Hungry and tired - Going home!!!

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Norm35
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Hungry and tired - Going home!!!

Postby Norm35 » Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:03 pm

I have frequently seen the subject reason posted on traveler cards as an excuse for leaving the city early.

Only recently have I questioned this statement. On close examination, I have often found that the traveler was surrounded by restaurants and empty accommodations and had plenty of money when he/she made this statement, which was a flat out lie!

Can anyone explain what is going on here?

MidrealmDM70
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Postby MidrealmDM70 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:44 pm

"Norm35" wrote:I have frequently seen the subject reason posted on traveler cards as an excuse for leaving the city early.

Only recently have I questioned this statement. On close examination, I have often found that the traveler was surrounded by restaurants and empty accommodations and had plenty of money when he/she made this statement, which was a flat out lie!

Can anyone explain what is going on here?


Maybe they didn't like any of those restaurants/hotels?

Possibly the places they did like (ie. the more attractive locations) may have been full.

Maybe the locations were not keeping their dining and accomodation satisfaction full enough. If a traveller (such as the gourmand) is losing 13 dining satisfaction per day. And the average places where they are eating offer only 3 to 5 per day. They that means they would have to visit 3 or more venues just to break even! A stop for liesure or entertainment could put them so far behind that they end up going home after a few days.

Norm35
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Postby Norm35 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:10 am

"MidrealmDM70" wrote:Maybe they didn't like any of those restaurants/hotels?

Possibly the places they did like (ie. the more attractive locations) may have been full.

Maybe the locations were not keeping their dining and accomodation satisfaction full enough. If a traveller (such as the gourmand) is losing 13 dining satisfaction per day. And the average places where they are eating offer only 3 to 5 per day. They that means they would have to visit 3 or more venues just to break even! A stop for liesure or entertainment could put them so far behind that they end up going home after a few days.


OK, lets say they did not like the restaurant or the hotel; why!!!

There are plenty of restaurants with master chefs, every kind of restaurant in the book. I've followed gourmands around for days and despite their dining needs being red, they don't go near a restaurant. They go to a Concourse hotel and leave with a red accommodations need. I have affiliated the resorts with all kinds of venues to the point of losing money on them without changing the situation.

What makes a gourmand go to a restaurant or hotel? It doesn't appear to be because they are hungry or tired or because the venue is attractive. I have traveler counts of 270 - 300 most of the time. At times the count goes as high as 500 but these are just unexplained spikes. Getting the count average up is virtually impossible, The traveler page of the city report shows green for all (including gourmands) but burnouts, children, and gamblers. Still, I get gourmands who are "tired and hungry and going home." Visitors take home over 50% of the funds they arrive with. Are these just statistical anomalies built into the system without visible causes?

Azeem
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Postby Azeem » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:19 am

I wonder if it serves the same purpose as the news ticker phrases - that it might not actually have any real meaning at all. What mood are those departing gourmands in? I'm thinking that it's simply a case of the programming being bored and wanting to write something other than just "going home."

Norm35
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Postby Norm35 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:46 am

"Azeem" wrote:I wonder if it serves the same purpose as the news ticker phrases - that it might not actually have any real meaning at all. What mood are those departing gourmands in? I'm thinking that it's simply a case of the programming being bored and wanting to write something other than just "going home."


Interesting thought.

I would be more inclined to believe it if the traveler completed all 7 days of vacation but in all cases I have monitored the traveler left several days early

Another thing I have noticed is the negative satisfaction field for these cases. The standard spiel is something to the effect that this city has nothing of interest to me and I am going to tell my friends not to come here. If the city wa a boring place, I might buy that but I have deployed practically every venue on the menu so there is plenty to do no matter what interests you. Only a complete loser couldn't find anything of interest here.

Azeem
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Postby Azeem » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:54 am

How long have you followed those particular travellers around? Can you show a screenshot of the case discussed?

Norm35
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Postby Norm35 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:26 am

"Azeem" wrote:How long have you followed those particular travellers around? Can you show a screenshot of the case discussed?



I have followed several Gourmands each over a period of most of a game week. I usually pick one that does not have a green satisfaction balloon. It just wanders around, visits a few venues and hotels and finally goes to a transit building and disappears.

The resorts have so many affiliations that they can meet all the traveler needs without their leaving the resort so most of the problem travelers are staying elsewhere, usually a Concourse Hotel. They have to do some traveling to get their entertainment and meals. The part of the system that determines where they go may be part of the problem. I don't know of anyway to control where they go.

What kind of screenshot are you thinking about?

Azeem
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Postby Azeem » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:31 am

A screenshot of the gourmands' info card.

Norm35
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Postby Norm35 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:12 pm

"Azeem" wrote:A screenshot of the gourmands' info card.


I took your suggestion and took screen shots of the traveler cards of the problem travelers. I wound up with a lot of pictures. I am not sure which ones would be of value to analyze the problem. Can you give me some idea of what to look for.

Azeem
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Postby Azeem » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:21 am

Just post the pictures of the gourmands in question as well as their associated info cards.

Norm35
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Postby Norm35 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:42 am

"Azeem" wrote:Just post the pictures of the gourmands in question as well as their associated info cards.


There are 50 screen shots.
Do you want them all?

Azeem
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Postby Azeem » Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:12 pm

That'd be too much to sift through. How about just starting with one of any of the gourmand info cards showing the statement "Hungry and tired - Going home"? Then from there, we can look into more details.

Norm35
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Postby Norm35 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:43 pm

I have attached a few pictures to this reply.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Norm35
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Postby Norm35 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:56 pm

Azeem,

You have the distinction of receiving the first copy of my new Traveler Tracking Log. Let me know what you think of it.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

MidrealmDM70
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Postby MidrealmDM70 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:03 pm

"Norm35" wrote:I have attached a few pictures to this reply.


In all of the screenshots their dining and accomodation satisfaction is the lowest.
So I do think the message "hungry and Tired" is related to that,
but this brings back the question of Why?

Questions:
1> What is the dining satisfaction of a typical dining venue in this city?
(Are most of them around 3, 5, 7 etc.)

2> How much time (in 'sim hours' ) do the gourmands spend travelling between venues (on average)?

2a> Do the gourmands in question drive around the city, or do they tend to walk?

3> When a gourmand with dining or accomodation needs bypasses a nearby restaurant or hotel, where does he go instead?
(Are the consistent differences - such as the one he chooses is more attractive or gives more satisfaction?)

=-=-=
It may be a simple problem of the Gourmand can't travel to his chosen destination in a reasonable amount of time.
Maybe a few Taxi Cab stations (or helipads) near the most common areas gourmands visit will allow them to travel more efficiently?
Do gourmands take mass transit (bus/subway)?

Norm35
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Postby Norm35 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:30 am

"MidrealmDM70" wrote:Questions:
1> What is the dining satisfaction of a typical dining venue in this city?
(Are most of them around 3, 5, 7 etc.)


Cafe (+9) Greatest number but not frequented much
Clam Shack (+5) many and most frequented
Four Star Restaurant (+11) moderate number
Revolving Restaurant (+12) only 2

"MidrealmDM70" wrote:2> How much time (in 'sim hours' ) do the gourmands spend travelling between venues (on average)?


They spend a lot of time walking or using the bus stops, passing right by dining and accommodations when they are obviously tired and hungry.


"MidrealmDM70" wrote:2a> Do the gourmands in question drive around the city, or do they tend to walk?


They walk mostly. Second choice is the bus. They seldom go by car.


"MidrealmDM70" wrote:3> When a gourmand with dining or accomodation needs bypasses a nearby restaurant or hotel, where does he go instead?

They will walk clear across town and wind up at a scenic pier.

(Are the consistent differences - such as the one he chooses is more attractive or gives more satisfaction?)


Typically, their destinations are not particularly attractive and have satisfaction ratings of +3.

Their behavior could be be described best as , "moronic."

=-=-=
"MidrealmDM70" wrote:It may be a simple problem of the Gourmand can't travel to his chosen destination in a reasonable amount of time.
Maybe a few Taxi Cab stations (or helipads) near the most common areas gourmands visit will allow them to travel more efficiently?


I tried this but it did not seem to eliminate the few that still go home tired and hungry. Most of the Gourmands seem to perform normally.

I wonder if this is caused by the routine that decides where the traveler should go next and sends it off on a series of wild goose chases having nothing to do with fulfilling its needs. Since this behavior seems true of specific gourmands, it might be something that goes wrong with the gourmand that causes it to be sent off on these non-productive trips, where it goes right past venues that would satisfy its immediate needs. I watched one walk for many miles, going past restaurants and accommodations while its needs in these categories were clearly in the red, winding up on a very unimpressive scenic pier out in the boondocks. It repeated this behavior until it finally announced that it was going home. If only we could examine the algorithm for scheduling where the travelers are sent based on what their needs are. If the traveler announces it's needs incorrectly, it would be sent to the wrong places.

"MidrealmDM70" wrote:Do gourmands take mass transit (bus/subway)?


Yes
Last edited by Norm35 on Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

MidrealmDM70
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Postby MidrealmDM70 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:43 pm

"Norm35" wrote:I wonder if this is caused by the routine that decides where the traveler should go next and sends it off on a series of wild goose chases having nothing to do with fulfilling its needs.
...
I watched one walk for many miles, going past restaurants and accommodations while its needs in these categories were clearly in the red, winding up on a very unimpressive scenic pier out in the boondocks. It repeated this behavior until it finally announced that it was going home. If only we could examine the algorithm for scheduling where the travelers are sent based on what their needs are. If the traveler announces it's needs incorrectly, it would be sent to the wrong places.


Isn't the Scenic Pier a Tourist Trap?
Those cause travelers to go to them and spend time at them even when they don't satisy the travellers needs. In addition there is a special sim that encourages travellers to visit tourist trap - I forget the name of it. I believe resort security can help trim them down. So a building that generates resort security is almost a necessity near a tourist trap venue that generates such sims.

I believe a Taxi stand works in a radius around it, giving travellers within distance 'X' a chance to spontaneously spawn a cab to drive to their next destination. Placing a taxi stand at or near locations where travellers frequent often allows them to catch a cab when leaving that location.

With the most frequented dining areas being a 5, you might try removing some of those clam shacks. When trying to satisfy gourmands, its better to have lower quantity of dining venues with high quality. By removing some of the lower end ones, hopefuly you can force the gourmands to attend more of the Cafe' venues.

I believe a gourmand looses 13 dining satisfaction per day, so it is hard to satisfy their dining. One thing that helps is a resort with lots of associated restaurants, giving the resort a dining satisfaction of +7 or more can satisfy half of the gourmand's dining needs each time he takes a rest.
It also means that those restuarants are for Travellers only, which means associated venues only need enough capacity to handle your travellers.

A resort with six or seven associated dining venues can put a huge dent in keeping gourmands happy (provided you keep them away from the tourist traps). If you use a resort in this way, make sure a car rental location or taxi stand (or similar) is nearby. If they do decide to visit somewhere across town, you want to save them as much time as possible.

If your gourmands keep travelling far out of the way to your scenic pier, try putting a accomodation, dining venue, and taxi stand near that location.
At least that way the gourmand won't lose so much time travelling.

You mentioned that your gourmand "repeated this behavior" did he go to a different venue between each visit to the pier, or did he leave and then immediately turn back around and re-enter the pier?

Norm35
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Postby Norm35 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:23 pm

"MidrealmDM70" wrote:Isn't the Scenic Pier a Tourist Trap?
Those cause travelers to go to them and spend time at them even when they don't satisy the travellers needs. In addition there is a special sim that encourages travellers to visit tourist trap - I forget the name of it. I believe resort security can help trim them down. So a building that generates resort security is almost a necessity near a tourist trap venue that generates such sims.


Well, I used the brute force approach. I have deleted all my tourist traps.

"MidrealmDM70" wrote:With the most frequented dining areas being a 5, you might try removing some of those clam shacks. When trying to satisfy gourmands, its better to have lower quantity of dining venues with high quality. By removing some of the lower end ones, hopefuly you can force the gourmands to attend more of the Cafe' venues.


I raised the dining satisfaction of the clam shacks to 7, not the most elegant solution but lets see what effect it has.

"MidrealmDM70" wrote:I believe a gourmand looses 13 dining satisfaction per day, so it is hard to satisfy their dining. One thing that helps is a resort with lots of associated restaurants, giving the resort a dining satisfaction of +7 or more can satisfy half of the gourmand's dining needs each time he takes a rest.
It also means that those restuarants are for Travellers only, which means associated venues only need enough capacity to handle your travellers.


I increased the resort affiliations high enough that a gourmand can satisfy practically all his needs without leaving the resort.

"MidrealmDM70" wrote:... make sure a car rental location or taxi stand (or similar) is nearby. If they do decide to visit somewhere across town, you want to save them as much time as possible.


Done.

After completing the above, I continued to follow gourmands.

I found one at a Beachfront Hotel, with a yellow accommodation satisfaction level when he decided that he was "Tired and Hungry and was going home". There seemed to be no improvement in his accommodation satisfaction rating despite being at a hotel.

I watched another walk past two widely separated taxi stands, without recognizing that he could have saved himself a lot of walking by taking the taxi. He had a yellow entertainment satisfaction level but walked right by a sports stadium without stopping.

This raised a question in my mind. Are sims oblivious of their surroundings, ignoring their needs, when en-route to some destination. I have watched them walk great distances to reach some trivial destination while their real needs are yellow or red, walking right past venues that could have satisfied their needs.

In other cases, I have seen them go into venues appropriate to their needs but their satisfaction level did not change.

But the one that won the prize walked from one end of town, around the block, passing dining, accommodation , and entertainment venues, bus stops, taxi stands, halfway across town to a helipad. He then traveled by helicopter to another helipad, on the other side of town, then walked a long way to a cafe, turned around (without going in) and walked back toward the helipad, during which time almost all his needs were red. He then announced that he was, "tired and hungry and was going home". He then returned to the helipad and disappeared. I assume he was institutionalized when he got home.
Last edited by Norm35 on Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.

MidrealmDM70
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Postby MidrealmDM70 » Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:53 pm

Did any of the changes make an improvement at all?
What percentage of Gourmands are leaving unsatisfied?

=-=-

"Norm35" wrote:This raised a question in my mind. Are sims oblivious of their surroundings, ignoring their needs, when en-route to some destination. I have watched them walk great distances to reach some trivial destination while their real needs are yellow or red, walking right past venues that could have satisfied their needs.


Pretty much yes,
Travellers, and normal sims, on the whole, only start moving when they have already decided where to go. Once this decision is made, they will rarely change their mind. Some special sims do 'wander' (police for example) until they find a situation that needs their attention.

A Travller Sim that is moving (by foot or vehicle) has already selected a venue to visit. So a Gourmand who is walking somewhere typically won't suddenly change his mind and go somewhere else (I've seen it happen but it is very rare and usually happens because the location closes before they get to it, or gets shut down by a special sim or event).
So if a Sim starts heading to a Location on foot, it doesn't matter if he passes by taxi stands on the way, or a better location, he has already decided to go to his selected destination on foot and already decided which route to take.

When your gourmands are walking (or travelling), select them and you should see a green line on the roads indicating their intended path and where they are headed. Find their destination and bulldoze it and you will see them stop moving for a moment, then they will pick a new venue to visit and head in that direction instead.

"Norm35" wrote:In other cases, I have seen them go into venues appropriate to their needs but their satisfaction level did not change.

I believe their satisfaction level does not change until they complete their visit. Thus if something shuts down the venue, or if it closes before they are done, they get no satisfaction. I haven't researched this though.

"Norm35" wrote:But the one that won the prize walked from one end of town, around the block, passing dining, accommodation , and entertainment venues, bus stops, taxi stands, halfway across town to a helipad. He then traveled by helicopter to another helipad, on the other side of town, then walked a long way to a cafe, turned around (without going in) and walked back toward the helipad, during which time almost all his needs were red. He then announced that he was, "tired and hungry and was going home". He then returned to the helipad and disappeared. I assume he was institutionalized when he got home.


Hypothesis:
Gourmand decides to visit cafe #27
(note: he has now picked the Cafe he wants to visit, it doesn't matter if there are 100 more just like it - he wants to visit that specific cafe)
Gourmand looks at the city and decides that the best route is by hellicopter (What the game considers 'best' is a whole other issue)
Gourmand begins long trek across town.
Gourmand reaches cafe, but by this time something had changed (had cafe closed? Perhaps the day rolled over to the next day and he re-assessed his needs? I have no idea.)
Unfortunately now his needs are too low and the game decides he is fed up with this town and decides to go home.

Cheiromancer
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Postby Cheiromancer » Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:46 pm

Sounds like there needs to be an "entertainment district" with all the venues close by.


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