building religion

[CharleyK1]

Originally Posted by sakasiru

What most seem to forget is that it is still more effective to have some of the workers wander off to the main city to celebrate a holiday or something than having *all* workers wander to their working site and back *every day*. And most wandering can be avoided as Tink said by just building enough shops and bakeries.

Main problem is really that labourers walk all across the map if you have several active quarries/ mines. I tend to avoid this by only placing one camp strategically near most ressources of wich I need plenty: Limestone, (though I avoid quarrying this at all as soon as I can import the stuff), and depending on the scenario most important gems or metals. Never near granite, of which I never need much, or even basalt, because laborers have to drag the stuff around anyway.
If that's not possible, just beat them with numbers: Place double the amount of laborers you'd normally need, so you still have a good amount working while the rest is walking the earth...

More effective? I haven't done any labs on it, but I don't think so. Assuming I build enough support structures to keep people from wandering TOO much, I have a need for more bricks for all those additional structures and more farms for all these added structures and people. Add it all up, and I need more of everything to support the remote site which means waiting until prestige is high enough to support it all. And still, even if I've done it well, SOME wandering is likely. Now, compare that to building 1 overseer and 3 to 8 laborers on an edge of my city closest to the task - I can do so without a lot of extra bricks or prestige, and my existing network of health care and worship covers those few added citizens with no problem. My laborers never wander; they keep at the task (they do indeed finish the task more slowly than a remote camp right next to the task operating at peak efficiency, but in my opinion, peak efficiency is rarely reached because of the wandering). My net result is that I can start mining/quarrying/building that much sooner and I always have a crew handy for a statue, stele or obelisk. Last but not least, it fits in with my minimalist playing style quite well.

Originally Posted by Tinkerbell

Minimalists suck! <ducking>

More is Always Better!

Of course minimalists suck! how else would we get the milk shake up through the straw?

And if more is always better, I'm glad I'm not the scale that has to weigh you or the doctor that has to treat you!

Mom was right! discussions about religion are always rowdy!

[Tinkerbell]

Originally Posted by CharleyK1

Of course minimalists suck! how else would we get the milk shake up through the straw?

And if more is always better, I'm glad I'm not the scale that has to weigh you or the doctor that has to treat you!

Mom was right! discussions about religion are always rowdy!

LOL !!!

Excellent comeback!

[sakasiru]

You don't need much more farms for the added structures. You build the overseer and the laborers anyway, so leave them out. Shops support themselves. Only extra you have to feed is one priest, and pretending you don't need him if you build in your main city, one baker.
As for the structure, as I said you can make well with 4 shrines and one set of healthcare.
This means, you need 4 shrines (4x10 bricks), 1 priest dedicated to all (25 bricks), 1 bakery (10 bricks) and apothecary and hospital (you have to help me with these numbers, still no acess to the game. 25 and 50?). As before, shops don't cost you a breadcrumb. This adds up to about 150 bricks.

Now if you want do a lab for me, will you?

Set up a city of your usual size. Place it on any map you like with an average distance to a mine. Should be some distance, let's be fair, but doesn't need to be on the other end of the map. There should be enough room around the mine to build the needed buildings.
Wait until the city is running smoothly, and you have enough bricks to build overseer and 4 laborers, then save the city.

Now build the overseer and 4 laborers like you usually do. As they are finished, note how many bricks you have. Now let them mine, as long as it takes you to produce another 150 bricks, and keep your fingers still otherwise (no more buildings, trading etc! ). Note how much they mined once you reach 150 bricks.
Then load the game again and set up a camp directly beside the mine. Start building a brickyard, and a bricklayer beside it, set up the 4 laborers and the overseer, and add shops (at least 4 common, and 4 luxshops of your choice). As soon as the overseers ist build, set them on mining. Then add a bakery, a priest, an apothecary, 4 shrines and a hospital in that order.

Once you completed the camp, pause the game and compare how much you mined in the time with your results from the first try. Note that this is only the amount you got mined with an incomplete camp, where laborers are wandering much. Once its ready, you can stop another 150-bricks-timespan and see what amount they mine now.

Btw., I do not want to prove a point here. In fact, I'm curious myself how this will turn out. There's nothing wrong with building tiny and close together and even if you want as few shops as possible that's fine, and truely a matter of tastes. But you *can* measure effectiveness

[TEP]

Originally Posted by Tinkerbell

Yes! Overseers & lux shops trigger the need for Health & worship, as do laborers.

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I just stumbled across this.

Am I to understand that citizens will not ask for healthcare and worship until I build certain buildings?

Good to know in the first year or two.

[CharleyK1]

Originally Posted by TEP

Am I to understand that citizens will not ask for healthcare and worship until I build certain buildings?

Hi TEP

I don't know the game as intimately or as deeply as Tinkerbell, but based on the quote of his that you've highlighted, I can say that you would be hard pressed to avoid building any lux shops. Your palace and nobles will NOT be very happy if they have no lux goods at all.

For a year you can probably get away with almost anything, maybe even two years, but sooner or later, you'll have to build lux shops to keep the elite happy and health care and worship to keep everyone healthy and happy. Those two items mean at least one priest, who will want lux goods too, so he'll leave without them as will the nobles if you wait too long.

...Charley

[Tinkerbell]

Originally Posted by TEP

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I just stumbled across this.

Am I to understand that citizens will not ask for healthcare and worship until I build certain buildings?

Good to know in the first year or two.

Yes, I think so. Here I am talking specifically about a remote camp far from your main city. It will be basically on its own & with only low class people there, remote farming, remote brickmaking, remote laborers only, we can get away with only common shops & bakeries. Maybe a few alert icons on some homes there, but they remain happy overall.

If the remote camp is close enough to our main city, it will "feel" the services there & want them.

Now, if you add an overseer or priest to the far remote camp (Educated Workers), then they will need lux shops. They also need services. These are higher class homes. Once you add these services (health & worship); then the farmers, brickmakers & laborers will also want them & get upset if they are not available.

This works the same for your main city start build, as CharleyK1 just posted.

[sakasiru]

Originally Posted by TEP

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I just stumbled across this.

Am I to understand that citizens will not ask for healthcare and worship until I build certain buildings?

Good to know in the first year or two.

You will certainly have 1-2 years of peace before your people start demanding. As far as I've seen, the demand rises with the overall growth of your population. I wrote a scenario, "exile", where you are limited to a very small population without any nobles. I managed to play over 10 years without anyone complaining for religion or healthcare (I may have turned off some events, though, must look at it). Only when you go over a certain population limit (which is reached easily in normal scenarios in the first few years), the CotNizens will start looking for those services.
This experience might have to do with the lack of nobles, though. Certainly not with luxshops, of which I had plenty. Military will trigger a demand of hospitals, and Set and Sobek worship, but then again, building up military will surely take you over the "undemanding population limit" anyway.

[Tinkerbell]

Yes, that is true also, sakasiru! Why I responded was to clarify & was talking about a remote camp in addition to the main city that has already passed TM's built-in grace time for scenario start builds.

and it is sooner (or less population) on hard difficulty then on normal.

[CharleyK1]

I suppose I should clarify too - I interpreted TEP's question to be about the very start of a city or scenario, NOT about a remote camp. My reply in post #25 above reflects that.

...Charley

[tomnobles]

Originally Posted by sakasiru

You will certainly have 1-2 years of peace before your people start demanding. As far as I've seen, the demand rises with the overall growth of your population...

Yep, the bigger the city the more stuff they need;

http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/att...6&d=1266518655

From this thread - post #20 - pic #5;

http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25195

[sakasiru]

Originally Posted by tomnobles

Yep, the bigger the city the more stuff they need. I had over 100 shrines to keep them happy;

True!

But what I meant was, under a certain number of CotNizens, you don't need worship or healthcare facilities at all. They just won't aks for it.

[TEP]

Thanks everyone for your replies.
I was actually thinking about the first years of a city - realising that, as CharleyK1 pointed out, it doesn't matter that much either way. I just thought that demand was governed by time and population alone.
The proximity effect is new to me, however. I thought that it was the same for the entire city.
It has always been my thinking to keep the main city and work/military camps as close as possible to minimize the damage from people walking between them. This is wong, then.
Better to keep remote camps - remote

[CharleyK1]

Originally Posted by TEP

It has always been my thinking to keep the main city and work/military camps as close as possible to minimize the damage from people walking between them. This is wong, then.
Better to keep remote camps - remote

Hi again TEP

I wouldn't say it's wrong, no. A great thing about CotN is that it can be many things to many people. You'll find much debate about remote camps scattered throughout the postings here, and I'd say there's no conclusive right or wrong.

My personal preference (so far) has always been to avoid remote camps whenever possible, and it's almost always possible. I've yet to see a map/scenario where one MUST build their main city in one corner of a huge map while a necessary resource is only available in the farthest corner away from there. Short of that, clever placement of one's buildings can minimize the "commute" workers must make. While remote camps DO make sense, one MUST start thinking about providing duplicate support (health care, worship, shops, etc.) if they are used. It also adds the complication that with duplicate support buildings, some people from EACH area (main city and remote camp) may decide to go to the more distant support building for various reasons.

You'll definitely find players that feel "bigger is better" and you'll also find players like me that feel "small is good; simpler is better than more complicated." Food for thought

...Charley

[Tinkerbell]

Originally Posted by TEP

The proximity effect is new to me, however. I thought that it was the same for the entire city.

This effect has always been in COTN, but enhanced v1.3 made it even easier to build not only remote camps, but also entire remote cities. Not as much walking back & forth across our maps now, even for high class people.

It has always been my thinking to keep the main city and work/military camps as close as possible to minimize the damage from people walking between them. This is wong, then.

Well, if you use remote camps, classical definition with priests/overseers for labor camps & priests/commanders for military camps, you will need more Educated Workers for services in those remote camps also & this is limited by prestige, especially on Hard difficulty with a cap of only 25. So it is better to not build them; rather make them part of your main city.

It really depends on how much prestige you have to burn.

Better to keep remote camps - remote

Yes!

[TEP]

Thanks again. I agree that remote camps are to be avoided.
However, my greedy side wants to do and build all that I can on a map, and it sometimes leads me down that path.