Gifts

All discussion regarding the world of Theoris
Muad'Dib
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 5:53 pm
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Gifts

Postby Muad'Dib » Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:03 pm

Hi there,

I'm up for my second time around the Nile but I'm getting a little annoyed by all the "gifts" ppl send me. It was nice to see some old friends again and they gave me a few resources to get started with and I'm cool with that.

At the tradewall however it seems there is a new policy to "help" low level players out. I'm cool with that too... However... be sure to ASK the low level players if they even want those gifts in the first place!!! Not everyone is new to the Nile and they like to have some challenge here! I finished at age 35 the first time with only 26 cedar and some bricks which were gifted to me at my own request. If things are going to be like this, I will finish at age 11 I'm affraid...

Don't get me wrong, it's a nice thing to help ppl out but only if they want to!
So pls. pay some attention to this and stop screwing other ppls game up by unwanted gifts! Thank you!

thechris
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Postby thechris » Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:49 pm

both thumbs up!!! only send things if they want it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PantherX
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Postby PantherX » Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:25 am

I guess one answer would be to have a sink goods button. You see a log file of incoming goods or even goods that have arrived. One click of the button and the listed goods sink into the Nile.
:eek:
:cool:

Antikuity
Posts: 99
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:17 pm
Location: Arkansas, USA

Another thumbs up!!

Postby Antikuity » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:00 pm

"PantherX" wrote:I guess one answer would be to have a sink goods button. You see a log file of incoming goods or even goods that have arrived. One click of the button and the listed goods sink into the Nile.
:eek:


As I am a guilty party on both sides of this question or argument, I agree. We should be able to either accept a said shipment or nae. That would solve the problem. The 'giver' would ne'er hae to know that his/her goods are sunk to the bottom of the Nile, leaving them with that 'do-goody' feeling, and yet, the 'getter' can be satisfied that they do nae hae to store the unwanted goods.
Very acceptable answer to this complex troubling problem.
Ye hae mine vote, for sure, Panther, lol.
::curtsies:::
Antikuity

Lost Wanderer
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Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 2:40 am
Location: Sabah II - 95N....Theoris II - 137S

Postby Lost Wanderer » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:29 pm

My solution has been to put the unwanted gifts on the market at .1 bread. It reduces the impact of thousands of goods to hundreds of bread, which imho is much easier to ignore, and makes someone else happy at the same time, which was the gifters original intent.

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:37 pm

If TM gives us the ability to sink an incoming shipment, it would cause chaos with trading; we would never again be able to trust ANY trade.

"Hey, where's my stuff?"

"I sent them!"

"No, you didn't. Where are they?"

"You sunk them!"

"Prove it!"

I DO love the spirit of the suggestion, though. Especially if the gifter also loses boats! :D

EDIT: Also, part of the problem with gifting is not just the shipment itself, but the overage. The gifter sends extra on what we thought was a fair trade when agreed to. ;)
Last edited by Tinkerbell on Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:55 pm, edited 6 times in total.

SlipperyJim
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Postby SlipperyJim » Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:16 pm

I'm sorry to be a grumpy cuss, but I don't see any real problem here. If there is a problem, it certainly doesn't rise to the level of requiring TM's intervention with a "sink gifts" feature.

If you don't want the gifts, it seems to me that you have at least two options:
  • Ship the gifts back to the sender as soon as you have enough ships to do so.
  • Put the gifts on the Market for a ridiculously-low price and let someone else have them. (Great idea, Lost Wanderer!)

Perhaps someone who is more clever than me can think of other ideas....

I like gifts. I'm a semi-new player on an OCC, and one of the qualities of Nile Online that has kept my interest is the community. Generosity is a big part of that community. I got my first few levels from "welcome" gifts. Now I'm at the point where I'm earning each level myself, but I won't forget the "helping hand" that I got when I was a mere Vagrant....

Now I "pay it forward" by helping new players. Nothing extravagant! I don't send thousands of lux goods or 10,000 bricks. I can't quite afford such generosity ... yet. For now, I'll send a hundred cedar for the first boats. Maybe I'll send a few hundred bricks to help with those early buildings.

Y'know what? Nobody has complained yet. :)

I have two big concerns with the "Anti-Gifts" movement. Firstly, I don't want to see the Nile Online community become less generous or welcoming. As I wrote, that community spirit is a big part of why I play. Secondly, I don't want to see TM spend any of their limited development cycles on "fixing" something that: A) isn't really such a big problem at all, and B) already has some options within the existing feature set. Seriously, I'd much rather encourage TM to expand the Nile Online experience (yay, quests!) than whip out a "sink gifts" or "refuse shipment" feature.

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:27 pm

"SlipperyJim" wrote:I'm sorry to be a grumpy cuss, but I don't see any real problem here.


and that is the problem with gifters.

"I am GOD! How dare you refuse my gifts!"

Players like you require that WE are required to get rid of the gifts. To use OUR boats & wasted time to do it

or

Become gifters ourselves & pass the gift along to the market. Worse, at low prices, it will be the high rankers who will buy them more than low rankers.

Those of us who do not want to be gifted, want a game wth challenge. Gifting destroys that challenge.
Last edited by Tinkerbell on Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Muad'Dib
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Postby Muad'Dib » Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:49 pm

I like the idea of a sink button. Like at the market when you are buying goods, one is always asked if you realy want to buy these goods, so if you mess up by clicking yes for the second time than that's your fault of course. If it's also stored in the transport log from both parties i can't see how this wouldn't work.

Putting those gifts on the market would disturb the game balance in my opion, or maybe i just want to see ppl struggle as much as i do :D

Oh.. and using my own boats to return gifts? I have 4 ships ready now, took me long enough and now i need to build more, shift labour from other stuff to my exchange etc. etc. It will take me too long, just because someone was "generous" enough to gift me stuff? I don't think so....

@ Slippery Jim

Love love love this community, and you may gift as many as you please, just be sure to ask ppl first if they even want these gifts or want to make it on their own strenght!

@kuity

I still care for you, even after these gifts which were made in a kind gesture of an old friend ;) Nw!
Last edited by Muad'Dib on Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SlipperyJim
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Postby SlipperyJim » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:03 pm

"Muad'Dib" wrote:@ Slippery Jim

Love love love this community, and you may gift as many as you please, just be sure to ask ppl first if they even want these gifts or want to make it on their own strenght!


Like I said, I'm semi-new, so I could be wrong here. But it seems to me that the societal norm on the Nile is that new players get gifts. You enjoy the challenge of starting from scratch, so you don't want gifts. Fair enough! If you want to play the game on "Hard Mode," then surely it is your responsibility to tell people of your preference? In other words, if you don't want gifts, then please say that you don't want gifts.

I don't give anything to people who say they don't want gifts. Why would I? What benefit is there in giving up my resources for someone who is only going to be offended? However, I do give small gifts to new players who do not clearly indicate that they don't want gifts. If I give something to you by accident, please consider my gift to be an open gesture of support and goodwill ... not an attempt to ruin your game. Fair enough?

(Alternately, you could PM me with your in-game identity, and I'll make a note to never give you anything.)

SlipperyJim
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Postby SlipperyJim » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:04 pm

"Tinkerbell" wrote:and that is the problem with gifters.

"I am GOD! How dare you refuse my gifts!"


Ad hominem attack ... ignoring the rest of the post. No offense, but I'm not interested in a flame war today. :)

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:09 pm

"SlipperyJim" wrote: If you want to play the game on "Hard Mode," then surely it is your responsibility to tell people of your preference? In other words, if you don't want gifts, then please say that you don't want gifts.


Say what?

It is the responsibility of the gifter to ask & then respect the wishes of the giftee, not the other way around.

SlipperyJim
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Postby SlipperyJim » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:23 pm

"Tinkerbell" wrote:Say what?

It is the responsibility of the gifter to ask & then respect the wishes of the giftee, not the other way around.


If the prevailing culture on the Nile is to give stuff to newbies -- and it seems to be so -- then it is your responsibility to stake out your counter-cultural position. You're the person who wants to swim upstream, not me, so take responsibility for it yourself.

I'll offer you the same suggestion that I gave to Muad'Dib: PM me your in-game identity, and I'll make a note to never give you anything. :) Or you can send me a scroll; my in-game identity is Imhotep.

---

Actually, here's a compromise suggestion: Why don't you simply make a "No Gifts Please!" registry on the forums? Everyone who doesn't want a gift can post their in-game identity, and gifters will know who doesn't want gifts. Simple!

Tinkerbell
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Postby Tinkerbell » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:36 pm

"SlipperyJim" wrote:If the prevailing culture on the Nile is to give stuff to newbies -- and it seems to be so -- then it is your responsibility to stake out your counter-cultural position.


That's one hell of an assumption you are making here.

You're the person who wants to swim upstream, not me, so take responsibility for it yourself.


I am swimming upstream?

LOL

thechris
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Postby thechris » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:33 pm

the problem with this is, some people LOVE gifts and thats the reson they picked this over other games, but others hate it and they dont want it and have to go out of there way to get rid off it, and like tink said before, people can claim they didnt get goods, but that can be countered if the shipment log lasted forever

so what im saying is to let the monkeys have the goods if you want to give it to them and the log should last forever so people cant claim they didnt get goods

Muad'Dib
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Postby Muad'Dib » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:40 pm

"SlipperyJim" wrote: it seems to me that the societal norm on the Nile is that new players get gifts.


Sure, if they like them, but how do you reconize a new player? Like i said, it's my second time around.

"SlipperyJim" wrote:I don't give anything to people who say they don't want gifts. Why would I? What benefit is there in giving up my resources for someone who is only going to be offended?


Funny thing, we did a trade today, I am Usul :) 80 sculptures for 100 jewelry, you remember? I added: "no gifts pls" to my trade, but in my opinion this shouldn't be necessary. The other day i put up: wtt 100 bronze for 100 kohl. Then someone replies to me, i don't need bronze, i have a bronze city myself, consider the kohl as a gift! Be sure to pay it forward if you grow stronger. Can you see the irony here?? I didn't ask for a gift and then i have to pay it forward as well???

Ivy
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Postby Ivy » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:41 pm

"SlipperyJim" wrote:Like I said, I'm semi-new, so I could be wrong here. But it seems to me that the societal norm on the Nile is that new players get gifts.


Gifting is a comparatively recent thing. When I first started on Sabah last December there was no gifting culture. I received one ship with bricks/bread from a friend who had started playing before me and that was it. On Theoris, right at the start, obviously there was no gifting. No one had anything to give! Restarting Sabah was a different story. The first time I went on the wall to ask for 26 cedar, I ended up with 90 ships headed my way. I thought it was funny at the time - but when I restarted Theoris, I felt I had to lie low and be very careful when I asked for anything so I didn't get bombarded. I wanted to try to do it by myself as far as possible this time round.

You enjoy the challenge of starting from scratch, so you don't want gifts. Fair enough! If you want to play the game on "Hard Mode," then surely it is your responsibility to tell people of your preference? In other words, if you don't want gifts, then please say that you don't want gifts.


Why? Do people really need to post "WTT 100 henna for kohl but don't send any gifts" on the Wall not to be gifted? The would-be gifter should ask and not make an assumption that the gift is welcome. Gifts shorten the game for the giftee. Yes it is a choice, but not one that you should make for someone else - not without asking!

Edit: Just saw Muad'Dib's post:
Can you see the irony here?? I didn't ask for a gift and then i have to pay it forward as well???


Absolutely!
Last edited by Ivy on Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SlipperyJim
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Postby SlipperyJim » Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:47 pm

"Muad'Dib" wrote:Funny thing, we did a trade today, I am Usul :) 80 sculptures for 100 jewelry, you remember? I added: "no gifts pls" to my trade, but in my opinion this shouldn't be necessary.

I remember you. I usually trade for sculpture and sandals at 1:1 with other lux goods, but I made an exception for you because I wanted to help someone I thought was new to the game.

(I know that the actual "bread value" of sculpture & sandals is higher than jewelry, but I still trade at 1:1. No, I'm not going to get into that argument either.)

Anyway, I'm adding Usul to my "No Gifts" list. I won't give you anything else! :D

"Muad'Dib" wrote:The other day i put up: wtt 100 bronze for 100 kohl. Then someone replies to me, i don't need bronze, i have a bronze city myself, consider the kohl as a gift! Be sure to pay it forward if you grow stronger. Can you see the irony here?? I didn't ask for a gift and then i have to pay it forward as well???

Don't pay it forward, then? You didn't want the gift, so you shouldn't feel any obligation to the giver.

Personally, I enjoy gifting. I gave 100 bricks, 50 jewelry, and 50 perfume to a new player this morning. That's a targeted gift to help him make the level 4 Palace upgrade. I would have given more bricks, but I was low on available ships.

"Ivy" wrote:Gifting is a comparatively recent thing. When I first started on Sabah last December there was no gifting culture. I received one ship with bricks/bread from a friend who had started playing before me and that was it.


Aha, now this information is interesting. As I wrote in my first post, I am semi-new to the Nile, so I could be mistaken about the gifting. I thought I was just doing what was normal. It appears that I am mistaken. Thanks for correcting me! :D

---

I'll rethink my gifting based on your posts. I doubt that I'll stop completely, because I enjoy gifting. It's a part of the game for me. I bought my scarabs, so I actually paid (a bit) for the game, and I'll play it how I like. However, I don't want to squash anyone else's enjoyment of the game ... so I'll think about how I give stuff and to whom I give it. Fair enough?

Pontius Pilatus
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Gifteconomy rocks.

Postby Pontius Pilatus » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:34 pm

LOL I don't believe this thread.

Gifteconomy will bring us a better, friendlier and happier world. :)

Just read the diagram.

Cheers!
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But it ain't necessarily so.

Fenehk
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Postby Fenehk » Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:59 pm

Yes please. I got back from my temporary death yesterday, and someone sent me a few hundred lux goods and cedar. He DID ask first, but he didn't give me time to actually respond. So I came back with a "no thanks", checked my transports and saw that he'd send it all.

You know, I sort of started over because I wanted to experience being a low-level, low-laborer vagrant again. If I didn't want to build everything up from scratch, I wouldn't have gone immortal in the first place. It's not like it's a particularly generous thing to do, either. What's a few hundred lux goods to a player with four L22 cities? It's nothing. It's the crumbs between the cushions on your couch. I wasted tens of thousands of goods on quests just for the fun of it back then and had plenty to spare before going immortal.

I guess it's the idea of helping out a new player, because the first few levels are sort of rough. Problem is, a lot of us like rough. Getting a bunch of free stuff sent to you is like... playing a city builder, and upon clicking "New Game" you're given a fully functioning city from the bat. That's not why I play those kind of games! I play them because I enjoy building big things out of nothing.

It sounds like I'm whining like crazy. It's not that big a deal to me, but it may be for some people. I've seen several total newbies who were visibly disappointed when the first greeting they got when finding the scribe wall was to have tons of goods sent to them, too. Doesn't matter much to most, but it does to few. So I'd be happy if people would ask BEFORE sending stuff, and if they don't get a reply, don't send it! It's kinda rude to assume people want your help.


Now I just need to figure out what to do with the free junk I was sent. I'd prefer to send it back, but it'd take several days with just one ship, going back and forth, to shovel all that stuff back whence it came... I COULD put it up really cheap on the market, and hope my neighbors don't mind. Yeah, I think that'll be the best...


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