Are we a breed that is dying out?

[Cironir]

There are two genres that I adore: city builders and turn-based fantasy games. Oddly enough, there are relatively few new games in either of these genres. There's no new fantasy TBS in sight (that I know of), and CotN is the only building game that I'm looking forward to this year (there was another that eobet mentioned). I've tried to get into popular RTS games like Rise of Nations, but I get either bored or annoyed after just a few hours.

Are we a dying breed? Something that's left over from the earlier days of video gaming when CPUs weren't as fast, or do we just have "strange tastes"? Or, alternatively, are there a lot of gamers that simply don't know about these types of games?

[vovan]

Originally Posted by Cironir

... do we just have "strange tastes"? Or, alternatively, are there a lot of gamers that simply don't know about these types of games?

A mix of those two, I think. The most heavily advertised games - RTSs and FPSs, are also the most popular. They are, I think, much like the arcades of the old days. They stress coordination of movements much more heavily than the slow consideration that TBSs, and citybuilders, stimulate. And most people prefer such "mindless" games.

Of course, I should make an aside here, that by mindless, I don't really mean that mind is not occupied - just that a different part of it is exercised.

[Josh]

I think we are just the people who experienced games going from the board, to games that were too complex to be on a board so using a fancy calculator to figure out how many peices we get and to roll the die was great, and then games started moving beyond emulations of board games (squares became hexes, hexes became smaller (untill now we cant see them and concider them fluid movements) and turns became shorter, then movement and turns was introduced, then someone decided turns should just be done away with.

I would say turns are dead, remember we grew up when gamers were anti-social geeks playing in their dark basement, games didnt need to go fast, we could start a turn, survey the map, get a drink, make some moves, use the bathroom, make a few more moves, take out the trash, think "I think I might be able to click finish now" then we survey the land some more, and finaly click finish .. then we say "oh crap I forgot to..." as the computer clicks away.

Now that everything is multiplayer (which I do enjoy, playing against my friend's mind is as enjoyable as chess) If we tried to pull that we would get yelled at and our friend would leave the game.

Also we may feel like we are the minority in the gaming community now, but thats just because we used to be 50 percent of it (the other fifty composed of office workers playing solitaire) geeks long ago who liked strategy were playing chess when the cool kids were playing sports all the time, then computers came around and most of the geeks started playing on computers and the cool kids were still playing sports (and maybe the odd nintendo) then computers got 3D graphics and computers became cool, and now those cool kids are dwarfing the odd strategy gamer with their first person shooters, we didnt get any smaller, a bigger group just moved into our turf

I dont miss turns, I just miss games being a game...

Anyone up for some chess?

[Anguille]

Well,
I don't think that we are dying out. There are some games that, even if not turn based, shouldn't be too fast:

Spartan & Gates of Troy came out this year (TBS):
http://www.slitherine.co.uk

Medieval Lords (city Building) should come out soon:
http://www.montecristogames.com

Knights of Honor (slow RTS) where you build up an empire:
http://www.knights-of-honor.net/

Space Empires 5 due out next year:
http://www.malfador.com/

I haven't been really looking for fantasy games but i think that Stardock wants to make a sequel to Master of Magic.
http://www.galciv.com/index.asp?u=0

There's probably more...

Chess? ME ME ME

[Josh]

If anyone really intrested in a game PM me, I wouldnt mind check-mating you* what else can we do to occupy our time waiting.


*I probably wont be able to

[NeilV]

I blame Microsoft the moment Mr Gates decided that computers should be for everyone (when he introduced Win 95) I think it sounded the death toll for TBS their are still a few out their but they hide it so well that the average gamer thinks its a real time game (neverwinter nights etc) I even remember before online gaming was play by mail when we had a game of Stars going for about 18 months.

Hopefully with all the big companies cutting back now we will get some more independent companies that will produce what the gamers want.

And I am still managing to stay a geek as I have 5 PC's but no cool console

[EmperorJay]

Interesting question! I have been thinking about the answer for a couple of minutes but I don't have a definite answer.

Many people prefer fast paced action these days (ie. shooters) but I believe that there are still many people around who do have the time to play "slow" games. (Though games are as slow as you want them to be)

Are citybuilding games dying out? Certainly not and perhaps a 3D citybuilder will even catch the attention to people who never played the genre before.

As for (Fantasy) TBS, I don't know. TBS is not dying out either (Civ IV is in production) but I don't know about fantasy, I don't like that.

[Jayhawk]

There's no new fantasy TBS in sight

I fully expect Triumph to bring up another installment of Age of Wonders, though.

[Cironir]

Originally Posted by Jayhawk

I fully expect Triumph to bring up another installment of Age of Wonders, though.

I asked this very question on the HG forums a couple of days ago. The status right now is that Triumph Studios are working on "something else", and that there are no definite plans for a new AOW game -- at least not in the forseeable future (two or three years). Then again, considering that AOW:SM came out only one year ago, that's still not too uncommon. Other than the passive AI, I think SM is pretty much perfect as far as MoM type of games are concerned.

Earlier today, Iain McNeil of Slitherine inquired in the Usenet newsgroup comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic if there'd be interest in fantasy-themed versions of their historical TBS games (Legion, Spartan & Gates of Troy), after he had read a post by me about upcoming fantasy TBS titles (or the lack thereof). I haven't played Legion and Spartan, but the reviews of these didn't look too exciting. Has anyone played and enjoyed them?

I actually realised today that I had skipped Civ3 when it came out three or so years ago. Was recovering from a Civ2 addiction. Since that game is now in the bargain bin, I'll probably get a copy.

Why can't CotN be ready and rescue me?

[Anguille]

Originally Posted by Cironir

Earlier today, Iain McNeil of Slitherine inquired in the Usenet newsgroup comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic if there'd be interest in fantasy-themed versions of their historical TBS games (Legion, Spartan & Gates of Troy), after he had read a post by me about upcoming fantasy TBS titles (or the lack thereof). I haven't played Legion and Spartan, but the reviews of these didn't look too exciting. Has anyone played and enjoyed them?

I haven't tried the previous games as i didn't have a good feeling about them. I have played the demo of Spartans and i think that their games are achieving a good level now. I'll be buying Spartan & Gates of Troy. I am pretty sure their next game may interest a broader audience.

Originally Posted by Cironir

I actually realised today that I had skipped Civ3 when it came out three or so years ago. Was recovering from a Civ2 addiction. Since that game is now in the bargain bin, I'll probably get a copy.

Why can't CotN be ready and rescue me?

CIV3 is a very good game...be sure to download the patches.

[EmperorJay]

Be sure to get Civ3: Conquests too, that offers multiplayer and a dozen of extra civilizations etc.

[vovan]

Originally Posted by NeilV

And I am still managing to stay a geek as I have 5 PC's but no cool console

Pfft. Consoles are evil. Evil I tell you!

[vovan]

Originally Posted by EmperorJay

Be sure to get Civ3: Conquests too, that offers multiplayer and a dozen of extra civilizations etc.

Indeed. If anyone's up for a Civ3: Conquests PBEM game, PM me, and we'll set something up.

[Cironir]

For some strange reason, "Conquests" is not available in Germany. I tried various stores, they all said there were "delivery difficulties", but didn't have any information beyond that. It is not a problem to get the base game, the "gold" pack, or the "Play the World" expansion, it's just "Conquests". Odd. Anyway, maybe it's a temporary problem. Civ3 was just fifteen bucks, and since I rarely play strategy games online or via email, I think it'll do. (Okay, expect me to be franatically searching for the expansion in a few weeks!)

[EmperorJay]

Don't buy Play the World, Conquests includes PTW so that will really be a waste of money.

That's why I recommend buying Conquests anyway, regardless if you play MP or not. It contains the additions of 2 expansion packs.

Edit: Of course that doesn't help if you can't buy it Amazon.de does offer it it seems though.

[Keith]

Citybuilders is a small genre but has a loyal following. After all, its all we have! I think as more people get older they will tire of the FPS genre and start looking for something else. The FPS games are aimed mostly at the adolescent male with short attention spans.

There are quite a few TBS games out there as you can see in the messages above. Another one using turns, is the successful Combat Mission series of WW2 games. Each player gives orders to his units during the "mutual planning" phase then they are carried out during the "mutual execution phase" of the game simultaneously for both sides. The old "I go then you go" type turn games may be a thing of the past, but the system used by Combat Mission seems to keep people interested.

I have Legion and found it a little on the dull side to answer a querry above. It uses turns and a combat screen with 3D terrain. You have to setup your cities to produce the right amount of resources to start producing a certain type of military unit. Once that unit is produced you have to slowly move them from that city on the province map to a frontier area turn by turn until you collect enough units to be wage effective combat against the barbarian in the next province. It was this slow moving of units "x" number of spaces per turn slowly to the frontier that proved very tedious. The battle has a setup phase. You select the location, speed, and formation for each unit of your "legion" before the attack. Once the attack starts the two sides move forward until engaged on a 3D style terrain. The battle is over when one side is either wiped out or the one side routes and retreats. The lack of control during the battle is a bit frustrating. Chariots and Spartans are supposed to be better but I'm not convinced.

I personally don't find the popular Civilization 3 interesting at all. I found it to be one the biggest "snore-fests" I've ever played.
http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/horus2.gif
Keith Heitmann a.k.a Nuthinkhamun
Listen to the music of the CityBuilders while online:
Caesar III Music Player•Pharaoh Music Jukebox•Zeus Music Jukebox•Emperor's Music Box•Children of the Nile & Quiz

[Azeem]

The same thing kind of happened to PC RPGs. They went under for a while and then suddenly resurfaced with many new RPGs and innovations. I think all genres undergo a sort of "recession" before they re-emerge. Trends are often very cyclical in nature.

As for turn-based fantasy, there's another one that hasn't been mentioned here yet - Dominions II. It has dated graphics and weak sound, but it is a very intriguing turn-based fantasy game.

[Cironir]

I have a copy of Dominions II, but I can't seem to get into it. It's the first game I encounter that I feel might be too complex for me. I still plan to defeat the learning curve some day, but it is really steep.

[Anguille]

Originally Posted by Keith

Citybuilders is a small genre but has a loyal following. After all, its all we have! I think as more people get older they will tire of the FPS genre and start looking for something else. The FPS games are aimed mostly at the adolescent male with short attention spans.

There are quite a few TBS games out there as you can see in the messages above. Another one using turns, is the successful Combat Mission series of WW2 games. Each player gives orders to his units during the "mutual planning" phase then they are carried out during the "mutual execution phase" of the game simultaneously for both sides. The old "I go then you go" type turn games may be a thing of the past, but the system used by Combat Mission seems to keep people interested.

I have Legion and found it a little on the dull side to answer a querry above. It uses turns and a combat screen with 3D terrain. You have to setup your cities to produce the right amount of resources to start producing a certain type of military unit. Once that unit is produced you have to slowly move them from that city on the province map to a frontier area turn by turn until you collect enough units to be wage effective combat against the barbarian in the next province. It was this slow moving of units "x" number of spaces per turn slowly to the frontier that proved very tedious. The battle has a setup phase. You select the location, speed, and formation for each unit of your "legion" before the attack. Once the attack starts the two sides move forward until engaged on a 3D style terrain. The battle is over when one side is either wiped out or the one side routes and retreats. The lack of control during the battle is a bit frustrating. Chariots and Spartans are supposed to be better but I'm not convinced.

I can't talk about Legion nor chariots of war very well, but i think that Diplomacy, research and trade have greatly been inhanced in Spartan, even the battles have more options (i hope they keep on working on that aspect)...try the demo, you can do all the tutorials and try to campaigns (30 turns).
http://www.slitherine.co.uk/spartan/SpartanIndex.htm

[Hanarky]

"For some strange reason, "Conquests" is not available in Germany."

Cironir, I had no problems to buy it in my game shop. Usually they have everything, and what they do not have, they will get on demand.
www.pcfun.de - there you can order it online too.

I do not think, CB is dying out. But I do think, that many people do not know about them. When I hadn't installed a Pharaoh Demo out of pure boredom years back, I probably wouldn't even know, that this genre exists. There is not much advertising or articles in game magazins contraire to FPS and RTS and usually you find them somewhere in the back shelves in a pc shop. Also due to the nature of CB games, there is not a big online community like in the more mp-oriented games and so it looks, as if only few people actually play them.

I enjoy FPS games a lot, but there the main goal is to kill everything out of your way and story or complexity is nothing, that matters much. When playing a CB or strategy game, I very much appreciate a good story and complex interactions.
Now with all this readings about CotN, I have started to play Pharaoh again, lol. And it is never ending fun

Hanarky