Difference between prepared food and wheat, barley, vegetable

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Pinedjem
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Difference between prepared food and wheat, barley, vegetable

Postby Pinedjem » Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:35 pm

As mentionned in the title, i ask me if there is a signifiant difference between the prepared food and the raw food delivered by the bakery. For example if a bricklayer's wife go to a bakery and find no prepared food she will take wheat or barley instead.

Does the prepared food procure an advantage in terms of efficience to feed people, or for the health, or the capacity of buying goods or something else?

If someone has an idea on the question...

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:46 pm

Howdy, Pinedjem!

First of all, we get more food from a wheat field, so I suggest you set 1/3 of your nobles on wheat, rest on all fields.

wheat ~ 60
barley ~ 40
veggies ~ 20

As for your bakery wife, no she will not get any food from the bakery, if there is no prepared ready.

Your bakery display shows prepared/raw XX/YY. If the YY is large & XX is small, then you need more bakeries. Bakeries make about 7 prepared food per game minute. If the YY is small, then you need more nobles, farmers & counting Scribes (or less random failed floods ;) ).

Supposidly a balanced diet helps with health, balanced here meaning more wheat bread (the basic food), but beer from barley bread (game makes this in home stills automatically :D ) & a bit of veggies also.
Last edited by Tinkerbell on Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Yahya
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Postby Yahya » Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:49 pm

"Tinkerbell" wrote:If the YY is small, then you need more nobles, farmers & counting Scribes (or less random failed floods ;) ).


Or, possibly less bakeries (but very unlikely, as most people don't over-build bakeries. :p )

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:34 pm

Whoops, thankx for highlighting this thread, Yahya! Rereading my previous post, I noticed a terrible typo blunder.

Just to make sure that things haven't changed since Alexandria, I just ran a New Bakery Lab. Hard Difficulty with Alexandria on a Continue Play save of E1 Nekhen in Campaign Mode.

Start ~ 9:17 AM ~ 1:02 AM ~ 5:46 PM
Bakery ~ 8/488 ~ 42/488 ~ 84/488

That works out to 6.62 & 6.76 for the intervals & 6.70 for the total time of lab.

BUT, it is minutes/bread, not the opposite that I posted wrongly.

Sooo, it takes 6.70 game minutes for a baker to make 1 bread.

This is with constant breadmaking, not interrupted by baker going shopping, etc.

Yahya
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Postby Yahya » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:27 am

Well, that was a pretty serious inversion, wasn't it? :p

Interesting information. I never knew that, or even worried about it. I am more of a macro-level city builder. :D

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:05 pm

"Yahya" wrote:Well, that was a pretty serious inversion, wasn't it? :p


Dat's a fact, Jack!

:D

Starcomet
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Postby Starcomet » Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:56 pm

I notice the wives only get bread and barly and rarely vegetables from a bakery even if they are prepared. Having most of your nobles farm vegetables is a great idea since it is the mostly costly and least productive of all of the crops and it is important to your people's health.

Yahya
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Postby Yahya » Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:56 pm

Setting nobles to farm one type of food doesn't affect everything.

When you set a noble to farm some particular food, that food is grown only for taxes. I think the ratio is half his fields for tax purposes, and the scribes count everything and determine what percentage you get as pharaoh.

So if you set all your nobles to grow vegetables, that will decrease the yield from your taxable fields, and therefore decrease your tax income. That can really cripple your city.

A wheat field yields 60 food per harvest, while barley yields 40 and vegetables only 20. So by setting all your nobles to grow vegetables, it will decrease your tax revenue by as much as 67%. That can make a vast difference in food yield per harvest.

As a result, we all set nobles to grow wheat for taxes. But if we set them all to do that, it decreases the amount of vegetables available in the city, and can generate health problems, I believe. Therefore, I use a thumbrule of about 1/3 of my nobles on wheat, and the rest on all foods. That's why I like multiples of 3 for my nobles, 9, or 12 at the end of a city. Maybe 15. Makes the math easier.

The food not grown for taxes is left in the threshing area and distributed to the populace. The food for taxes is distributed according to Pharaoh's share, which is dependent on the number of fields counted. That food is put into bakeries and turned into bread. No one picks any food but bread up from the baker, including the baker's wife. If there is no prepared bread at the bakery, no one can pick up any food, even if the food on hand is 499.

And that food can be wheat, barley, onions, or lettuce. It all gets made into bread. Interesting flavor, I suppose. :D

If there is too much food for the available space in bakeries, overflow is put into granaries. If there is insufficient room in the granaries, it is left in the threshing area, where it will spoil over time.

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:16 pm

Agreed, Yahya. Extra veggies doesn't help health at all, it just reduces the harvest drastically. The game uses very little veggies, cuz it is not the main food. Wheat is & this is why we get 60 per field..

~ ~ ~

By the way, no matter what we set Nobles on, it only changes 1/2 of the farmers. The other half are still doing all crops.

Yahya
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Postby Yahya » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:22 pm

Yeah, I was trying to say that. That was why I was saying that changing them to veggies wouldn't matter, really. It would only kill the tax revenue.

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:26 pm

I once did a Veggie Lab to try to make the health alerts go away. Didn't happen.

Two conclusions

1) Health alerts are basically random events to make sure we have proper health services for people to goto. When we get one, everyone runs to hospital/apothecary & each only can handle so many people. This is basically the same thing as gods alerts.

2) I almost got overthrown from NO FOOD

It wuz ugly

:D

Starcomet
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Postby Starcomet » Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:28 am

I have two nobles working on veggies and my harvest are still pretty big. Maybe if one noble is doing only wheat and the rest veggies than sure.

Starcomet
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Postby Starcomet » Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:29 am

"Tinkerbell" wrote:I once did a Veggie Lab to try to make the health alerts go away. Didn't happen.

Two conclusions

1) Health alerts are basically random events to make sure we have proper health services for people to goto. When we get one, everyone runs to hospital/apothecary & each only can handle so many people. This is basically the same thing as gods alerts.

2) I almost got overthrown from NO FOOD

It wuz ugly

:D


Of course, veggies are the least productive and expensive crop.

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:04 am

Expensive, Starcomet?

As far as food as money goes, all crops are equal.

Starcomet
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Postby Starcomet » Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:08 am

Expensive in that it cost the most to grow for nobles. It states in game that the reason why vegetables yield the least is because it is the most difficult to grow and thus cost the most time and upkeep for nobles and farmers. Wheat is the easiest to grow and barely is inbetween which is why they are the easiest to maintain and thus why more are harvested.

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:11 am

Time & upkeep for each field is exactly the same.

Starcomet
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Postby Starcomet » Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:16 am

For game purposes yes since everything needs to be harvested on time. But vegetables require more than wheat and barely. Wheat and Barely are the easiest to grow and get for nobles. But vegetables are more difficult and harder to grow for nobles. Considering the climate of egypt it is no wonder why vegetables may have a harder time than wheat and barely. This is the reason why vegetables yields the least amount of the crops. It is the same with fruits as well. Having a fruit grove requires lots of maitenece and upkeep that only nobles can provide for their homes. All of this is explain in game.

rj66
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Postby rj66 » Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:25 pm

"Tinkerbell" wrote:I once did a Veggie Lab to try to make the health alerts go away. Didn't happen.

Two conclusions

1) Health alerts are basically random events to make sure we have proper health services for people to goto. When we get one, everyone runs to hospital/apothecary & each only can handle so many people. This is basically the same thing as gods alerts.

2) I almost got overthrown from NO FOOD

It wuz ugly

:D


I was curious about this 'wheat vs veggies' thing myself after reading through some of the early years of CotN forums. My approach differed in that I decided to record the number of people visiting the medical facilities. In hind sight, I will have to redo the testing sometime to include health alert frequency/type and not average the results as much.
Anyway here where my results from the testing situation of 4 Noble(all) city developed over 5 years, changing the noble settings and allowed food reserves to stabilize for 5 years, then recording the medical facility numbers over 5 years. Ran the final 5 year tests twice because some years seemed to vary more then expected. Perhaps the result of health alerts. % is in comparison to nobles growing default all averages.

- 12%~5% :all veggie nobles
- 7%~4% :2 veggie nobles
+ 7%~16% :2 wheat nobles
+ 28%~40% wheat nobles

Has anyone done a similar or more in depth study?
For my part I am comfortable with the default 'all' and might change half the nobles to 'wheat' if the flood prediction calls for a failed flood or particularly bad fertility.

'Random' I understand, in computer/programing terms, uses a randomize function requiring the program to set the conditional possibility range. Thus the question would be is the health alert a 'constant' or influenced by variables such as 'mean' health of the citizens or other factors? How much does individual diet and age play in an individuals chance to be effected by a health alert disaster?
Additionally, what is the health benefit of a citizen eating say 1/16th of a veggie/barley verses say 1/4th veggie/barley. Since the fractions of the 'binary real number' amount of food are never displayed; this possibly may never get answered.

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:40 pm

Howdy, rj66!

I'm not saying that veggies have no effect. What I am saying is that there is a tradeoff. Health vs harvest vs happiness. In many scenarios, we need tons of food to feed hundreds of soldiers & also food use by the world map sites. Then, there are scenarios where villagers are limited & we cannot have as many nobles/farmers as we would like.

Next, if you are just counting how many people visit heatlh facilities, then you are not getting a good measure of demand, since each building has a capacity limit. You can use the Shift key to see who is trying to goto health (white lines on map). Then there are those who don't even try cuz the game knows the heath sites are full or the people are doing something else.

You would also need to check for red alerts on Admin Report for overall city happiness & alerts on home buildings, and whith those there is a delay in game updating. People get upset later, not instantly.

When push comes to shove on many scenarios, more food is always better. 1/3 Nobles on wheat means that 1/6 of all farmers are on wheat only, with 5/6 on all crops (changing nobels only changes 1/2 of famers for that Noble). Then added to the mix, we have palace farmers that cannot be changed from all crops. In extreme scenarios I will go upto 1/2 nobles on wheat (3/4 of all farmers still on all crops).

The Bliss of COTN is that is is not exactly spreadsheetable. The game mechanics are intertwined & the game WILL change its behaviour under different circumstances, even shockingly so. This change is mainly due to what we call various tipping points. Caesar IV is entirely spreadsheetable, COTN is not.
Last edited by Tinkerbell on Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:59 pm, edited 6 times in total.

rj66
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Postby rj66 » Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:07 pm

The Bliss of COTN is that is is not exactly spreadsheetable. The game mechanics are intertwined & the game WILL change its behaviour under different circumstances, even shockingly so. This change is mainly due to what we call various tipping points. Caesar IV is entirely spreadsheetable, COTN is not.


I have not played Ceasar IV and wouldn't see the point in comparing this data structure to the older 2D games. I am thinking more in the lines of statistical math relationships and observational data to develop rational assumptions; than charting out the optimal conditions and calling it spread-sheeting.

I have already shaped some opinions about optimal common shopkeeper conditions(number ranges) which include minimal survivability(12-15 customers based on feeding a full household), comfortable(food accumulates with many/adequate reserve; 15-20 customers), fat and happy(excessive food but reserves low; 20-25 customers), overworked (25-30 customers but reserves are exhausted daily which causes customer anxiety), overwhelmed (over 30 customers or just too far from resources). Obviously, resource proximity plays a limiting factor in satisfying the customer base. When examined from a statistical point of view, reliable number ranges can still be obtained with conditional limiting factors.

Back on subject to the health issue, health alerts and crops. Jeff, someone from Tilted Mill explained the importance of barley, but much of the argument was historical in nature and not so much of how the game weighs barley's importance. Only have played this game a month, I can make the assumption that barley production or consumption plays a roll in the possibility of a gum disease health alert.
1. Barley bread availability in the home is checked periodically which may influence the chance of this type of alert.
[INDENT]a. If checked during the activities period of the day/night cycle then some homes may not get accurately polled since someone may be shopping with all the homes barley.
[/INDENT]
2. Individuals are polled to determine if they have recently consumed barley.
3. city stores of barley are checked against population to determine variation of gum disease health alert.
etc

It isn't a spreadsheet that is needed; but rather, developing a consensus of opinions to best describe how things work within the game without resorting to the minimalistic statement of 'this isn't a numbers game'. It is a program, thus numbers and their relationships are very much a part of the game.

PS: Thanks for the tip about the 'shift' key. The interface system is something that only time and experimentation can make more useful. I played for about a week before I discovered that the 'v' key will change the appearance/openness facing of buildings. Still haven't seen it mentioned in the manual or forum reading yet.
Last edited by rj66 on Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.


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