Bus Stop & Subway

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Tinkerbell
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Bus Stop & Subway

Postby Tinkerbell » Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:01 pm

Anyone got a handle on these yet?

They appear to work well & really clean up my streets of cars at times. They definitely have an impact on rogue production. Mostly I have not really used them yet, cuz I like the gridlock chaos (especially by placing Workplaces far away from Homes).

When I have added them, I have done both & what I had considered lots of each ~ about eight.

The Game Guide Building Directory has Passenger Capacity ~ 5 for Bus Stop & 10 for Subway. What does this mean?

Perhaps I should be adding even more, like two Subways next to each other?

Lilbluesmurf
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Postby Lilbluesmurf » Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:53 pm

When I did my cities for the sole purpose of getting trophies I did simple blocks roughly 6 or 7 housing units wide and more than 2 deep (to account for the larger buisinesses and venues. Anyways, I stuck a 2 subways catercorner at each intersection and even on my larger ~1000 worker cities I got few cars on the streets.

The 10 capacity is relevant in that 10 sims can be 'in transit' from that station at one time. There were often some steady streams of sims going in and out during rush hours. It seems like transit time is quite fast, but I haven't tested.

You might try placing just two and see if you can figure how fast it actually is, "speed = 12" doesn't mean much in terms of actual play. :confused: One thing I can say though, is that at only 1 tile each (for subway), filling in gaps every now and then with extra can't be a bad thing.

ManagerJosh
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Postby ManagerJosh » Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:24 pm

I've found that busses weren't that great. Looked good on the map, but subways seem to be my choice of getting people moving from point a to b efficently.

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:41 pm

Yeah, I'm wondering about those busses also, but I haven't tried only busses yet or built cities with them in mind first.

Subways rock, almost too well! Their tiny footprint allows them to be placed, after the fact easily, cuz I usually have nooks & crannies. Definitely place them in the traffic flow & not on the end of dead-end streets.

Then I add a new road and/or bridge somewhere & the total traffic pattern changes! :D

Good stuff, thankx!

panikattak
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Postby panikattak » Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:20 pm

Here is a pic of one of my earliest towns. If you look closely this is a no-road town but I did use subways to help distance traveling sims.
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FomarTHain
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Postby FomarTHain » Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:21 pm

I usually build bus stops as logic aesthetics dictate. That is, a bus stop would be here regardless of if I need it so I will put one there. Subways I solely put in when traffic (or car emissions) gets to high.

Subways for aesthetics really doesn't matter as they are so small they get lost in cities plus there is nothing cool about them. No trains or animations or what not. So I see subways as strictly a tool not for being cool or logical.

I'd really like something cool aesthetically for subways so there is an aesthetic reason for placing them. Moving subway cars would rock.

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:25 pm

Yup, Panikattak, you used a "few". :D

So many ways to pay this game that I haven't even begun to try....

No roads ~ Sweet!

panikattak
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Postby panikattak » Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:16 pm

There are three forms of travel in Societies: walking, roads, subways. The subway is interesting if it's thought of as a teleporter instead. One of my experimental cities was of a city that had a subway enterance built at the entrance of each building so most of their traveling was the distance from the door to the subway back to the door again. Some sims still walked around but the happiness level of my sims went up as they could go between venues very quickly when relaxing by taking the teleporters instead of walking.

That city was difficult to play. All spiritual buildings so they generate little cash and with the difficulty turned up and the maintainance mod, it was difficult to get this town to run ok. I learned a lot, like making town centers and about placing buildings that modify the output of other buildings. Ialso had to build about 15% of the buildings by using the volunteer drive because it was the only way I could afford to build.

One thing I haven't had the time to check into yet is when I'm building my city, sometimes I'm going from the center outwards and as it happens, sometimes I place a house on one side of the city and a work place on the other side. I'm not sure, but when a sim chooses a place to work, they always work there and if the above situation happens where the house is on one side of town and the workplace on the other, then it creates a long commute path. Subways is a good way to help the symptoms but I was thinking about testing one of my cities by pausing the game, destroy and identically replace every workplace so it breaks the sim's connection to its former workplace forcing them to refind a workplace, perhaps closer to home.

Because of subways, roads are unnecessary because if the placement is correct, a sim could walk into a subway and reappear right next to the building they need to be at totally avoiding all that time driving.

And I haven't said anything about it, but I have three large cities, around 600-1000 sims, two have roads and one does not but does have subways. The towns with roads crash regularly and the one that doesn't is stable. I think it's coincidence but maybe...

Sorry if I come of rambling and incoherent. I have to get out the door and mostly off the top of my head however it's all loosely interconnected and I was just firing stuff off but I hope you get at least something from it.

wizaerd
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Postby wizaerd » Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:22 pm

I haven't spent a great deal of time looking into this, but one of the things I've noticed about bus stops and subways is the sims won't use it if it's not right on top of a destination... Meaning I placed a house on one side of the map, a workplace and/or venue on the other side of the map, and subway entrances close to, but not right on top of the house and workplace. The sims just tried walking and/or driving the entire distance. Instead of walking a short way to the subway, appearing at the other subway entrance then walking the rest of the way to the workplace...

As I said, I haven't spent much time investigating, so I may be completely incorrect... but it appears this way sometimes...

SlightlyMadman
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Postby SlightlyMadman » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:04 pm

What's the difference between the bus and subway, besides cost and footprint? Do the bus stops function as "teleporters" like the subways, and if so, can they travel from one to the other (enter a bus stop and leave a subway)? If not, how to the bus stops function? What dictates which a sim will use, since they don't have wealth levels like in SC4?

Lilbluesmurf
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Postby Lilbluesmurf » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:34 am

Subway has "speed = 12" and Bus stop has "Speed = 10". They also each have a weight that "is a multiplier times the distance between any two units of that type, used in normal pathing weights." Subway is 0.10, Bus stop is 0.25.

The way I have interpreted that is that a subway will cut distance between two points to 1/10 if traveled on foot, while a bus does 1/4. I think speed is only relevant in the sims actually entering/exiting not pathing. Though it may be that a constant number based on speed is added to the time gotten by dist x weight.

People would then still drive if it is faster (without jams) to just jump in a car (no speed based wait) or the road allows for a high enough velocity that it is equivalent to the subway.

SlightlyMadman
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Postby SlightlyMadman » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:00 pm

That's kind lame, so the bus has absolutely no advantage over the subway, other than marginally lower cost, whereas the subway features smaller footprint, faster travel, and increased attractiveness?

panikattak
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Postby panikattak » Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:27 pm

One interesting way to perform experiments is to start a city on the flatest land possible, then place three groups of buildings each consisting of homes, workplaces, and venues all seperated by quite a bit of distance. Then it's easy to experiment with subways, roads, buses, and walking and it becomes apparent why the sims do what they do by watching their easily explainable movements.

Fom these experiments, I also have a better understanding over the creation of and the use of special sims, preferences of certain venues over others, efficiency with placement of buildings and transportation, and several other interesting facets of the engine.

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:38 pm

There was a question by JuliaSet in another thread about whether or not Subways work across water. I thought this would be the best place to put my Lab results. The answer is YES!

The playfield is on Fastest speed & Challenging difficulty. I used two Sleep Tube Homes, cuz they generate the needed population to unlock the Subways faster. They also create criminals & sickness, so a police station workplace was needed & hospital venue, at least near the homes (my understanding, so far, that will probably change).

West is Homes & East is workplaces (except for police station workplace). Like my tiny bridge? :eek:

I didn't try deleting the bridge, cuz that wouldn't be a good lab (placing & then deleting might change things). However, a SWAG that the bridge is not required, is a good one (but one never knows ;) ).

Two Venues at each location (four different total Venues, not counting hospital). These are final playfield images. I let the game run for a few weeks before I added any Subways.

1) West Homes ~ Initially, I placed pairs of Subways ~ The two to the right. Sims still drove to work across the bridge pretty much all the time. They subwayed home. They also Subwayed to get to the extra Venues to the east across the bridge on weekends, etc.

Then I added the two on the left in this image, directly across from the homes. Sims stopped driving to work. Image shows Sims crossing the street to use subway to go to work. The other Sims, still on the Homes side of the street; walk to the end of the block, cross the street, & go into the subway. The dead-end street ends immediately off-screen to the left.

2) East Workplaces ~ Sims exiting Subway on the East to go to work. This side never changed in buildings. I'm wondering if the reason they Subwayed home is that they first went to the venues here & that placed the Sims nearer to the Subways then if I didn't have any venues on this side of the bridge at all?

Where we place our Subways is very important it appears. Perhaps, too far away from Subways & they drive anyway? Very interesting.

Initial results only
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LadyCrimson
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Postby LadyCrimson » Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:00 pm

I've noticed that if you have streets, Sims will walk out of their way to get to a subway station if it's placed, say, across the street from their 'home' building.

For instance, you put the subway on the left side of a street. The Sims in the homes on the right side will walk up the street (or down) to an intersection, cross over, and walk up/down the street (a "u' turn, if you will) to the subway station. This has annoyed me (heh) because it would be faster for them to just leave their house via their own car, than do all that extra walking. But since the station is there, 'just across the street', they'll all take a stroll.

So in those cases, you either have to build multiple subway stations for all sides of streets, or build in such a way that you have intersections every few feet, or not build stations at all, or ... I haven't figured it out yet either myself. :)

Sims seem to generally avoid crossing a street that has no intersection ... at least when it comes to transportation.

Jimaaten
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Postby Jimaaten » Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:14 pm

Looking at subways, I noticed that when you go to place one, it turns the entrances to nearby buildings red. I wonder if that might be a clue to who uses them.

Screen 1 and 2: I built a block with a subway stop in the middle. The 4 housing surrounding it all had their entries turn red when placing subway. I had placed the top 2 facing "up" in the picture. Their entries didn't light up.

#3: Sims exitted the top 2 bldgs. (non-red entries) and walked off to venues.

#4: Sims left all 4 bldgs. from the back doors and enterred the subway. I chose one, AC, to follow.

#5: In a little while, AC popped out of subway about 1/4 of the way across town, heading toward a venue.

#6: AC was headed toward the Off Broadway Theatre. (He didn't make it before it closed. :( ) The theatre isn't within the original range of subway when placed; the entry to the theatre doesn't turn red when the subway exit he took was placed. This subway didn't even seem to be the closest walking-wise to the theatre.

#7: AC heads to yet another subway to go home. I think this is closest one walking distance from the theatre. Its kind of hard to see, but the subway is to the left of the AC status window and right above the police car on the street. His path is shown in straight green lines along the street, up across at the intersection and then back to the subway. The diagonal green line runs from that subway entry to the one by his house.

#8: This just shows the completed path at home before AC enters the subway across town.

#9: This gives you an idea of the distances travelled. AC's home is in that housing block by itself in the top, center of the picture. His is the one to the left and farthest away. The 1st subway he went to, Screen #5, is just below the AC status window, between the two closed venue icons. The theatre is the bldg at the bottom middle, above the venue menu button. The subway home is hidden behind the bldg. just above the security values button.

#10: AC finally getting home. From the time stamp, it looks like approx. 3 hours travel time from the subway to home.

#11: AC leaves the house the next day and becomes a policeman. (BTW, is it just me or is someone at TM a Dr. Who fan?)

#12: Carbon emission levels drop dramatically if you have enough subways in place.

Conclusions. These are only guesses and might be totally off base.

  1. I think sims are more inclined to take the subway if a station "highlights" the entrance to their home when you place it.
  2. Deciding on the subway station to go to. Perhaps the game looks at the path the sims would use if they drove and then picks a station along the way, the one closest to the destination.
  3. Leaving a destination, if they are headed home, maybe it picks the closes one to the venue.


As I said, these are guesses, but its a place to start maybe. :o

One last thing that has nothing to do with my experiment. Subways consume power. I haven't checked, but I would guess bus stops don't. So, power consumption might be a hidden cost with subways.
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Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:18 pm

Mah TM Games™ Lab Partner has finally arrived...

Welcome aboard, Jimaaten !!! :D

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:01 pm

Now that I've had some time to look briefly at your images, Jim, I wonder. Those red thingies are probably for something. ;)

Anyway, just wanted to add power requirements from the game guide.

Bus Stop ~ -20
Subway ~ -30

I know that subways use power, cuz I have had power failures placing a zillion of them. Only did Bus Stops on one map.

veryConfused
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Postby veryConfused » Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:12 pm

The red just means that a building can not be placed there. So basically it has nothing to do with the travel, as it shows up every time you place a building

Lydia Dustbin
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Postby Lydia Dustbin » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:01 am

LadyCrimson wrote:I've noticed that if you have streets, Sims will walk out of their way to get to a subway station if it's placed, say, across the street from their 'home' building.... <clip>
I haven't figured it out yet either myself. :)

Sims seem to generally avoid crossing a street that has no intersection ... at least when it comes to transportation.


After developing a town filled with red and furious faces, despite a healthy group of venues round a central town square, I experimented with bus stops to get sims to the outside edges of the square then placed subways, on the square (plaza?) proper to take them to work over the other side of the river.
.
This worked a treat. That evening the little darlings swarmed out of the subways, over the roads and tumbled into the venues - if needed... Just a thought to pass on.
.
Lydia Dustbin


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