Slaves??!?!?!?!?!

Have suggestions for Caesar IV? Post 'em here!
Launcelot
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Slaves??!?!?!?!?!

Postby Launcelot » Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:35 am

Ummm I KNO the romans ahd slaves, so y were they not included in the game? i mean, more than 30,000 slaves were used to make the colloseum, 12,000 of them were jews... so cmon where are the slaves!?

MarkDuffy
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Postby MarkDuffy » Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:53 am

TM punted on the issue.

Keith
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Postby Keith » Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:30 am

Ah, the return of the dead. This topic has been bandied about many times over the years and it always gets resurrected sooner or later. ;)

Sorry, no slaves....by developer (and probably Sierra's) choice.

wodinoneeye
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Postby wodinoneeye » Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:58 am

Too 'controversial'...... No matter that it was a fundamental aspect of the Roman World.

No doubt they would have tried to omit all mention of warfare as well if they could have got away with it.

MarkDuffy
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Postby MarkDuffy » Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:35 am

No slaves in COTN either, Keith.

TM punted on the issue.

Bagarius
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Postby Bagarius » Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:13 am

Strange how history gets corrupted by an effort to political correctness, but it happens a lot in games. Spartacus should be remembered, and millions like him... would also make for a better model of Roman society.

In Caesar III we had at least the gladiator revolt, encountered nothing like that in C IV so far.

MarkDuffy
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Postby MarkDuffy » Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:17 pm

Same thing with mah Historic America CB game. Some don't wanna deal with cowboys & indians, Bagarius. Nor the Civil War & slavery.

This is total nonsense, as AOE3 & WarChiefs expansion has clearly proven.

TM just has to do it carefully.

Rnett
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Postby Rnett » Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:57 pm

Captives like Tropico.

wodinoneeye
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Postby wodinoneeye » Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:33 am

If anyone ever made a game about Australia - no Aborigines, no Transportees, maybe no kangaroos (if current trends go on), mention of any kind of environmental exploitation (goldmining, lumbering etc..) could be next......


Reminds me of the South Park episode where a recut of "Saving Private Ryan"
has all the guns cut out and replaced by walkietalkies....
Last edited by wodinoneeye on Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Launcelot
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Postby Launcelot » Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:00 am

Well if you think about it, games should go agaisnt political correctness. PLuss its not like they cant get away with it. Look at GTA (grand theft auto) very controversial, but makes lots of money adn is still very popular.

Will Jennings
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Postby Will Jennings » Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:51 pm

I came on board after this decision would have been made, so I don't know the reasoning we used, but speaking as a player, with my TM hat off, I'm glad it was:

I play historically-inspired games for a combination of wish-fulfillment and the coolness of re-imagining the past. I know I won't get a true historical understanding from them (though they do inspire me to go back and thumb through Tacitus again sometimes...).

It's a neat fulfillment of my fantasies to build the Circus Maximus, but I don't fantasize about owning slaves. I just don't enjoy pretending to have other human beings as property. I'd rather play Thomas Clarkson than the captain of the White Lion. That's not about "political correctness" -- it's about what's fun for me.

Then again, I never really got into GTA, either. The first half-hour I played San Andreas, it was REALLY boring, horribly slow-paced... then my brother-in-law saw me playing and said "What on earth are you doing? You don't need to stop at every red light!"

MarkDuffy
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Postby MarkDuffy » Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:20 pm

TM is much too cautious of a company now, Will.

You were bold with COTN, but really chose the "Safe route" with Caesar IV. I understand, however

I desperately await TM returning to their roots &

To boldly go where no one has gone before...

EDIT: To be clear, the Graphics in C4 ARE bold, but the game is a clone.
Last edited by MarkDuffy on Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bexgames
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Postby bexgames » Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:19 pm

Will Jennings wrote:Then again, I never really got into GTA, either. The first half-hour I played San Andreas, it was REALLY boring, horribly slow-paced... then my brother-in-law saw me playing and said "What on earth are you doing? You don't need to stop at every red light!"

ROFLMBO...this from a gaming genius. :D

Will Jennings
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Postby Will Jennings » Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:20 pm

MarkDuffy wrote:TM is much too cautious of a company now, Will.

You were bold with COTN, but really chose the "Safe route" with Caesar IV. I understand, however

I desperately await TM returning to their roots &

To boldly go where no one has gone before...

EDIT: To be clear, the Graphics in C4 ARE bold, but the game is a clone.


I'm not sure how that relates to the topic at hand (having or not having slavery in a game isn't about boldness; there are some rather mundane games that include it), but: we intend to be making games for a long time. Some of them will be revolutionary and radical, and some evolutionary and familiar. I hope you'll have a great time playing all of them.

MarkDuffy
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Postby MarkDuffy » Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:45 pm

Will Jennings wrote:I'm not sure how that relates to the topic at hand (having or not having slavery in a game isn't about boldness; there are some rather mundane games that include it),


Yeah, it is, Will.

... but: we intend to be making games for a long time. Some of them will be revolutionary and radical, and some evolutionary and familiar. I hope you'll have a great time playing all of them.

C4 is an excellent clone! I absolutely love it, except for the construction, triggered world map, along with raiding & vassalizing other World Map cities from Zeus that you left on the cutting room floor. ;)

At least you kept the Pull system from COTN. I would NOT have been a happy camper if you did a FULL C3 clone. ;) C4 is much better than C3. :D

Oh yes, I definitely will enjoy anything you come up with!

Bagarius
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Postby Bagarius » Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:30 pm

Will Jennings wrote:I play historically-inspired games for a combination of wish-fulfillment and the coolness of re-imagining the past. I know I won't get a true historical understanding from them (though they do inspire me to go back and thumb through Tacitus again sometimes...).

It's a neat fulfillment of my fantasies to build the Circus Maximus, but I don't fantasize about owning slaves. I just don't enjoy pretending to have other human beings as property. I'd rather play Thomas Clarkson than the captain of the White Lion. That's not about "political correctness" -- it's about what's fun for me.

Strange how history gets corrupted by an effort to have fun.
Maybe you and me know it isn't historically correct, read about slavery in Tacitus and Caesar, but what I am afraid of, is that the game creates an image which people might think is true... Not because of this one game, but because many do.
Next to that, slavery would also make for a better model of Roman society. I like a game if it is more real, not if it is more fun.
And is it fun to send your soldiers to war? Kill the barbarians (my ancestors)? BTW if they weren't killed, they might be enslaved, as were the populations of whole barbarian cities on grounds of retaliation.

Edit: Since the "(my ancestors)" might be misinterpreted, it was meant as a cynical joke. All of our ancestors did a lot of things too all of our ancestors throughout history. I don't feel guitly or feel a victim about it, I can't change it. What I can change is the things happening in these days, and the images we create of our history. To call it "fun" to leave things out seems ethically not right (now who's politically correct :confused: ). Gnoti seauton.
Last edited by Bagarius on Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Launcelot
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Postby Launcelot » Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:00 pm

I play games for fun, but it disapoints me when it is a historical game and i kno there is something missing. It just gets under my skin a little bit. Im not saying C4 is worthless bcuz of it, but it would give a better model of roman society as previously mentioned. And i dont see how it can be politically incorrect to represnt history correctly!? Im sure their would have have been people that may have not of liked slaves, but alot of people dont like GTA. Its still selling (btw i dont any of the GTA games, but i have played them :/)

If potraying history as it is, can be considered politcally incorrect, the movie industry has another thing coming one day or another.

MarkDuffy
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Postby MarkDuffy » Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:31 pm

Slavery is not a big issue with me, Launcelot. I don't really miss it in my games & understand why it is left out.

However, I truly believe that one of the reasons Historic America is not done is for the reasons I stated above. Cowboys & Indians & slavery during the Civil War.

Same thing with Meso-America & some of the "religious" practices from the era.

Crucifixion of Christ in Roman times. Specifics can be left out, but you don't have to ignore the entire timespan & culture cuz of a few problems.

AEster
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Postby AEster » Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:37 am

introducing slaves in a game is one thing but do you also need to put in the brutality against them? That will be the next question though...........

Rnett
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Postby Rnett » Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:58 pm

Call them captives, then people won't get their nose bent out of shape... :eek:


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