Lake problems

dreamsoftwilight · #1 12-07-2004, 06:37 PM

Why does the editor work making the river in reverse (flood, low, river bed), and gives persistent errors when you make the river correctly - logically when making a river you would carve out a channel for it and the high and low parts would be made afterwards - you dont get any errors?

I cant seem to make lake anything like that without geting the eternal model error! how did you guys make Voice of Sobek??

*nudges Matt*

Maybe you need to make a lake tutorial lol.

First time I tried it, I drew out the outer bank of the lake, using the specified elevations. No model errors.

The I drew the edge of the river facing the island (theres a huge island that makes the lake into a circular river basically). Model Errors.

Retried it, drawing both the island and the lake, then tested it, errors.

Drew the edge of the lake and the island using cliffs to mark it, errors Went ahead and dug out the low, flood and basin. ERRORS!!

While writing this out, I thought of something (and I have a nagging suspecion Im correct)... do I have to have an in and an out for the lake? Right now I just have an in, expecting (logically) that the lake would use the same opening to leave...

What I was wanting to do was have valley completely surrounded by mountains, except for the enterance to the lake... but if Im right, this wont be possible...

I wonder if the gods had this much trouble when creating stuff... lol

A goddess puts a cow and a ram together after making them, male and female of course. turns to another god...
"Hey! How come these critters wont mate?!"
The other gods looks over at the goddess and then at the creatures and says:
"You have the wrong species."
"Oh"

Keith · #2 12-07-2004, 06:57 PM

Try creating the basin of the lake and connecting it to the map edges with a river. Create the river using the button. Then raise the land where the river is and see what happens....don't recreate the river.

sitearm · #3 12-07-2004, 07:38 PM

I got model errors when I had water channels from two different edges that didn't ever connect to each other. But I could still load the scenario in the game.

I think the model trys to "hook" all the water channels together to make the surface ripples consistent etc. If true then just make sure all water channels are connected, even if just at a high flood (mud) elevation.

EmperorJay's "The Outpost" has a river on the bottom and a river on the top... but they are connected by a mud ditch that only floods at high inundation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamsoftwilight

...model error...

dreamsoftwilight · #4 12-07-2004, 08:41 PM

Well heres the uploaded fairly blank map (land and lake/river only). I did it in reverse-logical (lol)...

the basin is done at -8,0,60 (finger instead of meteor blast), with the flooding set to norm, then hit create river.

the flood plain is done at -2,89,60, and the flooding set to low I think.
What appears to be the river's edge (high flood), is done at -1,89,60, and I used the high flooding...

I used the tiny and small brushes to get the fine work or the larger areas.

Now with this set up, does it matter if there is model errors? All the part of the river are connected...

If anyone can get this to work without the errors, please upload it, and you'll have my undying thanks.

sitearm · #5 12-07-2004, 11:15 PM

Dreamsoftwilight: Took a quick look in editor and game. No water in the entry river either way. This is different than the model error case I had, because still had water.

The weird thing is there's water at the edges of the banks but not in the middle (screenshot). It's as if the carving done in the middle, or something between the middle and the edges, isn't computing. Only a guess but there may be too many layers (systems 22?) for it to calculate.

Hate to say it but you might have to redraw it from scratch

.

I think there IS a rationale to draw it with the high-flood-plain settings first, then normal-flood-plain, then gouge out the deep part last. I think it makes for smoother elevation changes within the riverbed and perhaps less things for the model to calcuate. It's a guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamsoftwilight

... here's the map... does it matter if there are model errors?

EmperorJay · #6 12-08-2004, 12:37 AM

You don't have to completely redo it. I've had the same problem all too often.

The problem was, *for me*, very tiny pieces of land that were too high. Those tiles with that height would normally flood, but because they are so tiny, they are the reason for the problems. Usually I wouldn't even notice them until I set the flood level to a very particular level. Then those "one tile islands" would become apparent.

So, play around with the height of the floodlevel in the editor and see if there are any unusual elevated tiles visible.

dreamsoftwilight · #7 12-08-2004, 02:02 AM

I think Im gonna give up on it, after one last try (tomorrow). And Ive redrawn the map 5 times already!

This last time I tried it I even used the terrain and coloured in the parts I was gonna have a different elevations... scrub for the basin, grass-to-mud for the high plains, and floodplain for the floodplain... AND saved each elevation under a different name.

I was wondering what all that working, layer 6, system 1 of 4 or whatever was about... I never encountered that when I was making the Tanis map...

Im having a suspicion that the island in the middle is making the editor not like the map for some reason, but even after I carved a -3 stream through the length of it, it didnt work...

So, if my nextr try tomorrow doesnt work, Im giving up on it, and not gonna bother... unless someone else makes a map like this...

Keith · #8 12-08-2004, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmperorJay

You don't have to completely redo it. I've had the same problem all too often.

The problem was, *for me*, very tiny pieces of land that were too high. Those tiles with that height would normally flood, but because they are so tiny, they are the reason for the problems. Usually I wouldn't even notice them until I set the flood level to a very particular level. Then those "one tile islands" would become apparent.

So, play around with the height of the floodlevel in the editor and see if there are any unusual elevated tiles visible.

I downloaded and played around with your file. I used your default land level settings and only played with the high and normal flood levels on the flood plains.

I have never had much luck using the levels they recommend in the editor manual. Using them always seemed like my high flood areas were always flooded during a normal flood.

So here is what I did to your map.

1. I removed the central island with -8 level riverbed.
2. I connected each side of the "lake" with a river to the map edge using -8 -100 100 elevation settings and a tiny brush.
3. I then nibbled away at the edges of the river to make very small streams of only one tile wide. You have to be careful and slow so you do not accidentally create a land bridge between the two sides.
4. Next, I used for the following elevation for the high flood plain, -1 100 100.
5. For the area that would flood normally I used -2 100 100. and painted that along the river and the lower edge of the high flood plain area.
6. I painted in the "flood plain" terrain onto the areas that will normally be flooded each year for you. The dark area between the grass and the flood plain mud terrain is your high flood area. You can paint in whatever terrain you want there.
7. I then made the first save below. I tested it and watched the flood. It works as is.
8. I then removed one stream from the map by overpainting it with elevation 0 100 100. I tested it and it works. I tried removing the other stream and although the "model OK" came up when I ran it the water disappeared from the lake!!! So you need at least one river/stream connection to the map edge.

Between all these steps or changes in elevation I used the CREATE RIVER button before testing and then saving the file.

The first file is the one with two streams connected to the lake. The second is the file with only one stream connected.

Matt Zimmitti · #9 12-08-2004, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamsoftwilight

I was wondering what all that working, layer 6, system 1 of 4 or whatever was about... I never encountered that when I was making the Tanis map...

Im having a suspicion that the island in the middle is making the editor not like the map for some reason, but even after I carved a -3 stream through the length of it, it didnt work...

The only time you end up seeing that "Layer #, system # of #" is when the river generator is having a tough time with a section it is trying to create.

I agree that island in the middle is prolly what is choking the create river button. I would suggest using Keith's files as a starting point then pull the island up from the middle of the lake. In the original file, the water areas are pretty darn thin. I think if you make the island a little smaller you should have better luck.

dreamsoftwilight · #10 12-08-2004, 06:23 PM

*hugs Matt, Kieth, Sitearm, and EmperorJay*

Kieth I used your revision of my map And tthen used the 100/100 settings and made the island, and everytime I clicked create map, it worked! No errors! The generator did have a bit of a tough time though Matt, even though the island has lost about 25% of its orginal mass... but the island is a necessary part of the map... without it it just wouldnt be the same.

You shall get christmas cards!

hehe

Keith · #11 12-09-2004, 04:14 AM

I'm glad my file helped. It went through those "layer" statements when I created the river on my system too. I did have a few points where the addition of a new terrain to a model that was previously OK did produce Model Error messages when I used the create river button again. At that point I just reverted back to a previous save and gave it another go.

dreamsoftwilight · #12 12-09-2004, 11:40 PM

God that took an aweful long time! But I finally got the cliffs done for the river sides, and the little harbour... and I disguised the tiny high flood river as a swamp so that it looks like there is only one river connected to the lake.

Still have to do all the larger cliffs though. It would be neat to be able to make a small island and have it spiral up to a level surface so you could put a statue at the top.

Which reminds me, why do I only see bases for some of the statues in the editor? O.o

Keith · #13 12-10-2004, 01:44 AM

You can delete the second river entirely as I did in my second save file that I uploaded above. I just used 1 100 100 and painted over the longer of the two rivers. As long as there is one river connecting the lake to the map edge the editor is happy.

Matt Zimmitti · #14 12-10-2004, 07:03 AM

I'm curious about one tiny thing that may become an issue down the road. You may have to make sure that all your trade comes in by land. Just to be safe, I would strongly advise you make a couple of world level test sites (one land route and one water route) to make sure the world doesn't explode when traders try to get to your city.

Just a thought.

dreamsoftwilight · #15 12-10-2004, 04:43 PM

You know what would be nice to have? River Exit and Entrances like in Pharoah, it would remove alot of this hassle... same goes for emigration and imigration points. =)

So you think that a barge might try an enter through the large river and exit through the swamp? hehe. That would be amusing... for all of 5 seconds.

dreamsoftwilight · #16 12-10-2004, 08:04 PM

So heres my finished map (as in the cliffs and stuff are done)! It has barge landings marking the spots where they can be put... the land needs to be evened out and stuff so I can place buildings and such. Everything else needs to be done though.. I just wanted to show it off so far.