Military

Have suggestions for Caesar IV? Post 'em here!
Rubicon
Posts: 188
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Location: Manchester, NH USA

Military

Postby Rubicon » Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:13 pm

Where do we start?? The military aspects of Caesar III were probably the most common complaint and could do with some serious improvement. However, neither would i want to see this to into Rome: Total War. Many of the concepts below appeared in Zeus, but could use some "polishing".

Conquest
One aspect that I'd enjoy would be the ability to expand your territory by conquering neighboring lands. It would provide more incentive to build up a strong military force than simply waiting around to be attacked by enemies. This would also be an alternative to trading for certain resources, as you could simply take a good or resource that was not available in your city.

Diplomacy
Roman generals conquered as many lands with treaty and compromise as they did with blood. Many times, this was accomplished by providing wealth to a tribe leader and conquering his enemies. It would be fun to be able to establish a treaty with one tribe by defeating another and bribing th leader. Then, one city could become a trade partner while the other would be placed under your control, providing additional money and soldiers to your city.

Realism
There has been much discussion regarding the unrealistic aspects of the military forts. First and foremost, I think, is the simplicity of the tactics. As I mentioned earlier, I'm looking for Rome: Total War, but a bit more intelligence by the attacking forces (e.g. flanking maneouvers) would be an improvement. A more "epic scale" would be nice as well. The battles in C3 resemble a soccer match gone awry more so than a battle.

Weaponry
One of the most feared and effective weapons of the Roman legions were the ballistae. While C3 did include them on towers, there were mobile versions that nearly always accompanied legions. There should be different workshops that produce different weapon types (gladius, pilum, ballista), the outputs of which will affect the level of armament of a division.

Experience and Morale
One of the reasons for the effectiveness of the Roman legions included the experience level of the legionaries. The effectiveness of a legion should be in part related to the number of battles in which they've fought. Also, a certain percentage of loyal soldiers should follow you as governer during your career from one city to the next (if the "career" aspect of C3 remains). Finally, a major factor in the morale of the soldiers involved the monetary benefits derived from conquests. Therefore, the looting of enemy soldiers and neighboring territories should have an effect on their morale.

Keith
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Postby Keith » Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:03 pm

Rubicon wrote:Where do we start?? The military aspects of Caesar III were probably the most common complaint and could do with some serious improvement. However, neither would i want to see this to into Rome: Total War. Many of the concepts below appeared in Zeus, but could use some "polishing".


To justice to the Roman Empire a more involved military segment of the game should be considered. I would love to see a triumphal parade in the city when victorious forces return to Rome.

Conquest
One aspect that I'd enjoy would be the ability to expand your territory by conquering neighboring lands. It would provide more incentive to build up a strong military force than simply waiting around to be attacked by enemies. This would also be an alternative to trading for certain resources, as you could simply take a good or resource that was not available in your city.


I miss the old Caesar II empire map with all its provinces. A return to that sort of map would be welcomed. I would like to see colony missions similar to those incorported in Zeus/Poseidon and Emperor RotMK. This would give the player a actual feeling of building an empire.

Diplomacy
Roman generals conquered as many lands with treaty and compromise as they did with blood. Many times, this was accomplished by providing wealth to a tribe leader and conquering his enemies. It would be fun to be able to establish a treaty with one tribe by defeating another and bribing th leader. Then, one city could become a trade partner while the other would be placed under your control, providing additional money and soldiers to your city.


I'm not as interested in this as others may be. I would not object to it being included as long as it wasn't too detailed or involved to excute. At the very lease include a "auto diplomacy" option if such a segment is incorporated into the game for those of us that don't want to be bothered with it.

Realism
There has been much discussion regarding the unrealistic aspects of the military forts. First and foremost, I think, is the simplicity of the tactics. As I mentioned earlier, I'm looking for Rome: Total War, but a bit more intelligence by the attacking forces (e.g. flanking maneouvers) would be an improvement. A more "epic scale" would be nice as well. The battles in C3 resemble a soccer match gone awry more so than a battle.


The military has always played second fiddle in these games. I don't want a RTW clone but more military options would be nice. At least the inclusion of some sort of strategy or tactics would be great. The establishing of forts and the buildings of military barracks in distant provinces should be modeled. Supplies and replacement troops must be sent to keep the active. That sort of thing. We certainly would like more than the two line and square formations of Caeasr III.

Weaponry
One of the most feared and effective weapons of the Roman legions were the ballistae. While C3 did include them on towers, there were mobile versions that nearly always accompanied legions. There should be different workshops that produce different weapon types (gladius, pilum, ballista), the outputs of which will affect the level of armament of a division.


Definitely want more weapon types and the troops that used them.

Experience and Morale
One of the reasons for the effectiveness of the Roman legions included the experience level of the legionaries. The effectiveness of a legion should be in part related to the number of battles in which they've fought. Also, a certain percentage of loyal soldiers should follow you as governer during your career from one city to the next (if the "career" aspect of C3 remains). Finally, a major factor in the morale of the soldiers involved the monetary benefits derived from conquests. Therefore, the looting of enemy soldiers and neighboring territories should have an effect on their morale.


Morale and experience would be good. Troops were promised land. As they retire from the military they should start farms on their new land in the province in which they served.

Thea
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Postby Thea » Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:47 pm

One of the things I liked about Zeus was that you could turn on the auto-defend if you want to.
Rather then having to slow the game down and call out the troops you could just wait until the commanders set up your troops and then take over if you liked or not if you had something more interesting to do.

mouse
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Postby mouse » Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:02 am

What I would like to see in C4 would be the return to two city buiding tracks :D A peaceful track and military track would delight me no end ;)

Jimaaten
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Location: Hanford, California, USA

Postby Jimaaten » Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:55 am

mouse wrote:What I would like to see in C4 would be the return to two city buiding tracks :D A peaceful track and military track would delight me no end ;)
Prepare to be delighted...

From the official FAQ:
When selecting the province you wish to govern, you can choose scenarios that require combat or scenarios that have very little or no combat.

Hadrian
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Location: Melbourne,Australia

Postby Hadrian » Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:49 am

Keith wrote:.



Morale and experience would be good. Troops were promised land. As they retire from the military they should start farms on their new land in the province in which they served.



This i think is a good idea as the army and its upkeep is what made Rome so great ,so an army that had members who had to be replenished as they retired from it would be a bonus.
Also Rome absorbed alot of local tribes into their culture while expanding so perhaps the locality could determine the military unit for that province.

Anguille
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Location: Bern, Switzerland

Postby Anguille » Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:56 am

The guys of Slitherine (indie devs) are working on a battle engine with Romans. It's not a click-fest and would suit very well with Caesar IV. I find, it would be worth to take a look and maybe establish contact...these guys are cool too.

Slitherine

Kiya
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Postby Kiya » Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:44 am

Anguille wrote:The guys of Slitherine (indie devs) are working on a battle engine with Romans. It's not a click-fest and would suit very well with Caesar IV. I find, it would be worth to take a look and maybe establish contact...these guys are cool too.



I saw somewhere on the new Caesar IV pages that they have a brand new 3d graphics engine developed specifically for this title. But I guess it always good to know what others are doing. :)

Keith
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Postby Keith » Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:45 am

Anguille wrote:The guys of Slitherine (indie devs) are working on a battle engine with Romans. It's not a click-fest and would suit very well with Caesar IV. I find, it would be worth to take a look and maybe establish contact...these guys are cool too.

Slitherine


Is this the Legion II game or the Arena Legion game?

Anguille
Posts: 161
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Location: Bern, Switzerland

Postby Anguille » Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:53 am

Keith wrote:Is this the Legion II game or the Arena Legion game?


It's Arena....it will be released this year. Legion II is a civ game that will use the battle engine of Arena and is their next game.

Rubicon
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:29 pm
Location: Manchester, NH USA

Postby Rubicon » Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:44 am

Phil Walker wrote:OR a combination of both as well. All determined by goals within each scenario and/or mission. Good point :D !!!

Sincerely,
Phil



With a diplomacy option, it would be possible for each player to create his/her own path, be it peaceful or military, by deciding how to deal with unfriendly neighbors. You could choose to build up your legions and deal with it through military means or to build up economically and use wealth and influence as the preferred path.

maucat
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Location: N.Yorkshire, UK

Postby maucat » Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:51 am

Rubicon wrote:With a diplomacy option, it would be possible for each player to create his/her own path, be it peaceful or military, by deciding how to deal with unfriendly neighbors. You could choose to build up your legions and deal with it through military means or to build up economically and use wealth and influence as the preferred path.


I like that idea. I'm very peace loving :)

xau99
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 9:18 pm

War war war

Postby xau99 » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:47 pm

Sorry, tried to read as many posts as possible before adding my 2 cents. If this is covered forgive me.
First I am very very very excited about CIV
Second is my request - I hope we can control the army when we send it abroad . Instead of waiting for an answer of whether you have won or lost be able to enter the city you are attacking and control your army.


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