C4: Heroes & Quests

[MarkDuffy]

Thinking about Zeus, again & what it offered. Emperor kinda had this also.

You build a Hero's Hall that requires different things before you are able to summon a Hero. You need this hero to accomplish certain goals, perhaps even win a military engagement.

Perhaps, no Hero's Hall, or not always needed anyway, the hero is you as Governor & you can do nothing to the game while yourself is off the map on a Quest. Better have your city in order, eh?

Perhaps this hero is just your best military Commander & you can't attack anyone while he is gone. Or a Professor at the Academy who cannot teach while he is gone.

Perhaps you must breed, raise, educate & train a hero. Perhaps he has to have military experience in battle first. Perhaps he has to have successfully completed a historic building/monument to become a hero.

These Quests could be anything. Something within your own map, or something on the World Map. The completed Quest fires a trigger & this trigger could be anything. New buildings, new WM sites, prestige? Perhaps the hero could even die on the Quest.

The names for all of this could be changed to remove the Zeus "taint". ;)

Thoughts?

[Keith]

Nah, don't want that at all.

Let's not try to turn this into Zeus. Rome and Greece are distinctly different. While the Romans had their myths they were more like fairy tales than true beliefs.

The only heros Romans had were military, gladiatorial, or emperors. There are no quests for golden fleeces in ancient Rome. No quests.

Let a military commander become a war hero and have a Triumph in Rome, yes. Let a gladiator become famous and win his freedom, yes. Let a Emperor establish Pax Romana or conquer new provinces and become diefied, yes.

Let's not make C4 a dumping ground for "neat ideas" that have no real place in the Roman Empire.

[Nakia]

Let's not make C4 a dumping ground for "neat ideas" that have no real place in the Roman Empire.

I agree 100%!!!

[EmperorJay]

I do like the basics of your idea Mark! You aren't mentioning any mythical quests, so I see no problem with it :) . Perhaps these heroes can appear like they do in Civilization: during combat a military hero can arise and during scientific advance, a scientist can arise. Of course, this needs to be adapted for Caesar IV. So a military genius might randomly spawn from your military acadamy and grow better as he gains military experience.

However, I'm not sure how and why we players would want to have heroes. Would these heroes become your personal advisors who you can assign tasks to? A distant battle is easier lost without a hero, a monument is faster built with a scientist assigned to it?

Also, how personal would these heroes be? Can we "lose" them? If you don't manage to please them and you use, for example, a scientist to speed up monument construction, will he actually delay the construction? Will a military genius who has turned away from you, actually decrease the chances for you to win a battle?

Perhaps I'm adding too many RPG elements now (I actually wanted to add politics as well :p ), but if it were up to me, any game would have certain RPG elements to immerse the player into the game even more.

[MarkDuffy]

You know, I tried real hard in my thread post to separate the game mechanics of Heroes in Zeus from the Mythology in Zeus, as something to increase the gameplay in C4, cuz I knew anything with the Zeus label would cause a visceral reaction.

Obviously not enough, however... :eek:

Jay understood, but Keith didn't.

Perhaps this Hero, that has to be evolved from your city, is the only one who can open certain WM sites. Perhaps this Hero is the only citizen you can control to actually send across your own City Map, to explore black undiscovered territory, or open one of the locked gates that expands the visible portion of the City Map. Or, after meeting all the requirements of the Hero's Hall, the Hero goes there automatically.

[MAX-1]

No heros please. They just parade around and don't contribute.

But a quest would be nice. :D :D :D

[MarkDuffy]

No heros please. They just parade around and don't contribute.

But that is my point, Max. There is a reason why a Hero appears. Perhaps you have already created one & he is just going about his business with his regular job. At some point in a mission, you get a popup, or a WM site appears, or it starts as a mission goal. Envoys were just too easy in COTN (except for the time required to get them).

Lots of possiblilties with a "Hero" concept.

Those who didn't like COTN, complained that there wasn't enough beans to count. I am supplying beanz. :D

I don't care what happens to Heroes after they have accomplished their missions. They can disappear & be replaced as a possible statue or monument for increased prestige.

Or, after completing their missions, they become stronger educated elite.

But a quest would be nice. :D :D :D

:) :) :)

Let's say that a hard-to-construct historic building, Temple, Monument, Wonder, whatever, comes with a Hero or makes one possible to create.

[Keith]

I re-read and understand your original post. My first reply still stands.

Remember we are playing as governor-wannabee-emperors, not emperors. Sending out "heroes" is not something a governor would do.

[EmperorJay]

Let's ditch the term Hero then. Let's call them Experts and let's say that a city can have a variety of Experts: military, financial, architectural, religious, political and agricultural experts. A city can excell at one or more of these fields of expertise and the more advanced a city is on one field, the higher the chances are that an Expert arises. This does not need to be a "hero", the in-game message can be limited to something along the lines of:

"Governor, Gaius Julius Caesar has caught the eye of your advisors, he seems to be an expert in military tactics, perhaps he could be of use to you?"

So, you contact this Caesar fellow and he tells you that he is willing to aid you in your military endeavours. Unfortunately, he also tells you his wage is armour of exceptional quality and for him to succeed you also need to equip your soldiers better.

So, now we have: A reason when and why the expert appears, a valid, historically accurate role for the expert and the added challenge of a quest.

Perhaps we could assign the following traits to our various experts, of which, possibly, only one can be used at any time:
Military: Increased morale of troops, increased chance of winning distant battles.
Financial: Increased tax-revenue, increased trade-revenue.
Architectural: Monument construction speed up, Monument desirability increase.
Religious: (Depending on how gods are implented) Increased happiness of gods, increased happiness of people after festivals.
Political: Higher favour with Rome, increased chance of succesful politcal missions on the world map (Rome didn't settle anything by war after all!)
Agricultural: Increased harvest, less crops destroyed after disaster.

Of course, there should be more restrictions, options and fine tuning but I think this could be an excellent addition to the CB genre.

[MarkDuffy]

I re-read and understand your original post. My first reply still stands.

I am not surprized.

Remember we are playing as governor-wannabee-emperors, not emperors. Sending out "heroes" is not something a governor would do.

You know this how, Keith?

You are still stuck on labels.

[Keith]

I am not surprized.

Remember we are playing as governor-wannabee-emperors, not emperors. Sending out "heroes" is not something a governor would do.

You know this how, Keith?

You are still stuck on labels.

How? You mean playing as "governors?"

Right from the source, that's how, look on the Game Info / Overview page:

"Stationed in a newly established Roman province, your job as governor......"

and

"Your ultimate goal is to rise among the political ranks of the empire, and become Caesar yourself."

Labels.... works for me. :D

[MarkDuffy]

How? You mean playing as "governors?"

Right from the source, that's how, look on the Game Info / Overview page:

"Stationed in a newly established Roman province, your job as governor......"

and

"Your ultimate goal is to rise among the political ranks of the empire, and become Caesar yourself."

Labels.... works for me. :D




Keith, Keith, Keith...

Sending out "heroes" is not something a governor would do.

How do you know this?

And the labels you are stuck on is "Zeus" & "Mythology". :D

I have a solution to your dilemma. How about instead of calling them "Heroes", we call them "Elite republicans" ?

(I can't bring myself to capitalize it though...)

:p

[Azeem]

How about this - have your governor have his own characteristics. From the start, you can select certain "strengths" (such as "thrifty" which would reduce building costs) and "weaknesses" (such as "short-tempered" which would make people like you less). Over time, depending on how you build your city (focus on agriculture would give you an "agricultural" attribute and increase farm production slightly) or how you interact on the world level (initiating military campaigns abroad would make you "aggressive," giving a slight bonus to soldier strength) affects the characteristics of your governor. :)

Of course, this would have two major problems: 1) it can make your "governor" too "powerful" in attributes; and 2) it probably would not be easy to implement. ;)

[Marius]

You mean like in Tropico?

http://www.godgames.com/game.php?game=g3eb0518115ba5

- In this game you selected various positive and negative personality traits for your Dictator/Presidente.

Your choices gave advantages or disadvantages in economics of your island, internal political (various social groups in your population being suportive or causing riots/revolutions), and world political aspects(are you friendly with USA, USSR or nobody).

Seemed to work for the game... just not sure if this is where C4 should be heading. Tropico also made the assumption that a Character had to choose among some relatively severe character flaws... just because they have to have a few. (eg alcoholism, tourettes, flatulence<<Palace guards get extra pay>>, compulsive gambling, womanizing, compulsive lying etc...) - All of the flaws made some group unhappy and more likely to cause you trouble.

[Rubicon]

Sending out "heroes" is not something a governor would do.

I would submit that they do it all the time (including present day governors). Putting labels aside for a minute ( :eek: ), I think what Mark is driving at are "specialists" that are assigned "tasks". A governor can't be everywhere and do everything at the same time, and would certainly appoint I like the idea and think that it could really add a lot of flavor to the game and even bring in a little bit of a first person aspect to the game (per Azeem's reply).

If they are employed in some sort of "quest" context, it would provide some interesting diversions between some of the slow periods of contruction, production, etc... Alternately, if used more like EmperorJay's suggestion, they could be combined with the familiar concept of "reasearch" and allow you accelerate certain tasks. Take agriculture, for example. The productivity of a certain plot of farmland might start out slowly in the first few years of crops. As time passes and the farmers gain experience, the farms should become more productive. Hiring an "Agriculture Hero" (or expert or consultant or whatever) would make the farms more productive sooner. They could be used for a specific period of time and then released. After they are gone, their contribution could remain.

Cool idea, IMO.

[MarkDuffy]

Cool idea, IMO.

Thankx, Rubicon. :) And from a C3 Cultist, too! :) :) :)

The Hero's Hall in Zeus couldn't just be put anywhere. Sometimes it needed culture access, others extreme desirability. Certain goods also. Other things. Specific buildings had to be built before you could summon a Hero.

It was a tool for user-created-scenario makers to use. :)

Heroes were a multi-step process & I loved what it introduced into Zeus.

[Keith]

The fact that governors may do it today doesn't prove that they did it back then.

How do we know they did it? The sword cuts two ways. Can you cite a documented incident when it happened.

So far in the things that I've read on Roman farming, I can find no such incidence being mentioned. I have not found any mention of experts being assigned by a governor to oversee agriculture, industry, or any other function as yet.

The fact is the farms were run privately, not by the governor. Either the patrician Senator or the small farmer were responsible for the running of their farms, not some fairy tale expert appointed by the governor.

The closest thing to a "hero" one can find in the Roman Empire is the "Comes" or "companion". These were men selected by the Emperor (not the governor) for special duties, like overseeing the treasury, etc.

The term "Comes" later loosely becomes translated into "Count." These men were more than likely selected for their loyalty to the emperor or for a political advantage rather than their skills.

For a rough explanation of "Comes" refer to this material:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comes


The offices being mentioned are more grandios than the a simple "hero/expert" you refer to might be employed in. The Comes were courtiers and appointed officers of the imperial court.

The closest thing to the type of character you mention is the "Comes rerum privatarum," who is responsible for the holdings and estates of the emperor and family. He collected the rent. I haven't found a reference to a similar office that was appointed by a governor.

Other titles that come close are the Vicarius and Dux. Vicarius roughly meant "second" or "deputy." The Vicarius were governors of smaller provinces or dioces. They were assisted by a Dux, or military commander, who commanded the troops in the event they were called out by the Vicarius.

Again, these were positions given by the emperor to a governor and a military "deputy."

[EmperorJay]

So, Cato wrote his De Agricultura just for our pleasure? Vitrivius wrote his De Architectura because he had nothing better to do? Or did they both write that because the Emperor ordered them to? Keith, you're taking this too litteraly.

Throughout history, everywhere in the world, there have been people who influenced the technologies of their time, the military tactics of their time, the religions of their time. However, these people didn't run to the ruler of their country straigth after coming up with something brilliant. Surely, Vitrivius didn't become famous because he had brilliant plans. He became brilliant because someone noticed that he was very good at his job and only after that he was given the freedom to realise the brilliant plans he had. A farmer who comes up with an innovative idea will test it out on his own fields before telling it to someone else and gradually the patricians would hear about this innovation and use it on their own acres.

The idea behind this is that the player is rewarded for excelling in a certain area, but that reward comes at a cost. That's it, how this idea could be implented is something we're discussing, but you seem 100% against it.

That's no problem for me, what I find very interesting, however, is that you dare to back up your arguments with historical accuracy while you were the one who suggested that mere governors should be deified. Be honest and say you don't like the idea of rewarding the player for something specific because that's the only conclusion I can draw.

[Keith]

So, Cato wrote his De Agricultura just for our pleasure? Vitrivius wrote his De Architectura because he had nothing better to do? Or did they both write that because the Emperor ordered them to? Keith, you're taking this too litteraly.

I don't see the relevance. Neither of these men were governors or politicians. They were historians.

Throughout history, everywhere in the world, there have been people who influenced the technologies of their time, the military tactics of their time, the religions of their time. However, these people didn't run to the ruler of their country straigth after coming up with something brilliant. Surely, Vitrivius didn't become famous because he had brilliant plans. He became brilliant because someone noticed that he was very good at his job and only after that he was given the freedom to realise the brilliant plans he had. A farmer who comes up with an innovative idea will test it out on his own fields before telling it to someone else and gradually the patricians would hear about this innovation and use it on their own acres.

That being the case, it should be easy to document a instance in Roman history where this happened. So give me one from the Roman empire.

However, it seems you over estimate Vitrivius,

"Vitruvius is sometimes loosely referred to as the first architect, but it is more accurate to describe him as the first Roman architect to have written on his field. He was less an original thinker or creative intellect than a codifier of existing architectural practice." -wikpedia

The idea behind this is that the player is rewarded for excelling in a certain area, but that reward comes at a cost. That's it, how this idea could be implented is something we're discussing, but you seem 100% against it.

Pretty much.

That's no problem for me, what I find very interesting, however, is that you dare to back up your arguments with historical accuracy while you were the one who suggested that mere governors should be deified. Be honest and say you don't like the idea of rewarding the player for something specific because that's the only conclusion I can draw.

True, but I did say in my post that it was something that was unlikely to happen to a governor. I didn't take the stance that it did or could happen as the rest of you have in this thread. I then modified my proposal to it could only happen once you became emperor at the end of the game.

[Nighteyes]

"Vitruvius is sometimes loosely referred to as the first architect, but it is more accurate to describe him as the first Roman architect to have written on his field. He was less an original thinker or creative intellect than a codifier of existing architectural practice." -wikpedia


Ok, so if he wasn't an original thinker then who did the ideas origanaly come from?:confused: Even if the ideas came from several people you can still incorporate this idea of experts in to the game, and if you don't like it you don't have to welcome them in, or you can chuck out the expert-to-be from the city.
I'd imagine that even if it is part of the game you woldn't Have to have them.

[EmperorJay]

I've quoted Wikipedia a lot in the following. Although it is not always the most trustworthy source, I hope you accept them for now.

Also, in hindsight, by post may have sounded a bit harsh. My apologies.

I don't see the relevance. Neither of these men were governors or politicians. They were historians.

They were good at what they did and that's my point; they were not necessarily appointed by the Emperor, nor where they heroes, they had knowledge. Their books may or may not have influenced, positively, that what they wrote about, but somewhere along the road, their advices to other people mut have lead to an improvement of the current situation.

However, it seems you over estimate Vitrivius,

"Vitruvius is sometimes loosely referred to as the first architect, but it is more accurate to describe him as the first Roman architect to have written on his field. He was less an original thinker or creative intellect than a codifier of existing architectural practice." -wikpedia

So he may not have come up with new ideas, but did he not improve the current situation by improving concepts?

Let's take another example: Marcus Vipsanius Aggripa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Vipsanius_Agrippa), the man who designed the original Pantheon. First, I will admit that he was a close friend of Emperor Octavian. Second, I will admit that he, among other offices, was appointed Aedile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aedile). An office which was based in Rome. It is not unlikely, however, that the governor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Governor) himself was assisted by people who held an office similar, but of lesser importance, to that of the Aedile. According to wikipedia, these men were called comites (comes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comes)). However, if you read the quote below and the article on the comites, Wikipedia contradicts itself here a bit.

Every governor had at his disposal a diversity of advisers and staff, who were known as his comites (Latin for "companions"); the number of these depended on the governor's social standing and rank. These comites would serve as the governor's executive council, with each supervising a different aspect of the province, and assisting the governor in decision making.

First, I want to elaborate a bit on Aggripa, then I will continue to continue on the subject of the comites.

Aggripa

Aggripa was a friend of Octavian. He was the person who had helped Octavian gain many victories, but he was also a man with a talent for architecture. Some quotes from wikipedia:

Agrippa was also known as a writer, especially on the subject of geography. Under his supervision, Julius Caesar's dream of having a complete survey of the empire made was carried out. He constructed a circular chart, which was later engraved on marble by Augustus, and afterwards placed in the colonnade built by his sister Polla. Amongst his writings, an autobiography, now lost, is referred to.

In commemoration of the battle of Actium, Agrippa built and dedicated the building that served as the Roman Pantheon before its destruction in 80 AD. Emperor Hadrian used Agrippa’s design to build his own Pantheon, which survives in Rome.

In 33 BC, he was elected aedile, where he used his knowledge of architecture to his advantage. He signalized his tenure of office by effecting great improvements in the city of Rome, restoring and building aqueducts, enlarging and cleansing the Cloaca Maxima, constructing baths and porticos, and laying out gardens. He also gave a stimulus to the public exhibition of works of art. As emperor, Augustus would later boast that "he had found the city of brick but left it of marble," thanks to the great services provided by Agrippa under his reign.

The three (Octavian, Agrippa, and Maecenas) developed a close friendship while away from Rome under Caesar’s orders. Agrippa quickly rose in favor within the Macedonian legions, the commanders taking note of his amazing leadership abilities. He also learned of architecture, learning the skills he would use later in his life.

Especially the first quote is most interesting. Supported by the fact that he served under Julius Caesar for a while, it seems that this man spent some time in the provinces.

To summarize: what we have here is a man appointed by the current ruler to carry out various tasks both in Rome and her provinces. A man, with great knowledge in many fields. A man, who can surely improve many things in a governors city. This man can be perfectly translated to Mark's idea of Heroes and Quests:

The player assumes the role of governor. He is assigned a complicated task, which involves the building of infrastructure (aqueducts and roads). Because the player shows great talent for construction (he manages to meet certain criteria quickly, f.e. the conctruction of a major road), the Emperor lets the player know that he thinks of sending an excellent architect to your province. However, since Rome is decadent, the player will need to meet certain criteria to please the architect (wine and entertainment). Or perhaps the architect is not decadent at all, but very religious and the player needs to improve the religion in his city. However, as soon as he arrives, he will aid the player by decreasing contruction costs, or increasing contruction speed.

Comites

Apparently the governor had access to the comites. Whether appointed by the governor or the Emperor himself is not so important. Either way it will be possible to incorporate them into Caesar IV in a way that it will resemble Mark's idea somewhat.

The following will still apply to what I'm going to suggest:

The idea behind this is that the player is rewarded for excelling in a certain area, but that reward comes at a cost.

These comites are not assigned to you, the governor, during a mission itself. They are assigned to you after a mission, to accompany you in the next one.

Certain criteria, set by the designer, known to the player, allow the player to be rewarded the comites. In a desert province, the designer might say that if the player manages to have 5 succesful harvests in a year (a succesful harvest being X cartloads), that he will be awarded a comes for the next mission who's an expert in agriculture. As a bonus, the player will have a 10% increase on every harvest the next mission.

[Rubicon]

The fact that governors may do it today doesn't prove that they did it back then.

How do we know they did it? The sword cuts two ways. Can you cite a documented incident when it happened.

We're talking about a game for crying out loud! I personally could not care less whether or not they actually did. The fact that it is plausible that they may have done so is good enough for me. However, this historical accuracy is apparently very important to you - which is fine. I'm more inclined to willingly suspend some disbelief in a trade off for enjoyable gameplay. After all, are TM creating a city building game, or Roman history simulator?

[Nakia]

Although I think most of us want the game to be reasonably accurate historically it is after all a game. I do not think having experts in the game is unreasonable. The first guy to come up with using fire was the 'expert' in fire for his tribe. I could give hundreds of other examples. I don't think they should be called heros just experts who give an advancement to your city. Having them available could be based on prestige or X number of something or completing a mission or even building an agricultural, etc. college. I don't really care just as long as they aren't HEROS ala Zeus. Heros were fine in Zeus. I got a kick out of Hercules rafting over to kill the whatsis.

Sure the Romans copied other people but they did a good job of it. Isn't there a saying "Know yourself"? To me that includes knowing your limitation and if you do not have a great inventive imagination that doesn't mean you shouldn't avail yourself of others imagination.

[Keith]

The following will still apply to what I'm going to suggest:

These comites are not assigned to you, the governor, during a mission itself. They are assigned to you after a mission, to accompany you in the next one.

Certain criteria, set by the designer, known to the player, allow the player to be rewarded the comites. In a desert province, the designer might say that if the player manages to have 5 succesful harvests in a year (a succesful harvest being X cartloads), that he will be awarded a comes for the next mission who's an expert in agriculture. As a bonus, the player will have a 10% increase on every harvest the next mission.

Ok, that makes more sense, and is closer to history, which is what I'm after. I can see a Comes being sent to you by the emperor for some special project or a aid, but not to have one just spring up from nowhere based on some fanciful programmer's notion.

I just don't want the "Zeus hero system" for Caesar IV. Where you have established heroes that can be summoned by bogus means like building a heroe's hall, for want of a better example, just so you can send them out on some fictional "quest". The "quests" or a better word might be "task", should not be mythological in nature and should be more factually based as per your example. I can live with that.

[Keith]

After all, are TM creating a city building game, or Roman history simulator?

I'm after a new citybuilder based on Roman history, not some vast hegemony of a game based on old game functions, old ideas, old features, or old programming limitations.

[Keith]

Although I think most of us want the game to be reasonably accurate historically it is after all a game. I do not think having experts in the game is unreasonable. The first guy to come up with using fire was the 'expert' in fire for his tribe. I could give hundreds of other examples. I don't think they should be called heros just experts who give an advancement to your city. Having them available could be based on prestige or X number of something or completing a mission or even building an agricultural, etc. college. I don't really care just as long as they aren't HEROS ala Zeus. Heros were fine in Zeus. I got a kick out of Hercules rafting over to kill the whatsis.

Sure the Romans copied other people but they did a good job of it. Isn't there a saying "Know yourself"? To me that includes knowing your limitation and if you do not have a great inventive imagination that doesn't mean you shouldn't avail yourself of others imagination.

Sure it's a game, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't stick to history.

As far as your comment about the Zeus heroes, I agree. I don't want Zeus style heroes. I would favor a "expert" system based along EmperorJay's suggestion in his last post, if there was to be any sort of system like that included in the game, over any other type.

[Nakia]

@Keith,, I think we agree on this.

[MarkDuffy]

Keith, you are a piece of work, my friend... :p ;) :D

Jay is a great dentist! :)

Sample Heroes from COTN

Envoys: The Hero's Hall was the Palace. Their quest was to open World Map sites.

Remember, I won Nekhen w/o a Palace.

Educated Elite: The Hero's Hall was first the School with a dedicated Priest. Then the Educated's Home with enough prestige. Their quest was the job they did.

[poser002]

Well i'm not going to read every post but it is a sound idea in theory. Maybe not so much as quests but just random heros come along and join ur city. Also keith yes there were roman heros other then the war heros and teh ceaser him self. There were great builders and artists of the era. Just look at some of the things they built of that area. Also there were more heroic people of that area like troy, alxender, Achilles so on. COuld be that builders u get to build a new wonder. For artists they will make a great panting or some other kind of great art for the city to boost happyness. War heros could be better at training ur troops to make them better fighters.