library vs lighthouse

Discussion and help with creating scenarios and campaigns in the Editor
Jytte
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library vs lighthouse

Postby Jytte » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:33 pm

I'm going bonkers!

I wanted to check a trigger against an unfinished library... complete dud... HUH?
So went back to basics.... a brand new tiny flat map... put a lighthouse and a library on it... object for lighthouse and library both... message to self that lighthouse / library is there.... triggers if light/lib exist PLEASE send me a message !
In play: I get an instant message that I have a lighthouse, as I should..... the library might as well not be there
What on earth???

Since searching in here is not happening, via google don't work either, I'm unable to see if this has been mentioned somewhere as an issue ??????

It can't get any more basic than this. 2 identical objects and triggers, one work the other doesn't. So am I going nuts, or is there a program bug that I should know about ?
Jytte (alias Ubekhet)

Yahya
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Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: The Ocean State

Re: library vs lighthouse

Postby Yahya » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:54 am

This might be a stupid question, but please act as though I'm new to the game. :D

I don't remember there ever being a library in game. There's a school, but I don't remember a library.

What structure do you mean?

Jytte
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Re: library vs lighthouse

Postby Jytte » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:04 am

:lol: Great Works from Alexandria: Great Library and Great Lighthouse

is what I'm referring to.
Jytte (alias Ubekhet)

Jytte
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Re: library vs lighthouse

Postby Jytte » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:19 am

in the object list there are actually 4 listings of 'great lighthouse' or 'great library'. When you go to place a library f.ex. you need to place the 4th one, which is the finished building (and the one I'm running trig check on) the others are only parts. Same with lighthouse, except here it's the 2nd I believe that'll give you the finished lighthouse. For the lighthouse the trigger works for the 4th in the object list though.
For the library I tried to check on 'unfinished allowed' on ALL 4 of them, nothing works whatsoever.... dynamic or not, finished or not, any part of the model, in area or not.... I think I tried everything I could possibly think of... nothing.

Last night I skimmed through pages and pages of posts here in editing... no mention of great works that I could see.

Btw, searching via google with tiltedmill and some subject, it used to work a couple of years ago (when I realized search in here don't work), but now I get absolutely nothing.

I mean, this is not rocket science... a pretty simple question: is it there or not? Works with everything else I've ever used it for, but this I can't crack.
:cry:
Jytte (alias Ubekhet)

Jytte
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:44 am
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Re: library vs lighthouse

Postby Jytte » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:27 am

While I'm whining.... this is all simple "if, then, else" logic like we use in spreadsheets and programming everywhere else in this (PC)world. Except in CotN they didn't see fit to give us the 'else' part, forcing us to use many more triggers than really necessary. Why, oh Why?
Jytte (alias Ubekhet)

Yahya
Posts: 1526
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: The Ocean State

Re: library vs lighthouse

Postby Yahya » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:54 am

Tilted Mill used the 3D engine from Stainless Steel's Empire Earth to create this game. That's what gives us the camera control, zoom, etc. It was a revolutionary thing at the time.

However, this meant we also got the Empire Earth editor, which was a very simple editor. Empire Earth doesn't have the same complexity and so the editor wasn't that thoroughly designed. Tilted Mill added some features to it so they could build their own scenarios and campaigns and called it a day. Then they released that editor with the game.

They didn't anticipate the imaginations of some of us. We all had to learn the limitations, what is and isn't possible, and so on. It was a tough curve to say the least.

Regarding the lighthouse, there might be a situation where you need to place the base and allow it to be built (and carved, if that's necessary) before it registers complete. I could be wrong, but that feels familiar so you might want to try it.

Jytte
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:44 am
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Re: library vs lighthouse

Postby Jytte » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:44 pm

Yeehaaaaaaaaa, I finally cracked it :)

I guess I must've missed it the first times around. I went though all my options yet again from scratch, and in choosing the FIRST library on the list under objects, un-dynamic, and nothing further, it works! made two, one straight and one with 'allow incomplete', and now I'm getting my messages both for a finished library, and for one only just planned (placed but bricklayers hadn't even started hauling bricks) - just what I wanted.

Next time I will test some more, and some more, before I start whining in here :D

Yahya, thanks for your input. I get your point about the program. I guess we should just be happy that we HAVE it to play with.
Jytte (alias Ubekhet)

Yahya
Posts: 1526
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: The Ocean State

Re: library vs lighthouse

Postby Yahya » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:45 am

There you go!

That sounds familiar, now that you've explained it. I felt it might have been something like that.

Jytte
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Re: library vs lighthouse

Postby Jytte » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:16 pm

I almost had my scenario land on the floor last night (and me next to it throwing a fit like a 5-year old !!)

Only reason I write it now, is because there may be others like me, who read through the posts here to find pointers.

So slowly I'm finding out that most (if not all) 'unexplainable' happenings, what seems like 'this must be a fault in program' thingies.... well, they are neither bugs nor 'unexplainable'. It may be very VERY hard to figure out what the reason is, I may not LIKE (most times not) the reason, but there's a reason. This editor truly works in mysterious ways :lol:

Against my better judgement (I just can't seem to stop myself) I finished my map before I did anything else. It's a BIG map, as in 400x400, filled with landscaping, critters, trees, resources etc etc.... cuzz I like it that way, and machines can handle it nowadays. I went along VERY carefully, creating river each time I'd done a new patch, and saving, then next copy.... over 100 saves. At the end I had a finished map, river OK.
I had made a 'no map, world level only' other scenario. I only had all the sites (87 of them) in there, no specifics, just to get everything arranged the way I wanted it. This world level I then imported into my real map. No problem. New save.
Then I started on triggers and such. I had made all my trigger setups (objects, effects etc) in a spreadsheet first, because it's much easier to plan out that way... this because once everything is said and done I'll have very close to 500 entries in it.
So I started typing in my basic trigger arrangements, messages and cheat codes and such. Everything tested extensively and working.
Then I went to enter all the specifics of my water-trade-sites only, there are 12 of those.
THEN I started testing those, and it went completely wrong.

Now, the story behind this is: I have an idea. I make a tiny map with just that little thing. Test it. If ok, then it enters into my bigger scheme of things. My scenario has a main harbour(w 8 landings), a canal with harbour (w 2 landings) plus 2 extra landings in other places, and room for a shipyard (not in). So, first a tiny map, carving river and the big harbour exactly as I want it. Make a bunch of trade sites, and test and test the deliveries. Everything fine. Then to the big map. The very first thing I did on it was to carve a river and the main harbour, adding 8 landings. Testing a copy with trade sites, works splendidly. Then the little harbour w 2 landings, and the extras. Testing, works splendidly. All landings being ok, I forget about them and finish up everything else on the map, very carefully saving etc.

And now it doesn't work. WHAT is wrong with this? First of course I curse the whole thing, the programmers behind CotN in particular. Then I think there must be something wrong with my world level, but there's not that much in it. Still, I try my map with a blank world level, and just adding one site to trade. Same result. I tried to delete all landings, and BUILD them in play. Same result. What I should explain here is that the 'non working part' is all the ships arriving at their landings (where there's a drop for them), unloading, then walking to exchange or palace to get their food. And there they stay, Stuck.

My entire vocabulary of not-so-nice words came into play, and believe me I know a lot, in several different languages!

Just before I threw my PC on the floor, I decided to try again, with a fresh copy. This time around I started shuffling where the trades went to. And lo and behold... most of the landings work ok, except for 6 of the 8 in main harbour. Huh? So there's nothing wrong with world level, but something very wrong with the MAP. How can this be? I have 'river ok' on every single save.

Only then did I realize that at some point during map creation, and I really can't remember when and exactly what I did, but I do think that I repainted some times for looks, and I probably at some point deleted landings and put them back. And therein lies the problem. Those 6 landings were corrupt. More exactly that SPOT they sat in is corrupt. Cannot be used again. (and 'river creation' does not check for that) Now what? The entire map is created around that harbour.

Very fortunate for me, I had made that harbour relatively wide, so I managed to move the quay (the edge upon which the landing sits) 'in' one square on both sides. Luckily still enough room in there for the ships to move around. Added 8 new landings. Now my harbour is a tad narrower than I'd have liked it to be, BUT everything works like a charm !

So lesson here is, when something goes wrong, you did something you shouldn't have. The problem is finding out WHAT in God's name that could be.

And, just because you have 'river ok' does not mean your MAP is ok, I had to learn that the hard way.

And now I'll move on to my next sites :)

PS: now I also know what went wrong with my first big map. I had the same trade problems (and pre-arranged landings) and I had nobody worshipping at all anywhere, which I finally found out, by reading through posts in here, is because I had sites with 'worship points'.... you don't EVER wanna do that.
Jytte (alias Ubekhet)

Yahya
Posts: 1526
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: The Ocean State

Re: library vs lighthouse

Postby Yahya » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:12 pm

Structures on the river are very, very tricky.

And generally speaking, so are all trade structures. They are notoriously difficult and introduce a lot of wonky bugs.

Stone carvers and overseers are objects that SEEM buggy, but almost invariably have a problem due to player error.


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