Lack of control and depth

Everything Hinterland that doesn't fit elsewhere
hotcod
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Postby hotcod » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:55 pm

"Kiya" wrote:Bolgo The Madd, very well said! *curtsy and kiss*

Yes you can win even if the luck of randomness is against you. And that is part of the charm of Hinterland.
You do what ever is needed with the resources you were given.


again i'm not saying that random luck should not play a part but in terms of modern game design it should be unthinkable to leave if a play can win or not completely out of there hands. In terms of hinterlands more depth and control i think would allow for the random elements beacuse you have much more of ability to deal with them. When a game in essence is playing like snakes and ladders there is something wrong.

It is the difference between playing snap and poker... both are heavily to do with the randomness of how the cards are dealt but the rules of poker allow for the player to make complex interesting choices based on that random elements rather than very simple perspective rules involved in snap which leave you with only one real choice to make and one very limited set of skills.... now ask your selfs which is these games is played more and why... and you'll have the base of my view on why hinterlands needs more complexity and control
Last edited by hotcod on Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

KnuckleHead
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Postby KnuckleHead » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:59 pm

I agree, and although I like the game, I am a bit dissapointed at how seemingly shallow the gameplay elements are...even for an indie game.

Bolgo The Madd
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Postby Bolgo The Madd » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:26 pm

"hotcod" wrote:Don't presume to put words in my mouth thank you. ... and while you think it might just be about clearing monsters the tag line is 'loot level build' and the killing of monsters is only the end goal.



My comments are directly related to your initial post.
My first post gives my personal opinion,
My second post analyzes yours.
This is a rebuttal.

I absolutely think that it's about killing monsters.
Chess is about getting the enemy king,
HinterLand is about killing all the monsters.

"Loot, Level, Build" is exactly what you do...
Looting, equipping NPCs is only important if helps you clear the board.
Leveling your Lord is only as important as it helps you clear the board.
Building your Town is only as important as it helps you clear the board.


"hotcod" wrote:You can talk about the game being about chance but if you are happy to sit rolling a dice until you hit a 6... then fine...



Plenty of people play craps...


"hotcod" wrote:... excuse me if i expect something a little more than snakes and ladders from a game that billed it's self to be a mix between rpg and town building. The aim of the game as the dev have said was advancement and giving you that proud feeling both in your character and in your town as you archive goals and upgrade them. At the moment there goal could be so much better archived then it is currently being.



You are passionately trying to reconcile your expectations with the actual game.
It is understandable to get excited about articles and develop expectations
I've read all the press leading up to the release of the game,
and HinterLand fits between the marketing margins.


"hotcod" wrote:It's an enjoyable, throw away, game as it is but how any one can go back and play it time and time again i don't understand. ... when people are being turn off playing the game again by the features put in place meant to make them want to... well you have to ask what is wrong and i think i've made a fair easement of why that is.



There is absolutely nothing wrong with your opinion.
Though If you are serious about posting comments to benefit a game,
I recommend you pay special attention to your tone.
It is more professional to analyze then to criticize.
Especially when talking about game design
I also encourage you to proof read before posting.
Last edited by Bolgo The Madd on Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:33 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Miut
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Postby Miut » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:35 pm

To be honest, the very first RPG was AD & D and you HAD to roll dice and wait fir the number you wanted to come up. You were at the mercy of the DM or GM. Every game since still depends on those RNG rolls even if we aren't aware of it, and those dictate our responses. The challenge here is to make the best of the choices you do have.

I play an MMORPG, and a city builder, and I find it relaxing to play Hinterland for a change.

Actually, using the tag line "Loot, level and Build," with Loot being first, the point of the game is to Loot and to Level, and Build a town to allow you to do that. The window you get when you open a new game explains that is your mission. Clear this wilderness.
To do that you need the food and resources from the town you will build, and you need the strength to do it. Ergo go out and kill things and loot them.

I'm sorry it hasn't met with your high expectations, but it is still a great game.

hastyhobbit
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Very Presumptuous

Postby hastyhobbit » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:51 pm

I think you are making an awful lot of generalizations about what "most people" prefer to see in a game. Comments like "how could anyone go back to a game" etc. are simply inaccurate. Not everybody needs a storyline (know anybody that is passionate about Angband? No story whatsoever....lots of people like it--I'm one of them :) ), and not everybody needs pure customization. I think part of the appeal of the game is that not everything is available to you to customize your town to your liking. In that case, your choice is to wait for the "6" (as you so much like to say) or work around the problem. You sometimes have to do the best with what you are given.

I'm sorry the game isn't meeting your expectations. The bottom line is, you can't please everyone all the time. Tilted Mill assuredly never set out to please everybody. Try not to criticize so much given that you don't like it as much as other people do. Just because they didn't please you as much as you'd hoped doesn't mean they did a bad job. I assure you their interest is in making money, and if they please enough people, they will have accomplished their goals.

I agree things could be a little more detailed, but I'm not looking for Dwarf Fortress every time out.

Azeem
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Postby Azeem » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:19 pm

Apparently, what is forgotten here is that this is a game for CASUAL(note "casual" in big letters) players and not really the hardcore. People like myself who have far too many real-life concerns and can't devote entire days to a single game.

The game as it is leaves a bit to be desired, but IMHO, it provides decent entertainment and it's acceptable for its $20 price tag.

KnuckleHead
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Postby KnuckleHead » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:22 pm

I don't see anywhere where the game is advertised as a "casual" game. In fact, here is how the TM describes their game:

Loot, level and build with fast paced RPG combat and strategic base building!

Your goal is to lead a handful of peasants to establish a small haven in the wild backcountry of a fantasy kingdom. Bring a diverse cast of followers to your settlement on the edge of the world and then carefully select members of your village to put down their ploughs, leave their comfortable homes, and take whatever weapon they may have at hand to join you on expeditions of exploration and conquest in the surrounding lands. There you’ll encounter the characters and creatures of myth and folklore, and find much needed resources to expand your village whether it be iron to make weapons or a mystic tome to entice a great mage to join you. Should your forays meet with success, fame, fortune and prosperity await. But you must take care, for even the loss of a lowly farmer can spell disaster when harvest time comes.

Can you build a vibrant settlement, lead your people to prosperity, and tame the wild Hinterland?


Features
Party-based RPG Action - A variety of characters, weapons, and strategies are at your disposal -- will you lead the charge with a devastating two-handed strike, or stand behind the herder in plate mail with your trusty bow?
Town Building - Choose which of a huge cast of characters will settle in your town and arm them for defense, or give them tools for production.
Character Development - Develop lowly farmers in to great warriors and customize your character with a variety of specializations to help adventure or improve life in your village.
Random fantasy world - Each game of Hinterland takes place in a new location for maximum replay with different resources, items and sets of enemies and challenges from orc war camps, dark elf raiding parties, goblin infested mines, ruined cities filled with undead, and more.
Customizable Gameplay - From a hardcore game to a world without raiders you make the choice about the type of game you want to play.

Hinterland is a new type of role-playing strategy game from the developers of Children of the Nile™, Caesar IV™, and SimCity Societies/


On the steam web site this is the genre it falls under:

Genre: Strategy, RPG


Interstingly enough, under the casual section on steam, hinterland is nowhere to be found...

http://store.steampowered.com/genre/Casual/

Heck...it even has a harcore mode. I don't see anything to suggest this game was made only for "casual" players with "real-life concerns" (lol).
Last edited by KnuckleHead on Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Azeem
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Postby Azeem » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:26 pm

If it was for the core gamer market, its adds would have been plastered everywhere. :rolleyes:

The relative simplicity of the game is already indicative of it being for a more casual audience.

KnuckleHead
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Postby KnuckleHead » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:27 pm

No, sorry, that just doesn't fly. It quite obvious the audience they are trying to capture from it's very own advertisments.

Sounds like excuses to me anyways...

*edit*

Just want to be clear though...I am not trying to say this is a "hardcore" game for "hardcore gamers"...but to excuse what some people believe are deficiencies/things needing improvement/depth by saying it's a casual game just seems a bit silly.

I think most people's expectations are based from indie games and the description/premise of the game provided by the developers.
Last edited by KnuckleHead on Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Kuplo
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Postby Kuplo » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:25 pm

I agree with the OP, my most frustrating times in the game (besides the lack of a zoom levels) is when my town is in need of food, but I get acolytes or some other random professional that can't come to my city anyway because I don't meet the requirements. Where the hell are the farmers and cattlemen and trappers when my town clearly needs them before all the others.

Also when I have a trappers home setup and for whatever reason he has either abandoned it or left it by dying, that profession should be a priority of newcomers coming to the town (after all there is an opening for them) and I should then be allowed to put them into the home as a replacement even if it has to revert to it's most basic form. I am already limited by the amount of slots in town (I think), so I really shouldn't have to delete the existing buildings when another of the same profession might be hopefully coming along.

Many infuriating little nigglies with this game in my opinion. Hopefully they can patch it up and make it shine.

hotcod
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Postby hotcod » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:08 pm

"Bolgo The Madd" wrote:My comments are directly related to your initial post.
My first post gives my personal opinion,
My second post analyzes yours.
This is a rebuttal.

I absolutely think that it's about killing monsters.
Chess is about getting the enemy king,
HinterLand is about killing all the monsters.

"Loot, Level, Build" is exactly what you do...
Looting, equipping NPCs is only important if helps you clear the board.
Leveling your Lord is only as important as it helps you clear the board.
Building your Town is only as important as it helps you clear the board.


No beacuse my first post contains a hell of a lot more talk about the game than just city building. You presume what i want is a city sim when i'm clearly calling for more depth across every aspect of the game

Plenty of people play craps...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craps

craps may be a simple game but you do think people would play it if there wasn't betting involved?... people will bet on any crap, i know set played a game involving 2 coins in school for money that was pure chance. Do you see craps being played on TV or talked about as a GOOD game in and of it self? no you don't.


You are passionately trying to reconcile your expectations with the actual game.
It is understandable to get excited about articles and develop expectations
I've read all the press leading up to the release of the game,
and HinterLand fits between the marketing margins.


No, i've enjoyed the game it is just not the game they talked about and it could easily easily be far better. Just beacuse you happy with the simplicity of the game dose not mean every one is thanks


There is absolutely nothing wrong with your opinion.
Though If you are serious about posting comments to benefit a game,
I recommend you pay special attention to your tone.
It is more professional to analyze then to criticize.
Especially when talking about game design
I also encourage you to proof read before posting.


My tone has been the way it is to respond to people like you, my first post is clearly point out what i think of flaws and offering what i think are fixes or ideas. This is called constructive criticism. I'm a graphic arts (design) student, something we have to do all the time is crit our own and other peoples work. So far you have sat there and told me that i'm wrong and must be stupid or am thinking something i'm not with out really dealing with the points i'm bring up. My tone snapped before beacuse you keep insisting on claiming that i'm saying things i'm not and that is something that really gets under my skin.

The reason i posted such a long first post and have kept replying to it is that i think that TM have the starts of what could be a fantastic game on there hands and i'm always willing to give detailed feedback to indy devs beacuse i know just how useful it is. I'm not expecting what i'm asking for to make it in to the game but it may start an idea or make them look at something again and improve the game in some way down the line that they want to take it.

"Miut" wrote:To be honest, the very first RPG was AD & D and you HAD to roll dice and wait fir the number you wanted to come up. You were at the mercy of the DM or GM. Every game since still depends on those RNG rolls even if we aren't aware of it, and those dictate our responses. The challenge here is to make the best of the choices you do have.


And yet they don't do that any more in rpgs... beacuse they understand now that it's a bad game play mechanic. It's like claiming that beacuse people used to think the earth is flat it's ok to claim that now... ok, i know, overblown example but its a point

I play an MMORPG, and a city builder, and I find it relaxing to play Hinterland for a change.

Actually, using the tag line "Loot, level and Build," with Loot being first, the point of the game is to Loot and to Level, and Build a town to allow you to do that. The window you get when you open a new game explains that is your mission. Clear this wilderness.
To do that you need the food and resources from the town you will build, and you need the strength to do it. Ergo go out and kill things and loot them.

I'm sorry it hasn't met with your high expectations, but it is still a great game.


I'm glad that you enjoyed it and i'm not saying it's not a fun enough game. As i've said i've enjoyed it and at the price point i've recommended it to a number of freinds who have brought it and enjoyed it as much as i have. We all for the most part have had the same misgiving about it which is why i felt they should be brought up.

"hastyhobbit" wrote:I think you are making an awful lot of generalizations about what "most people" prefer to see in a game. Comments like "how could anyone go back to a game" etc. are simply inaccurate. Not everybody needs a storyline (know anybody that is passionate about Angband? No story whatsoever....lots of people like it--I'm one of them :) ), and not everybody needs pure customization. I think part of the appeal of the game is that not everything is available to you to customize your town to your liking. In that case, your choice is to wait for the "6" (as you so much like to say) or work around the problem. You sometimes have to do the best with what you are given.


I'm making generalizations based on 3 or 4 forums i visit where there is more talk about the game than i've seen here and on a number of freinds, real life and not who i have either recommended the game to or who where looking froward to it with me. To a varying degree there has been a common thread of dissatisfaction with the game along the lines that i pointed out in my first post. This forum is in fact the only place i've come across people who have said the game is perfectly fine and grate as it is. Which means that putting such "negative" feedback as i have here is probably more important beacuse i know as a designer the lest helpful feedback you can have about anything you do is just "its grate" with out a but and some good criticisms about what you've done.

I'm sorry the game isn't meeting your expectations. The bottom line is, you can't please everyone all the time. Tilted Mill assuredly never set out to please everybody. Try not to criticize so much given that you don't like it as much as other people do. Just because they didn't please you as much as you'd hoped doesn't mean they did a bad job. I assure you their interest is in making money, and if they please enough people, they will have accomplished their goals.

I agree things could be a little more detailed, but I'm not looking for Dwarf Fortress every time out.


Again people are putting words in my mouth and taking what i know is constructive criticism as me hating on the game just beacuse they happen to like it as it is and disagree with me. Don't get me wrong you have every right to love the game and disagree with me but i'm some what fed up of this fanboish response to some one levelling criticism at the game in the hopes that it will in some way help the devs.

I hate dwarf fortress... its not for me, its interface is obtuse and the makers refusal to move to a GUI or even go mouse driven is utterly inexcusable purely in terms of game design. I was never expecting hinterlands to be that game and in fact i'd hoped it wouldn't be... what i had hoped was for some semblance of depth to any aspect which there isn't. I can understand why you could enjoy it but honestly out of all the people i've talked about the game with... the only people who haven't said it needs more depth have been in this thread.

"Azeem" wrote:Apparently, what is forgotten here is that this is a game for CASUAL(note "casual" in big letters) players and not really the hardcore. People like myself who have far too many real-life concerns and can't devote entire days to a single game.

The game as it is leaves a bit to be desired, but IMHO, it provides decent entertainment and it's acceptable for its $20 price tag.


thats part of the problem it was never ever talked about as being a casual game... as has been pointed out by another poster. If they had billed it as being a casual game if anything they've ever said about it anywhere that i've read even hinted that it was going to be a purely casual game then i wouldn't have given all the feed back i have. There is still a lot of what i would have said that i would have said anyway but until some one from TM comes out and says "this is a casual game and we never aimed at all to give it depth" i am going to stand by my constructive criticism about the lack of depth in the game as it is.

You also seem to forget this is a game with a "hardcore" setting that dose not let you exit with out saving... both not things you expect to find in casual games.

That said even if it is a casual game dose not mean it has to have depth... i wasn't just talking crap when i said i've played flash games made by one person and put on newgrounds that have more indepth town building that this game.

so

*takes deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep breath*

please please for the love of god stop presuming that i either hate the game or that i'm expect something i shouldn't have been or that by having the audacity to give criticisms as i see that i some how hate the game or want it to be something it was never going to be... that is what is getting frustrating for me as i've time and time again said that i respect your right to love the game as it is... i may not understand it but i'm not going to say you should be other wise... i've just tried to offer my views and defend them to responses in hopes that something i've said will some how help the game in some way... even if it's to make the devs think "no, the root we are taking is fine" then it's still something.

Nenjin
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Postby Nenjin » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:11 pm

Actually, using the tag line "Loot, level and Build," with Loot being first, the point of the game is to Loot and to Level, and Build a town to allow you to do that. The window you get when you open a new game explains that is your mission. Clear this wilderness.
To do that you need the food and resources from the town you will build, and you need the strength to do it. Ergo go out and kill things and loot them.


I think you nailed it. Town is there to facilitate the clearing of the wilderness. You're not building a town for your king because he wants a new town. In a way, "Hinterland 2" makes sense because after you clear the wilderness, that's when your king would ask you to "Make me a money making town prz."

Still, I don't think TM needs to make a 2nd game to make the town part more interesting. It's more about making the game flexible so people can enjoy it in multiple ways. You could blast through the wilderness and clean everything out quickly...or you could take your time and really make the best town you can make. Either of those two will eventually becomes stale and the player will quit playing...unless you make the gam of clearing the wilderness or building a town more varied and interesting.

I think the "clearing the wilderness" part of Hinterland is mostly well done. There's lots of variation for items. Enemy sites could be a little more dynamic but that's not a biggie. I think it's the town building portion that could use a little more variation to make it more satisfying.

I agree with the OP, my most frustrating times in the game (besides the lack of a zoom levels) is when my town is in need of food, but I get acolytes or some other random professional that can't come to my city anyway because I don't meet the requirements. Where the hell are the farmers and cattlemen and trappers when my town clearly needs them before all the others.


I had the exact opposite experience. Once I built an Inn, I never had to worry about getting producers into my town. If you don't like the visitors you have, you can spend a paltry 2 gold per visitor and get a new batch of recruits. Once you have cleared out all the specialized villagers, all you will get is herders, farmers, trapper, craftsmen, guards and the villagers you CANT get because of the choices you've already made.

Once you have a merchant, an innkeeper, an alchemist, a fortune teller, a bard, a shadow/dark/light priest or acolyte, these guys don't clog up your visitor list anymore. So once you've gotten those, all you will get are the essential villagers that produce stuff, and the odd villager that you can't recruit because you don't have the resource type (or will never get it because of random resources and/or building selection like temples).

At the start of the game when you're getting ALL the villagers, yeah that can be problematic, but that's why you don't grow beyond your means. You should always be creating a good food surplus before you start growing your town with non-essential villagers. It's basic economics. In a way I think people try to skip past the first part of the game, building up your resource base, and try to get to the super cool villagers and screw their resource model up. If you play the game slowly, you will find that you end up using the farmers and trappers and what not as adventurers long before you have necromancers, dragoneers, priests, wizards, guards, and all thsoe cool specialzed classe.

Azeem
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Postby Azeem » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:34 pm

You also seem to forget this is a game with a "hardcore" setting that dose not let you exit with out saving... both not things you expect to find in casual games.


*cough*VirtualVillagers*cough*

hotcod
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Postby hotcod » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:39 pm

"Azeem" wrote:*cough*VirtualVillagers*cough*


actually you're right... i withdraw that part of the point heh but the rest of what i said i feel still stands :)

"Nenjin" wrote:snip


now this is the kind of response i've been hoping for... i don't really agree with it (or have time to get in to why right now) but you make good and valid points as to why you think the current model works with out just dismissing the views or points that me and a few other have been arguing. thank you.

MrCuddlyTiger
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Postby MrCuddlyTiger » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:58 pm

I don't think there is a need to get upset or take offense here. There are some good points raised, and just because he isn't happy with the game doesn't mean he is looking for something else.

I just got my butt kicked in two games, simple because I couldn't get an herbalist and had not health pots. I found this to be quite frustrating. But then again I also chose not to have all the resources on... and to have raids on. So, it was partially my fault.

I do think that the game is quite good, especially at the price point. But I do think there is room for impovement. I'm not gonna say I agree with all of what has been suggested here, but I do think some depth wouldn't hurt the game. This feels kinda like a demo to me. Now, if that is what was intended, and TM will be releasing a lot of content patches... then great. But I still feel like I'm missing something with this game.

The combat gets repetative, and it bothers me that I can't adventure long without having to run back to town. That might be planned so that I can't just run out and forget about my town. But at the same time if I can't clear one area without going back to town I feel a little too weak in the world.

Also, I think more town management should be able to be done while paused. I tried to get my priest to change prayers right before a raiding party came in and because I couldn't do it while paused my entire party died or ran off. You need to be able to manage all of the town affairs while paused. Otherwise it sometimes becomes quite difficult later in the game when you have a good deal going on, you need to get out to capture areas, and you find that you have raiding parties always at your door. It makes the gameplay too frantic and it doesn't seem to fit to me. You could also maybe choose a speed of the game along with difficulty and length... so I could choose a long slow game with a hard difficulty... raids wouln't come as fast, nor requests from the king, but maybe I wouldn't get money as fast either. I dunno, just a random thought.



I don't think that you could disconnect the job from the peasant, or rather the building from the peasant because that would ruin the "visitor" system they have going on. But I do think that a good addition would be that once you get a hostel, or inn maybe then you can go in and spend money to advertise for a specific type of visitor... this could be balanced by the cost of advertising. It always bothers me when a watchman gets killed and only guards come to town...

Also I think you should be able to sell food at the market...maybe have to upgrade the market to something... so that it can do trade with the rest of the kingdom or something... but sometimes I just get a ton of food and don't need it.

Also I've never had any luck with the baby dragons they always die.. I must be doing something wrong there.

More depth would be good in many areas... just add to what you have. And start rethinking the engine for Hinterland 2... cuz I feel that you could realize a much greater vision... even in an indie title with a different engine.

More buldings/peasant types, more wilderness types, larger maps, larger towns, more resources (maybe), more control over party, more items....

It shows promise...

In fact... I think this should have been a 2d game. Your concept artists are great... translating those concept pieces to 2d would come across much better than in 3d... at least on a budget and usign torque.

Sorry, random thoughts.... but I hope somebody gets something out of them.

Gerblyn
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Postby Gerblyn » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:31 pm

"Nenjin" wrote:I had the exact opposite experience. Once I built an Inn, I never had to worry about getting producers into my town. If you don't like the visitors you have, you can spend a paltry 2 gold per visitor and get a new batch of recruits. Once you have cleared out all the specialized villagers, all you will get is herders, farmers, trapper, craftsmen, guards and the villagers you CANT get because of the choices you've already made.


Yeah, I just spam Advertise early on until I get 3 or 4 farms with a couple of trappers and herders. It is annoying when the game decides that all your fledgling village needs is High Priests, Necromancers and Guards though. I played once where I had to advertise about 9 times at the start before any food producers turned up, I would have starved if I hadn't chosen a Ranger class (they make enough food to feed themselves)

"Nenjin" wrote:If you play the game slowly, you will find that you end up using the farmers and trappers and what not as adventurers long before you have necromancers, dragoneers, priests, wizards, guards, and all thsoe cool specialzed classe.


This happened to me tonight as well, I ran the whole game with a craftsman and trapper/hunter I got at the beginning of the game, plus a variety of Doctors/Acolytes/herbalists (they turned out to be quite fragile :o ). I got a dragon and a necromancer later, but by the time they'd reached a decent power level there were only a few sites left and I was so tired I just rushed them all with my original crew.

With regards to the main conversation here, I do think that although the game wasn't particularly marketed for a casual audience, it's certainly more suitable for one, complexity has been sacrificed for accessibility. I personally quite enjoy it, because I get a headache from trying to balance all the complex interactions in most strategy games and this is simple enough that I can run around and enjoy myself without worrying about which of 15 research branches to choose next. Or getting annoyed because some moron settler has decided to stop carrying wood to my new buildings and it's all just piling up there.

The core ethic of the design seems to be to force the player to make do with what the Random Number Generator gives them: No Herbs? Well, you'll be relying on Acolytes and Light Priests for healing. No Steel? Then you'll have to make do with what ever equipment drops you get, since there'll be no advanced smiths for you. The lack of player control seems to come from taking this a bit too far, since the items manufactured by your villagers are random too, so you could be desperately sat waiting for a shield to go with your bright new dagger, while your craftsman turns out an endless stream of yellow hats.

I think the solution here is to add more variety to the types of resources that can be found and the types of villagers/upgrades you can get from them. Give the player more options to make use of the things that they come across and try and tweak the balance of the game so that using more specialized villager types is more necessary.

I don't think that setting up supply chains, where one villager makes materials for another villager who makes things for another, is quite the right way to go. Not because it's a bad idea, more because it would change the structure and focus of the game too much. For a sequel, a major overhaul of the town mechanics would be a good idea, but I think it's better in this case to build on the strength of the mechanics that they've got rather than trying to integrate a whole bunch of new ones.

And for God's sake, they need to make the Town's inventory bigger. The amount of fiddling around I have to do with all the items I find/produce drives me nuts.

MrCuddlyTiger wrote:I tried to get my priest to change prayers right before a raiding party came in and because I couldn't do it while paused my entire party died or ran off. You need to be able to manage all of the town affairs while paused.


I discovered tonight that you can:

1. Go into town
2. Pause
3. Click the "Followers" button
4. Click on the portrait of any of your resident villagers and you can do whatever you want with them. You can also click on the portraits of party members and visitors whilst paused and mess around with them too.

MrCuddlyTiger
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:18 pm

Postby MrCuddlyTiger » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:49 pm

oh, thank goodness!

hotcod
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:30 pm

Postby hotcod » Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:18 am

"Gerblyn" wrote:I don't think that setting up supply chains, where one villager makes materials for another villager who makes things for another, is quite the right way to go. Not because it's a bad idea, more because it would change the structure and focus of the game too much. For a sequel, a major overhaul of the town mechanics would be a good idea, but I think it's better in this case to build on the strength of the mechanics that they've got rather than trying to integrate a whole bunch of new ones.


I think my supply chain ideas have been taken with a bit more weight than i intended them to have. I was just throwing them out as a general idea as to how to give the player more choice... if you have enough different kinds of chain then you will end up, no matter how random the factors, with choices of how you want to build your town each with advantages... so instead of feeling like you are being blocked from getting what you need and having to make do the random factors in the game game are giving you a set of choices. That and the idea of making placement of building a little more interesting then it is is the only reason i suggested it.

I still think the main change i'd like to see is that most jobs are separated from most visitors. So that you can build what ever you can and then pick visitors in town to settle in that building. Even if we ignore the rpg combat/stats side of things it would be easy to include info such as likes and dislikes and what they are going to be good at or not. This way you are not just waiting on the right random people turning up and the random stuff becomes far more a choice. There, level, what there good at, what they like/dislike and there equipment all become things you have to think about and costs and so on. Randomness as choice rather than prescription. Then every so often you get a special visitor like a high priest or a necromancer in the fashion as you have now. While i know this big change is unlikely to happen i think it kind of shows how easy a bit more depth could be put in place and how the curbs the frustration that can be felt by just how random the game is.

But over all just simple little changes like being able to tell people what to make or research would be grate steps in giving the player more control. The more control you have the less annoying the randomness of the game becomes.


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