Noble Estate Size Changes?

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Jayzilla
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Noble Estate Size Changes?

Postby Jayzilla » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:33 pm

Hi all: this is my first question to you guys. :) I've fallen for this game, since i love sim city, i love the EE engine, and i'm a history minor at my college. ^^

anyways, i've got a rather nice city going on the 'great pyramid.' scenario (the pyramid is 42% done atm!). Anyways, to the question. Right now my max farms is 310, and i've got something like 10 small estates, 20-25 medium, and 15 large. my backup save which is before I built another 15-20 noble houses, and i'd let run for a while, had 30 large estates, and something like 250-260 max farms.

Basically, some of my noble's estates have shrunk from large to medium. And i'm not sure why. At first i thought the game capped at 300 max farms (which would be unfortunate), but that is certainly not the case.

If there isn't a quick obvious answer i'll upload some saves :)

*edit: could it be that i've built my servants to a 1:1 ratio? I just read that lux shops will sometimes steal servants, so maybe it's a servant shortage? also what ratio do you build entertainers? I usually build noble houses in blocks of 4-6, and inculde 1 entertainer for the bunch.

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:46 pm

Howdy, Jayzilla!

Nope. No cap on number of farmers except for evolution states of Noble Townhouses/Palace.

However, you need to count the fields at harvest & divide by three (each farmer should plant three fields) to make sure you have not run outta nearby floodplain. If a farmer has to walk too far, he cannot get to the Threshing Area by exactly 7:20 PM Shemu for the transfer to be at maximum yield for your people. Any extra is left in the TA & about 1/3 of it goes poof at exactly 3 AM each day. If farmers cannot plant the 3 fields to start with, your Nobles will suffer.

Lack of floodplain/distance can be a HUGE problem with lots of Nobles.

You will get more food if you set 1/3 of your Nobles on Wheat, rest on All Crops

Devolution could be caused by many different things. Lack of food to pay daily maintenance/upkeep fee on enhancements is the biggie. This will show with run-down looking enhancements on the townhouse, especially a pool that changes from blue to green. By far, most of your Noble food goes to this.

Other reasons could be lack of lux & common wares, then Alerts on each townhouse. Lux imports from Pedders will definitely help with lux wares, especially the import-only lux wares which will make up for missing the basic six. Servants will help here, but the wares have to also be available.

We might need to see a game save via Manage Attachments below the posting box to really figure out what is the exact problem.

Jayzilla
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Postby Jayzilla » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:17 pm

Ah, that sounds like it could be the problem: the farms created by my 300+ farmers are nowhere near 900. It's closer to 600.

I'll post a game save for some critque, just keep in mind that i didn't realy preplan anything, and i only figured out how to 'face' buildings 1/2 of the way through the scenario. so you'll see a lot of guys walking through other buildings, lol. Good thing I got the newest patch before i even started. (it is an alexandria one btw)
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Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:25 pm

"Jayzilla" wrote:Ah, that sounds like it could be the problem: the farms created by my 300+ farmers are nowhere near 900. It's closer to 600.


Definitely not good!

Downloading your save now. BRB :)

Jayzilla
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Postby Jayzilla » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:01 pm

Ah, yes, that definatly seems to have been the problem. I built a small farm community on the other side of the river, and happily watched my noble's estates grow.

After coming on here and seeing some more 'efficient' cities, mine definatly seems rather chaotic! But, for my second game i'm pretty happy to have all green lights on the high difficulty. Maybe my next city will be a bit more neat. ^^

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:15 pm

Howdy again, Jayzilla!

Save loads in year 55 of H1 Men-Nefer played on Normal Difficulty with Alexandria installed.

I'm so sorry it took me so long but I got totally absorbed with your save. It is exactly what I am looking for to Lab the difference between Alexandria & v1.3.01. I will be Labbing this save for WEEKS! ;) Thank you soooo much! :)

First of all, your city should be in revolt/overthrow & lots of pathing problems & stuck people, but it is not. This is a HUGE kudos to TM for having fixed a bunch of stuff first with v1.3.01 & more fixes with Alexandria. That is if we want the game to be easier (which I didn't, but I don't count. New Players DO!). TM promised to make the game faster & easier to pick up & play.

Mission Accomplished! :) :) :)

Now, I'm gonna rip yer city apart. Sorry. It will definitely help you in the future.

Your basic problem is FOOD. Both your city & Nobles ran out & there was no failed flood to blame. There are plenty of floodplains, but most of your farmers are waaay too far away from them. There are several floodplains & for all your farmers to plant 3 fields each, they have to do a LOT of walking. Part of this is due to TM making the map EVIL. :D It is the first scenario of the Hard campaign after all! ;)

The first year of your save, I got only 150/613 counted for 323 farmers or 1.90 fields/farmer. This is terrible. Try to only place your farmers near floodplains. You have some waay on the other side of your city.

After your farmers plant, they have to go back home to rest after Peret II planting season before they can go back during Shemu to harvest. Shemu is very short, the shortest season lasting from 6 AM to the critical time of 7:20 PM. Most of your farmers were able to do this. Only a few missed the 7:20 PM Shemu Harvest Transfer, which is good. However, they were not able to plant the necessary fields in the first place, cuz they were walking from one full floodplain to the next one. They try to use the closest floodplain first, even if it cannot hold all the fields. When they get there, they plant what they can, then they give up & go look for a new floodplain to plant field #2 & then #3. They ran outta Peret time to plant.

Your harvest was about 4300 food. You only have 6 bakeries (6 x 500 = 3000) & one granary (1 x 2000 = 2000) for a total storage space of only 5000 food. If your farmers had actually planted the 323 x 3 = 969 fields, you wouldn't have had storage space to accept all the harvest anyway. Now bakeries need time to make prepared food from raw harvest food, so you need mainly bakeries first & then granaries for what your bakeries do not hold. A bakery has XXX/YYY. X = prepared food, the only kind that Government workers can take. Y = raw harvest food & is basically usless to your people (but can still be used for World Map opens/upkeep). You need at least double the bakeries with a city this size. Bakeries for storage, not granaries. Granaries for overflow.

You have waaay too many lux shops. Most of your people don't need lux. Everyone needs common wares.

Now for your city build. Sorry, but it is a disaster. This is what it looks like TM has fixed with Alexandria. COTN used to have a wrongly turned brickworks problem where bricklayers would get stuck in their courtyards. This looks like it has been fixed with Alexandria. Well Done, TM, if this turns out to be true (More Labbing required)!!! Most wrongly turned buildings would still work, but not as well.

You have placed almost all your buildings in the default position. You really need to only build in x2 rows back-to-back. Every building has a front door as shown by the red arrow when you click-drag-release to the road or space to place. Every buildng should have a road or space in front of their front doors. The red arrow shows the direction your people will leave the building. This will speed up the pathing.

You need more intersections & eliminate cul-de-sac areas where people will try to go through buildings to get to the other side or have to go the looong way around. Mostly, they will succeed at this, but it causes delays. Dead end streets & passageways are not the best ~ more delays. Your people have a lot to do each day & distance or delays causes them to not be able to get all the work done. This is not Classic CBing where you want to have few intersections. Your people are very intelligent & know where to go! They just want a clear path.

Priests & Scribes need papyrus to function better & can walk all over the place to find some. You only have 3 & need many more.

You have a Graduate Crisis & this is due to no Dedicated Education Priest & papyrusmaker nearby. All Jobs Priests just will not cut it on Education. A city, especially an older city will have waves of massive retirements, so you need to always be waay ahead in graduates. Education Center = Dedicated Education Priest, School, Bakery, Papyrusmaker right next door.

You have a Health Red Alert on your Admin Report that never goes away. For a city this size, you need three Health Centers (which you have) but with All Jobs Priests, many are closed. Health Center = Dedicated Health Priest, Hospital, Apothecary, Bakery & Papyrusmaker nearby.

Your worship is inefficient, but works. You could do it better, using fewer Priests, if it was centralized. You have two undedicated shrines. A priest will never go to a shrine unless it is dedicated. Temples do not need to be dedicated & have a statue, but are pretty worthless w/o both. The Gods Thoth, Sobek & Set have no worship sites.

Personally, I don't like All Jobs anything, but be my guest. TM has improved this a lot with v1.3.01 & possibly more with Alexandria. All Jobs Priests now work well in small remote camps. However, in larger cities they can walk all over the place & have competition from the other Priests & this is innefficency.

You have a lot of Scribes & they are too bunched together & this results in wasting time double-counting fields. Spread them out for better counts & you will find that you need less of them. Scribes also need almost a personal bakery with lots of prepared food to remain happy.

Now, one thing that TM still hasn't fixed is wrongly turned lux shops with blocked doors. They still work for city people, but World Map Merchant Peddlers cause a very ugly bug to appear. This is the reason you have multiple tents/boats & stuck traders all over the place. Each World Map city will send a new one each year & they begin to pile up when last year's don't go home. Merchant Centers need a road or space around them.

Mastabas also need roads or spaces. They have a front door also! That space in front of them, especially small mastabas is part of the building, a courtyard. It is NOT a pathway & can lead you astray that there is pathing there that isn't!

You are very close to victory, so just continue playing this city. Perhaps delete & move some farmers closer to the floodplain for more food, & add some bakeries & papyrusmakers. You definitely need to fix your Graduate Crisis & get some Graduates immediately! Try two Dedicated Education Priests until you get some.

I hope this helps! :)
Last edited by Tinkerbell on Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:48 pm, edited 7 times in total.

Jayzilla
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Postby Jayzilla » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:52 pm

Let me go through your post and reply to some. :)

1. ty for the math with the bakeries and granaries, i wasn't sure how many I needed.

Tinkerbell wrote:You have placed almost all your buildings in the default position.


Yeah, as I said, I didn't even know you could change facings until halfway through the city! I'm glad to hear that this will speed my citizens up on my next city.

Tinkerbell wrote:Priests & Scribes need papyrus to function better & can walk all over the place to find some. You only have 3 & need many more.


Any idea on a ratio I should have? Maybe this will fix itself next city when i spread out more.

Tinkerbell wrote:You have a Graduate Crisis[..]


Yeah, this is a mistake i've made a few times: if you look at my 2 schools, you can see the 2 priests that I built there to set on educate only. My problem is that I look at my city tab, see 12 graduates, and think "oh good now i can set those priests to help fix the religion problem."

and the problem happens when i forget to set one or both back to education.

Tinkerbell wrote:but World Map Merchant Peddlers cause a very ugly bug to appear. This is the reason you have multiple tents/boats & stuck traders all over the place.


This is another aspect i'm very glad that you've explained! I was hoping that this wasn't 'working as intended.'

Tinkerbell wrote:Spread them out for better counts & you will find that you need less of them. Scribes also need almost a personal bakery with lots of prepared food to remain happy.


Yeah, that cluster of scribes is a rather knee-jerk reaction to the very low efficiency of field counting.

My next city is going to be much less clustered: i think i'm going to try leaving an open space in between each building! that way my little peoples will be able to get around much easier, although the distance will be a bit longer. Again, thanks for all the input!

Tinkerbell wrote:your city should be in revolt/overthrow[...]

It is a bit sad to know that my city is working in spite of my own innate skill, instead of because of it, lol. But at least I know i've got lots of room for improvement!

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:33 pm

How many papyrusmakers you need is hard to guess. Priests & Scribes want them & want 6 every time they go shopping, but can live w/o them. COTN functions differently when there is none of something. This is how TM designed the game. It will change to bring you back from a disaster tipping point with only a time penalty (usually involving a lot of protesting, emmigration & vagrants). Overthrow is very hard if not impossible to get. The point is that if papyrus is available, they will go get some. It is distance again & making them go out of their way to get it.

World Map sites can require papyrus to open/upkeep & change the number you need. TM also changed the capacity of each papyrusmaker from the original 12 to 36 with v1.3.01. Reserve is something you also need to be careful with with papyrus.

I would definitely not build with a space/road around every building, just x2 rows back-to-back. You can really smash a city together & this is really required on Hard Difficulty to cut down distances, but you need to do it correctly with properly turned buildings & intersections. ;)

Good Luck! :)
Last edited by Tinkerbell on Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Jayzilla
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Postby Jayzilla » Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:56 am

ok, i'll edit this post with my new save once i start a new city. It might take a bit, but i've got a three day weekend so it should be in by then. ^^

sakasiru
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Postby sakasiru » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:55 pm

Hi Jayzilla!

I looked at your savegame, and I absolutely love your city! Only problem I see are the wrong turned buildings and the farmes having not enough floodplain, otherwise, it's perfectly fine!

As you can guess, I'm not a fan of "perfect" spreadsheeted cities. There will come the time where you want to find the ideal layout, but I always liked the "grown" cities better. And you are doing fine! I'm posting here to remind you that while all that Tink said is good advice and right, CotN lets you very freely build your city. You don't need to place a papyrus maker next to a priest. You can place all your papyrus makers at one spot or you can build none at all, too. Your city will flourish either way. I've build cities with many roads and open spaces and cities with very labyrinthine pathes. So always build the city the way you'd like it to look, and have no fear it won't "function", because it will :)

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:19 pm

OMG !!! :o

Sakasiru just called me a ... <gasp> ... spreadsheeter! :eek:

...runz off screaming into the Nile sand... desperately in need of a bath...

:(

sakasiru
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Postby sakasiru » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:09 pm

"Tinkerbell" wrote:OMG !!! :o

Sakasiru just called me a ... <gasp> ... spreadsheeter! :eek:

...runz off screaming into the Nile sand... desperately in need of a bath...

:(


Hah! You totally brought that onto yourself! :p

...helps Tink rub the feeling off with desert sand...

Yahya
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Postby Yahya » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:12 pm

Can one of you post some screenshots of that city? I'd love to have a look at it, but last night, it never finished loading when I tried.... :p

Thanks!

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:19 pm

"sakasiru" wrote:Hah! You totally brought that onto yourself! :p


Ahr me ahrr!

:D

...helps Tink rub the feeling off with desert sand...


You are most Noble, sakasiru!

"Yahya" wrote:Can one of you post some screenshots of that city? I'd love to have a look at it, but last night, it never finished loading when I tried.... :p

Thanks!


I doesn't load? I'll check it out & post in the UCS thread.

I'll post some, but in the UCS thread that is about to git bumped. ;)
Last edited by Tinkerbell on Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

clayson4908
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Postby clayson4908 » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:42 pm

Tinkerbell,

I just want to THANK YOU for your excellent posts. They are always well organized, thorough and easy to understand. They are like mini-seminars. And while I didn't start this thread, I have benefitted from your responses. You have explained several issues that have always puzzled me.

Malandra
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Postby Malandra » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:42 pm

"clayson4908" wrote:tinkerbell,

i just want to thank you for your excellent posts. They are always well organized, thorough and easy to understand. They are like mini-seminars. And while i didn't start this thread, i have benefitted from your responses. You have explained several issues that have always puzzled me.



qft. :)
________
Babe Asian
Last edited by Malandra on Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

sakasiru
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Postby sakasiru » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:54 pm

"Yahya" wrote:Can one of you post some screenshots of that city? I'd love to have a look at it, but last night, it never finished loading when I tried.... :p

Thanks!


I uploaded views from opposite directions. I hope this is okay by you, Jayzilla. Otherwise, I will take the pictures down.
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Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:05 pm

Whoops! I got mah threads mixed up, sakasiru! I was responding to both this & the "Walls" threads & thought Yahya was asking about your The citadel image from the other thread. :o

clayson4908 & Malandra ~ Thank you! :)

Jayzilla
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Postby Jayzilla » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:45 pm

"sakasiru" wrote:I uploaded views from opposite directions. I hope this is okay by you, Jayzilla. Otherwise, I will take the pictures down.


oh, that's fine: i was just about to upload a shot almost exactly like your #2 before i saw it. ;)

I'm making a city for the #2 hard one, i'm going to try and be a bit more organized. But it'll still be a bit 'grown.' :p

One final question: do I get any kind of penalty for building on sand? I'm not sure why i think there is one, maybe just something subconscious.
Last edited by Jayzilla on Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:39 am

"Jayzilla" wrote:One final question: do I get any kind of penalty for building on sand? I'm not sure why i think there is one, maybe just something subconscious.


Nope. ;)
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