Trade

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Caesar Clifford
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Trade

Postby Caesar Clifford » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:00 pm

Trade, trade and more trade.

I love trading in CB games - I hope there is lots and lots of trading in MM. People in those days did way more trading than many people realise.

I hope there are many different trade routes and trade goods avaliable.

In fact trading is probably my favourite part of CB games. Trying to maximise all the posible trade opportunites and maximse profit - fascinating.

Did i mention that I love trading ?

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Jeff Fiske
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Trade

Postby Jeff Fiske » Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:43 pm

Do you like it when trade routes open and close signifying political changes in the landscape?

Do you like it when trade routes change based on your financial investment, and the personalities? IE- trade more with someone and they trade with you more, but trade with a nation and it might be a fixed amount?

What about trade for FAME/PRESTIGE, IE- Sending goods to meet some demand?

Thoughts?

Caesar Clifford
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Postby Caesar Clifford » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:02 pm

Yes I don't mind trade routes opening and closing because thats realistic as long as its not to many in a game [ but would love if you could put that option into the editor as it would make contests much more interesting ]. And as long as its not something that can stop you from completing the CC or WC for a scenario. But cetainly some opening and closing makes it more interesting.[ or fustrating which is a great part of CB games ].

Yes it can be good to have the numbers of trade goods change during a scenario - up or down are both interesting and enjoyable.

Sending goods for FAME - I'm guessing is something like Caesars requests - Yes a great part of CB games. Things like having to meet requests within a certain time is always fun.

mad_genius
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Postby mad_genius » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:39 pm

Trading is one of the most enjoyable (and some times challenging as well) parts of a CB game. I absolutetly love it.

Having the trade networks change dinamically based on campaign events (political and/or military changes, plague, famine, storyline triggered changes, etc.) is absolute fantastic if done in a well balanced way.

It's a great ideia to have other cities changing their trading conditions based on how you deal with them. Considering the medieval time was a time when the world was constantly changing it seems plausible to assume that trading routes had to keep adapting to the changes, thus creating a more dynamic world map that the ones we've seen in the old impressions games.

I think its also plausible to assume that trade was vital to any medieval city since it would be dificult for any medieval city to have nearby all the resources and raw materials necessary to satisfying the city's needs just relying only on local production and industry.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I assume that it would be normal for any medieval city to have to import some products that it couldn't produce locally.
The same way, I think that Medieval Mayor should also through this constraints and challenges to the player.
You want to evolve a group of houses to a certain level but those houses need a certain product that you can't produce locally, and so you have to search for a trading partner that sells that product to you while also having to secure some export in order not to go into debt.

It would be cool also if there were some products that were only available trough trade like silk or other products from the orient and middle east. Although I don't know if medieval cities in western and central europe and access to trade routes from the east (like the silk road).
You could even have a scenario where your city stands at a "border" with the silk road and you have some eastern trade routes that sell large quantities of silk and some cities to your west that by smaller quantities. It would give you that historical feeling of being a strategic city functioning as a trade hub, bringing eastern products to medieval europe and also sending european products the other way around.

Just my 0.02 cents on this subject.

Keith
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Postby Keith » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:35 pm

I can't say that I'm a big fan of trade routes closing, but I don't mind as long as it not taken to extremes. However, it does add some challenge to the game.

Trade routes that close or open because I might be trading with some other specific city would be interesting. This was a theme used back in Pharaoh when trading with the wrong faction would close down trade with the opposition while opening new possibilities with other cities. This seems to be along the lines of "changing personalities" Jeff mentioned above.

Periodic closing of trade routes is another interesting type. They would periodically have to be re-opened. This could be tied to the amount of trade being done.

For example, if you fail to buy or sell enough from or to "city B" during a specific period of time they might choose to close down the trade route because the trade was too one-sided. The route could be reopened once again if the criteria to do was was met once again.

If there is going to be online play connected with this game, cities grouped in the same region should all be affected by local conditions, such as a flood, famine, drought, pestillence, snow, etc. These all could be triggers used for closing trade routes to that affected group of cities all in the same local region. It could even be used as an excuse to close routes in the one-player portion of the game.

I'm not sure I agree with trading for "fame/prestige". It doesn't seem to be the sort of thing that trade would garner. "Fame/prestige" comes more from deeds and accomplishments rather than simply trading.

Sending goods to meet a demand or request, i.e. Caesar IV, seems acceptable. I don't consider this "trade" in the purest sense, however. Sending troops to meet a demand or request from Caesar in Caesar IV was never considered "trading" in my book.
Last edited by Keith on Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Caesar Clifford
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Postby Caesar Clifford » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:11 am

There has always been trade for several thousand years. The Romans were great traders as were the peoples who came after them. I think you could probably trade for anything if you have enough money or goods to trade. You could have a scenario where someone has to get enough money in order to import some priceless good to win the scenario. There are so many possibilites.

Nighteyes
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Postby Nighteyes » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:18 am

"Jeff Fiske" wrote:Do you like it when trade routes open and close signifying political changes in the landscape?

Do you like it when trade routes change based on your financial investment, and the personalities? IE- trade more with someone and they trade with you more, but trade with a nation and it might be a fixed amount?

What about trade for FAME/PRESTIGE, IE- Sending goods to meet some demand?

Thoughts?


Personaly I like all the options as long as they are in approriate situations. For example, if you engage in a barter operation with a friendly city they should trade more as you trade more.
Also if you are under the protection of a lord or baron etc, they should expect, and get, some measure of tax from your city/town, be that in goods or money, similar Caesar or Pharaoh's Pharaonic Demands but make it dependent on a formula looking at things like your population, GDP (or similar), and stocks of goods.
Lastly, I think that as long as you can reverse your trade personality (hard work to do so is fine) I think that it could work well as well, allowing you do chose a particular lord as a protector and joining that nation would work well as a mision or campaign I think.

mad_genius
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Postby mad_genius » Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:05 pm

Just adding one more ideia to this discussion.

How about having some trade routes where instead of products being bought and sold for money, they would be exchanged for other products.

For example, a trade route with a city located in the middle east could have that city buy pottery with money and exchange 1 unit of spices for each unit of furniture up to a maximum amount per year. Instead of paying the furniture with money, the traders would pay with spices.

That would offer a cool mix of money based trade with some products based trade to offer some more variety to the player.

Apart from this, I put here a link to a website I found that has some information about trade in the middle ages. It may provide some more research material to the developers and forumers.
http://www.middle-ages.org.uk/middle-ages-trade-commerce.htm
Last edited by mad_genius on Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

Caesar Clifford
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Postby Caesar Clifford » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:47 am

http://http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Wrench_Recon/Wrench_Recon_21.html

This is a fascinating chapter about the arabs in Spain from 711-1400AD - its very impressive.

An excample is this
Of their other arts, Mr. Scott writes with a fervour no less inspired by their adequacy than it is by the adequacy of the cultivation of the soil. He describes the organization of the traffic of commerce by land and by sea; the markets and fairs; the principles of equitable dealing in business transactions and in dealing with other nations, as laid down by Islamic law; the ports and the great centres of manufacturing and mercantile activity situated on the Mediterranean Sea; the silk factories and the factories of iron and copper utensils of Almeria; the potteries of Andalusia; the leather work of Cordova, the capital; the silks of Seville; the paper of Xativa; the steel of Toledo; the textile fabrics of Lusitania and Andalusia; the glass-work at Almeria, which was the teacher of later glass-work in Venice; the jewellers of Granada; the mats and basket work of Alicante; the mills of Murcia and Saragossa; the linens of Salamanca; the musical instruments of Seville; and the wines, the use of which scandalized the orthodox Moslem, to whom intoxicants of any kind were forbidden.
Last edited by Caesar Clifford on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

arcan
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Postby arcan » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:15 pm

I do like evoluting trade routes. It allows a slow start and increasing trade as the city develops. Not just building trade right at the begining to make a lot of money without developing the reste of the city...

PhilL
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Postby PhilL » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:21 pm

I like the idea of trading item for item no money involved. this could open the oppertunity to produce X trade it for Y with one settlement then trade Y for Z with another settlement.

I dont mind trade routes opening or closing based on oytside events such as drought, change in political status, etc,
but would not like if the closing of a trade route prevented me from completing the core requirements of a mission,
I would like to see the maintaining or opening of a dificult trade route increase my "score" for a mission. This could provide a level of replayability to certain missions.

Alrope
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Postby Alrope » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:04 pm

"Jeff Fiske" wrote:Do you like it when trade routes open and close signifying political changes in the landscape?


I would like that, or even if because of that the routes need to be bigger and take more time between one shipping and another.
But, as PhiL already said, if it was needed those products to completing the core requirements of a mission. It could be frustrating if not well balanced.

"Jeff Fiske" wrote:Do you like it when trade routes change based on your financial investment, and the personalities? IE- trade more with someone and they trade with you more, but trade with a nation and it might be a fixed amount?

It could be interesting, it could lead to picking sides as between leagues of merchants or anything like that. Buying more from X annoys Y and reduce his will to trade with you.

"Jeff Fiske" wrote:What about trade for FAME/PRESTIGE, IE- Sending goods to meet some demand?

I´d like the return o prestige system from Caesar, could be with the King or the Pope or the Hanseatic League or whatever you wants to... Apart from the name calling every time Caesar was requesting something... it was very fun... :D

In the open/close routes matter, it could be needed send some guards to protect the route also. I remember of seen a feature like this in the "Trade Empires", it could be a role to the Town´s soldiers not related to war...

Malkael
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Postby Malkael » Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:55 am

Do you like it when trade routes open and close signifying political changes in the landscape?

Yes I do. Personally I feel that as long as it does not stop your ability to complete the scenario and the change is not just suddenly sprung on the player it could add much to the game. Preferably the player should have at least one warning to notify them that the political and economic landscape of the scenario is about to change. Otherwise players might get a bit frustrated about circumstances beyond their control turning their games upside down without any warning and explanation as to why. For example, let us imagine the Kingdoms of England and France go to war restricting trade between the two if you are playing as an English or French city. Rather then springing the surprise on the player personally I would think about giving the player one or several messages hinting or warning towards a likely war between the two Kingdoms; giving the player time to prepare, begin planning for, and understand the situation.

Do you like it when trade routes change based on your financial investment, and the personalities? IE- trade more with someone and they trade with you more, but trade with a nation and it might be a fixed amount?

Depends on the situation, but theoretically yes I do. For example, I would agree that trading with a rival trading league should probably decrease the Hanseatic League's opinion and willingness to trade with you, as you are effectively a competitor to them now.

What about trade for FAME/PRESTIGE, IE- Sending goods to meet some demand?

What would a Feudal Society be without your liege demanding things of you, so that is a grudging "Yes".

Considering the time period I hope we may be able to open trading relationships with entities other then cities. For example, the isolated and self-sufficient monasteries of the Cistercians often swapped their homegrown produce, such as wool, with outside traders to acquire goods which they could not produce at the monastery. Many Cistercian monasteries actually grew quite wealthy due to the wool trade, understandably that kind of came to an end in England under Henry the VIII's rule due to the reformation of the church.

Personally I would like to see at least one mission where your overall objective is trade focused. Maybe your goal is to become a prosperous dominant trade center like Venice, or perhaps the King is going to war and his army requires provisions for the campaign so your goal is to make a profit supplying (trading) them the goods they need. You could even reverse the roles, your Liege is holding a great feast or festival and you are in charge of gathering all the goods he needs, some of them being quite exotic and costly to import. Push our abilities to the limit through a variety of different scenario structures and goals. You have proven your ability to build a grand city brimming with culture, but can you successfully manage a growing city while importing all the expensive goods your liege wants for his grand feast.
Last edited by Malkael on Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:03 am, edited 4 times in total.

JaAchan daVariso
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Postby JaAchan daVariso » Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:46 am

"Malkael" wrote:What would a Feudal Society be without your liege demanding things of you, so that is a grudging "Yes".

Perhaps, like in Emperor, on occasion we could demand goods from other cities? In MM, cities that are under our reign / protection?

velociraptor2000
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Postby velociraptor2000 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:49 pm

I would also like to trade for goods that we can't get anywhere else / nor producing (Pharaoh Luxury Goods anyone?)... and more than one or two... and if it's possible each with their own graphics.


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