Elements from Caesar 2

[Caesar Constintine]

I very much (Still) enjoy Caesar 3, but Caesar 2 had some interesting ideas, which may nice to atleast think about:
Provencial level- building things in your provence to help benefit and protect your city, but it would also be great to interact with your neighboring cities in a way similar to later games.
Pitched battle- The battle mode is something very cool, there is just something about having 10,000 representive troops marching against an invading nation.

Any more?

[Keith]

Yes, I agree. I've mentioned these myself before. I liked the Caesar 2 empire map particularly with all its provinces to choose from.

I enjoyed the C2 battle screen, although it was problematic on some computers and would cause the game to crash for some players. I was fortunate and the the battle screen worked without a hitch for me. It was interesting to setup your troops in formation and move them about during the battle, pausing when needed, then continuing on. I was sorry to see that go in Caesar III. If they could combine the same setup and battle control features on the normal game map that would be fine with me.

I miss the large formations of troops.

As for the province map screen, they could probably just combine it with the city level map screen as they did in Caesar III and all the later games. I don't miss that quite as much as the battle screen.

There's a lot in Caesar 2 that people that never played missed out on in the later games.

Keith Heitmann
Listen to the music of the CityBuilders while online:
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[prof786]

tell me something.
what's the difference b/w the province and the city map?
how many different cities can be in a province?
what could you build in a city-province map?
how are these two entities are connected physically?
i'll come up with some more later...

[Cartpusher]

I miss the province map, too. C3 seemed cramped compared to the scale of C2. In C3 I never got comfortable with having the invasion show up on my doorstep. I know we had warnings and the empire map showed the progress of the invading force, but it wasn't the same as having far flung legions come together somewhere away from the city to intercept the invaders.

I want neighboring villages in every scenario with an expansion of the missionary function. After he walks around a bit, he'll start asking for improvements for the village, and I'll have to decide whether the requested improvements advance my goals. The final step will be a road connection that will establish the village as a trading partner. Scenario victory conditions may require that one or more villages be added to the road network to succeed. If you try building the road too soon, the villagers rise up, kill the missionary, destroy your improvements, tear up the road, and you get to start over.

[Cartpusher]

Originally Posted by prof786

tell me something.
what's the difference b/w the province and the city map?
how many different cities can be in a province?
what could you build in a city-province map?
how are these two entities are connected physically?
i'll come up with some more later...

The city map was much like C3, but not as detailed. It only represented a part of the province, though. You were able to switch to a province map that showed the location of your city (only one per province), some other villages, the natural resources, and maybe some other features that I don't recall. it was all abstract, however.

Part of the strategy was laying out a road network at minimum cost, that would connect the towns and resources with your city, and help your legions to move around. Movement for them was significantly faster on the roads. Connecting the villages with your city was a good thing, but I don't recall what the benefits were or how they were measured. Connecting the resources was necessary for obvious reasons. The farms were out there, too, and needed to be connected by roads.

The connection was that the city map was a square within the province and the scale was different. Two separate maps with one representing more detail of a portion of the other. I remember being confused by C3 when I was taken to a square map that was my province. I kept looking for the rest of it.

[Keith]

The province screen showed the entire province that you selected from the empire map. This is not too dissimilar to the maps in Caesar III, however the scale was different. Cities, native villages, any cohort forts you built, defensive walls, roads, industry & farms you placed, trade posts, and harbors all appeared on this map in small scale. You had to connect your cities, farms, harbors, industry and pacified native villages back to your city with roads to encourage trade and econimic growth in your city.

Once in a while native villages would rise up and attack your other cities or your city. You had to move your cohorts out of their forts to a point near them as they moved about the province map to engage them in a battle. Foreign enemies would cross your borders or arrive by sea. You could sink their ships before they landed to stop them or fight them on land by moving your cohorts into position next to them. A defeated enemy or native tribe would vanish from this map. Native villages were pacified by attacking them and winning the battle. They would eventually become Romanized and contribute to trade and grow.

Once a battle was joined the player could let the game autoresolve or take control. A new screen was loaded which depicted a flat and level battlefield with the enemy on one side and the legions on the other. You could move sections of you troops around and give them marching or fighting orders. Slingers threw rocks, and had a zone of effect grid pattern that you moved about infront of your battlelines. This was the area that they would attack in the battle. When the enemy entered it the slingers would begin throwing their rocks. You had legionaries and cavalry, and sometimes even Mercenaries if you were able to hire them. A cohort could be any size in number and could grow to more than 1,200 men. Of course, the number was abstracted down for graphic purposes but you could see several hundred men in a legion that was 1,200 men, which is certainly more interesting to fight with than the 16 men of the later games.

The enemy would have various types of troops too depending on who they were, from heavy and light infantry, to archers and cavalry, and in the case of the Carthaginians...elephants.

Once you were set you started the battle. The two sides would move towards each other, depending on your orders and the computer AI and fight. The battle was one or lost when one side lost all its morale, broke and ran.

If you won the enemy would vanish from the pronvice map. If you lost your cohort was put back in its home fort to recruite and train more men, which would take a long time. If you had another cohort nearby you could start another battle. If not, the enemy would move towards your city to invade it destroying things that they came near along the way. You could delay them for a time with a defensive wall and towers, but the enemy would only be delayed not stopped. After a short siege they would eventually break through the wall and continue moving.

The city level map is where you built your city, as in Caesar III. This is where you placed roads, houses, and all the buildings and things like reservoirs aquaducts and fountains. All the buildings had zones of influence and the more zones you overlapped the more appealing that overlapped area became, except in the case of things like industry which were a negative influence.

If a enemy got to your city they would appear at the city level map edge and move toward your city. If they got in they would destroy what they came near. You could stop them with city guards, which required a barrack and towers to generate.

Occasionally your guards would have to put down citizen riots that did damage to your city. You had to meet similar mission ratings as you did in Caesar III to win the mission.

Keith Heitmann
Listen to the music of the CityBuilders while online:
Caesar III Music Player•Pharaoh Music Jukebox•Zeus Music Jukebox•Emperor's Music Box•Official Pharaoh/Cleopatra Walkthroughs•Official Zeus/Poseidon Walkthroughs•Children of the Nile Musicbox•Children of the Nile & Quiz•Visit PlanetNile

[Cartpusher]

Great description, Keith! Much better than my feeble effort. I had forgotten about a lot of what you described.

It still bothers me that the C3 "provinces" are squares. I know that the effective area has an irregular border, but it just doesn't feel the same.

[Keith]

Here are the music files from Caesar II, which should bring back some fond memories. You'll need a player like the Miles Sound Player, to play the XMI format files. You can get the program free at www.radgametools.com.

[vovan]

Originally Posted by Keith

Here are the music files from Caesar II, which should bring back some fond memories. You'll need a player like the Miles Sound Player, to play the XMI format files. You can get the program free at www.radgametools.com.

Plebs are needed!

Like I mentioned in a different thread, I dug up the old copy of C2, and ran it on my computer... Now, I don't know if this is because the game times some of its stuff based on processor speed or what, but all the animations and sounds, including of course the famous "plebs" bit, play at the rate of like a billion times a minute. The nonstop "plebs are needed" chanting is enough to drive you mad. Mad!



Certainly is interesting to check back into the old days of gaming though.

[Pontius Pilatus]

I must have played Caesar2 in impossible mode for a few dozens of times.
I liked this imaginary rival governor Pompous Maximus, that during the game claimed one of the other provinces and at the end had his mark on about half the available provinces in the empiremap. HOWEVER, I remember being very disappointed at the moment I finally became da Caesar. There was nothing spectacular or climactic about it(the ability to play the remaining outer provinces was a meagre treat).
Now for my suggestion: why not reintroduce this carreer by playing chosen provinces from an empiremap like in C2, but with a climactic struggle for the throne with the endearing Pompous Maximus as a fitting endgame.
I was thinking of counting the provinces the player conquered as loyal and the agregate of troops and money from them available to make a bid for the throne(message says: our beloved emperor fell off a balcony and became a god, your presence is needed in Rome as the usurper Pompous Maximus is heading for it with all his barbarian renegades that dare call themselves legions of the empire. You must save the Roman way of life and take the throne).
Anybody in for something like it?