Military Tutorial

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aramann
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Postby aramann » Sat May 17, 2008 2:29 pm

See... yet another thing I have yet to experience... my prefects have never fought on a bridge!
Are you placing your prefects inside or outside your walls?
The first two invasions are to show how much can be accomplished by prefects and traps alone. Never underestimate the power of a couple of prefects and some towers!
I'd run across the issue of the third invasion wanting to head north towards the rbidge before. Try replaying it. Better yet, use your cavalry to lure the invaders back to where you want to fight. Keep them about 8-10 tiles away and they won't square up against each other.

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Mon May 19, 2008 12:49 am

Well...

I probably should have added more forts for the final battle. I only added 2 more Heavies. Enemy appeared & I went "uh oh"

Lost all my 10 forts, 3 recruitment posts, 2 drill yards, 2 mess halls, a granary in the military section & 5/6 prefects by the bridge.

Last enemy cohort with 2 clowns ran around sticking their tongues out at me & finally left the map. BUT, it wasn't that close. The remaining enemy kept running back to the trap to get killed after I had no more soldiers. :rolleyes:

I was rebuilding & turning on the trade ports to finally import as many weapons & armor as I could, expecting Caesar's buddy again when the "win" screen popped up.

Can't really claim victory ~ survival only. At least my Security rating on the win screen is not ZERO! :D

Question ~ I had no Governor's residence, so shouldn't I have lost after my last fort/soldier was destroyed? :eek:

I loved it, Hieronymus! Thank you so much! :D

EDIT: Adding an image of my city going into the final battle. I DID make an emergency save in the middle of the battle. Did I lose a cohort immediately after its fort was destroyed? I didn't think the game worked that way. Anyway, the enemy behaved differently then I expected. It looks like someone did some creative scripting or something, although I admit to never having fought Caesar before with very confident heavies. If I replay, the results will be quite different. ;)
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Hieronymus
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Postby Hieronymus » Mon May 19, 2008 8:02 am

Congratulations Tinkerbell!! Glad you liked it! :D

Actually (and I am probably safe to say this as aramann is very likely too hung over to notice at the moment :p ), aramann deserves most of the credit for this scenario. She wrote all the messaging stuff (drawing on a lot of the tips on various threads in this forum) and decided on the sequence of events, invasions and so on. I just scripted it to order :D Image

Given the nature of the tutorial, I had to script the invasions in a "non-standard" way, which probably explains the strange behaviour of the enemy cohorts. It also probably explains why the loss of your residence did not trigger defeat as it would do with the usual invasion from Caesar (we subsequently noticed this in another scenario development - and have adapted the script appropriately :rolleyes :)

As for targetting - there wasn't much specific targetting going on, except in a couple of the invasions. One was the second trap invasion, another was a later invasion that targets sheep farms :rolleyes: Other than that, the invaders will exhibit the default behaviour, which may or may not involve targetting military buildings...

Victory is Victory - you survived past the last invasion, which is "all" that is required. :D

aramann
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Postby aramann » Mon May 19, 2008 8:56 pm

"Hieronymus" wrote:Actually (and I am probably safe to say this as aramann is very likely too hung over to notice at the moment :p ), aramann deserves most of the credit for this scenario. She wrote all the messaging stuff (drawing on a lot of the tips on various threads in this forum) and decided on the sequence of events, invasions and so on. I just scripted it to order :D Image


Congrats Tinkerbell! Glad you liked it!
I'm just now coming out of the fog from Saturday night. So you won't get away with this for long Hieronymus... You did all that hard work! I just had ideas!

Hieronymus
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Postby Hieronymus » Mon May 19, 2008 10:03 pm

Hard work, A? I wouldn't know hard work even if it dressed itself up as a Image and said "Fancy a bit of hard work, Hiero?" :p

Novicia
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Postby Novicia » Tue May 20, 2008 1:04 am

I'm really enjoying this tutorial, despite my lack of battle skills. At the moment that consists of breaking out in a sweat and waggling the sword around in a panicky fashion. Doesn't help that half my army are engaging in battle while the other half are still marching sedately towards the invasion site (must be deploying incorrectly?). There was one battle where I thought I'd lost all my archers as they were nowhere to be seen. Turned out they were still standing outside the fort :D Is there any hope for me, I wonder?
Anyhow, I have somehow survived up to and including the Germans so far.

I love those prefects - right action men they are, mopping up those left over enemies. Is it right if an enemy refuses to fight then my soldiers won't touch them? Because my soldiers stood like lemons and no amount of sword clicking would get them to finish off those strays. It was only when they started wandering around that patrolling prefects pounced.

Judging by Tinkerbell's post there's a lot more to expect, and a lot more to do. Forewarned is forearmed :)

Rosa
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Postby Rosa » Tue May 20, 2008 2:44 pm

This was a ton of fun, and I learned a lot from this tutorial. Thanks so much, I have a much better understanding of the military game-play now. More please!!!!! :o

aramann
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Postby aramann » Fri May 23, 2008 12:23 am

Rosa, congratulations! Good job! You've survived!
Novica... there IS a lot more... congrats on getting through so far! I'll tell you, that last invasion is a doozy! But you'll do fine if you place as many forts as you can as soon as you are able to. Good luck! We look forward to seeing your victory screen posted here soon!

Novicia
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Postby Novicia » Wed May 28, 2008 1:58 am

Aarr. I just want a piece of the victory screen. Aarr.

But - things are starting to get buggy. Screen freezes, crashing out to the desktop and strange things with my forts. According to the military advisor some forts have 0 soldiers but the fort information reveals 20/20 very confident. No soldiers come out of the forts for training. When I deleted one of the forts, there were the soldiers - all huddled together. Wonder what they were doing? :D

Anyhow, got as far as seeing off the double Parthian heavies. I enjoyed that one. First invasion where I managed to form some semblence of formation in time for the battle! Can't progress any further due to the crashes.

Going to replay from an earlier save and see what happens. I'm determined to get that victory screen one day even if it means redownloading the tutorial and starting from scratch!

Herodotus
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Postby Herodotus » Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:26 am

I thought this scenario would never end. :rolleyes:

Nice one. Here're some screenies:

City view
Trade port
Some of my cavary decide to go paddling. Nothing would make them change their minds
A mysterious Doctor appeared through a rift in time and used a device which he called a sonic wand to freeze the evil weapon's deadly load.



Just want to add that you don't necessarily need to place a granary when you place a mess hall, because the way it was presented indicates that you do. A Mess hall is a sort of granary, and it will fetch food directly from farms if they are nearby. Having said that, granaries were needed here because of the long distance between the forts and the farms.

Secondly, an early message was slightly confusing, ambiguous anyway. It was the one about placing warehouses for weapons and armour needing at least 20 of each. That's 20 weapons and armour, not 20 warehouses! :D
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aramann
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Postby aramann » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:18 pm

"Herodotus" wrote:I thought this scenario would never end. :rolleyes:

A mysterious Doctor appeared through a rift in time and used a device which he called a sonic wand to freeze the evil weapon's deadly load.


Just a couple of points...
Just want to add that you don't necessarily need to place a granary when you place a mess hall, because the way it was presented indicates that you do. A Mess hall is a sort of granary, and it will fetch food directly from farms if they are nearby. Having said that, granaries were needed here because of the long distance between the forts and the farms.

Secondly, an early message was slightly confusing, ambiguous anyway, It was the one about placing warehouses for weapons and armour needing at least 20 of each. That's 20 weapons and armour, not 20 warehouses! :D



It does indeed take a while Herodotus... but we felt that a player could move through at their own pace and replay if necessary as there's no need to treat this with any other specific goal in mind other than survival.
About the mess hall... this is VERY true, except, of course, in this particular map. If one can place a mess hall near a farm or even a trade post that imports food there is no need to place a granary nearby. I chose this map because of the difficulty people seem to have with cohorts and bridges and simply getting over water in time to meet and greet the enemy. Also because the great and wonderful Hieronymus used it first and it's still my favorite map... for a variety of reasons!
Good point about the warehouses.... we'll note that for a future update.
Speaking of which, I've promised a walkthrough... sorry it's taken so long, RL has thrown me a few curveballs lately but I'm back on the game now and have time to work on this. Should be up sometime soon!
Thanks for playing Herodotus, glad you enjoyed it. Anything you would like to critique or praise??? :p
PS - I'm sure you know who this mysterious "doctor" is??? I'm a huge fan thanks to the undertaking of another huge fan who got me hooked on BBC America.... The incidence of this occurs on said fan's birthday and was my very first "easter egg"!

Kiya
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Postby Kiya » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:24 am

This was SO frustrating. I was determined to do it, and so I did.
The map was good, lots of resources to make money so the player can learn C4 warfare. But it soon became clear to me that I must focus my attention more on trying to make soldiers move than anything else.

The Notorious Bridge Battle :eek: :rolleyes: The first one with only prefects was Ok, but the next one there went on and on and on and on ad infinitum. Some men were on the bridge, some were doing something under the bridge, but nothing much happened there. Tried even deleting the bridge to get them moving, but can't do that during an invasion. ( And no, don't say anything about using a save game. :p ) Invaders were there at least about a year. I guess they finally sorted themselves out of there somehow, but I wasn't there, was building the city (I spent almost a year watching that bridge!) Some of mine stayed there until the win screen, although the bridge was deleted loooong ago (now that was very sneaky of me I know :D ). *shrug*

The minimap. Now that was lying half of the time. It was again so frustrating when you didn't really know for sure where the invaders are, or are there really anybody there. Plus the invader sign(s) was/were moving, I zoomed in but couldn't see anybody.

Bridges in general were a pain. This map had rivers and resources all over so you are forced to use them. Now when you tried to move six to seven units of soldiers across a bridge it sometimes took (game) months. The first will start maneuverings by the bridge, think for a while until they finally get from four in line to a more suitable line to get over the bridge (hope this makes sense). And the rest of them are waiting, or they are still at the drill yard, or they are still on the previous battle field somewhere across the map, or they are stuck by another bridge, or .... At the end some where never there where I wanted them to be. Once they got there it was all over. I was asked to give them some work at the drill yard after an invasion, but as soon as I was giving them orders to go back to their forts there was a message of a coming battle in 3 months. Oh great. :rolleyes: Mars did most of the drilling for me. :cool: Besides no use sending them to the drill yard, I was never able to call them back in time once I had pushed the train button.

There must be some short keys for the army, but the tutorial never mentioned them. I think I have read about them somewhere, but I wasn't going to check that, I wanted to rely on what the tutorial said. BTW I am not sure it is 'nice' to mention the prima guide. Not everyone has it, and besides I think the tutorial itself might give that information by mentioning who of the invaders are stronger, who weaker.

It was a nice hint about using inexperienced soldiers to hunt down some losers running around the map. In my experience I never got any of my men to even touch at them. Most of my men just stood there, and didn't shoot them even if an enemy was right in front of them. This meant that the enemy was in the city still longer a time and no military building was possible. :mad:

Engineers and towers. I wonder if this was scripted, but a couple of times a few towers collapsed , 'lack of maintenance' although an engineer was right beside them. Therefore I lost some prosperity points (was over 90) because of 'no walls' although the main city was not harmed during the final battle.

'Send them to the area outside of the wall where the invasion will come in.' This was a bit confusing, since the whole city wasn't walled yet, and the military area was never walled in. For a second I thought if this meant I should wall them too. BTW I think it was the first Parthians that arrived in the North, not North-West.

Everything took 'forever', I admit I was a bit frustrated. I wonder if this is one reason not so many win screens here. Of course many have played and won... no need to post anything here. :)

PICS
#1 and 2 soldiers on the Bridge (with a capital letter!) and under it. Note the dates, it took longer but I left the scene.

#3 Definitely the wall is on the other direction, and this invader doesn't want to fight, so what is he doing? lol Anyway my soldiers never threatened him, just prefects.

#4 and 5 Yes, my soldiers obviously felt sorry for these cowards, they never even touched them. :mad:

# 6 minimap lying. there is nobody there. :mad:

# 7 this regiment loved the Bridge so much they never left once they had set their feet on it. (pic taken not long before final victory)

# 8 my city before the final battle

# 9 win screen
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Last edited by Kiya on Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

Hieronymus
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Postby Hieronymus » Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:57 pm

Thanks for the feedback Kiya :) As we've said, aramann and I plan to produce a release 2 of the tutorial, so all suggestions for improvement are much appreciated!

As the one in the Axis who is definitely NOT the Military Expert, I'll just pick up on a few of your points I know I can answer ;)


"Kiya" wrote:The minimap. Now that was lying half of the time. It was again so frustrating when you didn't really know for sure where the invaders are, or are there really anybody there. Plus the invader sign(s) was/were moving, I zoomed in but couldn't see anybody.

Yes the minimap is a pain - especially the way that enemy cohorts, once they are wiped out, just seem to float off across the minimap before disappearing...


"Kiya" wrote:There must be some short keys for the army, but the tutorial never mentioned them. I think I have read about them somewhere, but I wasn't going to check that, I wanted to rely on what the tutorial said. BTW I am not sure it is 'nice' to mention the prima guide. Not everyone has it, and besides I think the tutorial itself might give that information by mentioning who of the invaders are stronger, who weaker.

I seem to recall us discussing the shortcuts at some point in the scenario development, but can't remember why we didn't include them in the tutorial. Certainly it sounds as if it would be a useful thing to add for release 2! As to the Prima guide, we didn't quote the figures because we weren't sure about copyright issues - we spent time looking at the game files but couldn't see where their figures came from. But giving a qualitative description of their comparative strengths sounds a great idea to me. :)

"Kiya" wrote:Engineers and towers. I wonder if this was scripted, but a couple of times a few towers collapsed , 'lack of maintenance' although an engineer was right beside them. Therefore I lost some prosperity points (was over 90) because of 'no walls' although the main city was not harmed during the final battle.

Nope. No scripting of collapsing towers in this scenario (would I ever do a thing like that? ;) ), so it must be a game feature. No idea why they should have collapsed if you had a staffed engineer post in the vicinity.

"Kiya" wrote:'Send them to the area outside of the wall where the invasion will come in.' This was a bit confusing, since the whole city wasn't walled yet, and the military area was never walled in. For a second I thought if this meant I should wall them too. BTW I think it was the first Parthians that arrived in the North, not North-West.

Ah yes... originally we intended to halt the tutorial until the city was walled in. Unfortunately detecting that condition through the script cannot be done directly - a security rating above 50 is one way of doing this (but if a previous invasion has torched a prefecture or something then it may be some time before security reaches that level) - another is to detect evolving domi or villas (but again, the player does not need to evolve anything in this game, or even have patricians at all). Rather than let the tutorial get "stuck" we allowed players three months to wall in as much of their city as they wanted, before moving on to the next bit. Looks like we may need to reword that message...

"Kiya" wrote:Everything took 'forever', I admit I was a bit frustrated. I wonder if this is one reason not so many win screens here. Of course many have played and won... no need to post anything here. :)

Nonetheless, it's a great job to win through! Were there any of the invasions you felt were "unnecessary" from the point of view of "this does not teach me anything new"? If so, please let us know by PM :) Thanks for playing, Kiya :D

Kiya
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Postby Kiya » Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:05 pm

I found the thread about C4 hotkeys, note posts 11 and 12. http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12239&highlight=hotkeys

aramann
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Postby aramann » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:59 pm

THANK YOU for playing Kiya!
Always an honor to have a player of such stature attempt anything I may have had a finger in creating!

The HARDEST part of the C4 military IS getting them to simply... MOVE. I only had really one specific message in about this, although there were other hints... which is simply click and click and click. Reading through the military constants file, I've found that certain enemies DO have certain strengths... I DO believe that there are possibly ways to abuse this (for a future scenario) as it looks as if the designers simply left a job half done, perhaps in their rush to get this out. Testing on this is ongoing. It's not necessarily fair to quote the Prima Guide... but it's the closest I could come, and we DID try hard to give a fair idea of enemy strength. Once again, testing out these numbers and double checking them against the military constants file is ongoing and a very large task.
Back to gettting the idiot cohorts to move? Several little tricks, quickly mothball and unmothball their fort, click on a destination about TEN (this is very specific, details later if anyone wants them) ROAD tiles away from any enemy, and even delete and undo, once again, VERY quickly, the fort.
Mars is HUGE for anything military. A lot of times having a drill yard is really unnecessary with really good Mars coverage. The greatest blessing gives ALL soldiers and ALL forts currently placed what is equivalent to elite status, minus the battle experience. And that's yet another note. Battle experience, as is training, is NOt infinite. It seems to me that as a player progrresses, it's not necessary to really train beyond anything over 32 weeks as it works like a math problem. Where as each session of training and each battle for already elite soldiers DOES add a bit more strength, but the amount added gets successively less and less as training and battle experience happen. Safe bet? ALWAYS, aim for at least 12 weeks training or a Mars bene. Better? Aim for 2 battles experience and 24 - 32 weeks training. Once again, this is information I've dug out of that file and is STILL being very much tested!
Thank you SO much for playing! And congrats on your win screen!
Last edited by aramann on Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: clarification, calcificationi, whichever...

aramann
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Postby aramann » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:34 am

The bug noticed, where if an invasion happens while one is walling in a city and the pointer/mouse tends to get "stuck" on the wall symbol....
Easy fix. Simply click on the "main menu" button (the one that looks like the power button of many pc's) and click back out. Problem solved.
I tested this quite a few times and in three different scenarios so it worked for me, hopefully it will work for everyone!

Jimaaten
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Postby Jimaaten » Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:37 pm

Man, that was a long slog to the end. My computer started lagging badly toward the end. I think there was some snow starting and armies everywhere when the lag turned to a freeze and then the game just quit to desktop. Fortunately, I had a save which I went back to and eventually won.

I had a similar experience to Tink where the geek invasion went around instead of over the wall, essentially heading away from my army. I placed the towers first and then the walls. Would doing something different actually work? It worked out okay with the prefects help. But the trap seemed to confuse my cavalry more than it did the enemy.

My experience with training was similar to Kiya's. By the time my soldiers finally wandered back to their forts, I'd click on training and, when the first one would get to the drill yard, the invasion notice would come. I gave up and let Mars handle all the training.

I wonder if military maneuvers are as dependent on processor speed as prefects are. I found with all the movement over bridges, etc. that I had to ignore the instruction on when to send the troops out. When I waited until six weeks, most of my troops were still moving (across bridges mostly) when the invaders arrived. If I sent them at the three month mark, they would arrive in time.

One thing I found that sped things up a little bit was to add a second bridge if possible. It doesn't half the time it takes, but it does help.

Cavalry is a lot tougher than I thought. I had an elite group with at least 4 battles under its belt. I sent them to slow down a full heavy infantry of germans while my heavy infantry caught up. Before my heavies arrived, the cavalry had destroyed the enemy, with no losses. Dang, they're good.

A few minor criticisms that I had:

  • The map is beautiful, but a lot of the invasions happen in areas where there is a lot of timber. This makes it rather difficult to see what is happening. I know you can delete them to clear the area, but my thinking is that this is a tutorial to help with basic military and it would be easier to see the foes without the trees. ;) (I personally hate to destroy resources if I don't have to.)
  • I had a little confusion on the instructions for placing forts. (I needed a lot more space for all the forts than was inside that red square.) At first, the instructions seemed to say place them right next to each other. I know there needs to be space so I left 3 tiles on most sides and 6 on the front side. Then the instructions said to leave 2 tiles between them. What the hay? I finally realized you meant 2 standard road widths. (A standard road is 3 tiles wide.)
  • I kept wondering when the game was going to end. I'd have an invasion, win it and wait for victory. "I guess that wasn't it; I defeated the enemy, but there isn't any win-screen." It might help with player morale if there were some waypoints. "Nicely done. Only three more invasions to go until Victory." Or something similar. (After the GS invasion wasn't the last one, I almost gave up. "This is the neverending story." :p )
Thanks for all of your hard work on this. On to bigger and better things...maybe. :o

Pics:

  1. I think some of those are my guys. They're fighting, so some of them must be.
  2. Two bridges. Cohorts still go across one at a time, but they use both bridges. So, instead of one single file, they split and do two single files across each bridge. It doesn't cut the time required in half, but it does speed it up. Worth it to me if I have the money and space.
  3. I think the enemy is there somewhere. I just can't really see them. Dang those December invasions.
  4. Victory at last.
  5. Just because it's a military outpost doesn't mean you can't have a grand city. :p
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Kiya
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Postby Kiya » Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:00 pm

"Jimaaten" wrote:I kept wondering when the game was going to end. I'd have an invasion, win it and wait for victory. "I guess that wasn't it; I defeated the enemy, but there isn't any win-screen." It might help with player morale if there were some waypoints. "Nicely done. Only three more invasions to go until Victory." Or something similar. (After the GS invasion wasn't the last one, I almost gave up. "This is the neverending story." :p )


I totally agree with this. Especially I love these words It might help with player morale if .... :D

Rnett
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Postby Rnett » Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:53 pm

"Kiya" wrote:I totally agree with this. Especially I love these words It might help with player morale if .... :D


I didn't see your screens until now, #3 is the best of them all.... :D

aramann
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Postby aramann » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:39 pm

"Jimaaten" wrote:Man, that was a long slog to the end.

It's intended to be something you can play with as you wish, and very slowly build up to the Roman invasion. There are indeed ways to make it happen quickly though.

[/QUOTE]I had a similar experience to Tink where the geek invasion went around instead of over the wall, essentially heading away from my army. I placed the towers first and then the walls. Would doing something different actually work? It worked out okay with the prefects help. But the trap seemed to confuse my cavalry more than it did the enemy. [/QUOTE]
This is noted for an update to this, the geeks shouldn't behave this way. Must beat them. :cool:

[/QUOTE]My experience with training was similar to Kiya's. By the time my soldiers finally wandered back to their forts, I'd click on training and, when the first one would get to the drill yard, the invasion notice would come. I gave up and let Mars handle all the training.[/QUOTE]
That's definitely an option, Mars is awesome! :)

[/QUOTE]Cavalry is a lot tougher than I thought. I had an elite group with at least 4 battles under its belt. I sent them to slow down a full heavy infantry of germans while my heavy infantry caught up. Before my heavies arrived, the cavalry had destroyed the enemy, with no losses. Dang, they're good.[/QUOTE]
I love cavalry!!!! :D

A few minor criticisms that I had:

[/QUOTE][LIST]
[*]The map is beautiful, but a lot of the invasions happen in areas where there is a lot of timber. This makes it rather difficult to see what is happening. I know you can delete them to clear the area, but my thinking is that this is a tutorial to help with basic military and it would be easier to see the foes without the trees. ;) (I personally hate to destroy resources if I don't have to.)
[/QUOTE]
Understood.
[/QUOTE]
[*]I had a little confusion on the instructions for placing forts. (I needed a lot more space for all the forts than was inside that red square.) At first, the instructions seemed to say place them right next to each other. I know there needs to be space so I left 3 tiles on most sides and 6 on the front side. Then the instructions said to leave 2 tiles between them. What the hay? I finally realized you meant 2 standard road widths. (A standard road is 3 tiles wide.)
[/QUOTE]
Sorry, we can edit this to be more explanatory as well.
[/QUOTE]Thanks for all of your hard work on this. On to bigger and better things...maybe. :o [/QUOTE]
Check out Iceni Queen over at http://www.citybuildingcontests.net. All the hard work in this tutorial make that nasty little scenario MUCH easier! :D


[/QUOTE]

Thanks for playing and THANK YOU for the feedback!
Last edited by aramann on Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: oui, MUSt come back and edit the "quotes" here but it'll have to wait until I have more time :-(


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