Walker suggestions and other ideas

Discuss anticipated or desired features here
Marius
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:01 pm
Location: Vancouver

Postby Marius » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:34 am

I want the Caesar III wolves to come back ... the surfing sheep too ... these were priceless easter eggs.

To quote myself from several years ago ...
--- Funny Memory from Caesar III ---

The first time I had the option to build a Pig Farm I saw these furry animals across the water. So I figured ... Oh ok these must be wild boars in the forest like in the Asterix comics I read as a child. So I build a few more farms for pigs and a bridge so my happy little romans can gather up the wild boars and keep them in farms. Oh and the cute furry wild boars were so accommodating. They happily came right to the bridge, scurried across and settled down to munching on my population. I think they especially liked those defenseless fellows with the long red capes and armor. You know the ones who went straight to the 'boars' and got eaten right up.

Then I went online after watching this event with stunned wonder. (My spouse remembers me saying " but... dear ... they're eating my people ... the pigs are eating my romans???"

Once online I found a wonderfully explanatory thread that was titled:

How do I kill the FOOKIN' Wolves?


As to the surfing sheep, nothing was quite as wierdly funny as the bloody sheep floating down river on logs for no apparent purpose other than a need to hang ten.

Do the wolves or sheep qualify as walkers? The wolves certainly affected the not as much the quality of my Roman's lives but its very existence. As for the sheep ... if I found them disturbingly funny, I can imagine Gluteus Pixelmas of which ever Rundown Roman hamlet found them equally disturbing.
Last edited by Marius on Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

Caesar Clifford
Posts: 975
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:17 am
Location: Kiwiland
Contact:

Postby Caesar Clifford » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:54 am

Yes they were all walkers that counted towards the sprite limit even the seagulls counted. And zebras floated down the rivers too.

EmperorJay
Posts: 936
Joined: Tue May 04, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Postby EmperorJay » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:59 am

I'm really curious to find out what the new walker system will be, how it will work and what we can do to use it!

That being said: wolves and surfing sheep? Yes please!

User avatar
Chris Beatrice
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue May 04, 2004 4:00 pm

Postby Chris Beatrice » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:27 pm

That is a REALLY funny story about the wolves...

Anguille
Posts: 161
Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 6:12 pm
Location: Bern, Switzerland

Postby Anguille » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:19 pm

I'd like to some kind of Robin Hood / Band thieves event (like the wolves) where you need to send guards etc. Also the need to have guards walking around the city during the night (which means i also which to have "night" time in the game).

I'd be interesting if you could be a good or a bad mayor. A bad mayor would have "positive" events (like Robin Hood) and the good mayor would have "negative events (like band of thieves).

Rph37963
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:00 pm

Postby Rph37963 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:09 am

I'm really looking forward to Medieval Mayor! Since there's already discussion about the push-based walker system, I though I'd give a suggestion, if you at TM are thinking about using them. (I much preferred CotN to Pharaoh, mostly because there were no market ladies, by the way, but that's not what I'm here to say.)

My request if you do have push walkers: give the building that spawns the waker a door (or side) that they'll always come out of. I always had a problem placing buildings at intersections, because the walker always seemed to come out of the building on the wrong side of a roadblock ("Grr! I don't need you water-bearers to visit my granary! Go the other way!"). If I could tell (or choose) from which side of the building a walker would always appear, I think the game would be better to me.

Keith
Posts: 9976
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Postby Keith » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:03 am

"Rph37963" wrote:If I could tell (or choose) from which side of the building a walker would always appear, I think the game would be better to me.


That was easy, for the most part in CotN they come out the front. As long as that area of the building is not blocked. Some buildings had two means of entry/exit and if one was blocked the other could be used. All you have to do is make sure that the building's front is turned to a open area, typically a road, and that you don't place another building right in front of the front opening, unless the building has a secondary entry/exit point like the apothecary. Just remember to use the "rotate" command before you place any new building so the front is accessable to a open area or road.

In the old games, the walker system sought out the first available road connection starting athe building's NE corner or 1 o'clock square adjacent to that building. If there was a open road connection at that point, that is where the walker appeared.

If the 1 o'clock square had no road or had a roadblock on it, the next spot looked at was E or at the 3 o'clock square. If there was no road connection there, or, if there were a roadblock placed there, and the 1 o'clock square was also similarly "disconnected" from the road system, the game would next examine the SE square or 5 o'clock square next to the building If there was a roadblock and the previous two spots were not available as well the walker would come out a the S or 6 o'clock spot and so on all the way around the building ending backu p at the 12 o'clock position.

The game would create the walker at the first spot next to the building that had a road without a roadblock on it. Starting at NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, NW, and finally N or starting at the 1 o'clock position around the building to 12 o'clock in a clockwise manner.

Once you knew how that worked placing buildings and predicting where walkers came out was easy.

To keep walkers from straying you could leave a square of road vacant at a spot you did not want them to turn down. The random walker would come to the missing road square and turn around and head back if there was no other option to use, such as turning on to a connected road at that intersection. Using "disconnected block" designs, kept the random walkers confined to a specific section of roads and kept them from wandering off elsewhere. This kept all the services they provided confined to that area.

Roadblocks, gates, and even City Gates (which one's you had available depended on what game you were playing) all functioned to halt random walker from wandering in directions you didn't want them to go.

Only "destination walkers" could pass "no road squares", gates, city gates and roadblocks.

In Emperor the residential gates could be prioritized to allow various types of walkers through, such as market and religious walkers, etc., allowing some random walkers to pass but not others.

arcan
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: France

Postby arcan » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:01 am

I do like intelligent walkers rather than having to use roadblocks. The walker just goes where needed. Of course, if too many people need him or if he doesn't have enough goods, all houses won't be delivered.

Keith
Posts: 9976
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Postby Keith » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:29 am

I like the newer system too. The old system seemed too artificial. But that is the way it goes. Looks like I'll have to refresh my old playing skills a bit for MM.

Alrope
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:07 am
Location: Brazil

Postby Alrope » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:38 am

Well, one solution it would be an option (not mandatory) for route creation to walkers as you create for transports in Cities in Motion...
For some it will be way to much micromanagement, but for some could seem nice...

Keith
Posts: 9976
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Postby Keith » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:55 pm

"Alrope" wrote:Well, one solution it would be an option (not mandatory) for route creation to walkers as you create for transports in Cities in Motion...
For some it will be way to much micromanagement, but for some could seem nice...


Controlling walkers and where they travel has been debated many times over years.

If I understand your point, it's to allow a player to map out a route for a walker to travel within the game.

That might take away from some of the "gamey" feel that Chris was talking about. Too much control could do that.

Czech Centurian
Posts: 458
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: South Africa

Postby Czech Centurian » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:56 pm

"Alrope" wrote:Well, one solution it would be an option (not mandatory) for route creation to walkers as you create for transports in Cities in Motion...
For some it will be way to much micromanagement, but for some could seem nice...


Thats transport vehicles though, buses, trams etc... Not individual people.

User avatar
Chris Beatrice
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue May 04, 2004 4:00 pm

Postby Chris Beatrice » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:40 pm

"Keith" wrote:I like the newer system too. The old system seemed too artificial. But that is the way it goes. Looks like I'll have to refresh my old playing skills a bit for MM.


At the risk of misquoting myself... please don't think I'm saying MM has a walker system just like Pharaoh! What we're doing in MM is more visual and clear, like Pharaoh, and I say the game has "walkers" because they're not simply literal 1:1 representations of your citizens.

What I find really interesting is how the market lady, specifically, is the main point of contention. The market lady is unique in Pharaoh and similar cb's: she the only transporter of actual resources that does not have a specific destination. Looked at the other way around, she's the only random house-server that transports actual goods (this is notable because food is consumed based on housing population, whereas something like theater access or fire risk decays strictly based on time).

As people have been discussing this lately, no one seems to care about, say, the flood fill-based service access in C4, for example, or the destination-based resource transporters in Pharaoh... or the fact that fire prevention walkers were also random... it's just that pesky market lady... When people say they liked this or that system for whatever reason, they tend to be talking only about houses getting food and goods from markets.

Alrope
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:07 am
Location: Brazil

Postby Alrope » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:17 pm

"Keith" wrote:If I understand your point, it's to allow a player to map out a route for a walker to travel within the game.


Yes, it would be like this.
Using a Caesar III example, you need a bath-house to evolve your small casa to a large casa. After you put it on the game you could click on it and select an option: define route. then you will select a path to all the walkers who came from that building. Like a bus line in Cities in Motion. It could look like this:

Image

The orange circle is the bathhouse you install. The red lines represent the route of walkers and the little arrows mark their direction (it´s designed in a 8 shape). The other bath-house will be no longer needed as you prevent the lack of access of the houses on middle street, so common at that time...

But I don´t say it´s better than the current system. Could be optional to people who are real control freaks and want to control every single poor creature who lives in his towns...

Ok sometimes I wish too... :D

And could save some space if we don´t have to duplicate buildings to avoid that middle street effect.

But I don´t know if all the programming effort, plus defining the max number of road tiles allowed to use in a path from each of that buildings, plus all the micromanagement it represents, will worth it.

Maybe it just kill all the fun like Chris said...

It´s just an idea that had occurred to me.
Last edited by Alrope on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Chris Beatrice
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue May 04, 2004 4:00 pm

Postby Chris Beatrice » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

"Alrope" wrote:Yes, it would be like this.
Using a Caesar III example, you need a bath-house to evolve your small casa to a large casa. After you put it on the game you could click on it and select an option: define route. then you will select a path to all the walkers who came from that building. Like a bus line in Cities in Motion.

But I don´t say it´s better than the current system. Could be optional to people who are real control freaks and want to control every single poor creature who lives in his towns...

Maybe it just kill all the fun like Chris said... It´s just an idea that had occurred to me.


You never know... I'm always amazed at how much thought you guys put into this stuff. It's also amazing how some of the fun games have really irritating "flaws", and they're not the things the designer was concerned about when making the game! Meanwhile there are other things that designers worry about seeming nonsensical or cludgy, then they work fine and players love them. So you really never know.

I started (ok, well FUELED) this debate about walkers because it is a subject of almost endless possibilities, and there are lots of very valid perspectives and ideas (including this one).

We start with the question of "what kind of game do we want to make?" For Medieval Mayor that's a medieval city-builder that captures the particular kind of magic of games like Pharaoh and Zeus. Part of that magic is, I think, connected to the scale of the game, or, the player's level in it. How "zoomed in" (or not) the player is to the lives of the people in the city, so to speak. That means not micromanaging families in detail, but also not dealing with simple global effects either (again, putting it simplistically). Because the scale is somewhat pulled back, some stuff needs to be pushed, because that's the only way to move a lot of stuff quickly and visibly, and with some feeling on the part of the player that there are direct effects of his actions, and those effects don't take a long time to play out. But "push" is not so much an overall system as it is a tool, which, I will point out, has been used in all our games including CotN (while all of them, including Pharaoh and Zeus have also employed some "pull").

As I noted on quarter to three... so much of this debate seems to center on the poor market lady. I hope we get food distribution right in MM or there will be hell to pay I'm sure... and deservedly so...

The other magical thing about Pharoah, Zues and Ceasar, now proudly shared by Medeival Mayor, is a pair of vowels in the title which occur in an unusual order, causing people to frequently misspell them.

Keith
Posts: 9976
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Postby Keith » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:45 am

That poor ol' market lady does seem to catch most of the flak. :)

Other walkers were problematic but the ML has always been #1 on everyone's complaint list at some point.

Players unfamiliar with her "whims and ways" would hang on the edge of their seats in anticipation, as she emerged from the market, and then scream in disbelief as she promptly turned "the wrong way." :)

Once one learned how to "tame the shrew", her quirks weren't so bothersome. (Hmmm..."Taming of the Shrew" sounds like a good title for a scenario! :D )

I guess she was the most notable because with/without her it seemed like housing would evolve and devolve noticeably as she passed or failed to pass. And in the early stages of building housing areas she was one of the most important walkers to get things rolling.

I understand that you are making changes to the way walkers function in MM and it's not going to be a carbon copy of the old games. It will be interesting to see what you have come up with.

arcan
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: France

Postby arcan » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:25 am

"Keith" wrote:That poor ol' market lady does seem to catch most of the flak. :)

Other walkers were problematic but the ML has always been #1 on everyone's complaint list at some point.

Players unfamiliar with her "whims and ways" would hang on the edge of their seats in anticipation, as she emerged from the market, and then scream in disbelief as she promptly turned "the wrong way." :)

Once one learned how to "tame the shrew", her quirks weren't so bothersome. (Hmmm..."Taming of the Shrew" sounds like a good title for a scenario! :D )

I guess she was the most notable because with/without her it seemed like housing would evolve and devolve noticeably as she passed or failed to pass. And in the early stages of building housing areas she was one of the most important walkers to get things rolling.

I understand that you are making changes to the way walkers function in MM and it's not going to be a carbon copy of the old games. It will be interesting to see what you have come up with.

i agree. I had most of the problems with her, because either houses would not evolve or complete houses would devolve to their first stage. Whereas with other walkers, they would devolve just a little (or crumble but then just had to put a lot of engineers everywhere)

Czech Centurian
Posts: 458
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: South Africa

Postby Czech Centurian » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:37 pm

I don't mind the market ladies. :)

Caesar Clifford
Posts: 975
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:17 am
Location: Kiwiland
Contact:

Postby Caesar Clifford » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:21 pm

"Czech Centurian" wrote:I don't mind the market ladies. :)


I loved them - made c3 so much more interesting.

PantherX
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:00 am
Location: The Beautiful Monterey Bay California

Postby PantherX » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:48 am

So far it seems that all CB games have struggled with this topic. I usually am able to figure out whats needed to maximize my output. For me it's just another aspect of figuring out the most efficient way to play.

The only one that ever really got me was Emperor because the "market cart" would go one way 3 times and then go the other 1x. Every time your houses missed they devolved. When they devolved they changed sizes and sometimes would wander around when they evolved back up which caused another house to be cramped. I finally had to lose 2 houses from my block to make it work.

It seems like both systems are workable but a hybrid system would probably be best. The flood fill idea from C4 was a nice way to accurately judge what was working or what was not.
:cool:


Return to “Gameplay Suggestions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests