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  #1  
Old 08-11-2009, 02:52 AM
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Fistleaf Fistleaf is offline
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Default How many farms are needed to feed the population?

As a rule of thumb, are 3 farms per 1000 people good enough? And add another farm for every 2 forts?
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  #2  
Old 08-11-2009, 04:22 AM
Herodotus Herodotus is offline
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All the productions and usage are fully tabled here:
http://caesar4.heavengames.com/

Study this and take the guesswork out of it
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Old 08-11-2009, 10:04 AM
Tinkerbell Tinkerbell is offline
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Originally Posted by Fistleaf View Post
As a rule of thumb, are 3 farms per 1000 people good enough? And add another farm for every 2 forts?
I don't play by spreadsheeting. I go by how empty my markets & granaries are (actually I ask the question "Are my people getting all foods?"). As long as everyone is getting their three types of food, I am a very happy camper.

I start every scenario with 2 cattle, 3 grain & 3 veggie farms. 2 fields/pastures each & always VERY close. Then I add more. Lots of markets & three dedicated granaries much closer to residences than to farms.

C4 is a food distribution challenge. It is not how much food you can produce, it is whether or not you can get the food to everyone. The amount you have in storage is not important at all. I can have totally happy people with empty farms, markets & granaries. What is important is to be able to empty farms & not have them fill up with food & stop working.

Last edited by Tinkerbell; 08-11-2009 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 08-12-2009, 10:30 AM
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I just feel safer if the granary and markets are half-filled with food. I try not to build too many farms/granaries/markets at the beginning, just build enough for the current population and add more later.
I think that it is easy to build lots of farms and infrastructure, no real strategy there but the real challenge is to build enough for the population and trading without overbuilding.
How much population are you planning for with your initial 2 cattle, 3 grain & 3veggie farms?
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:09 AM
Tinkerbell Tinkerbell is offline
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How much population are you planning for with your initial 2 cattle, 3 grain & 3veggie farms?
I don't go by population. That's spreadsheeting & I don't play that way.

My starting city is 18-24 insulae & 8 Domus. Number of insulae depends on how many starting jobs I need. I go to the Labor Advisor, divide the Pleb jobs by 70 (starting population of small insulae) & make sure I have placed that many. I spend almost all of my starting denari every time, except for the last 1000 dn to keep equites happy.

My initial goal is to open two trade routes & start those exporting industries before I ever go off pause. Of course, starting city has one of each service & full water.

Most export industires start mothballed, cuz it takes time for immigration. As immigrants enter the map, I start to unmothball those industries as food & services get up to speed.

Last edited by Tinkerbell; 08-12-2009 at 11:16 AM.
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  #6  
Old 08-12-2009, 12:25 PM
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Ok, although I don't understand what you mean by spreadsheeting. Dividing pleb jobs by 70, isn't that spreadsheeting? (70x24)+(8x40)=2000 population. 8 farms for 2000 people seems a bit excessive to me. IIRC I can support 2000 people + 6 forts with just 6 farms and some minor food imports.
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Old 08-12-2009, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Fistleaf View Post
Ok, although I don't understand what you mean by spreadsheeting.
LOL

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Dividing pleb jobs by 70, isn't that spreadsheeting?
Nope. That is just basic arithmetic. Populating residences is independent of distribution. Immigration comes until they fill.

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(70x24)+(8x40)=2000 population. 8 farms for 2000 people seems a bit excessive to me.
That is spreadsheeting. As I said in my post above, it is not how much food you make, it is whether you can get it distributed properly & this depends on how the Scenariomaker designed the map. Total food in storage just is not important & neither is food vs population.

"Storage" in C4 has a very specific definition. It does not include markets nor residences. As I said, I can have totally empty farms, granaries & markets (ie Storage = ZERO), but my people have TONS of food.

Food type is also important, not just total food.

Trade routes can also require food types. As do cohorts & they are not counted in population.

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IIRC I can support 2000 people + 6 forts with just 6 farms and some minor food imports.
I seriously doubt this, but even if so, I wonder why you even made this thread if you already claim to know the answer?

I play to make my people estatic, not minimalist. It is a City Building game, not a City not-Building game. You will find that TM games using the Pull System do not spreadsheet very well & that is why I love them. Classic CBs, much easier to spreadsheet.

...more is always better...

Good Luck with your spreadsheeting!

Last edited by Tinkerbell; 08-12-2009 at 02:07 PM.
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  #8  
Old 08-12-2009, 01:52 PM
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That's what I call "bean counting", when one calculates how many farms can support a population of "x" number of people, or how many people are served by a local shop or physician.

I am not a "bean counter" player. I just make frequent checks on my granary and bakeries to see how much supply they have on hand and keep an eye on the total amount in the resource menu to make sure I'm not using too much in trades with other cities. If I keep running low or run out I add more farms a little at a time until I'm satisfied with the result. I make sure that I have a sufficient number of scribes "assessing taxes" so that the coverage level is at "most fields are counted" or higher.
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  #9  
Old 08-13-2009, 10:28 AM
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I only "count beans" for things like population and farms. For industries, I don't really bother. It just seems easier to plan when I know how much space to reserve for buildings instead of finding out later that I need 1 more insula and have to chuck it in some remote corner. Of course, the easy way is to reserve plenty of spaces for expansion, but I don't like to play it that way. Building more is easy, surviving with less is more difficult. I like the challenge.
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  #10  
Old 08-14-2009, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinkerbell View Post
LOL

I seriously doubt this, but even if so, I wonder why you even made this thread if you already claim to know the answer?
I am finding out the answer by trial and error, if the answer is already available then I don't need to do that.
I rechecked my city and the 6 farms (+20 loads of imported vegetables per year) actually support 1700 people & 6 forts. Not too bad and nobody is starving.
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  #11  
Old 08-14-2009, 10:40 AM
Tinkerbell Tinkerbell is offline
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I rechecked my city and the 6 farms (+20 loads of imported vegetables per year) actually support 1700 people & 6 forts. Not too bad and nobody is starving.
Game save, please. I learn by seeing how others play & it looks like you use a totally different strategy than I do.

Last edited by Tinkerbell; 08-14-2009 at 02:16 PM.
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  #12  
Old 08-14-2009, 11:08 PM
Trium Trium is offline
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From a bean-counter's perspective 6 forts consume 115.2 loads per year, plus 1700 (non-patrician) population eating 217.6 loads makes 332.8. Allowing for 20 imports, six farms with two fields apiece need to produce a full harvest every 2.3 months to keep up.

That would require a pretty efficient farming and distribution system.

You can't be very precise in quantifying farm production because so much depends on the field arrangement, the distances from fields to farms and the efficiency of carts getting stuff out of the farmhouses, but I'd expect a typical wheat/veg farm to support around 300 non-pats, 200 patricians or 2 forts. I'd therefore expect that your city is likely to have food shortages - unless, of course, some of those farms are cattle farms and/or you have Ceres level 3 (which you probably don't on that pop).

Generally speaking, the numbers supported per farm will be lower as the population increases because as the farming system gets larger more time is spent walking between fields and farms.
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  #13  
Old 08-15-2009, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinkerbell View Post
Game save, please. I learn by seeing how others play & it looks like you use a totally different strategy than I do.
The campaign scenario was Hippo Regius, I checked my quicksaves and I only have one quicksave on Narona and the rest on Carthago. The autosaves are all for Carthago. Sorry, I don't have any game save.

I try to build the fields very close to the farms. Occasionally, an insula may run out of food, but they don't get angry for quite a while since the other needs are satisfied. Maybe that translates to some food savings since they don't consume for some time. Also the farms are built before the population is filled up, so there is some buffer too.
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  #14  
Old 08-23-2009, 03:30 PM
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Really it is very hard to quantify exactly what you need to feed everyone. A lot depends on what you want to achieve?

To just barely keep them fed requires less than if your looking for perfect nutrition.
A lot depends on the distribution system, not just the supply.
Of course if you can set up the farms next to the fields and the granaries next to the farms and the markets next to the granaries then you require less because transport time is minimal. it is not always possible to set everything up close and you really need to watch the cartpushers to see how well they are doing keeping everything stocked.

I almost always overproduce food and have many food markets and usually one granary per food type, per market (1 market, 3 granaries, 6 farms, 12 fields) with everything close, I tend to keep the granaries near the markets and will increase the number I use if the distance is far to the farms.

Someone here one time in the past made a nice graph which was something like the following.

Presuming your distance is from Market to field, spacing like this...
Market ++ Granary ++++++ Farm ++++++++ Field

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  #15  
Old 08-26-2009, 08:30 AM
Trium Trium is offline
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Well, everyone will have their own preference, but I prefer my granaries closer to farms. Obviously, part of a granary's function is to assist in moving food part-way along the overall journey from fields to houses but they also help to keep production going by preventing farmhouses from filling up.

For crop farms, each farm has a capacity of 8 units of food, but they can overstock and store 10 units if and only if a second harvest of 5 units sets off for the farm while the first harvest is still in transit. If the first harvest has already arrived (and not yet been removed by granary/market pushers) the second harvester will only bring in three units, leaving the other two behind. Those two units have to be harvested again, increasing the time taken to bring in the full harvest.

Cattle farms will not overstock. Each animal represents 3 units of food, so if a third animal is brought in (and the farm still holds the proceeds of the previous two) it will only be counted as two units, effectively losing one unit.

These losses and inefficiencies occur more frequently if it takes some time for carts to arrive at the farm after it first gets food. Consequently, granaries close to farms will tend to reduce those losses.

I often enforce the distribution system I want by not allowing markets direct access to farms. Granaries are connected to farms on one side and to markets on the other with no connection between the two road systems. This ensures that granaries do the job of gathering bits and pieces of food from here and there, leaving market pushers to draw on the consolidated bulk supply for greater cart efficiency. That works best with granaries closer to farms.
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  #16  
Old 08-26-2009, 09:43 PM
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Yep, that makes sense also based on your play style, that's the main reason where everyone has a different answer to this the most basic of questions. And the most important part is getting the people fed and not so much how it happens.

When I build for quick small population I don't use granaries at all just so I can save the labor. That requires the markets to be close to the farms and it works very well in that situation.

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  #17  
Old 08-26-2009, 09:55 PM
Tinkerbell Tinkerbell is offline
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Residences need food from markets. Having granaries next to farms makes the market cartpushers have to travel farther.

I use three dedicated granaries near to residences. This puts a lot of cartpushers out to farms & makes the market supply faster.

I am talking distance from residences to arable land here. We might be talking apples & oranges. If your farms are not far from residences, it doesn't matter where the granaries are placed.

In general, closer to residences is better.
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  #18  
Old 08-27-2009, 05:21 AM
Herodotus Herodotus is offline
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Don't place granaries too close to markets or you are paying the market workers to sit on their fat butts all day while the granary cartpushers are doing all the work
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Old 08-27-2009, 10:09 AM
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A granary near farms reduces food wastage from full farms whereas a granary near markets supplements (acts as a buffer to) the food distribution to the markets. Probably add one of each of these granaries and add more at the required locations.
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  #20  
Old 08-27-2009, 10:53 AM
Tinkerbell Tinkerbell is offline
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Don't place granaries too close to markets or you are paying the market workers to sit on their fat butts all day while the granary cartpushers are doing all the work
Absolutely! When I say near to residences, I mean on the residence side of the halfway point.
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