Gettin' trades

Feedback, questions and general discussion regarding Nile Online
Old Git
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Gettin' trades

Postby Old Git » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:48 pm

I seem to be having trouble finding regular trades. I have 4 strikes against me it seems after reading here.

1 ) I'm a small player who has goods that no one wants or in insufficient quantities to warrant trades with established players.
2 ) Those that are my size that would trade don't want the things I tend to have in excess (bread, bricks, pots or baskets).
3 ) I signed up for Sabah as to my thinking, beta meant getting to see new stuff first. So it's a community of players who seem to more or less know each other and trade mainly with those familiar faces.
4 ) This game seems to going nowhere fast as the support for the game doesn't seem very robust or at least to my view at the moment.


So, I am finding myself spending large amounts of time doing mostly nothing. I am NOT saying that I haven't gotten ANY trades. So let's be clear about that. I have gotten a few trades and it has let me move forward, but it's really a snails pace.

As I don't want this thread to be just a complaint, I am wondering if I have missed something. I can't live on the computer as I have other things to do, so the trade wall doesn't work well as my posts eventually fall off and aren't viewed by perhaps the person who is just waiting to trade with me. So in my 30 minutes of play time a day that is spread across a number of hours, I find less and less reason to come back on except that I just hate to quit.

Anyway, thanks for listening and I look forward to hearing of any ideas that might be helpful.
Older than dirt...

abana
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Postby abana » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:57 pm

I would be happy to trade with you, where are you, and what is your resource?

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:39 pm

Howdy, Old Git!

Don't let the listed number of players that Sabah shows us to lead you astray. It is a huge lie due to the dead accounts not being swept away from Sabah like they are in Theoris. We just don't have that many real players in Sabah. I would guess 500 max & most players on both servers do not use the trade wall.

As for trading on the wall, patience & continued spamming is the solution. We definitely will trade in small amounts, at least most of us.

Best advice is to don't be shy, be bold!

You have another option also which is to scroll for trades. Goto your nome map & pay attention to the dots next to cities & make sure they are active recently. Then scroll them.

Sabah is more of a challenege than Theoris due to the difference in number of players, but we love it to.

Now, about your "bread, bricks, pots or baskets". Many players do not want what we make ourselves (Theoris with tons of players, yes. Sabah not near as much.). We want your raw luxmats & finished lux goods. What we don't make ourselves. Make em & offer those instead.

Good Luck! :)
Last edited by Tinkerbell on Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Malkata
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Postby Malkata » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:35 pm

All very true. At some stages the bricks, pots and baskets are useful for people upgrading certain buildings but mostly people want materials of finished goods that the don't produce.
I may be looking for bigger trades now but will always trade small quantities if I see a request. Also now I am full of all lux goods the only things I can trade are bricks, pots, baskets and raw mats.

Old Git
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Postby Old Git » Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:02 pm

Thanks to all for the replies. :) There were some goods ones, but I wanted to address this particular one as it seems to cover the whole gamut of answers.
"Tinkerbell" wrote:Howdy, Old Git!
EDITED: As for trading on the wall, patience & continued spamming is the solution. We definitely will trade in small amounts, at least most of us.

Best advice is to don't be shy, be bold!

You have another option also which is to scroll for trades. Goto your nome map & pay attention to the dots next to cities & make sure they are active recently. Then scroll them.

We want your raw luxmats & finished lux goods. What we don't make ourselves. Make em & offer those instead.



I find some of your statements to be fairly simple especially in terms of some of the complexities of the game. Please, no offense meant, but there are some realities that they really don't address. Or at least in my experience they don't. I'll explain.

The simple answer of being bold on the trade wall is not really a solution. I have posted trades there before, with multiple entries. Again, if I am not online for very long, my multiple entries all fall off and new people coming to the wall never see it. So that already makes my usage of the trade wall of limited benefit. I have gotten trades in there and I do believe that you gave me 26 cedar to get my first ship. So for that, I thank you.

Now added to the fact that my entries are not there for very long, the goods I have in excess aren't really tradable. The simple answer is to produce my unique resource, oil, and trade that or the finished good, perfume, instead. The problems with that are multiple. I'll explain.


  1. My ability to create oil is limited due to the fact that I have to trade for goods so that I can have enough workers to create enough oil to trade for the finished goods I need to upgrade my palace. So in effect, I have to have your goods to create enough of my goods to get your goods in the first place.
  2. Trading oil with a henna player is possible and I have gotten some trades that way, but then I have to create the perfume. So, not only do I create oil at a lower rate, but I am creating perfume at a snails pace. Then there is the further problem of...
  3. The one finished good I have to trade is one I may need to upgrade the palace (the real reason to trade goods in the game). So now I find myself trading 3 times to get the palace upgrade. I trade to get the henna to make perfume. I spend lots of time making enough perfume to trade for other goods (5 perfume an hour is really slow when you need to trade for over 200 other finished goods). I then trade the perfume away and get the other goods that I need and then trade again for more henna so I can make more perfume as I need it to upgrade my palace. I imagine this trading cycle could be even worse for those with emeralds or gold as they need jewelry just as much as anyone.


So from number 3 alone, I am sitting with a huge time sink on my hands. If you can only play for minutes each day, your ability to progress in this game is pretty slow.

I have done the direct trade thing as well. I've even gone so far as to start a trading group of smaller players and connected everyone so all can trade with each other. So I have been busy in this area. Again, sometimes the ability to trade is still too limited either due to my ability to have a desired good or my partners ability to have the good or even sometimes that my partner isn't really all that interested in my goods. I've done the whole trade with 3 people to get something that my partner wants. It's fun, but I wouldn't want to have to do it every day.



All of this could have been handled better if a better system of upgrades had been devised. Bear with me on this. For say the first 7 to 10 levels of the palace, if all I needed to upgrade it was raw lux materials then a player could upgrade faster which is the only way of getting enough of a worker base to produce goods enough so you can actually trade. Instead of finished goods, you needed ever increasing amounts of raw lux materials until you reached a point where the raw materials were replaced by finished goods. So in that level, no more gold or emeralds was needed, but jewelry instead.

Now some are saying, "But we only have to trade so little of finished goods to upgrade now. Why would I want to have to trade for possibly thousands of luxury materials to upgrade when I could have only hundreds of finished goods instead?" I'll answer you. Ease of trade and trading ratios are the answers.

Ease of trade: I can always trade 1:1 my oil for someone's henna, gold, bronze, etc. most days of the week. My only stopping point is how much oil I have to trade. Also bear in mind that oil is now a more desirous commodity as ALL the smaller players will need it to upgrade their palaces as well. So trading becomes more robust for smaller players. Also the smaller player won't have to have any luxury shops to keep progressing. (Building and tearing down shop after shop has been a pain, but when you only have 1 building spot left, what can you do?) This way they focus on basic production and the advanced production becomes part of the middle to late game.

So each day, I can find at least one player who will trade his raw lux materials for mine and I can probably do that without the trade wall AND in less than 1 hour a day. Two very key ingredients to keeping a game afloat these days. For a small player, being able to do something positive in your growth is very important to keeping that player in the game. Even if that work isn't much of a stride, at least you can say you did something.

Trading ratios: Because my raw goods don't translate into 1:1 with finished goods (not implying that they should just pointing out facts), the reality is I am already trading hundreds of raw lux mats for those few finished goods. Usually at a 3:1 minimum price. So the net difference is not all that large especially in light of all the benefits you get with the above method.


Anyway, to put it back into the current reality, ;) I appreciate all the comments and suggestions. My experience with the game is not as stellar as others it seems. I suppose that I am not doing too badly, but I am seeing that the time sink is going to be an ongoing issue. Anyway, I was just wanting to ensure that there wasn't something that I had overlooked that I could be doing.

Thanks again. And thanks to those who in game have helped out in various ways.
Older than dirt...

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:16 pm

The trade wall is designed for real time trading, not a post & leave thingie. Post & leave trading is better done via scrolls. Lots of scrolls.

The game is not one where you can progress quickly, it is not designed for that (even though many of us do play it this way).

The start game is tough, especially for a New Player & 24 hour trades that are the normal in Sabah with so few players.

Trust me, it does get easier as your empire grows & you become more experienced. Upgrade, upgrade, upgrade. Build tons of boats!

If you don't like to make raw luxmats & lux to trade, then sorry, but that is just too bad. This is the game we got & you will have to adjust your gameplay.

If you are in the Wilderness, away from the Center of the Nile where most of the traders are (and especially better markets), as soon as possible take a 2nd city & place that 2nd city closer to the Center of the Nile.

I can lead a horse to water, but I cannot make it drink. Sorry. ;)

Good Luck! :)

PS ~ You might have better luck with your gameplay style in Theoris, Old Git. Lots more players there. I'm trying to get TM to turn back on Sabah weekly server sweeps like in Theoris. Sabah has a HUGE problem for New Players, due to all the dead accounts we have here. No such problem in Theoris.
Last edited by Tinkerbell on Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Old Git
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Postby Old Git » Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:26 pm

hehe Thanks for the "life's tough all over so get over it" speech. :D I'm truly inspired now. ;)


I get that I will have to make lux mats and goods. I just wanted to find out if my experiences were true with most players. Yes, all the dead accounts pushes new players farther and farther away from the better markets. My market attests to this fact. It's small (level 11), but I am upgrading it as I can.

Many of the direct trades I have had are usually 24 hrs in travel time. I was mainly attempting to refer to it taking 24 hours to just make enough to trade then it taking 24 hours to find someone who wants to trade then it taking 24 hours to get the goods. When you get to play for such a limited time, it only stretches out these time periods. As this seems to be a Sabah thing, I'll have to consider this carefully.


Tinkerbell wrote:If you don't like to make raw luxmats & lux to trade, then sorry, but that is just too bad. This is the game we got & you will have to adjust your gameplay.


Gee, you're not abrasive or anything. Sorry. Just having a bit of fun. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
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outfctrl
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Postby outfctrl » Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:57 pm

I would like to throw my 2 cents worth in. I am a new player and have traded numerous times of 100 here and 100 there.

What I find interesting, is trying to determine what to upgrade and when. Personally, I dont care how long it takes to trade something. I just concentrate on other things while waiting. Eventually it will get here.

What blows me away is the trading in 5 digit numbers. LOL I will get there one day. Also, you will find older players to be very generous, but there is a draw back. You cant produce anything till you can upgrade your warehouse to handle the gifts.

So, I concentrate upgrading everything I can. Just takes alooonnggg time...LOL
I love this game.

Old Git
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Postby Old Git » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:01 pm

hehe Sounds rough!
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Farmer
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Postby Farmer » Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:50 pm

If you are making baskets pottery and bricks faster than you are getting the lux good you need to upgrade your palace upgrade your oil patch and your perfume factory and move labor from bricks pots and baskets to oil and perfume. Oil and perfume are in more demand on the market and get a better trade rate for the labor required to make them getting a better rate of return than bricks, baskets or pottery get.

If my memory is correct 1 henna = 1 hour laber, 1 basket or pot = 1.4 hours labor and 1 brick= 1.1 hour labor a most of the time brick, pot and baskets trade for the same or less than henna.

balthazarr
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A few trading suggestion

Postby balthazarr » Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:43 pm

When you do have time to log in, read the entire Trade Scribe Wall to see who is offering what you do need, or is asking for something you can supply. Then click on their name and see what cities they have. If you think that a trade is doable, scroll them, referencing that you saw their post on the trade wall. If you are lucky, you might even catch a post that is the exact match of what you have and they need. The trade wall is slow at times and the poster may have asked many hours before for a trade and never completed it. Additionally, there are the "Scroll Me" trade requests that can be buried further down, having scrolled off. Also check the general wall, people do leave trade requests there.

Try to set up a daily trade to finish a luxury good pairing that you have half of. Not knowing what your in game name is and not finding an "Old Git" on the Sabah server it is hard to give specific advice, but I will give an example... If you have kohl, try to find a person who has henna and try to set up a 100 1 for 1 trade that is done on a daily basis, and make cosmetics. My longest running daily trade partner started at 100 per day and grew to 5200 per day slowly over time as my cities and the cities of my trading partner both grew. At one point, I had daily trades will nearly a dozen players totaling over 20K of materials. The main advantage to daily trades is that you do not have to constantly seek materials and traders who are online at the same time as you. Also the steady flow of resources makes resource and worker allocation a bit easier.

Most players have no problem doing small trades. They may be looking for 40K of leather, but if you have 100, yes 0.1K, they will probably trade for your 100, while still looking for the other 39.9K they are looking for.

Unfortunately there are several items that usually do not trade well...
Bricks, Baskets & Pottery (and their raws of Reeds and Clay), everyone produces these and as you get further into the game many people tend to be over stocked with them, so much so that you will see high level players trading them as a loss for raw luxury materials and finished luxury goods, that they need. This situation can actually be used to your advantage, allowing you to "buy" cheap bricks, baskets and pottery.
Limestone, it has limited uses and is also overstocked by many. You will not need limestone until you are trying to build a level 12 palace, a pyramid or a sphinx.

Some other advice...
In most cases it is logistically easier to do 1 to 1 trades, as in 1 raw lux material for 1 raw lux material and 1 finished lux good for 1 finished lux good. (this will make more sense after the next few comments).
At the start of the game, and most of us have done it, we tend to import raw lux materials, build a level 1 lux shop and locally make the finished lux good we need for the next palace upgrade, and then tear it down for the next finished lux good we need to make. This works ok for the first few palace upgrades, but pretty soon time wasted and the slow production rate you get with this method will get out stripped by the demand you have for finished lux goods you need. You are much better served by sticking with the lux good you can make and trading for the lux goods that you need.
Early on in the game, I found that having twice as many workers working at my raw lux resource as compared to my finished lux goods shop worked out very well. Referring back to the kohl/henna pairing above... A level 2 kohl mine with 9 workers produces 216 kohl a day, a level 1 cosmetics shop with 4 workers can make 96 cosmetics a day. If you set up a daily trade with some one with henna, for 100 per day, it balances out very well. At the end of each day, you have produced 96 cosmetics, and have a surplus of 20 kohl (that can be used to trade for other raws you do not need on a daily basis) and 4 henna (which will be used eventually to upgrade your Pottery and Basket Shops.
Most older players will also be willing to make odd trades like 68 sandals, that you will need for your level 5 palace. They understand that you have limited supplies and that you do not need extra sandals hanging around until you build your level 9 palace.

Just remember, "rome was not built in a day" and neither were any of our little empires on the nile. We all started with one city and had to bootstrap our way through the difficult early stages.

BTW, Farmers advice from another thread is very good advice...
"Farmer" wrote:For what good to choose in four cities I like to have one in the henna/kohl/oil group as they are used for building upgrades.. One in the emeralds/gold group for palace upgrades. One in the military goods bronze, leather, cedar group.
the fourth would be what was in short supply when I went for my fourth.


The better you develop trading partners and daily trades now, the less time later will be needed to manage your trades and you will spend less time trying to find people to trade with.

Part of what Farmer is saying is that in the short term, having an easy pair of cities like choosing Henna as you second city if your first is kohl, might seem to make things easier, but you will also be isolating yourself and will be forcing yourself to make even more trades in the future.

I hope my rambling made sense and is helpful. Best of luck.

tutmoses ii
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Postby tutmoses ii » Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:50 pm

Some more hints: I have a level 9 town and a level 10 emeralds deposit and a level 4 market, and that's probably still too high, considering what's offered there. I make lots and lots of emeralds and jewels and trade them for pots, baskets, bricks and other goods, roughly in that order.
The game is introduced as a slow paced thing where you log in for a few minutes at a time, once or several times per day, and if you stick to that, the wait times aren't really so bad. I think that the social aspect - meeting the people on the Sabah trade wall - is more fun than the actual gameplay itself.

Old Git
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Postby Old Git » Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:46 am

Thanks for all the advice. I am taking it to heart and appreciate it.


On the forum name being different than the in game name, it's an old habit developed from playing many online games for many years now. Just in case I say the wrong thing on the forums, intentional or unintentional, I can avoid some issues in game. It's usually of the unintentional variety, but after getting hammered once because the person misread my post, I do things this way. :) If anyone wants to trade or whatever in game, just drop me a PM on this forum.


I haven't started daily trades, but I am developing some regular trades.

I think I am doing well for being such an old git. lol

Old Git

...older than dirt
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