Achieving Elite Characters.

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Rains on Parades
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:29 pm

Achieving Elite Characters.

Postby Rains on Parades » Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:26 pm

I've heard a number of people complain that some of the more elite characters(Dragon tamers, necro's) are useless by the time you get them, because by that time in the game cycle you are down to mopping up with superior equipped and leveled normal characters.

While I think that this can often be true I think you can definitely acquire these characters in a timely manner. I just played a game with an outlaw as the main and my goal for this game was for him to play meat-shield and then be backed up by all casters.

I wanted my party to consist of

Outlaw(melee)
Healer
Nuker
Necro

To this end I got an acolyte and herbalist as soon as I could. This meant scouting around the map a bit in search of herbs(I had show resources turned off). I also needed to get my Graveyard for my souls that I would need for the Necro. I scouted around a bit until I found that. I then conquered both as soon as possible.

I was lucky and found a crystal ball early in the game and so my initial party was.

Outlaw
Acolyte
Fortune Teller

That was until I got my Herbalist at which point I traded in my Acolyte and went.

Outlaw
Herbalist
Fortune Teller

Once I got the resources I upgraded both the Acolyte and Herbalist. So that my new party was

Outlaw
Doctor
Fortun Teller
Dark Priest

And this is what I ran with for awhile. At this point it was just a waiting game till I got the Fame to buy my Necro. That happend and my final adventuring party was

Outlaw
Doctor
Fortune Teller
Necro

I succeeded in achieving this party about mid-game. It should also be noted that I had also gotten a dragon egg as a reward from the King and I also had Dragons at mid game; so I could have went that direction as well. And while several things did turn out to my favor, there was also planning involved to achieve a specific result of my caster party. I would have tried for wizard as well, but I never got a Tome.

Another thing to take into consideration is that dragons and necro's are very powerful. At that point in my game I was level 6 and in short order my necro had 3 level 8 skeletons running around with us. Just the same my dragon tamers(I actually ended up with two by end game) had a lvl 10 dragon, and a level 27 dragon. If I had wanted to go dragons I would have made sure to take a herder in my party at the beginning so that when I got an egg I would have a nice beefy herder in charge of my dragon.

I guess in summation I would have to say that with a bit of planning and a bit of luck you can achieve those elite characters, and that I don't think they should be available early in the game because of how powerful they are.

Sure it won't work out every time. But then that is the charm of a randomized game.

CannibalBob
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:51 pm

Postby CannibalBob » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:09 pm

Yeah it really is random, sometimes you'll get a tomb or whatnot early on. What this game really needs is a way to minimize the randomness, maybe make it so you can buy stuff in the market.

Rains on Parades
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:29 pm

Postby Rains on Parades » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:16 pm

I don't think that's really necessary. I mean if your goal is to set out making a certain thing. Then yah you might get disappointed. You might not get that dragon egg or crystal ball or find the Graveyard. But if you plan a bit and know the best way to get there you can increase your odds a bit.

Also if you really need a certain resource then you can play with region showing so you know exactly how to get there. I think if you play with region hidden or not all resources then you do it with the understanding that you are going to play with the hand you are dealt.

I would personally like to see Gravediggers be able to be leveled up to Necro's. And Tomes and crystal balls drop a bit more(I think I've only gotten one tome in all my games). But I like the randomness of the game.

ESatire
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Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:31 am

Postby ESatire » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:46 am

The point is that even if you do get the dragon, the wizard, the high priest, or the necromancer - you don't need them.

You're just as good adventuring with that farmer that you picked on day one (Assuming he didn't run into a tree and got himself killed).

I'm not even mentioning the bard, who must have made it into the game because his father is a good friend of the king.

Rains on Parades
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Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:29 pm

Postby Rains on Parades » Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:02 pm

Well you don't need anyone in an adventuring party. I've done all healers, all casters, archers, melee, solo. You don't need to run with any kind of character. But different group make-ups create different play experiences.

I just recently put a bard in my group. I'm sure he would melee or be an archer or whatever you gave him. But I gave him a staff, and he was shooting white bolts which up to this point I had only seen enemy mobs shoot. I didn't want a nuker at that time so I didn't explore that. I might next time it comes up.

I do agree though that certain characters could be a bit more useful or have a bit more depth added to their game.


*EDIT*
Also I guess I didn't make it clear enough. Part of the planning is to use those characters that could eventually become the epic characters so that when you get to switch to them, you are still using the characters that you spent all that time leveling with. For instance if you want to try to make a dragon game, start early with a Herder, so that should you get a dragon egg later you are still rolling with that herder you leveled up into a mean fighting machine, except now he is also bringing a dragon with him. Same could be done with an Herbalist if you are shooting for a Wizard.

That is why above even though I had a healer in the Acolyte I switched him out as soon as I could for the Herbalist because I knew I was going to be running him as a Doctor later.
Last edited by Rains on Parades on Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ESatire
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:31 am

Postby ESatire » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:10 pm

That's all fine and good, rains. I'm not contesting what your saying, because you're right.
I was just talking about improving the existing game. It isn't terribly bad with every support character being more or less the same.
But when you add something to a game, it helps if there's a point to it, no?

It really improves the gameplay when there's something to wait for. When you haven't seen it all in the first 10-15 minutes; When getting that special follower that requires you cleansing over half the map actually means something.
"Ah ha! Now I'm gonna get a wizard, Take that!" Is completely different from "Oh, now I can get a wizard." which is usually followed by "Although the herbalist is just fine."

You might know the feeling, if you ever got to play an RTS, where some special power you acquired, or a super unit you've been working on, has just turned the tide in your favor.

Heck, I get excited in Hinterland when I find some dragon armor, or a dwarven sword. Why not from an expensive follower?

So, to sum it all up, all I want (Or at least wanted) is to see this game realize its potential.

Damaggott
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:55 am

Postby Damaggott » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:51 am

I'm in the same boat. I think the necro should be worth the 300 fame and 300 gold he costs. As it is, he loses in a duel to my 15-gold farmer--who agreed to duel naked against the Necromancer with all his gear and all of his undead followers. In the amount of time it takes to let a necro or a dragon tamer level their respective pets long enough to live more than two seconds, you could have cleared the rest of the map.

The problem, ultimately, is that they are equal in power to their owner or a monster of equivalent level--whichever is less. And picking up a high level wizard or necro is ridiculously expensive, considering how fragile they are. My best luck with Necros is to put them in farmer gear and play them as melee, ignoring their minions completely (which die in two seconds).

My suggestion would be to give a secondary spell or ability to the professions that are sucking it up right now that make them competetive with higher level characters--i.e. if you've got both a farmer and a wizard, you're an IDIOT not to take the wizard unless you really want those amulets of power.

Examples:
Wizard: Arcane Shield (Casts it on himself first, then everyone else. Absorbs 10 + level x 3 HP)
Necromancer: Blood Aura (All characters drain a small amount of HP when attacking enemies; undead drain twice as much, and the Necro drains 100% of the damage he inflicts)
Dragon: WHY IS THIS THING KILLABLE!? Once you have a level 25 dragon, the game should be over.

Solice
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Postby Solice » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:37 am

"CannibalBob" wrote:Yeah it really is random, sometimes you'll get a tomb or whatnot early on. What this game really needs is a way to minimize the randomness, maybe make it so you can buy stuff in the market.


You have a point, but I disagree. I think part of the challenge is that you dont always get the items you want, but you have to find a way to win anyway.

At the same time, ive suggested letting players choose what there craftsman make instead of it being random, which is kind of the same thing. Id like to hear feedback on what other people think about whether or not it would unbalance the game.

Xarne
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:51 pm

Postby Xarne » Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:20 pm

I would *love* a build queue for my crafters
Even when Im purposely trying to make a game last I have to agree with the consensus that, ya, once you get your 'elite' chars: you dont need em. All your grunt/basic characters have already hit level 6-8 and are well geared.
There's just not enough mobs left on the map for your elite chars to shine once their pets have reached a combat-ready level.

Im hoping that with the expac they make the map bigger or maybe allow for subregions like going into an underground crypt or raiding a bandit hideout after the initial area is cleared.

Solice
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Postby Solice » Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:45 am

Also I think when your character reaches a certain level (say 8 or 9) Raiders should Automatically be 1 level higher that you. With the right items you could still beat them, and it would make elite characters more useful. At least on defense.

But then we also need a way to level townspeople, which I think should happen automatically over time as they do their jobs.

soldyne
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Location: Right Behind You!

Postby soldyne » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:09 pm

I have never used a wizard before in any of my games. I have only ever found a tome once and I accidentally sold it soon after because I mistook it for a medical treatise...d'oh!

but as far as dragons and necros go, I have had plenty of games where I had lots of time to get high level dragons and skels for a good portion of the game. I only used a High Priest once and I was not impressed. I am also not too impressed with the healing abilities of the acolytes, they are better served as evil priests casting God of Assassins than healing me in combat. although, I guess healing does reduce down time.

GenghisKim
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Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:34 pm

Postby GenghisKim » Fri Dec 25, 2009 6:34 pm

"soldyne" wrote:I have never used a wizard before in any of my games. I have only ever found a tome once and I accidentally sold it soon after because I mistook it for a medical treatise...d'oh!

but as far as dragons and necros go, I have had plenty of games where I had lots of time to get high level dragons and skels for a good portion of the game. I only used a High Priest once and I was not impressed. I am also not too impressed with the healing abilities of the acolytes, they are better served as evil priests casting God of Assassins than healing me in combat. although, I guess healing does reduce down time.


Yup. I don't see what the use for a High Priest is. Is there anyone who does?

Handel
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Postby Handel » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:47 am

A newbie question...
Why the fortune teller is so good?

Dylmani555
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Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:35 pm

Postby Dylmani555 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:00 pm

I beg to differ, Necros and dragoneers can be VERY useful!

I completed my first ever game, using my hero, a goblin thief, with sword shield armour and amulet, a watchwoman with magic robe (High attack), amulet and 2 handed axe, A dragon tamer with helmet, armour and bow and a necro with 3 level 15 skeletons and equipped with a magic staff, armour and helmet.

The trick is with necros:
1) Get an acolyte
2) Upgrade to evil temple
3) Get Necro
4) Fire Dark preist
5) Demolish Evil temple
6) Get another Acolyte
7) Upgrade to Good temple
8) Equip Necro with lamp (Faster research) and set to researching
9) Get Good priest praying to God of mind (even Faster research)
10) After a few necro researches, equip necro with dark relic (Faster summoning) and change him to summoning.
11) I ended up with 3 skeletons, each with 30+ attack and defence!

NOTE: Each research done by the necro increases undead minions summoned AFTER research level by 1

NOTE: Skeletons have less attack and are faster and zombies have less defence but are slower.


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