Thoughts on new market range

[Grexes]

I'm wondering what the thought process was behind the market 2xlevel change...if the thought was to help new and low level players find things on the market, perhaps there is a better way.

I think if the market range was 3+level, or maybe 2+level, new players would still have a large enough range and high level markets wouldn't have access to half the game. This way markets would stay more local, preserving one of the major attractions for me, that of being able to plant a city in different areas and deal in different market conditions.

What do you all think?

[Grexes]

Or maybe an even better solution would be to REVERSE the formula for SELL orders. Make the determination whether or not you can see a SELL order based on the market level of the SELLER, not the buyer. That way, a new player would see the exact same market as any other player in their nome, and players serious about selling on the market could increase their range directly.

I would leave the buy order functionality unchanged, that way the most number of players would be able to see a new player's buy order.

[kach]

Or maybe an even better solution would be to REVERSE the formula for SELL orders. Make the determination whether or not you can see a SELL order based on the market level of the SELLER, not the buyer. That way, a new player would see the exact same market as any other player in their nome, and players serious about selling on the market could increase their range directly.

I like the sound of that, but it is probably harder to implement.

I don't feel that the increased market range has been beneficial - to me anyway. It has removed much of the fun of market arbitrage. To benefit from price differences now, you'd probably need to have your cities 24 hours apart, not just 6 or 7 hours.

[Tahngarth]

I agree - reverse the formula as increased buyer range is not as good as increased sell range..

[tomnobles]

I like it the way it is. I don't have to invest in a ton of bricks to upgrade it. Well... maybe that isn't a good statement, because it's still level 3 and probably always will be.

[roboczar]

Originally Posted by tomnobles

I like it the way it is. I don't have to invest in a ton of bricks to upgrade it. Well... maybe that isn't a good statement, because it's still level 3 and probably always will be.

Well that explains some of the weirdo sell orders I've seen you put up there.

[tomnobles]

I get kinda strange when I start to run out of bread.

[Cicero]

My thoughts: The scribe wall where you can see everybody on the Nile destroys the purpose of the Market.

It is not necessary to level up the market at all, really, since you can advertise your wares on the scribe wall. You can see the entire Nile. Who needs a market?

If you want to make the market more functional, I suggest tying the scribe trade wall to the level of the market. If you can see 10 nomes in either direction due to the level of the market, then your scribe trade wall should also be limited to the same. This would simulate the "reach" of your market power and encourage players to level up their markets.

Also, eliminate limestone from the market altogether. Limestone is supposed to be a rare and valued resource which is gathered only after you make the effort to raise an army and capture a monument. In our nome, limestone is on the market at 30/per (which is really cheap when you consider the number of units necessary to capture and sustain limestone quarrying). If players can just sell it on the market for quick bread, it basically eliminates the need for military at all. Why bother? Just wait for it on the market; if you are patient, you will be able to buy some.

I have no problem with private trades via ship for limestone, that will be up to the players involved.

[Rama-Seph]

Limestone at 30 per is fabulously expensive: all the areas I can see have limestone for 10 or less. It's as common as sand, even cedar sells for more (sometimes).

If you remove limestone trading you take away the non-PvP path in the game, which some (quite a few) players will protest loudly. Even saying you can still private-trade it is more of an obstacle than many want. Also, many monument holders are selling it to help pay for the cost of holding the quarry. If limestone is precious (and based on current prices, and the relative ease of accumulating it, it's not particularly) then that can be reflected in the price, not in giving it special status as a non-sellable commodity.

[Cicero]

I'll agree with you that a player does need a way to pay for monument construction and selling limestone is a way to do that. I was trying to say that a patient player could ignore military altogether and still progress upward by buying it. (Perhaps a monument should be required to progress to a higher level! -That's another topic, though )

That is really my secondary point, though. My main point is I really do think the market's importance is vastly diminished by allowing the players to scan the entire Nile looking for trades on the scribe wall. Making the scribe wall a function of market level would encourage market upgrades and more trade locally. There really is no need to engage in "24 hour trading" when there are hundreds of players within the reach of a level 5 or 6 market.

Oh, BTW I checked the local market and the price of limestone has dropped dramtically.

[Caesar Clifford]

The scribe wall where you can see everybody on the Nile destroys the purpose of the Market.

There would be a majority of players who do not use the trade chat. Imagine if 3000 people all used it for even 30 minutes a day. It would be total chaos.

[Cicero]

I don't quite understand your comment there because it looks like total chaos now. I'm not suggesting that the scribe wall or the the market function any different than they do now, EXCEPT, that when you click on the scribe wall for trades you only see the posts within the range of your market(s).

[Czech Centurian]

I think the market range should go back to 1 not 2 as it is now.

[Deguar]

Originally Posted by Czech Centurian

I think the market range should go back to 1 not 2 as it is now.

Agreed, it might have minimally helped those up in 180-190s but there was at least one other fix i.e. make the first few levels of the market much cheaper.

But it has seriously destroyed prices with a sudden influx of double competition for every good and resource.

I deliberatly built Hetephinushr and Rakheben 10 nomes apart to take advantage of the fact that with two level 5 markets I would have a 20 nome effective range and I was planning on doing something similar with Rawaset fortunately I decided to go further out. But from 39N-90N prices have collapsed completely on the market and you find yourself waiting up to 3 hours now on goods being delivered.

What really, truly annoys me is this. I have leather and bronze so I want to sell sandals and sculptures, after all they are what make me unique. But with doubled competition and rampant undercutting it is simply not worth my time to make a pair of sandals I will get 3-4 bread profit from when I can get double that from selling leather and baskets using the same workforce. Almost everyone I see on the market ends up selling pottery, baskets, bricks, wheat just to eke out a survival which increases competition even further for those, which drives down the prices further for those.

Deguakay
Hetephinushr of Raka (59N) Sandals and Leather
Rakheben of Amunsesh (49N) Sculptures and Bronze
Rawaset of Setger (80N) Jewelry and Gold

[Reed]

You also have double the potential buyers though, so isn't that a wash?

[Tahngarth]

but not many use the buyer feature. All I am saying is that upgrading the market confers no real advantage to somebody that wants to sell through the market, which for me is the main use of the market. It should benefit both those that want to sell and buy things using the market, rather than just those that want to buy

[drabk]

I agree upgrading your market should make your sales visible to more people, not just other people's more visible to you. 2 nomes above/below per level seems right to me.

I don't think scribe wall range restrictions would work though, now that it's established. Imagine trying to restrict it now... people would just migrate to an irc channel and trade nile-wide on it. So then you impose a maximum shipping distance? that would break existing trade relationships. I think the 24H limit should be raised to 48 or 72. Nile-wide trading is here to stay I think, but one could encourage market trading over shipping (which I am in favor of) by making markets better and shipping slower.

On a related topic, I feel like the 10% market tax should go towards something instead of just disappearing. Perhaps something like the sacrifice/blessing mechanic, where if enough market tax is collected from a given nome, market shipping times are slightly faster in that nome for a day. Again this ties in with making the market better to emphasize local trade.

[Czech Centurian]

I was selling Clay, reeds and wheat to survive and now everyone else is flooding their goods there.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by drabk

I agree upgrading your market should make your sales visible to more people, not just other people's more visible to you.

In a round-about way, you have made my point concerning the scribe wall. A player can avoid the limits of a low-level market by going to the scribe wall and broadcasting his/her desire to buy and sell or trade. In effect, we have a created ancient Egypt with modern advertising technology!

I don't in any way want to restrict trading. If you can do a deal with someone 100 nomes away, go right ahead. You "pay" for that deal by having to wait for it to complete. But I just wanted to point out that the scribe wall negates the unique need for a market in your city. In my second city, I managed to trade and deal without a market until I had a level 5 palace.

Each unit/building in the game should have unique advantages and disadvantages. I see the scribe wall blurring that distinction with the market and just wanted to point that out with respect to game balance. There are restrictions to the market (range). There is no restriction to the scribe wall and it duplicates the function of the market. I see a lot of bread exchanging hands on the scribe wall along with other goods.

[drabk]

It's not completely useless, in that you can put up standing buy and sell orders to trade for you while you're away, you can't do that on the wall.

I agree it's mostly superseded by the wall. Maybe players should have to build a market to read the trade wall Or the market should take on new abilities like speeding up your shipping times for a cost, or heck you could 'invest' bread or items into it as a gambling analog... lots of things could be done to make it a unique building.