After the DEMO- things to improve!!

Everything Caesar IV that doesn't fit elsewhere
dorn
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After the DEMO- things to improve!!

Postby dorn » Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:25 am

Everyone write down the things that must be improved in the final version of the game and do not do this in 1000 threads. :)
Can you please write down in one in order to give the devs a better overview of what is still missing, wrong or lacked.

There many little things that aren't okay at the moment:
advisors->1. the button for labourers of equites in water doesn't change if you put it on higher or highest it stays normal, you only know it changed cos you see that there are more labourers in the calculation for water now.

2. the overlays are nearly the same as the advisors, they only say what the coverage is, i miss the number of children who accually need to attend school, and not just to see that 4000 people have only mideocre coverage with 6 schools, i want the numbers like in the previous games.
Its the same with health, or entertainment, you cannot see how many people are covered by one odeum, e.g. or how many people have acces to a bathhouse. When i looked at the overlays i see that every street/house is dark green and so i think health must be at leats good; but my advisors just tells me its poor, though i see that only 1 household has fair level and 35 have perfect level and clinics and bathhouses are each good coverage, so how can overall only be poor?

3.The interface in the advisors section is too modern, it uses the windows aero style which will see in the next years on our pc's, but i do not want this style in an historical city builder. Where is the marble, where are the columns in the ratings? (By the way;TM nice models of the advisors :D )
The interface in-game is way better thna in the advisors section, though the buttons look historcal with good symbols, the white and blue explanations are so modern style and cover so many other symbols that this doesn't fit in to the rest and the content of a rome CB.

Coverage-> How far can a market be away from the citizens in order they still get themselfs there food. I noticed that the patricians have no food all the time while the plebs and equites around them get their food by themselfs and have hundreds of units in their houses.
And how many grain farms for emaple will cover how many grain fields, i tried it out and noticed that even when i have 5 farms and 5 fields with full workers not all the fields are cultivated. So do i only need one farm for all my fields or why isn't there a labourer on every filed?

To the fountains: i had a fountain directly next to my plebs and equites houses, all workers needed but some of the houses hadn't water until i placed another fountain next to the old one, so it took me 2 fountains for 8 houses, but on the other part of my city it took me only 1 fountain for 13 houses, how can that be?
Its the same with the prefects in C3 you needed prefects on nearly every edge and engineers too, now i only needed 3 of each of them to cover my whole city of 3700 people in order not to come up in flames or collapse.
Why can't i see the catchment area of markets, or prefects, odeums or schools when clicking on them, because when i use the overlays the areas of different odeums have completely different extents, some cover the half of the city and the other half need 3 in order to get a purple street or house.
Cos in this area of the city the catchment area end on an a aqueduct the actors just turn around under them and so the next houses aren't covered. :(

There are so many little mistakes or bugs or lacks to be improved in the gold game, that these weren't all of course so write some more down here for TM to read it. This is our beta-test now. :)

Pat D.
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Postby Pat D. » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:00 am

This is a great idea for a thread...could it be stickied perhaps?


For me the game has all the signs of brilliance....everygame is different, I don't quibble with design decisions made by the devs. Hey, that's their thang!

Things to fix...

1: Please address the lag

2: Thin roads would be sweet but not a killer w/out!!


* The fog issue they area aware of and will be fixed I've been told, so I'm not so concerned there.

For me, that's about it only because I adapt my play style to the tools that the game designers put before me! yahooooo!!! I'm excited and ready for Sept. to roll around.

later,
pat!

Gizza
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Postby Gizza » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:39 am

dorn wrote:And how many grain farms for emaple will cover how many grain fields, i tried it out and noticed that even when i have 5 farms and 5 fields with full workers not all the fields are cultivated. So do i only need one farm for all my fields or why isn't there a labourer on every filed?

The game actually specificully states that each farm will handle 2 fields. As for how far people walk to get goods, i dont thik there is a limit, just the further they need to walk the less time they have to get everything they need.

2. the overlays are nearly the same as the advisors, they only say what the coverage is, i miss the number of children who accually need to attend school, and not just to see that 4000 people have only mideocre coverage with 6 schools, i want the numbers like in the previous games.
Its the same with health, or entertainment, you cannot see how many people are covered by one odeum, e.g. or how many people have acces to a bathhouse. When i looked at the overlays i see that every street/house is dark green and so i think health must be at leats good; but my advisors just tells me its poor, though i see that only 1 household has fair level and 35 have perfect level and clinics and bathhouses are each good coverage, so how can overall only be poor?

For schools perhaps, but nothing else really would have a set number of people it can support. ie, bathouses, temples, arenas etc could support almost a limitless amount of people, just at different times.

Why can't i see the catchment area of markets, or prefects, odeums or schools when clicking on them, because when i use the overlays the areas of different odeums have completely different extents, some cover the half of the city and the other half need 3 in order to get a purple street or house.

I agree, this can be a bit hit and miss at times. Ive noticed sometimes bathhouses dont have consitant ranges. Pretty minor things which are easy to get around, but should be addressed anyways.

I just played for about 3 hours getting a large city, and didnt really have any problems at all. The cattle and sheep farm problem i was having before where it states it has no fields i found fixes itself if u just leave them, and perhaps spacing out fields a bit helps also.
So fixing up some buildings effect ranges, areana esspecially seem a bit off.
Giving an option to turn off first-person camera on zoom in would be great.
And lastly, speeding up the advisor panel. It feels a bit sluggish, where as the rest of the game for me runs smoothly.

Apart from that the game is performing pretty much as one would expect. Im not fighting against the game to get things to work like i felt like i was doing in CCR.

KazikluBey
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Postby KazikluBey » Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:07 am

Gizza wrote:Ive noticed sometimes bathhouses dont have consitant ranges.

All service buildings in the demo except for shrines (range 48) have a range of 72 squares along roads, so they don't spread their influence evenly in a geometric form, which can lead to a seemingly inconsistent pattern. Markets do not appear to have any ranges or area of coverage, however, people just seem to go to the nearest one available, though I think I'm going to pursue some tests on the matter.

(Yes, I'm a spreadsheet builder! :rolleyes: )

dorn wrote:2. the overlays are nearly the same as the advisors, they only say what the coverage is, i miss the number of children who accually need to attend school, and not just to see that 4000 people have only mideocre coverage with 6 schools, i want the numbers like in the previous games.

You've got it wrong - none of the service buildings serve a specific amount of population. They serve any and everyone along the roads that they cover.

Gizza
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Postby Gizza » Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:11 am

Getting service buildings up to good coverage, over medicore etc, has nothing to do with the actual city covereage. Its just how many you have for your population and it effect your culture rating. This is the exact same way it worked in C3.

Here is a SS of my bathhouse problem. Guess i needed another intersecting road.
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KazikluBey
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Postby KazikluBey » Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:22 am

That screenshot looks like working game mechanics to me.

I built up my city with the very minimum service buildings I could, and when I had 1 house outside of coverage, the score was good, if everything was covered, it was perfect. I guess it's possible that I just didn't build my housing densely enough, but my city managed to hold up to my theory awfully well. :rolleyes:

Gizza
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Postby Gizza » Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:03 pm

goonsquad wrote:This is incorrect. Coverage of a service building is determined by range in road tiles, not the number of buildings. It is completely different to C3.

If you can get all houseds in a city within range of a bath house (which is approx 72 squares), that is all you need.

All you need to determine coverage is the appropriate overlay.


Coverage in C3 was determined by the walker distance, not the number of buildings. Having enough schools to support all the children didnt effect housing needs, only your culture rating. So this does work in a similar fashion, just has range instead of walkers.

MarkDuffy
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Postby MarkDuffy » Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:11 pm

KazikluBey wrote:All service buildings in the demo except for shrines (range 48) have a range of 72 squares along roads, so they don't spread their influence evenly in a geometric form, which can lead to a seemingly inconsistent pattern. Markets do not appear to have any ranges or area of coverage, however, people just seem to go to the nearest one available, though I think I'm going to pursue some tests on the matter.

(Yes, I'm a spreadsheet builder! :rolleyes: )


The C3 Cultists have arrived!

Welcome to our family, KazikluBey! :)

Erratus
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Postby Erratus » Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:01 pm

So much for being a pure 'pull' economy, huh?

Interestingly - there seems to be an 'invisible' walker - at least, buildings can 'lose access' to services even if they are immediately next to them.

And there's still the flaw of no indication of how far a resevoir's underground piping extends, until after you place it. Do we really need to go back to counting tiles?

Gizza
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Postby Gizza » Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:42 pm

Erratus wrote:So much for being a pure 'pull' economy, huh?

Interestingly - there seems to be an 'invisible' walker - at least, buildings can 'lose access' to services even if they are immediately next to them.

And there's still the flaw of no indication of how far a resevoir's underground piping extends, until after you place it. Do we really need to go back to counting tiles?


The difference is that there isnt a walker come out of the service building providing access when he walks past houses. What happens now is someone from the house has to go to the service building to provide the house with access. THe range of the service buidlings shows how far it will draw people from.
So if people are loosing access to something next door its because they may be needing to travel to far for other goods. Keep in mind they will seem to travel as far as they need for market places, so u may wanna make sure they dont have to walk acroos the map to get food or basic goods.

Keith
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Postby Keith » Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:50 pm

Erratus wrote:So much for being a pure 'pull' economy, huh?

Interestingly - there seems to be an 'invisible' walker - at least, buildings can 'lose access' to services even if they are immediately next to them.

And there's still the flaw of no indication of how far a resevoir's underground piping extends, until after you place it. Do we really need to go back to counting tiles?


I tend to place my reservoirs early and build within the coverage area.

If you want a different way, try putting the game on pause, place the reservoir connected to a aqueduct/pump house, check the water coverage and if it's not right hit UNDO. You still have to so this reasonably quick for the UNDO to work, IIRC.

dorn
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Postby dorn » Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:11 pm

The new thing is that you can see the coverage when you have built it, even without the access of an aqueduct/pump station, which was needed in C3 i think).
Sadly you cannot see it before you place it, in order to not need to UNDO.
But i think everyone is building them at first, so you can check by building them and then just undo or if its good than build the aqueduct to it (which is hard enough in C4).

xau99
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Postby xau99 » Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:20 pm

I just played about 30 minutes of the demo, to get the feel of C4. Here are my questions

1) Can you stock pile goods like in previous city-builders?
2) In c3/Zeus you had a summary of information about employmeny/unemployment, taxes, goods in the city etc - if you needed more detail you clicked on the choice - in c4 you dont get a summary and the only way u get info is to click on the advisor (which takes a few minutes to load) and you have to remember what you looked at when u get back to the game - can we get our summary on screen while playing
3) Bigger maps please

Erratus
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Postby Erratus » Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:04 pm

xau99 wrote:I just played about 30 minutes of the demo, to get the feel of C4. Here are my questions

1) Can you stock pile goods like in previous city-builders?


Yes - from the advisor screen.

xau99 wrote:2) In c3/Zeus you had a summary of information about employmeny/unemployment, taxes, goods in the city etc - if you needed more detail you clicked on the choice - in c4 you dont get a summary and the only way u get info is to click on the advisor (which takes a few minutes to load) and you have to remember what you looked at when u get back to the game - can we get our summary on screen while playing


Selecting the forum will give you the unemployment rate, at least.

xau99 wrote:3) Bigger maps please


No argument there - one of the best things about CotN was the relatively wide open spaces to build your city in. This map feels claustrophobic by comparison.



Gizza wrote:So if people are loosing access to something next door its because they may be needing to travel to far for other goods. Keep in mind they will seem to travel as far as they need for market places, so u may wanna make sure they dont have to walk acroos the map to get food or basic goods.


I had considered that - but the most distant service building was only about 15 tiles away - if the limit is that short, this is going to play like civcity rome, only without the ability to move houses when neccessary.

Gizza
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Postby Gizza » Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:14 pm

If u look at the overlays u can see the distance ppl will walk for all the different services, and its quite long, 72 road tiles in every direction is what ppl are saying, im not sure where this info comes form but thats what it is apparently.
The great thing about this is that the more roads u have the more ppl can access places, which makes sense. Unlike CCR where it was just a circle around the house regarless of road access.

Markets seem limitless as do fountains. So maybe u just need to give them more time to get the goods????

Erratus
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Postby Erratus » Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:24 pm

The fountain was the service building that stopped providing coverage to it's immediate neighbor.

Why?

No idea - it was still providing coverage to the house past the one with the problem (and had full employment.)

Wish it had been possible to make a savegame to demonstrate, but I haven't recreated that specific problem again.

Gizza
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Postby Gizza » Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:35 pm

Erratus wrote:The fountain was the service building that stopped providing coverage to it's immediate neighbor.

Why?

No idea - it was still providing coverage to the house past the one with the problem (and had full employment.)

Wish it had been possible to make a savegame to demonstrate, but I haven't recreated that specific problem again.


I cant say whether its a bug or a problem or what. But just incase u didnt know, fountains dont work the same was as they do in C3. Ppl actually need to go to the fountain and bring back a bucket of water. Perhaps that house was just lagging behind on its water collection.

Keith
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Postby Keith » Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:55 pm

Or that fountain has lost its equite level worker.

Schmophit
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Postby Schmophit » Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:57 pm

Speaking of the overlays, I was checking the fire risk overlay to see that I had everything covered and then had literally just closed the overlay thingy, and noticed a prefect patrolling on the 'grass' for about the second or third time, so it kinda beggars the question 'are roads absolutely necessary in some instances?' Cos if the little dudes are patrolling around on the grass, it would appear not, either that or he was cutting a damn big corner :rolleyes:
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Arkimedes
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Small contribution

Postby Arkimedes » Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:00 pm

Things to improve on the full game:

1) The "F2" function key of CotNile Is needed. It let us lock the camera and give us more control over it which result a "playable" game. With this feature active we only could zoom in/out with our middle mouse wheel.

2) The layout: once selected a building/object from the menu, it should be turned of. To select the same menu and/or building a "key" (F3 or other) should be enough.

An example at low specs (lower than normal - "Restricted"). Doesn't bother you sharing the game window with the useless menu on the right once the building/feature selected?

Image

3 - How can we tell what's the front/rear side of a certain building. Several buildings have doors/gates on both sides. On a citybuilding game this is crucial: no wasting time or resources. Buildings need an arrow (like CotNile) or something that could tell us what the “good” side of the building is.

This is my small contribution to improve the game. Hope you agree with me.


Arkimedes


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