Useless, or just underrated?

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Josh
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Useless, or just underrated?

Postby Josh » Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:02 am

I noticed in this game, there are a few buildings I almost never use, or if i use its rather infrequent.

Shipwrights, unless I have a river to cross, my nobles never seem to get too woried about not having a yaht so i dont build them.

Gardeners: to be honest I forgot about gardeners for a while... and I didnt notice. (what does that say)

Scribes; a convenient source of extra income, but I usualy have a great surplus of food anyways, Im not often hurting for the extra few hundred grain it can get me a year.

Mortuarys; I have never built one. Nobody ever seemed to complain.

Temples and cult temples; I build these sometimes for athetic purposes, but if im going for an efficient victory I keep to shrines.

Merchant centers; (See: scribes.)

Exchanges... I dont often see the need. Unless the world level is set up specificly for their use.

Guard posts: Im not a fan of the military senarios, but even in a lot of them I havent used them.. Sometimes I put them in my monument district for cool photos. but on a practical value I havent often seen raiders.

Granarys: I have used these just for the sheer joy of having so many thousand food in storage; But for practical value I build more bakerys.

Roads: :o If I'm not building a city for asthetic reasons, I just sort of skip them oftne.

Decorations: I use these, I love them but do you?

And the biggest one: Stele. I have never built one except for this day, when I played mennefer and oblisks werent an option.

Am I terribly wrong and some of these buildings are of vital importance in your city building? Or are my suspicions correct that a few of the games units dont fit tight enough into the games system.

I'm the first one to say the developers made a lot of great decisions, but would it be incorrect to say that if units in the game are much less than vital to the point that you can build rich prosperous citys prefectly fine without them they are broken to some extent?

m1970c
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Postby m1970c » Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:08 am

Im a newb to cotn (started tutorials last night) but already i can see whats the point of paths/roads ?

MAX-1
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Postby MAX-1 » Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:43 am

To be honest Josh,

I don't understand how someone can amass enough food through 10 farmers of the palace, when fully evolved, to feed and pay for your government workers. Scribes are essential! They will yield you ten fold in food.

Your nobels cannot fully evolve without a gardener.

Merchant centers are just that. A central place designated for merchants to sell thier wares. Otherwise, they just plop down where ever they like.

Shipwrights are needed if you want barges to haul, yes if you need to cross the river. And as for yachts, in time, your nobels do want to go yachting along with hunting. Nobels will eventually want more and better of everything.

Elites will complain if no mortuary, although one can get by without one, the nobels will still want access to one.

Graineries are great once you have the essential bakeries in place, up and running full, to handle the excess food taxed by your scribes. Also, they are essential for your peeps during lean times, like two failed floods in a row can wipe out all food supplies.

As far as stele go, thats a presige aspect to the game. Some people prefeer obelisks, others stele.

Roads are essential for many people for city planning and asthetics, same for the decorations.

Guard posts are essential if you want any city guards to patroll your city.

The exchange is great in maps that you are mineing metals or jewls on because they tend to be on the outskirts of the map. The exchange, when manned by a scribe and if placed near shops that use the resources being mined, is a quick way for those shopkeepers to get those resources without spending all day traveling across the map to pick it out of the drop point.

And as far as religion goes, one can get by with just shrines, however shrines alone will not quell your peeps from needing a cult temple.

IMO, the designers put a lot of thought into the play aspect of the game. Many CB want to do a city quick and clean while others like to dress thier city up. Why be forced into or penalized for not useing certain aspects of the game. As in roads, in older CB games, you had to have roads or nothing moved in your city. In COTN, you don't need roads to move stuff around. Also, in older CB you had to have the right mix of cultural, civic, and religous stuffs to even be successfull. Thus bean counters. In COTN, you can have more or less of stuff, like religion, and not be penalized or have to compensate in another aspect to create ballance.

MarkDuffy
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Postby MarkDuffy » Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:18 am

Well, Josh, not using Scribes is kinda amazing.

However, I can't say "Whatever floats yer boat" cuz you don't build them...

Also, I was helping a poster with his game in Hensen-Nesu & it is a Stele-only city. Nekhen & Bubastis are also Stele-only. That is three outta six cities I'm familiar with.

Max, you do not need a Gardener to fully evolve townhouses (at least at normal difficulty).

Personally, I go down the list to make sure I place at least one of everything.

We need more "useless" buildings in COTN! :D
Last edited by MarkDuffy on Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Josh
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Postby Josh » Fri Feb 11, 2005 10:56 am

I don't understand how someone can amass enough food through 10 farmers of the palace, when fully evolved, to feed and pay for your government workers. Scribes are essential! They will yield you ten fold in food.

I dont just have ten farmers from the palace, I have 40 nobles and 250 farmers and no scribes; yet food is no problem and never was in my city.

Your nobels cannot fully evolve without a gardener.

Yup, yes they can. every nobel I have is fully evolved.

in time, your nobels do want to go yachting along with hunting. Nobels will eventually want more and better of everything.

Every now and then I see a nobel complain "No yacting" but its so infrequent it certainly isnt a need I need to spend 15 imported wood on and deffinately doesnt keep them from becoming fully evolved. Its cool if you can get a snapshot of some nobels in boats, but it seems like catering to these needs holds no other benefit.

Elites will complain if no mortuary, although one can get by without one, the nobels will still want access to one.

Same problem, they might want access.. but does Anything bad happen if you dont? Nope not a thing.

Roads are essential for many people for city planning and asthetics, same for the decorations.

"essential" and "asthetic" really dont belong side by side, And I said "If I'm not building a city for asthetic reasons, I skip them"


As far as your final paragraph, Yes I agree in the points you made. But It seems a little absurd that you can play the game with half the buildings unused and still have everything functioning fine with every noble household fully evolved.

Maybe there needs to be additional levels of noble upgrades, or make the gradient to fully upgraded harder to climb. See I bring this up because i Want To see these buildings be used, and have a purpose and some real benefit to adding them to the workforce. But as it stands I never think "why arent my nobels evolving?.... Oh right I forgot to build a gardener!

Or remember in the CB's when you wanted to get your housing to upgrade to the highest levels, it took something expencive like wine and oils that you had to import; Why isnt a cedar yacht and foreign goods simmilar?

MarkDuffy
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Postby MarkDuffy » Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:10 am

Josh wrote:I dont just have ten farmers from the palace, I have 40 nobles and 250 farmers and no scribes; yet food is no problem and never was in my city.


That outta do it! :D

And don't get me started on what the game needs. I'm just happy to get another CB game. I am not a COTN cultist in ANY way...

vic_4
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Postby vic_4 » Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:53 pm

I think you can live without any of the building you have described, but it gives some kind of problems. I have got many times trouble for need of mortuary, you need a shipwright to build war ships, You can avoid use of scribes but you need lot of nobles, merchant center is useful to have merchants in the best position and I love granaries: you don't need villagers to have them working, they can be built far from the center so they don't clutter your town and they replenish bakeries three times each year. So to have a well balanced city you need them. COTN is very forgiving about problems, but if you want efficient you need most of the buildings.

MarkDuffy
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Postby MarkDuffy » Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:52 pm

By the way, Josh, you taught me something here, about bakeries that I SHOULD have already known.

See this correction post by me:

http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=50314&postcount=10

Thankx!

Cadfan
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Postby Cadfan » Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:48 pm

All of these units do at least something useful. However, this game is designed so that your city can accept a certain degree of inefficiency, so none of them are absolutely necessary. There are also a few places where I think you get an advantage from something, but I haven't yet been able to verify.

Shipwrights- Yachts make nobles happier. On their own, its not enough to matter, but combined with other effects (hunting, mortuary access, court access) you can add up to enough unhappiness to get protesting nobles, who then don't shop as much, etc, etc. You can, of course, deal with a certain amount of unhappiness and protesting without meaningful problems.

Gardeners- I'm pretty sure that once your nobles have their own orchard, the health affects from lack of beer stop bothering them. Less trips to the apothecary means more time for shopping and so forth.

Mortuary- Same as shipwrights, near as I can tell. Shipwrights, Gardeners, Courts, and Mortuaries, all together, add up to a meaningful effect on your nobles ability to get stuff done and profit, which in turn has a trickle down effect on the rest of your economy.

Temple/Cult Center- One cult center and 2 shrines is enough to get rid of enough religion unhappiness that you can effectively ignore religion from that point out. The reduction in unhappiness from the cult center is absolutely huge, because people can get partial satisfaction out of worshipping any god there.

Merchant Center- Keeps merchants in one place, which saves your nobles time from having to hunt them down to shop for things. Also useful if you are collecting tariffs, as it saves your scribe time.

Exchange- Saves traders coming to your city from having to travel everywhere to get stuff, and saves your lux shopkeepers from having to do the same if you've got far away mining camps. This is ignorable in small cities, but very useful if you're going for a megatropolis where resources are far flung.

Guard Post- Only if you need guards to keep raiders out, in which case, its very useful. A lot of the missions that come with the game are designed such that its really easy to just ignore the raiders until it becomes time to attack them and wipe them out, but I can easily see designing levels where this is not the case.

Granary- Stores a ton of food and doesn't add a hungry mouth. I tend to build a lot of these so that in years when the flood fails, I can release food to the masses. You could probably get by without them in most games, but in that odd game where your flood fails three years in a row, they're nice to have.

Scribes-
Tax Scribes- increase the percent of the harvest you get. Also decreases the percent that your farmers and nobles get. You could certainly avoid using these by simply having tons and tons of farmers, but in some games that may not be practical- you may be limited in villagers, time, or space.
Tariff Scribes- I used to think these were useless, until I realized that you collect tariffs even in years where the flood fails. Collecting an extra 500 food per year may seem small compared to a harvest yield of 4000, but on the failed flood year where your harvest is only 50 units of food, it can be very appreciated.

A lot of these buildings make your city more efficient- but your city doesn't have to be perfectly efficient to survive. Its all a question of how you want to beat the scenario.

PS- I haven't yet worked out this, but I'm curious- your nobles pay yearly maintenance on mastabas (and yachts?), according to the manual and guide. Do they actually literally pay this, and if so, does it go to the pharoah? If so, that's an added reason for the yachts.

MarkDuffy
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Postby MarkDuffy » Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:52 pm

Josh, you forgot something...

Walls

Jacquou Le
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Postby Jacquou Le » Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:59 am

MarkDuffy wrote:Josh, you forgot something...

Walls
Wall is a great thing in the game to slow down the invasion of raiders. That spares enough time for city guards, or other types of soldier to get to the "city gate" if a barrack built next to it. That's very effective way to fight raiders. But walls sometimes makes your ppl get longer distance to reach desired destinations on the map.

Another advantage of wall is to keep your Bricklayers and Brickmakers get busy :p

MarkDuffy
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Postby MarkDuffy » Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:52 am

Jacquou Le wrote:Wall is a great thing in the game to slow down the invasion of raiders.


Shirley you jest !?!?! You call that an invasion?

Another advantage of wall is to keep your Bricklayers and Brickmakers get busy :p


lol

I use large mastabas to keep em busy...

Jacquou Le
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Postby Jacquou Le » Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:36 am

MarkDuffy wrote:Shirley you jest !?!?! You call that an invasion?
Yup, I called that invasion, anyone enters my city is to be called invasion, even traders, I call... economy invasion :p

I want my CotNians only use goods/foods marked with Made in My City LOL :D

Josh
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Postby Josh » Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:49 am

I love walls for decoration around mastaba complexes... but invasions? meh no big deal.

vic_4
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Postby vic_4 » Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:41 pm

Invasion is something which can be worked on for expansion: they are not really a big deal and military is something I believe Pharaoh should have more control over. Usually pharaoh could command directly soldiers.

imhotep3147
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Postby imhotep3147 » Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:08 pm

How do you get by without having a mortuary in the event of a Pharaoh death? I realize it's not exactly "necessary" to have one but ...... well, what do you do just shuck the ole' man in a tomb with no pomp and circumstance? :eek: That's not fitting for a "half man, half god" :D

MarkDuffy
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Postby MarkDuffy » Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:20 pm

imhotep3147 wrote:How do you get by without having a mortuary in the event of a Pharaoh death? I realize it's not exactly "necessary" to have one but ...... well, what do you do just shuck the ole' man in a tomb with no pomp and circumstance? :eek: That's not fitting for a "half man, half god" :D


Personally, it depends on whether or not the Pharaoh died quickly.

If so, save the cost of the tomb also & the death-hit to prestige by building another obelisk & just stick him on the back of one of those stuck donkeys & let them both suffer! :D

but...

You miss this!:
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Last edited by MarkDuffy on Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Grumpus
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Postby Grumpus » Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:42 pm

City Guards - I have played every city in the campaign at hard difficulty, and have yet to use city guards. I have the feeling (dunno for sure) that the resources needed to do so can be better used in improving services.

Yachts - I never build shipwrights unless it is required. I just don't like to export food to get the needed cedar.

Gardiners - Always include these. They're cheap!

Cult Temple - Love them! They are the centerpiece of all my cities.

Scribes - I almost always use these. I build fairly small cities, and generally need the added food income.

Merchant centers - I like to include one of these as the center of my shopping area. Except for Men-nefer the income isn't all that much, but I like the way it looks.

Granaries - I use these a lot. they're cheap, don't require any upkeep, and are a good way to store a lot of stuff.

Mortuary - I usually build one of these as they are cheap and don't require upkeep. At the beginning of the game I have no prestige anyhow, so I'm in no hurry to build tombs or mortuaries. If Pharaoh croaks during this period, I just chuck him in the dumpster and get on with it.

Exchange - I've never been able to make much use of these. Given the choice, I would rather import an item rather than setting up a labor camp to mine or quarry it. so I rarely run across situations in which they would be useful.
Last edited by Grumpus on Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

vic_4
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Postby vic_4 » Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:13 am

Mostly when I mine it is for export, so I don't care where the material is dumped. Merchants will take care wherever it is, so I never use exchange.

NobleSeth
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Postby NobleSeth » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:49 am

very funny post I laughed a lot :D

and did josh also forgot Piramids?


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