<3 the pause button

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Malandra
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&lt;3 the pause button

Postby Malandra » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:36 pm

I seem to spend quite a lot of time with my game on pause, particularly in the very beginning. I like planning things out (where stuff will go in particular), putting part of it in place, then unpausing and seeing how things unfold.

Now, I've done okay so far. I won't claim that my cities are the best (they're certainly not as organized/rigidly structured as some of the screenshots I've seen - particularly the farming areas), but I've yet to be overthrown and typically my people are as happy as they ever are (meaning some are unhappy, but that's life).

Here's my questions:

1) do you use the pause button to build/plan?

2) if you do, how many buildings do you put down initially?

I've read through several threads about this (including this one), but I'm curious to see what folks have to say about it now (I think that post is pretty old). The only thing I'm really wondering about is the initial building process - not the stuff that comes after you unpause.
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Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:09 pm

Howdy, Malandra!

"Malandra" wrote:I seem to spend quite a lot of time with my game on pause, particularly in the very beginning. I like planning things out (where stuff will go in particular), putting part of it in place, then unpausing and seeing how things unfold.


I pause & plan much more with Caesar IV. Actually, most of C4 is played on pause. ;) Much less with SimCity Societies.

1) do you use the pause button to build/plan?


Absolutely! Load then immediately pause, make a city name save. Look around for quarries & the best floodplain. Pick my spot for my city as close to the center of the map as possible with the above in mind.

2) if you do, how many buildings do you put down initially?


The following can decrease a bit if scenario begins with less than 100 villagers...

Roads ~ I use the CTRL-G to turn on gridlines. Two sections ~ Nobles & Farmers separated by Worship Row of 14 shrines, Health Center & Cult Temple on one end. None of this is placed. Just the roads. I am outlining squares where future buildings will go.

Noble Section

Palace
4 Nobles ~ 2 on wheat (rest will be 1/3 wheat)
6 lux shops & 4 common for Palace Nobles
Education Center ~ School, Dedicated Education Priest, Bakery, Papyrusmaker
3 Entertainers
6 Servants

Farm section ~ a bit away from floodplain to not cover up clay sprites. New building will be toward the river to fill in this space after I find all the clay sprites.

16 common shops
12 brickmakers
1 brickyard
8 bricklayers
2 bakeries
22 farmers at least

Then I unpause & let er rip! I am watching villagers move in & following pottery, sculpture shops & especially brickmakers to see where they go for clay. I place a Plaza tile over each clay sprite to remind me not to build there.

No new buildings placed until all of this is complete. Then Health buildings & when complete, then Worship (but not Cult Temple yet, that much later). Along here I am also adding a mortuary & court.

Hope this helps (& I haven't forgotten anything or you git an edit)!
Last edited by Tinkerbell on Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:24 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Malandra
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Postby Malandra » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:49 pm

3 entertainers! How do you keep them all happy with only 4 nobles? I've only been putting down 1 for my first 4 - they seem to starve otherwise. Does the bakery usually get built before the first harvest with the other brick using buildings? I bet with 12 brickmakers it does.

How far back from the flood plain do you typically build?

Also, thanks for the tip on control-g - I wasn't aware of that one. :)
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Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:03 pm

Entertainers always get mad & some hit the road until Nobles get some food. Tough! ;) The buildings stay in the build, cuz eventually Nobles need them & I can forget until it is too late. It is better for Entertainers to become vagrants than for Nobles to get upset cuz I forget & stop evolving or worse, class dissatisfaction & hit the road costing me farmers & FOOD!

Entertainers will come back & early vagrants find homes while city is growing.

Please keep in mind that I play on Hard & I only have two years before my people start screaming for Health & Worship. My basic city is complete very quickly. The start build I just gave you has almost no brickbuilding (but eats up villagers like crazy). My start city is designed to produce food quickly & create a massive brickbuilding operation. Overkill if you will.

Let's say 6-8 tiles? Most scenariomakers place clay near the floodplain. I just stay away from that area for awhile. It will fill in with more farmers & some Pretty eventually.

EDIT: What you didn't ask, Malandra. I early overkill on common shops in my farmer section. This is cuz I believe childbirth comes from food & common wares & also shops need time to find resources & ramp up. The bad news is that common shops really eat up villagers & the farmers they come from. Happenz. :D

I don't really care about the first harvest, cuz villagers are moving into farmers & immediately leave for higher class homes. I want this bumpyness over quickly. My people can forage or go to the Threshing Area for awhile.
Last edited by Tinkerbell on Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:31 pm, edited 6 times in total.

Malandra
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Postby Malandra » Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:07 am

I tend to end up with 28-32 common shops by the end - but you're definitely starting with more than I typically do! I'm real curious to try this out... I've been through the easy/medium cities in the Grand Campaign, going to do the hard ones next.
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Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:12 pm

"Malandra" wrote:I tend to end up with 28-32 common shops by the end - but you're definitely starting with more than I typically do! I'm real curious to try this out... I've been through the easy/medium cities in the Grand Campaign, going to do the hard ones next.


Yep, the beauty of COTN is that there are a zillion ways to play it. Everyone finds their own way & adds to the different cities we find posted. Don't forget to Continue Play past the Win Screen & complete the World Map.

Good Luck & Happy Gaming, Malandra! :)

Jimaaten
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Postby Jimaaten » Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:44 pm

"Malandra" wrote:1) do you use the pause button to build/plan?
Absolutely. I use the grid and layout all roads, leaving room for all my future expansion. If it gets confusing, I'll even use plazas and ornamentation to remind me what an area is for (since they are free). For example, I might place 4 bushes to remind me I was going to put a papyrus maker in a location or use plain plazas to denote where brickmakers are going. When I'm ready to place them I just delete them and place the building.

"Malandra" wrote:2) if you do, how many buildings do you put down initially?
I tend to try to control where the first laborers are going. I also don't like vagrants, so I try not to do things that make them (at least in my experience). I never place more farmers, for example, than the game can currently use because whenever I do it seems I get an "extra" farmer who gets thrown out and invariably becomes a vagrant. :o

Here's a build order for about the first year or so. I've including some thoughts on why I do certain things. Obviously, it's up to each of us to decide how we want to play. This works for me, but I like to take my time. ;) Also, I play the game on Normal.

Palace and 6 farms
3 nobles and 12 farms (4 for each noble you add)
1 set of 4 common shops by the farmers
1 set of 4 common and 6 luxury shops by nobles and palace
Servants equal in number to luxury shops and nobles

Servants are really important to a quick start. People only move into farms once the palace or nobles are almost done. They move into servants right away. Early in the game they will be moving in and out to better jobs that they won't get too upset about not having a lot to do. If they do, just delete the house. It's good to be pharaoh. :D

What I build next depends on if when the palace is built you get any bricks in the storage yard that comes with it.

If you do get bricks:

1 bricklayer (wait until someone is on their way there before building something else)

Since people have to move first into farms or servants huts (no laborers yet) before moving into other jobs, you don't want to add a lot of middle class profs that will drag people out of farms. You need a bricklayer though to build a bakery before the first harvest or you lose your share of that harvest.

Bakery (don't place any other structures requiring bricks until your layer starts building it)
School and Priest set to educate (if you have the bricks)
2-4 Brickmakers (try to place while farmers are working to prevent losing farmers)

When the harvest is distributed:
Another bricklayer maybe
More brickmakers
Entertainer (I always forget this one)

As bricks and elites become available:
Hospital and apothecary with priest set to healthcare
Shrines to the top 5 gods and priest set to tend gods
Scribe set to collect taxes
Gardener (I usually forget this too)

Add more nobles, farmers, bakeries, bricklayers, brickmakers and common shops as required.

Build papyrus makers and weapons only after the above elite services are in place.

If you don't get bricks in the palace storage yard, build at least 4-6 brickmakers. You want bricks ASAP to again build a bakery before the first harvest. After that, the order is roughly the same, starting with the bricklayer.

Malandra
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Postby Malandra » Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:18 pm

Jimaaten - that's very similar to what I have been doing, typically. The only difference would be that I generally only have 1-2 servants more than I have nobles - I don't typically have one for every luxury shop. I also usually put down brickmakers and layers even if I get some bricks in the palace storage.

I know that strategy (slow and careful) definitely works. :)

Oh - I've also noticed the problem with farmers turning into vagrants if you build too many houses. It seems like the villager AI checks to see if there are farms supported/available before they leave their house, but it doesn't check to see how many other villagers are also on their way to become farmers. As a result, you get extras - since they don't turn around and go home if the supported quota is met before they get there. I've been dealing with the 1-2 vagrants I get as a result, but it's an annoying side effect to building extra farms.

One other problem I've had with building extra farms at the start is that villagers just pick the house closest to them... which may not be where I want them initially.
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tomnobles
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Postby tomnobles » Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:39 pm

Having servants for luxury shops sometimes ensure the child will go to school. You always need graduates. If the shop has a child and no servant is available, the child helps with gathering materials for the shop. A servant will take the child's duties so he can go to school.

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Postby Tinkerbell » Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:38 am

I probably should have added one more difference to gameplay on Hard vs Normal. The Educated Worker/Prestige Table is quite different between the two difficulties.

Normal ~ Begins with 4 slots & a full Palace evolution gives you 8 slots

Hard ~ Begins with 3 & a full Palace evolution gives you 5 slots

To get the additional prestige for more Educated Workers on Hard (like a Scribe for more food), you need bricks for statues besides all the normal building.

Hence my massive brickbuilding operation quickly

Jimaaten
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Postby Jimaaten » Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:32 pm

"Malandra" wrote:The only difference would be that I generally only have 1-2 servants more than I have nobles - I don't typically have one for every luxury shop.
In the first year or so, the servants are really just a way to get villagers into middle class jobs without having to pull them from the farmers, who need to be growing food. :D I suppose you could actually place way more servants and then just delete a lot of them when jobs are filled. :p

That first year when there's little "money", the servants don't have a lot to do, but will easily move into open jobs. Once everyone starts to get established, they'll start to actually work. :) At this time, most of the shops will start using servants, leaving nobles without if there aren't enough servants. You can certainly do the game without servants (I did for quite a while), but they help a lot behind the scenes. Also, the more servants in the beginning the less farmers you lose to upgrading jobs. ;) If servants aren't being used (or you run out of villagers), you can delete a few servants to get them to move to other jobs.
"Malandra" wrote:I also usually put down brickmakers and layers even if I get some bricks in the palace storage.
I do too, but I hold off on placing them until I have a layer building the bakery. It needs to be built by the time the harvest is distributed. With all the shop openings, it may take a while to get the layer and it may be touch and go getting the bakery built in time. I also place the makers and layers when the farmers are in the field working so that the "new" families come from those servants.
"Malandra" wrote:I've been dealing with the 1-2 vagrants I get as a result, but it's an annoying side effect to building extra farms.

One other problem I've had with building extra farms at the start is that villagers just pick the house closest to them... which may not be where I want them initially.
Exactly. :D My farmer layout has become connected blocks of 2x5 where 8 spaces are for farmers and the 2 on the ends are for common shops. I layout roads with these blocks equal to the number of nobles I've decided on, plus one (for the palace). Then fill them in as the need increases, around the common shops. :)

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:45 pm

I am also a player who doesn't like to pre-place a zillion extra farmers. However, I will usually have a few extra to help coax farmer kids to move out.

If you run outta villagers & new farmers are not populating fast enough, try deleting all empty farmer's huts & unbuilt farmer plots & build new ones. It can help encourage kids to leave home!

If farmers build in vacant plots you don't like, just nuke em & they will move. It is nearly impossible to get a vagrant outta a farmer's hut. At worst, they will become villagers again. ;)

Jimaaten
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Postby Jimaaten » Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:06 pm

"Tinkerbell" wrote:It is nearly impossible to get a vagrant outta a farmer's hut. At worst, they will become villagers again. ;)
I always hate it when my game plays differently from yours. :p

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Postby Tinkerbell » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:21 pm

LOL

Well, if you delete a RED farmer, he might become a vagrant, Jim. ;)

Malandra
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Postby Malandra » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:18 pm

I get vagrants from farmers any time I set down too many farms, it seems... almost every time I've looked at a vagrant, their family history was villager-->farmer-->vagrant.

it goes like this:

set down 50 farms (say only 26 are supported)
get 27/50 farmers
number balances - back to 26/50, but now I have a vagrant

These vagrants don't seem to commit many crimes (I've followed them around for a while) and will generally move into a house if I add new jobs & delete their vagrant mat, but it's still annoying. :/
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Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:29 pm

Run a Lab for me, Malandra. Start with a happy city with no Red Alerts on your Admin Report.

Click on "farmers" on your People Report. Then hit delete. They will run around dazed & confused for about a year & settle down.

Tell me how many villagers you get & how many vagrants.

Malandra
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Postby Malandra » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:52 pm

Oh, I believe you on that part! I haven't gotten vagrants from deleting farmhouses - that wasn't what I was trying to describe. I was just saying that my vagrants seem to come from the farming population, even if I keep the farmers happy.
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Yahya
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Postby Yahya » Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:44 pm

I agree with Malandra on that. I always build the maximum number of plots I'll need, for zoning reasons, and because otherwise I'll forget to expand.

So, often when housing plots open up, I get more farmers than are needed at the time.

Lately what I have been doing when I notice this (and it is often, as the number turns red) is place another building that I need, that a farmer can move to. This stops the vagrant from appearing, usually.

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Postby Jimaaten » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:34 pm

"Tinkerbell" wrote:Well, if you delete a RED farmer, he might become a vagrant, Jim. ;)
I'm not talking about deleting farmers. I'm talking about the game over stocking the farmers' huts and automatically dismissing the extras. Sometimes they become vagrants when this happens. It happened enough that it changed the way I used to lay things out.
"Tinkerbell" wrote:Run a Lab for me, Malandra. Start with a happy city with no Red Alerts on your Admin Report.

Click on "farmers" on your People Report. Then hit delete. They will run around dazed & confused for about a year & settle down.

Tell me how many villagers you get & how many vagrants.
Not the same thing at all. The only thing I can think of that is close and we could control would be deleting the nobles. It isn't the same though.

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Postby Tinkerbell » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:23 am

"Jimaaten" wrote:I'm not talking about deleting farmers. I'm talking about the game over stocking the farmers' huts and automatically dismissing the extras. Sometimes they become vagrants when this happens. It happened enough that it changed the way I used to lay things out.


Somehow you all got confused by my previous post that only talked about deleting farmers & started to argue with something I did not post. Your quote of my post left out the important part of the paragraph
Me wrote:If farmers build in vacant plots you don't like, just nuke em & they will move. It is nearly impossible to get a vagrant outta a farmer's hut. At worst, they will become villagers again.


You wrote:Not the same thing at all. The only thing I can think of that is close and we could control would be deleting the nobles. It isn't the same though.


Now we are on the same wavelength.

Now, let's say your claim is true (I never have noticed it myself, so I am neutral on the claim).

1) How do you know the vagrant was the one who moved out & not just an angry farmer?

2) Wouldn't the most angry farmer be the most likely to move out anyway?


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