about new CB game

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liminhao
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Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:22 am

about new CB game

Postby liminhao » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:38 am

I don't know what I'm doing, and I don't know tilted mill game developers can see this thread, well, whatever, I will just post what I have done, and expect some positive respones that can make me do more on the details.

This thread is basically about a idea on Japanese CB game. Japan is a interesting place, although they have few monument, the Japanese castles are considerable beautiful and I think it will be very interesting to builde up a city surround the castle.

The time is Sengoku Jidai, a period of war. Samurais fight for their honor and they enjoy their life quite different from ancient rome or china. I just felt like to think about the japanese CB game yesterday, and I start to work on it. But soon, I realize, if my idea worth nothing, I will just waste my time. Anyway, I'm just an idiot, not a programmer. If tilte mill think my idea is rubbish, then it is.

from here is the idea, incompleted, and I really want some comment.
please forgive my poor english, too.

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first of all, about the economy system. it will be interesting and more complex and more real to make wood become an important resource of the city, it will need wood to build buildings because after all, you can't build something all by cash. the money will needs for open the trade route and negotiations with other powers, and it will also needs money to build something like temples or upgrade players' castle which I will discuss later. since the player won't need money but wood to build most of the buildings, it's nessary for them to have some wood from the beginning and increase the wood production. also, players won't get money that easy. they won't get money from tax, instead they get rice from peasants. they need sell rice to merchants to get money. the tax rice can't used by citizens, and it will stored at the castle. tax rice is very important for military, that means players always need to keep their castle hold rice at certain level.

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second, in japanese history, local powers had a very important role. in the game, it works more like the natives in Caesar 3, but they won't attack you, at least from the beginning. players must take good care of local powers.
there will be 5 types of local power.

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local samurai, like a little village not controlled by players. if players work well with them, they will fight for players and provide players with some of their productions. if players piss them off, they will launch an attack with bigger troops than other local forces' , and of course, it will combined with the enemies in the invasions.
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temple force. they can make your people more happy and help to protect your city by send you their elite matchlock troops. but if you didn't take care of them, certainly, they will combined with enemy in the invasions, and they also can call a little uprise in your city.
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ninja's fortress. a ninja works as a spy that can gather information of other cities or sabotage them. surely, they will do the same thing to players if they don't like this city.
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merchant association. players can transfor the productions to their post, and they will pay players back with money. the happier they are, the more they will buy. and if they are not happy with you, of course they won't buy a thing, they may also hire mercenaries to attack players' city.
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pirates fortress. since there's no naval battle in the game, the pirates seems to be not important. surely their won't attack you because they know they can't beat samurai, ON LAND. pirates control the sea route, which is very important for trading with foreign powers. if they hate you, you won't get a thing through sea route, and they may also attack your fish boats. but if players make them happy, they will provide players with their large ship which can bring back more goods from foriegn countries, and they can also prevent any invasion from sea.
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every province may has 1 or 2 local powers randomly. local power, like emperor in Caesar series, may ask players for money, rice, productions or to build certain building inside their territory (like heralist to help them kill the diseases or a tower). if players fulfill their request, they will happy, and if player ignore them, they will ignore players, too, and get more angry with players. and surely players can send them gifts to make them more happy. local samurais and temple powers will need more money. ninja fortresses need rice. merchants need weapons to fight against robbers. and pirates need wood to build ships. if you give money to merchants, of cause they will love you, but it will be more effective if you give them what they want.

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at the beginnig of every game, the first thing that players must decide is where to put their castle, and they can't do anything before they put down their castle. if the castle has fallen, the game is over. the castle could be a warehouse which only take goods in. it stores tax rice as discussed above, and it stores weapons and armours, too. when invasion comes, players can call the city to arm, by make all the farmer workers became non-trained soldiers, as long as players have enough weapons and armours stored at their castle, and since they go to fight, them won't farm. the castle can be upgraded, and as it has been upgraded, it can keep more weapons and rice, and get more hit points, too. but mostly, upgrade the castle is just to make the castle looks more and more beautiful. it's more like the monuments in the emperor: ROK, and it will needs more than wood to upgrade. money, potterys, stones, furnitures, ceramices, and as the castle get bigger, the samurais and peasants will get more happier, too.

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There maybe more about game system, but I haven't think them yet, so let's start the instruction of buildings. First, peasants' houses. The houses have 8 level, and they will need:
lv1: nothing
lv2: food + water
lv3: pottery + hemp
lv4: shire + entertainment + medic care
lv5: second kind of food + bath + sake
lv6: furniture + more entertainment
lv7: paper + temple
lv8: tea + ceramices
ceramic discriminates from pottery. it's more like a kind of decoration, so is furniture. sake is japanese wine.

not like Caesar IV, japan had only two levels (actually it was 3 levels) of citizen, peasants and samurais. no matter how rich merchants are, they are peasants unless some daimyo hire them as a samurai, and it was unacceptable before the Sengoku Jidai. so it may be nessary to let different levels of houses provide different workers, e.g. Lv3 provide priest, Lv5 provide weapon master, and Lv8 can provide great merchant who can open trade with china or europe.

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so much for the peasants' house, about the samurais' houses, it will have 5 levels, and change size after it reach a certain level. each level they will need:
LV1: food + pottery + hemp + dojo 2*2
LV2: shire + entertainment + sake + bath
LV3: second food + furniture + medic care 3*3
LV4: more entertainment + tea + temple + third kind of food
LV5: school + ceramices + katana + silk + fourth kind of food 4*4
katana, the japanese sword, discriminate from normal weapon, and must made by weapon masters.
japan can't make silk, so players must evolve the peasant's house to highest level in order to trade with china, and the number of the highest house will effect how many goods can they get from trading.
about the food, farm and fishing can provide 3 kind of food totally, and only a few province near the sea can produce salt, so players need either trade with other city to get salt, or trade with china or europe to get spices.

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about what samurais do, each level of their house provide players with different types of samurais, and as the house evolved, it can provide players with more samurais.
LV1: squad leader, 3 samurai
LV3: emissary, 4 samurai
LV5: minister, 4 samurai and 1 elite samurai
a squad leader can increase the morale of foot soldiers.
a emissary can negotiate with local power and council to have local power's or the emperor's support.
minister can improve the city's work by put them into certain position.
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agricultural minister can increase the production and deal with the disasters.
industrial minister can increase the production.
commerce minister can make you get more money from trading either between cities or with foriegn powers
military minister can decrease the training time of soldiers, and increase their morale.
daimyo's assistant can decrease the risk rate of the whole city, decrease the upgrade time of buildings and castle
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it doesn't mean if a samurai become a minister or a emissary, they can't fight as a squad leader for you. it's more like after the house evolve to certain level, the option like negotiation with council or selecte the minister become possible.

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agricultural building:
farm house: wheat, vegetable. only the province has a river can plant rice from beginning, and other provinces will need upgrade it to let it has a irrigation pump, so it can plant rice. the upgrade can also increase it production.
hemp farm: hemp
fishing quay: fish
tea curning shed: tea
horse trainer: horse

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industrial buiding

iron sand maker: iron sand
clay pit: clay
logging shed: wood
stonework: stone, production is very low or limited
weapon maker: needs iron sand, weapon
armour maker: needs wood, wooden armour
pottery workshop: needs clay, pottery
paper maker: needs hemp, paper
sake maker: needs rice, sake
weapon master: needs iron sand, katana. it will needs more iron sand than weapon maker, and cost more time to product. the production is nessary to evolve the samurai's house, and increase their attack
armour master: needs iron sand, iron armour, increase the samurai's defence
furniture workshop: furniture
kiln: needs clay, ceramices
matchlock maker: needs iron sand + wood, matchlock. used to build up matchlock troops.

store is for upgrate the wall of castle, but since players can design their own castle wall, there no doult some one will try to make a stone-wall city, which has not present through out the japanese history, maybe because of the limitation of stone.

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commerce building:
rice shop: players sell their rice to merchants to get money
market
izakaya: japanese bar, provide wine, it can also serve as an entertainment facility
granary: can store rice, vegetable, fish, salt, spice
warehouse: can store other goods
peddle house: deliver goods to samurais

about the warehouse and peddle house, it can work better by receiving a horse. the warehouse worker can take more goods from the other warehouse and peddles house's worker can also take more goods from warehouse, and the horse can make peddles walk further since they can carry more goods to deliver to samurais. horses can't live forever, so they need to be repleased by new ones every year or after a certain duration.

basic serve:
constructor house: upgrade buildings and castle
inspector station: watch for fire, can upgrade by using woods, which has a watchtower that can low down the fire risk of certain area. the tower doesn't prevent the fire, but the risk rate can low down to N%.
samurai station: catch spy, stop unrest
herbalist: needs specialists, improve the city's health level
well: provide water to certain area, needs road acess. can upgrade to improve the range.
bridge

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Thanks everyone who read this far. As you can see, it is nothing but a thought of the game. I think it could be better, but I don't know if tilte mill would consider about to make this thought to a game.

Keith
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Postby Keith » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:04 pm

Interesting stuff. I suggested a Japanese citybuilder eons ago when we were all daydreaming about what the next game might be. It wasn't a popular choice unfortunately.

liminhao
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Postby liminhao » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:31 pm

so sorry to hear about this, but thanks for the help. Japanese sengoku jidai is a very good meterial and several games about it is very successful, in my opinion. And some game add japanese into them, too. I'm just a player, so I don't know about how popular the Emperor: ROK is, but if it has many funs, I think japanese CB game could do the same, because, as far as I know, western world like better and know more about japan than china.

Herodotus
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Postby Herodotus » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:57 pm

There were some unfamiliar terms in your ideas that people probably will not understand straight away. I had to google them to make sure I understood:

sengoku jidai = 15th/16th century samurai period. The same time as the renaissance in Europe and first colonization and conquest of the Americas, so you can see this is a very interesting period from a western point of view.

ironsand = particular form of iron ore found in mainly in Japan and New Zealand, iron ore would be a better generalised term.

From memory there was a scenario in Civilization 3 Conquests that covered this period. However Civ 3 is not a city builder.

I play Emperor ROTMK regularly still, but one thing all the city builders made by Sierra/TM had in common was a relatively simple military. There weren't endless military upgrades in it.

So actually as far as gaming is concerned, western world is more familiar with China history than Japan just because of Emperor ROTMK, but personally I would welcome a Japanese city builder.
I'm not sure it will ever happen though... But no harm in dreaming :)

liminhao
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Postby liminhao » Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:53 pm

http://kobe-mari.maxs.jp/photo/nakaharima/himejijo/himeji_009.jpg
http://www.sakura-hotel-hatagaya.com/blog/siro20kuusatu.jpg

himeji castle, prode of japanese.
actually the sengoku jidai beginning with Onin war 1467, and ended by Daimyo Oda nobunaga by exiled the shogunate, 1572. Japan didn't stop war from then, they fought against each other until 1615, Tokugawa Ieyasu became the shogunate, and ended the war.
After then, japan began its peaceful life for over 200 years, until american ships came, 1863.
So, I realized there were always a military line and a peaceful line in Caesar series, so I think it would be a good idea to let players to choose which period to play or as whose general, the Tokugawa's or the Oda's. Daimyo Oda Nobunaga expended his territory very successfully, and at 1580, he had already conquered nearly 30% of japan, and nobody would doubt the Oda's age will come soon, if he wasn't betrayled by his general and get killed at 1582.
So, here is the solution. Players can choose which period to play.

1554~1572, as a general of Daimyo Oda which they must force on military because there will be many invasions, and I think this will be the period that players should have good relationships with local power and emperor.

1572~1598, as a stuff of General Toyotomi. Toyotomi Hideyoshi was the chanceller of japan. He was the general of Oda Nobunaga, and he unified japan based on Oda's progress at 1590. So players may have peaceful province deep inside the Oda's (or Toyotomi's later) territory to provide resource or develop certain province, or they can fight at the front line.

1598~1620, as a general of Daimyo Tokugawa. Toyotomi died at 1598, and after he died, Tokugawa began to try to wipe out the Toyotomi's influence and try to contral japan. With 3 battles, Tokugawa capture the Osaka castle of Toyotomi, and forced Hideyoshi's only son to suicide, 1615. Then Tokugawa back to his Edo castle to began his rule, and the Edo period began.

These 3 campaigns let players to choose what they should force on. Like ROK, the Tang period was very peaceful, but the Song period maybe a little dangerous. Since it is a city building game, the military forces must be limited, e.g. 20 men per squad, and 6 squads on top. I didn't discuss the military, because there is too many things to consider. There won't be too many invasions, even in the dangerous province. The enemies may strong, but they won't come that often. Each enemy's city will send 4~6 squads of troops to the city once a time in the military mission. And if players get emperor angry, he may call you the enemy of the country, which more than 2 city will form an allies to invate you, and their force can reach up to 10 squads, which means players will needs allie city's or local powers' help. So the war period dosen't mean the enemies are restless, but the more dangerous the province are, the stronger the enemy will be.

Keith
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Postby Keith » Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:14 pm

A Japanese citybuilder was just a suggestion by a fan (me) and not under any sort of official consideration by TM as far as I know. That doesn't mean it couldn't be in the futurer. One never knows.

A citybuilder based on Japan was just one of many cultures those of us here on the forum suggested. Some of the most popular ones were games based on Mesoamerica (Aztecs, Inca and Myan indians), medieval europe, the Hanseatic League, and Vikings. None of which would be my favorite pick, pesonally speaking.

Emperor: Rise of the Middle Kingdom, based on ancient China, was fairly popular, so have I no doubts that a game focused on Japan with similar historical references would probably do well in the end. Emperor RotMK was not developed by Tilted Mill, which didn't exist yet, or by Impressions Games, TM's forerunner at Sierra, but rather by Breakaway Games.

All we can do is sit back and wait for Tilted Mill to decide on what is next and get back to work and we will all be happy for that.

Azeem
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Postby Azeem » Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:51 am

"Shogun: Total War" and "Shogun 2" were some of the most successful strategy games. I'd have no doubts that anything Japan-related would attract a lot of attention.

Honestly, I'd prefer if more attention was given to another neighboring culture outside of Japan (not to mention the lingering assumption that everything Japanese is somehow representative of one of an extremely diverse region of the world). One can dream, right? ;)

liminhao
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Postby liminhao » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:53 am

maybe, but given the japanese material is very popular, why not make a japanese CB game so it can bring back a lot of money?

Simtopia23
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Postby Simtopia23 » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:46 pm

i personally prefer a medieval City-Builder, but also a Japanese CB would be appreciate.

Keith
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Postby Keith » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:33 pm

"Azeem" wrote:"Shogun: Total War" and "Shogun 2" were some of the most successful strategy games. I'd have no doubts that anything Japan-related would attract a lot of attention.

Honestly, I'd prefer if more attention was given to another neighboring culture outside of Japan (not to mention the lingering assumption that everything Japanese is somehow representative of one of an extremely diverse region of the world). One can dream, right? ;)


But in the Western mind, Japan is the more familiar culture, excluding China, over most of the othre asian cultures in the region including that of Korea. The West is where the game will be target marketed for the most part.

A game based on Korea, while unique, might sell in Korea but I'm not so sure it would fire the minds of most Westerners.

The idea of a medieval citybuilder strikes me as mundane and evokes little passion from me. There are so many games out their based on this time period already, albeit few if any could be considered a "citybuilder".

As things go, if not Japan, I'd rather see a game based on Mesoamerica first over one based on medieval europe.

pcgamer2
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Postby pcgamer2 » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:54 pm

What would be interesting is if TM can design a base city builder set in the 14-16th century period (as between these centuries critical movements and events took place for many cultures) that immerses you in the given culture. Whether you’re building a new city or controlling an established one in a scenario, the story of the culture unfolds as you have to make necessary decisions to learn, progress, and adapt based on the history of the time. The base game can start with one that’s in the most demand (I would assume Mesoamerican) and over time TM can crank out DLCs or Expansions adding more cultures such as Japan, Korea, Ottoman Empire, medieval France, etc each with the adjustments and new campaign added. A CB like this can stay relevant for years to come, TM will have a steady income, and everyone is happy.

liminhao
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Postby liminhao » Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:01 pm

maybe tilted mill is so busy with the new online game, maybe this game bring them more money and needs maintence so they have little interest about new PC games. It happens all the time, when some company started an online game, it will be a very long time before they release a new game. I hope the new one would be a japanese CB game, and it would be good to working on something they know less about.
Like the creative assembly. Don't take it the wrong way, but shogun 2 is not THAT good. I mean it's a wonderful game, but it's just not a game based on japan. The game's background is japan, though, but it's more like a western japan. For example, I was shocked when I saw yari ashigaru fight with a katana at close combat. And when approach the end of the game, most players army are full of samurais, I never know there were so many samurais at Sengoku Jidai. Despite all of these, players love it, especially the fall of the samurai DLG, where is japan in the game except the map.
But I'm sure all these criticisms must come from someone who knows about japanese history, and others just enjoy different culture. And if they make a game about american or europe history, maybe western players may say "hey, it's not real". I think same thing will happen if tilted mill make a western CB game, and if they make it based on a unfamiliar culture, it will bring them a lot of money, and bring players a lot of fun.

Azeem
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Postby Azeem » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:28 pm

@liminhao
I found Shogun to be far more accurate than any other game that features an East Asian culture. The point of the game was more a what-if: what if the other clans had the capacities to take the Shogunate. If it were absolutely true to history, then it would just be an elaborate history book and doing exactly everything that Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and Tokugawa Ieyasu did would be exciting only the first few times around. It sounds like you're expecting a virtual history textbook, not a game. A game has to follow mechanics to enable player dynamics into the mix. The game mechanics simply led to the possibility of having a lot of samurai and even the result of that did have some relation to history - having too many could easily strain your economy.

That said, most Western players actually didn't nitpick at the inaccuracies and anachronisms in Age of Empires III or Sid Meier's Colonization, for the simple reason that most people rather see a game as a game.
Last edited by Azeem on Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

liminhao
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Postby liminhao » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:19 am

"Azeem" wrote:@liminhao
I found Shogun to be far more accurate than any other game that features an East Asian culture. The point of the game was more a what-if: what if the other clans had the capacities to take the Shogunate. If it were absolutely true to history, then it would just be an elaborate history book and doing exactly everything that Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and Tokugawa Ieyasu did would be exciting only the first few times around. It sounds like you're expecting a virtual history textbook, not a game. A game has to follow mechanics to enable player dynamics into the mix. The game mechanics simply led to the possibility of having a lot of samurai and even the result of that did have some relation to history - having too many could easily strain your economy.

That said, most Western players actually didn't nitpick at the inaccuracies and anachronisms in Age of Empires III or Sid Meier's Colonization, for the simple reason that most people rather see a game as a game.


you see, this is excatly what I want to say. when my friend claim about shogun 2 that it's has too many mistakes about japanese history, I told him "you want history? go to libary". a game must give players the max fun not just reality.

but should I say it's quite anoying when I saw shogun 2 was made up in a more western way, I mean it could be way much better and way much excited if they spend a little more time at the libary, they can bring players a whole new total war game if they spend a little more time to get more knowladge about japanese history. but so far, it's just a rome total war has a japanese map, and has japanese units, especially the fall of the samurai DLG. honestly, I like empire total war better, maybe because I know little about european history so I can easily ignore the mistakes of the game and enjoy it.

anyway, I just hope tilted mill can do a better job on the CB games and I'm quite sure they could, based on their success ono Zesus and Caesar series.


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