ON fortifications, city enclosure and Basic Medieval warfare

Everything Medieval Mayor that doesn't fit elsewhere
GueulEclator
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:31 am

ON fortifications, city enclosure and Basic Medieval warfare

Postby GueulEclator » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:07 am

OK so I hear what the boss said (Beatrice) and this game won't feature combat. I'm not sure if I truly understood what he meant. How far will this ''no military'' extend?
I've been playing Zeus, Cleopatra, Caesar 3 and while none of them focused on military, these city building simulator still featured a very basic troop and defense system.

The Medieval era sure had a lot of turmoil (even thought the conflict and battles were less bloody than our modern ones) and cities were no exception. While one city could enjoy a relatively peaceful time, it's citizen still had to be ready for long iconic medieval siege. There have been plenty of wars involving these autonomous city. Mainly city vs city war, but also brigand raids (like the ecorcheurs in France) or simply a larger scale war involving the kings of their respective country.
Tensions were fairly common in these divided lands, and periodically resulted in (often short lived) Sieges.

Pretty much every city of that time were surrounded by relatively dense network of fortifications, ranging from a simple surrounding wall to highly sophisticated defense system (double/triple enclosure , catapults, moat, Boiling oil...).

The older city game that I mentioned above had addressed the matter by giving us a very basic military system that didn't overshadow in any way the city building experience.

Are you truly going to completely shy away from the military (apart from textual diplomatic events) part of the history of medieval cities? Or will we still be able to build fortifications around our cities when the need arise? And also eventually recruit small battalion of soldier to man our walls (and that will work in a very intuitive and simplistic manner)?

Will we always build cities like in an utopian world, without any kind of defenses?
Even more than any era, fortifications are iconic to the medieval ages. It didn't prevent it to be an age of enlightenment and high cultural achievement but it's a fact nonetheless. It would be a bit weird if this whole dimension was completely ignored.

In the end, I'm not sure what the Lead designer really meant when he said ''no combat'' (not an actual quote).
So, can the position of the developers be clarified on the matter?


Looking forward to this Game. Will pledge If I see a kickstarter =D
Last edited by GueulEclator on Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

Azeem
Posts: 3678
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Hetepsenusret

Postby Azeem » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:26 pm

According to the interviews so far, it seems that the game is focused on the towns rather than the castles / manors out in the countryside. As far as the less pleasant side of medieval life, they've hinted that there's certain events that come up that players would have to prepare for, but it's really not clear what they mean by that... :confused:

GueulEclator
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:31 am

Postby GueulEclator » Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:03 am

Yeah I read that, but has I've been writing : how far does this goes. Caesar also said it focused on citizen life, yet it did featured fortifications and basic defense.

I'm really interrested to know if there will be fortifications, walls or not. Especially since every single medieval city was surrounded by walls and tower.

So saying you want to emulate a medieval city without basic defensive elements is a bit confusing :/

PantherX
Posts: 1111
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:00 am
Location: The Beautiful Monterey Bay California

Postby PantherX » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:07 am

"GueulEclator" wrote:So saying you want to emulate a medieval city without basic defensive elements is a bit confusing :/


Nope, what was said is that it's not about warfare or building towers and castles. There are plenty of games out there that focus on those aspects.

What I expect TM to do is what they usually do. There will be some combat but not alot. Most if not all cities had walls or defensive structures so there will probably be some of that to resist invaders/looters/brigands. But again it's not about the warfare, it's about protecting your citizens and building a town.
:cool:

GueulEclator
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:31 am

Postby GueulEclator » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:34 pm

"PantherX" wrote:Nope, what was said is that it's not about warfare or building towers and castles. There are plenty of games out there that focus on those aspects.

What I expect TM to do is what they usually do. There will be some combat but not alot. Most if not all cities had walls or defensive structures so there will probably be some of that to resist invaders/looters/brigands. But again it's not about the warfare, it's about protecting your citizens and building a town.



Yes, don't get me wrong, I don't want it to focus on warfare :) .

But as we both said, some walls and defensive structure are to be expected in any medieval city, as well as some basic element of danger : brigand, invader...

Viljanen86
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:10 am

Postby Viljanen86 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:11 pm

They can also make the fortifications just something the citizens want to have just like in Caesar games. The higher level people demanded to have walls "for their safety".

I agree that medieval city without walls seems a bit naked.

GueulEclator
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:31 am

Postby GueulEclator » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:17 pm

Summoning Chris Beatrice
Chris Beatrice : Does your game features fortification or not?

You said that your game isn't a military games and put emphasis on the civilian part of the medieval age, yet will it feature basic military upkeep like in Caesar, pharaoh or master of olympus (and like medieval cities back then)?

If yes will you be able to control these soldier on the maps? Will you be able to man your walls properly speaking?
Last edited by GueulEclator on Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.

GueulEclator
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:31 am

Postby GueulEclator » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:16 am

:( .

Keith
Posts: 9965
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Postby Keith » Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:11 am

From Chris' Gamers Arena interview in Oct, 2012 - "...We are not planning to include combat proper, as it tends to not mesh well with core city-building gameplay. But yes, military support (and other ways of supporting the crown) is an important challenge for you to have to deal with...."

From the sounds of it, "support" might mean making and sending weapons, or money so the king can raise an army, or maybe people will leave the city for a time to "serve" the king in battle, etc. Those are just my guesses at what "support" could mean. It doesn't sound like there will be major fighting in or around the city, or it will be greatly scaled back somehow to be more of a nuisance than an actual threat to your city.

User avatar
Chris Beatrice
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue May 04, 2004 4:00 pm

Postby Chris Beatrice » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:14 pm

Sorry I missed this thread earlier. Anyway, we are planning on having fortifications, but what we're avoiding is any kind of tactile combat that forces the player to kind of switch to "rts" mode, so to speak. We're not sure if we're even going to have fighting played out on the screen at all, but if we do, it'll basically be automated.

City walls will reduce the chance of attack and, if an attack occurs, will increase the chance of survival. Attacks take the form of a siege, meaning some city functions may be cut off (e.g. trade) and some events associated with a siege may occur (e.g. farms destroyed). But because we're necessarily kind of merging the rural side (farms) with the city proper on a single, relatively small map (small and compact compared to a real Medieval county), we can't separate the farms from the city as easily.

There are also military-related events, such as foreign wars, that require you to send supplies, money, and possibly people.

So we are trying to include all aspects of warfare, military, fortifications, etc. associated with the period, without having any combat proper. We agree that it is part of the flavor of the period, but note that just because many medieval cities had walls, this does not mean it was commonplace for cities to be besieged by armies. In fact, walls were mainly employed to control trade and entrance to the city (i.e. to exact tolls). Cities used to close at night, and open in the morning, and this was made possible via a wall and gates.

Our goal is not to artificially sanitize the period by excluding the various elements discussed, but since this is a game, it needs to maintain a certain focus, so these things will be handled more abstractly.

Azeem
Posts: 3678
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Hetepsenusret

Postby Azeem » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:21 pm

Sounds like CotN's system, but up a notch or two. Since MM hearkens to previous pre-CotN models, would there in this case also be "Security" ratings won from successfully fulfilling military requests or building sufficient walls (as in Caesar III and Caesar IV) that would be necessary for housing to evolve or accomplishing goals?

User avatar
Chris Beatrice
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue May 04, 2004 4:00 pm

Postby Chris Beatrice » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:16 pm

"Azeem" wrote:Sounds like CotN's system, but up a notch or two. Since MM hearkens to previous pre-CotN models, would there in this case also be "Security" ratings won from successfully fulfilling military requests or building sufficient walls (as in Caesar III and Caesar IV) that would be necessary for housing to evolve or accomplishing goals?


Yep, there is a security rating.

Caesar Clifford
Posts: 975
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:17 am
Location: Kiwiland
Contact:

Postby Caesar Clifford » Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:37 am

"Chris Beatrice" wrote:Sorry I missed this thread earlier. Anyway, we are planning on having fortifications, but what we're avoiding is any kind of tactile combat that forces the player to kind of switch to "rts" mode, so to speak. We're not sure if we're even going to have fighting played out on the screen at all, but if we do, it'll basically be automated.


.


I loved Caesar 2 which had totally seperate fighting from city building and although it has nothing to do with this new game can i just say that the map of proviences that you could click on different ones to play as you expanded your empire was probably the coolest system out and has yet to be matched in any CB game since. And that rooster - I loved that rooster. I've got a C2 CD but can't get it to play on my Win7 computer - its one game i'd love to be able to still play.

Keith
Posts: 9965
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Postby Keith » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:17 pm

"Caesar Clifford" wrote:I've got a C2 CD but can't get it to play on my Win7 computer - its one game i'd love to be able to still play.


It's supposed to be able to run on Win95. Does Win7 have a Win95 compatability mode?

Caesar Clifford
Posts: 975
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:17 am
Location: Kiwiland
Contact:

Postby Caesar Clifford » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:33 pm

No idea - thats probably a bit technical for me.

xau99
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 9:18 pm

Postby xau99 » Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:12 pm

"Keith" wrote:It's supposed to be able to run on Win95. Does Win7 have a Win95 compatability mode?



Keith you can try and run it in Windows Compatibility mode. Right click the C2 shortcut and select properties, click the compatibility tab, from the drop down select win XP or whatever old OS you want it to run (I usually use Xp it seems to work fine for most if not all older games). For added measure you can also select the "run as administrator" option

Nighteyes
Posts: 243
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:41 am
Location: In my computer (Australia, Victoria)

Postby Nighteyes » Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:47 pm

I don't know if the compatibility mode would work for C2, but in order to try it you need to:
- Right click on the exe, or shortcut
- Select Properties
- select the compatibility tab
- check the "run this Program in compatibility mode for:" and change the selection to your desired OS
- you want to allow admin privliges for it, check the "run this program as an administator"
- Hit either apply or OK and then try run it again.

Some of those points are fairly self expanatroy, but I made it super simple just in case.

Hope this works for you.
and Merry Christmas.
Last edited by Nighteyes on Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pharaoh Pepy
Posts: 196
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:32 pm

Postby Pharaoh Pepy » Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:14 pm

"Chris Beatrice" wrote:Sorry I missed this thread earlier. Anyway, we are planning on having fortifications, but what we're avoiding is any kind of tactile combat that forces the player to kind of switch to "rts" mode, so to speak. We're not sure if we're even going to have fighting played out on the screen at all, but if we do, it'll basically be automated.

City walls will reduce the chance of attack and, if an attack occurs, will increase the chance of survival. Attacks take the form of a siege, meaning some city functions may be cut off (e.g. trade) and some events associated with a siege may occur (e.g. farms destroyed). But because we're necessarily kind of merging the rural side (farms) with the city proper on a single, relatively small map (small and compact compared to a real Medieval county), we can't separate the farms from the city as easily.

There are also military-related events, such as foreign wars, that require you to send supplies, money, and possibly people.

So we are trying to include all aspects of warfare, military, fortifications, etc. associated with the period, without having any combat proper. We agree that it is part of the flavor of the period, but note that just because many medieval cities had walls, this does not mean it was commonplace for cities to be besieged by armies. In fact, walls were mainly employed to control trade and entrance to the city (i.e. to exact tolls). Cities used to close at night, and open in the morning, and this was made possible via a wall and gates.

Our goal is not to artificially sanitize the period by excluding the various elements discussed, but since this is a game, it needs to maintain a certain focus, so these things will be handled more abstractly.


That sounds fine.

arcan
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: France

Postby arcan » Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:02 am

i do like the CotN system. I don't mind having combats onscreen, like invasions in Caesar, as long as I can disable them if I don't want them. (but then the whole military system gets useless, so not a good option either)

n3trid3r
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:27 pm
Location: East Coast, USA

Postby n3trid3r » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:45 am

*Really* hoping you'll reconsider what is sounding like an almost abandonment of the military side of the game. One of the strengths of Caeasar III and IV were the ability to choose an economic- or military-focused option at each level. Pure city-building can be fun and certainly has it's challenges, but I thoroughly enjoyed the combat in both Caesars and RotMK, and think it would be a shame to leave that out entirely.


Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest