some sort of "Tech points" or "Science points". this points could then be used for researching new technologies.
On the other hand, i really don't know if the romans were a very scientific people. I'm not sure if they researched some or discovered some materials or technologies.

[Baba Hotep]

Romans mainly incorporated culture from other people. Per example, you'll see that their gods are the same than the Greek ones, just with different names and perhaps a different story here or there. Besides, this kind of 'knowlege system' is a bit too much of an RTS game. Like Rise of Nations.

[Nakia]

I agree with Baba Hotep. The Romans where a pragmatic people. They copied from other people. The greeks where the thinkers and the Romans hired or enslaved them to do the scientific thinking. The Romans where good engineers but I personally do not see the need for research ala so many other games. (click on this building or that building). Just develop as the game progresses.

{Hey I just got a letter from my greek advisor saying I can do......??

ie: Scenario I - Small city not a lot of technology. Scenario 10 Big, very big city with lots of technology.

[Keith]

Tech/Science points? I'm not so sure it would fit that well into a citybuilder though. That sort of thing might be well and good in a strategic war game like Rome Total War which spans a wider period of time. A game like Caesar IV would have scenarios that would probably only last 20-40 years, using COTN as a guide, and much too short to have any meaningful technology improvements.

One of the reasons given for the fall of Rome was that it was that the Romans got lazy with its technology development. As pointed out, they copied, borrowed, stole, or conquered the technology that they used. They didn't spend a lot of time improving upon it.

[lorincz_edmond]

ok let say that tey didn't do some technologi but what is engeniering about? to buil somethin strong you have to know something about math, fizic or things like that. and they build many great things that i don't think that is copied from other place. when i post this thread i was thinking about this kind of development and i was thinking that if you have a city with 70% miner activities in that city mining industries will be developed (not like in our time but maibe they will forge some enproved tools). i am not saying that if 100% of people have acces to school, library and academy they will descover atomic bomb but if this acces doesn't give enithing back what is his porpose? the idea with point to spend for development is great. by the way in this way every one will develop his city in his own way (many new way to treat a scenario or campain). you can play a scenario for many times with mani results.
i personaly want to see a diference about school, library and academy covered but if your vote say that we don't want this i will accept that.

[EmperorJay]

I don't care, in the way that I'm fine with our with technological improvements. Caesar IV will be a city builder and we've never had tech-trees in earlier versions and those games were still great fun! However, if TM decided to incorporate technological advancements and they do it well, I do think it would be an excellent addition to the genre.

[arcan]

there are several ways to incorporate a tech tree.
I can think of those, there are certainly more :
- Civilization-like (or Setlsers like). One build a university or something to make discoveries.^Not very realistic for a CB game, though..
- Pharaoh like/emperor like : one choses the era in which he/she wants to build a city. Different period means different technologies/buildings available. Already done, very good.Though, I'd like to bve able, in campaigns or long-lasting scenarii tobuild a citi in a period and continue it in the next one
-simcity (2000?) like : one starts at a chosen period with the fitting techs. The periods changes are pre-defined so that when the date is reach new technologies are available. I'd like that. The dates of change of period could be customizable and triggerable. This would allow real good scenarii!!!

[lorincz_edmond]

i agree with arcan but still have to have some diference from schools cover. i think that is better the idea with science point acumulate and use it to develop one or other line in tech tree. do you imagin the number of posibility to play a scenary. maibe this way we can enclose tech tree in CB.

[Baba Hotep]

I liked both Emperor where you had the allowed technologies already triggered, and CotN where you had everything available from the start. About the Roman Engineering, it was of course great, the best in the World indeed, but i think that they didn't invented much of their architecture after the first centuries following the foundation. Why not make building upgrades? That's incorporated in Tropico. Anyone played it? I know i cite it too much but it's because it's a really good game, in of the best ones i have to say. That's how it works: you build the building, and later if you have resources, you can then click the upgrade button, and it appears. IIRC, that was how the palace improvements worked in CotN. WHy not extend it to other buildings and with other purposes? Per example, you may have a blacksmith built. Make the 'foundry' upgrade, and it produces iron faster! What do you think?

[lorincz_edmond]

can it be bone like in civilization. a tech tree where you can spend money (large amount of money to decrese period of research) or points of culture (the higher school cover the more culture point you obtain.

[MarkDuffy]

yes

I like the idea of evolution. ;)

Especially a cascade effect. Opening World Map sites gets you industries/weaponsmiths to produce more & better products/soldiers, which in turn allows houses to evolve to need them & more.

Or, more years of schooling makes better craftsmen, or better schools become available.

Beat an enemy & steal their knowledge.

Even random inventions, not necessarily triggering.

Building monuments, historic buildings, or even the equivalent of steles, statues & obelisks could do it also. Or exploring certain sections of an unexplored map that starts out in black.

Lots of possibilities here. I would really like a game that started out simple & became more complex as you played it. Definitely not like COTN where everything was available from day one.

I still want a multiple Zeus-like Adventure model, instead of a C3-like tree or bush, but it appears THAT is not to be. Too bad.

[prof786]

depending the decision, the evolution must be shown.
-workshops getting better tools to maximize production
-people getting more self conscious about health, physique, sanitation, psyche, career w/ more education in time

[Mr_Cheese]

I don't think C4 should have any form of tech tree or anything like that. This game is about building cities afterall... If you want an RTS then play AoE III or one where tech is vital then play Civ IV. I think the only technological advancement that should be present in C4 is like the bronze work -> iron work in Emperor - it happens automatically when it should do historically. In C4 this could be the evolution of the army - from the early Republic through the Marian Reforms to the Early and Late Empire. Or with larger buildings being available as the years go on - this would reflect larger structures such as the massive public baths constructed in Rome by Caracella and the other guy (can't remember his name) later on in Roman history. Another evolution that could be represented in-game would be people's wants - during the Republic and Early Empire they would mainly want comfort and Roman victories/glory, towards the end of the later Empire they would want peace and stability more to reflect the changing nature of the Empire in the context of the world.

Cheers :)

[prof786]

mr cheese is right; evolution must be in the historical frame to avoid confusion.

[MarkDuffy]

mr cheese is right; evolution must be in the historical frame to avoid confusion.

Nutz to that!

This is a game. Reality can be bent to increase playability & prevent bordom with doing the same thing over & over.

You want historical precision? Buy a book.

[Nighteyes]

mr cheese is right; evolution must be in the historical frame to avoid confusion.

We don't want Atomic Bombs, we are just thinking of things like better tools, nothing totaly out of time context.

[prof786]

You want historical precision? Buy a book.

you mean a "fair and balanced" book?:D

[Mr_Cheese]

I just don't think that the technology research side of things should be added to the City Builder series. You are only the govenor of a province anyway. It would be nice to have technology/building styles/peoples' attitudes change over time, but independantly of anything the player is doing. Sure, if you're that bothered about it getting boring (which I don't think it will) you could have these events happen randomly in a set space of time. This way they would still be in historical order but there would be a degree of unknown.

[MarkDuffy]

I just don't think that the technology research side of things should be added to the City Builder series.

Everything possible needs to be in the CB series. Zeus had adventures that began simple, with few buildings possible, then the build list expanded & was different in different missions. Pharaoh did the very same thing. What is this "added" stuff?

We are talking about expanding the horizons of CBing, not "adding".

Ruts-R-NOT-Us(Me)

you mean a "fair and balanced" book?:D

lol

Well, when the Starship Enterprise warps towards then away from the sun & mysteriously appears in Roman Times, I would not want them to violate the Prime Directive!

:D

[Mr_Cheese]

Everything possible needs to be in the CB series. Zeus had adventures that began simple, with few buildings possible, then the build list expanded & was different in different missions. Pharaoh did the very same thing. What is this "added" stuff?

We are talking about expanding the horizons of CBing, not "adding".

Ruts-R-NOT-Us(Me)


Ok, maybe my the view I'm getting from the discussion so far is one where people want technology trees like AoE or games like that. I don't think CBs should go down that road really - I'm fine with how it is in Pharaoh/Emperor (haven't played Zeus).

[MarkDuffy]

Ok, maybe my the view I'm getting from the discussion so far is one where people want technology trees like AoE or games like that.

Yup! That is exactly what I want! :) Even more, I want new technologies to be earned & not bought. Especially involving decision trees. You can have this of a set of choices, but not also that. Each decision determines the future path of your city. You can replay the mission differently! :D

Or, if bought, buying one would double the price of the others.

In Zeus, it was done with Sanctuaries. Each would do something, but you could only have four max in a mission, sometimes less. Some even made industries possible in your city. Some gave you special military troops.

I don't think CBs should go down that road really - I'm fine with how it is in Pharaoh/Emperor (haven't played Zeus).

While I want more. Much more! :)

[CaitGrey]

I would like to see my city making use of "new" techologies as and when they have been researched.

[Kiya]

I would like to see my city making use of "new" techologies as and when they have been researched.

I like the idea we have new technologies and resources only after they are researched or "found" otherwise. Not like it is in CoTN when we have everything from the very beginning (like chariots). I like it more the way it's handled in Pharaoh or Emperor when new things come when it is their time.

[Nakia]

I just don't think that the technology research side of things should be added to the City Builder series. You are only the govenor of a province anyway. It would be nice to have technology/building styles/peoples' attitudes change over time, but independantly of anything the player is doing. Sure, if you're that bothered about it getting boring (which I don't think it will) you could have these events happen randomly in a set space of time. This way they would still be in historical order but there would be a degree of unknown.

I agree. There are plenty of games where you have to do tech research. I find it can bog the game down. "Oh, @#$@ I forgot to research arrow fletching or whatever. I believe technological changes should be incorporated into the game. Yes, I like the a game such as Caesar to follow history as much as is possible. Of course license is taken because it is a game. However it is a CB based on real people not a fantasy game.

[Schmophit]

I would like new technologies to be available, but in the correct time frame, like in Emperor and Pharoah, start off with nothing much and get more things as you advance through the levels :)

[wodinoneeye]

I would like new technologies to be available, but in the correct time frame, like in Emperor and Pharoah, start off with nothing much and get more things as you advance through the levels :)



Yeah the time period for a scenario isnt really long enough for developing technologies. BUT different scenarios from different periods could have different sets of technologies available EXCEPT that not that menay things changed. Ir was more a matter of refinements for most things (you cant really start ROME at the hunter gatherer stage like they did in Pharaoh because they were well past that point when Rome was founded).
You could have the scenarios start at the point of the 7(?) villages (herding and farming) organizing and setting up civics, an army, then later growing and needing the first aqueduct, later building a fleet, etc....

[lorincz_edmond]

when you talk about city you don't refear to buildings isn't that. we talk about people that live there, what they do. tech tree was present in people's life from the begining. that is the reason way people don't live in trees any more :D. so we talk about a city building or a city builder :D . the idea of tech tree is normal. when you are looking aout of your window you will see it. so if you don't want tech tree this meens that you want a city building, and if you want tech tree you want a city builder. this is my opinia. so let us vote and see what hapend :D it is a free world (the internet). there is another point of view for wat i think that tech tree must be there the hundred of way that you can play a scenary. you don't have to play another campain you can play the same but use other way of develop (hundreds an hundreds of hour of play):D .

[mad_genius]

An "everything on their time" tech system is more typical of CB games. But perhaps technological achievments could have more importance in the game. Since you start on the first scenarios with few things, each scenarios could have an introduction movie explaining not only the tasks and challenges but also new techs that are avaiable. (like a movie that talks about the new wine industry where you see governors from all the roman empire coming to some roman city to testify the achievment and see how it is implemented in the city, some sort of conference.)


On the other hand, if the RTS tech system is better then we better start creating a tech tree for TM to give their opinion.

[MarkDuffy]

(you cant really start ROME at the hunter gatherer stage like they did in Pharaoh because they were well past that point when Rome was founded).

Sure you could! Each adventure begins this way. Rome gets founded along the way. Besides, we are talking about cities & not necessarily Rome itself. We start with dirt.

100 adventures, each about 8 missions long! :)

You could have the scenarios start at the point of the 7(?) villages (herding and farming) organizing and setting up civics, an army, then later growing and needing the first aqueduct, later building a fleet, etc....

Dat too! :)

Each different adventure can start & end at different points in time. Zillions of possibilities.

Note: For all Zeus haters, substitute Campaigns for Adventures. :D

[wodinoneeye]

I would expect for Rome not a tech tree, but a tree of scale of various enterprises. As the city grows the increased organizational structures and supporting infrastructure would allow larger and larger installations of various industries, institutions, and city facilities.

Rome built some industrial complexes (like the mining sites in Spain) who's scale wasnt seen again in the world until the 19th century.

In C4 I would hope they would present this phenomenom by having evolving industrial buildings/clusters that as a family prospers, they start buying up adjacent properties/expanding into vacant land and consolidating them into larger complexes. For Nobles/rich people they might have ownership of more than just their townhouses and get income from rents, etc... (as well as properties outside the city)

[Mr_Cheese]

Yeah, that sounds like the kinda thing I'd like. It is realisticly based and shows technological advancement but it shouldn't put control of that advancement in the hands of the player. Unless maybe the size of properties were controlled by the wealth of the family... The richer/better off a family became the bigger and more technologically advanced an industry they could run...

[MarkDuffy]

I use the broad definition of tech tree, not just what we see in RTS war games. I would call the evolving of residences as following a tech tree, for example.

[prof786]

heck we can't even come up with a standardized "products" tree. "tech" tree seems kinda hard to visualize by now.

[Schmophit]

heck we can't even come up with a standardized "products" tree.We can you know, I've already done the groundwork in the "Products thread", but unfortunately, I don't know how to put it all into a chart like the one that "Run" made, I'm no good at that kind of thing :o

"tech" tree seems kinda hard to visualize by now.If all the info needed is gathered, then surely "someone" can do it?? We just need a clear idea of the technologies we want to include :)

[prof786]

If all the info needed is gathered, then surely "someone" can do it?? We just need a clear idea of the technologies we want to include :)

one poster told me that the few technologies that romans authentically had were practical. i've been having a hard time researching these roman technologies.

[Schmophit]

one poster told me that the few technologies that romans authentically had were practical. i've been having a hard time researching these roman technologies.Yes, but surely even the technologies they borrowed/conquered would fit in somewhere along the line?

[prof786]

Yes, but surely even the technologies they borrowed/conquered would fit in somewhere along the line?

that may be but i have yet to come across the appropriate roman technologies that were practical.

[Schmophit]

that may be but i have yet to come across the appropriate roman technologies that were practical.Hmm, yes I see that, well, let me know if you need any help :) and a rough idea of what to look for (LOL)

[prof786]

i started this project last month. it's kinda going dead like the last one. the inroductory thread has the parameters. jump in....

Various Advances of the Roman Sciences in the Roman Era (http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7459)

this is my first project. turned out kinda okay...

Actual Engineering In Roman Times (http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7221)

[Schmophit]

Well then I'll have a good look at them tomorrow (bit late to be thinking about googling tonight LOL) and I'll see what I can find out :)

[wodinoneeye]

one poster told me that the few technologies that romans authentically had were practical. i've been having a hard time researching these roman technologies.



I talked with an acquaintence who is fairly knowledgeable in classic age technologies specificly about 'roman' science and we really couldnt come up with much 'new' science to attribute to them. They had definite advances in things like glassblowing, but like most everything else that is applied science to technologies and engineering.


As Ive said before, a tech tree really isnt appropriate to a City Builder with scenarios that only span decades. For most games the tech tree is so meager (and the sequence so regulated) that you might as well have it automaticly run as the player is going to go thru it all anyway and mostly in the same order and it is just another tedious aspect that is better eliminated.

[MarkDuffy]

For most games the tech tree is so meager (and the sequence so regulated) that you might as well have it automaticly run as the player is going to go thru it all anyway and mostly in the same order and it is just another tedious aspect that is better eliminated.

I might remind you that "tedious" is what the C3 Cultists said was missing from COTN.

They called it "gameplay" & it roughly translated to "bean counting".

[Nighteyes]

One of my teachers told me that the Roman Plum was made with a clip that when it hit somthing would pop out and therefore stop the enemy from throwing it back at them, after the battle the romans went through and fixed all the spears with the clip. Another thing was their amour, that was well made. I think that the romans were fairly good with their soilders amour and wepons.

[Mr_Cheese]

I'm not entirely sure how that fitted into the discussion on technological evolution but hey... :)

I don't think the pilum had such a clip, at least in my studies of the Roman army I haven't come across it (and I have studied it in some depth). However, they were designed so the thin metal head would bend on impact with the ground/a sheild/someone's body. This would make them difficult to pull out and impossible to pick them up and throw them back at the Romans. As for armour, I don't think that Roman armour was that much more advanced than their enemies'. For the most part it was more the way the Romans used their equipment combined with certain tactics that made them so successful.

Armour does work as an example of technological advance. Way back in the beginning their main armour consisted of a chest and back plate, this was replaced by chain mail. Plate armour was introduced for the heavy infantry while auxillia still wore mail. Scale armour was introduced first for the light soldiers then it and chain mail replaced the plate armour of the heavy infantry as tactics changed. Towards the end of the Empire heavy troops such as the fully armoured (including the horses) cataphract cavalry were protected using scale armour.

[lorincz_edmond]

i like the idea of realistic game but i also like the idea of changing history. if i want to see how the history was i will buy a history book. this game must give us the option to chose one way of development or another and see how the present look if great roler of history did what we do in the game. this option will give playability to this game. after all it is a game not an history book. of course that if we want to discover chariots first we need circle discovered and so on. i don't want nuclear wepons but if we encoraged iron work our sword will be beter than other who encoraged agricultural. ofcourse that if we encoraged iron work we still have to feed our people so we have to trade with the city with agriculture devepoled. the city hith agriculture developed need wepons and tools to work the ground and they have to trade with city with iron work. if you have more people the grow will be faster than a city with a smoler number of people and depending of university and school and library cover the development will be faster or slower. you can cover much people if you don't have employes to work at school, academy or library. ther was a post earlier with points of schience witch you can use to discover new things. i like that